S3.E12. Repairing Rupture for Avoidant & Anxious Attachment Types
Elizabeth Gillette teaches courses that help people feel grounded, healthy, and whole in their relationships—because how you experience relationships impacts everything else.
She is an attachment specialist, author, therapist, mother, and partner, and she lives for seeing people changing their relational patterns, experiencing true connection, and being the ones to do things DIFFERENTLY in their families.
https://www.elizabethgillette.com/
This episode is Part II of our conversations with Elizabeth. Part I is here.
Elizabeth’s resources:
Rupture and repair bundle on my website: https://www.heirloomcounseling.com/repair
Transcript:
keywords: feel, people, parenting, avoidant, attachment styles, elizabeth, talk, good, repair, relationship, moment, person, therapist, relational, moving, dismissive, hard, thinking, conversations, energy
Alison Cebulla 0:00
Having that energy of telling kids that they're bad, feels bad to me in my body. I don't feel good now that I did that. Yeah. And I'm also not getting the thing that I want.
Anne Sherry 0:11
Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 0:14
Well, and gosh, Allison, as I hear you say that I'm like, don't we also do that in our adult relationships? I mean, session that we're having, right. It's like, You're bad. You're avoidant, what is wrong with you, you need to fix it. Go do whatever you need to do and I'm over here going like this, it's making it worse. You're making awareness. You know, like, that's, it's the same thing but this is what we grow up with. And this is how we're learning to be with each other.
Alison Cebulla 0:51
Welcome to latchkey versions and friends, the podcast that is Healing Trauma with humor of latchkey
Anne Sherry 0:56
kids was a term invented in the 1970s. About kids left home alone at young ages to fend for themselves.
Alison Cebulla 1:02
The downstream impact of a whole generation of unpatented kids is a society in which we struggle to care about each other.
Anne Sherry 1:07
I'm one of your hosts and Sherry, a therapist. I'm an urchin because emotional and physical self care are just not instinctual.
Alison Cebulla 1:15
I'm your other host Alison Zabiullah, a trauma science educator. I'm an urgent because I have a prickly exterior that keeps people at a distance
Anne Sherry 1:23
Join us as we muddle through the healing journey in search of connection compassion and acceptance interviewing experts and people with lived experience each episode
Alison Cebulla 1:42
and
Anne Sherry 1:44
I mean, bonjour Allah. Allah, Allah song. Como se Ma. Now am I speaking French? Or well, I'm not speaking French or Spanish. You sound strange. Okay.
random phrases I remember from fourth grade. Okay.
Alison Cebulla 2:10
Did you take French in fourth grade?
Anne Sherry 2:12
I fucking did if I just stuck with it. Do crazy. You sound great. And Spartanburg, South Carolina. That's crazy. Pine Street, elementary school. French in fourth grade fourth through sixth grade. No, it
Alison Cebulla 2:24
kind of doesn't make sense. I know. Don't understand. I
Anne Sherry 2:27
took Latin in seventh and eighth grade. Yeah, I get that in two days. Yeah, yeah. That's private school education. Basically, I was educated in a private school. Seven days were okay. All right.
Alison Cebulla 2:43
Joining from Paris. Hi, everyone.
Anne Sherry 2:48
I'm still here in Asheville, North Carolina. I'm not leaving Buncombe County. Traveling days are
Alison Cebulla 2:56
over. I'm gonna join you though. I am going to join you. Okay.
Anne Sherry 2:59
Yes, cuz you're farmers here. Go take your train travels
Alison Cebulla 3:05
all around Europe. And then we're gonna make
Anne Sherry 3:09
we're gonna make a movie of it. Okay. Oh, it's all the wrong. It's not even around calm. Special. Yeah, Hallmark special. Not the PCP one where the kids jumped off buildings. Right. That one. Don't do PCP Angel Dust do Angel.
Alison Cebulla 3:27
PCP Angel Dust. Yeah, folks. Yes. One jump out of a way. Oh,
Anne Sherry 3:32
yeah. From the 80s. Just say no. Was that 70s or 80s? Okay, nice. So that's coming up. Yeah. This is no Yeah, hours. Okay. So
Alison Cebulla 3:43
stay on topic. We could do this. We can. We loved talking with Elizabeth Gillette so frickin much that we just didn't want to stop. I still actually feel like I don't want to stop. Like I basically told her when we talked last time, I was like, we're friends now. Like, whether I want to or not, would
Anne Sherry 4:05
just be like, buy my course. That would be an appropriate attachment.
Everybody wants to be my friend. I know. Because she's so atashi Yes.
She knows her stuff. She's Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, we talked about Repair, repair hunting. Yeah, I mean, she had told us we were tip of the iceberg. And we're like, come back. Let's see what's on. I feel
Alison Cebulla 4:30
like we could talk for like 17 more hours.
Anne Sherry 4:34
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's kind of everything like being safe in the world attached. That's that's sort of been a theme this season. There's been a lot about attachment and remember starting with Heidi like how do we make our nervous system isn't safe. You don't feel safe and your nervous system or your body or your energy or whatever. You do all kinds of stuff to mitigate that and it's an it's a admirable, but it's often not a
Alison Cebulla 5:02
great experience in my job grief support group, which the new my new cohort cohort, the fourth cohort just started today, and I love everyone in the group so much. If any of you are listening, I love you guys. But, um, I have a session where I do like a knighting session, and everyone gets knighted as worthy. Like I deem you all worthy.
Anne Sherry 5:26
Wow. That's so good. So almost, I would say 99.9% of my counseling practice where we just dig and deep down, down down, it's like it's a worth issue. It's a worth issue every time. Yeah, because that's connected to shame. There's no substitute for feeling your way through though. Like, if it's entrenched in there that you don't have worth. So it's so shameful to even look at it. Yeah. And that, I mean, yeah, Elizabeth's episode around repair, like how hard it can be because it just reminded
Alison Cebulla 5:59
me. Yeah, after we interviewed her, I like had a mini. I did have a mini melt. Mini melt. Okay, yeah, I had to text Amelia and just be like, wow, like, I am feeling so much. Grief. Right. Like when you heal and you learn better, and you talk to amazing people like Elizabeth rave, you take her course or whatever. And you realize how many mistakes you've made in the past. And that really hurts. And so I had a little mini mini meltdown after we talked to her about, like, just a huge wave of grief came up like, I really wish I would have made some better decisions, but I didn't know how.
Anne Sherry 6:42
Yeah, yeah. Well, was it Michelle Obama that said it when you know better or Oprah when it gets famous when you know, it's Yeah, and I would say when you feel better you when you feel it, it's Maya Angelou isn't better. Maya Angelou. Okay. Isn't it? Some amazing person? Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, if we get stuck, I talked about this as part of a repair piece to just studying with a mentor of mine. And I just really have helped hold clients to this because when you are in the weeds of well, you did this and you said this. And like, if you're AutoP seeing the whole thing over and over and over again, you're totally lost. You're not in the present moment. Can we heal now? I mean, I'm not saying stuff. How's that? I mean, we may need to do a pass over that. But at some point, we say, well, we're okay. Let's just own it and accept it. And all fucked up. Yeah, and move the fuck on. Right? Or be present on it. How do we want to move forward now? Right?
Alison Cebulla 7:49
That was a huge, huge epiphany that I was working on with my last therapist that I've talked about how I finally feel sane. The thing was like I was so avoidant, and cut off from feeling Yeah, that with my first really good therapist that I had in Austin, Texas in 2016, she really helped me open all that up and feel. Yeah, but then I was like, dwelling too much because I was worried about that. I would like go back to the way it was. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 8:18
yeah. There's the anxiety the worry I have fear that I could do it again, or something other than trusting Yeah, but it takes a while to develop these things. I mean, I had a little 39 years Yeah, yeah. So something with I think Tom would mind me sharing this it's really not about him as much but it was we had it was just he's really coming to terms with and lots of people are just sensory stuff or how overwhelmed and no doubt it's because there was a lot of overwhelm in childhood and they just you know, in the healing process is like, you know, it's coming out I don't know we get older our protectors are like, dude, I'm out. You just got to feel this shit. So I don't know You know, we live small and we're moving into our bigger bigger place but that has to are on our nervous system. A half we will have a guest room for people. I'm coming. Okay, yes, come get your farmer. And August was losing his shit and then Tom lost his shit. You know? Like just you know, just to total overwhelm Yeah, and I been up since 515 meditating and shit so I was calm as fuck for a while. I know Yep, totally. And then I wasn't like really? Oh the window of tolerance but what what I came to later after doing how ad safe and sound protocol group I came to an awareness just before I went into our last session there. I was like, oh, August got all the connection, attention and homme was pushed out, but it really was his little kid energy that got overwhelmed. And I was like, you need to you need to leave, you need to get out, it's too much in here. And then I had all the sadness come up, because I was like, wait a minute, I want how I want to do and this sort of came from Elizabeth to is like this repair piece of like, I really wish I would have moved towards you and said, My goodness, you must be so overwhelmed. Because no way in the world would you want to, like do that, you know, like, Yo, and then August has so much security that he's like, okay, I'm good. You know, there's something there. But I was like, God bless that piece of going towards your partner when a big something happens. And I had enough internal connection in that moment, or whatever it was to not, but I was like, get out. You know, but that may have been how often do we hear that? Yeah, for sure. And then it's like it's close. It feels like closing the loop. Like, just come back. Don't leave these things open. Oh, sure. She had. Yeah, you
Alison Cebulla 11:04
brought it back in? You brought it back did see you did it? I
Anne Sherry 11:08
did after? I did. Yeah. That's why we can really lose with this quality of closing the loop on that, you know, and being having that awareness. So it's not sort of left out there. Like when you get overwhelmed get the book away from us is sort of the message that apart might be getting. Yes. And he does need to work on we need to like look, you know, he is working on overwhelm and what Yeah, contributes to it. Like we got some headphones for Christmas. Since free headphones, and August was like dad, put your headphones on. He's like everybody gets century headphones. I think you need them in the modern
Alison Cebulla 11:44
world. To my yes to my Yeah, so it is well thanks for that example. And because that's exactly you may not do it perfect in the moment, but as long as you can repair and but closing the loop. So it's not just five by upon five upon five. That's
Anne Sherry 12:00
right. That's right, plotting.
Alison Cebulla 12:02
If you
Anne Sherry 12:03
think yo, I'm applauding me to it, they say do a u turn which is come back into your own system, get it back in alignment before you return. I don't know why everything has to rhyme and these littles things, but they do you have to remember it and it does. I wouldn't I don't think I'd remember if it's like come back into your own experience and then check in with the person that may have been harmed. That's not as catchy.
Alison Cebulla 12:27
No, it's turned out there's no it's already out of my brain. Yeah, you turn return what Okay,
Anne Sherry 12:33
kidding me not doing it. Yeah. Okay, so awesome.
Alison Cebulla 12:38
I will I have Khoisan.
I hope you all our conversation part two with Elizabeth as much as we did. But you know, damn well. No. Keep telling you
Anne Sherry 13:12
because, you know, damn well. Alison Lizbeth. We're back. We're doing a part two. This our first part two. We should do more part twos. Because how many times do we say yeah. Oh, my God. I could talk forever. I could just say on this podcast forever. Every time pretty much every time so we'd have some party every time thing one thing too. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 13:40
I love that. I'm so honored. Thank you back with Elizabeth. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 13:44
Welcome back, Elizabeth.
Anne Sherry 13:46
Apparently we just got to tip of the iceberg last time. Let's talk even though Alison and I were like, Okay, that's it. And we're avoidant attachment. So we're like, okay, okay.
We're like full gotta go. Gotta run. Not feeling that
Alison Cebulla 14:00
was enough feelings. That was enough feeling
Elizabeth Gillette 14:04
getting started.
Anne Sherry 14:05
Let me attach. Where'd they go? Yeah. So we, you know, as we do we kind of go all over the place, but we are, I think talking you had mentioned repair, and real things that we can do to repair with our attachment styles and move towards secure attachment. antidotes to the styles. Like there's something in DBT like do the opposite. Isn't that right? It's like a thing, right? Do the opposite. Yeah. Okay. So do the opposite. We call it attachment style, on the way to secure attachment. Yeah. And then I asked for some parenting tips like if you you identify with a certain style. What might be some things to look out parenting wise. Like if you're avoidant? Why have children at all because all they do is just suck you dry? Right? Right. Okay. All right.
Got that out of the way. Exactly. Why would anybody why do
Alison Cebulla 15:07
you why do anything right?
Anne Sherry 15:11
I almost made it out. I had to get it. 44 I was like, almost made it out why now it's the best thing. So anyways. Okay. So there we go. Yeah. All right. Yay.
How do you repair this?
Elizabeth Gillette 15:25
Let's do it. I know, oh, gosh, it's so much. And it's like, what I want to say too, is that when I talk about repair, I'm not talking about like repairing everything that happened to you. I'm talking about repairing in moments in relationships, and how that is the start of repairing What happened to you? Right? Because we can't go back and change. What happened? I know it is, isn't it? Because we can't go back and change it. And I talk to clients about that all the time. You know, we'll do what we call corrective experiencing. And that comes from Dynamic attachment. repatterning, which is Diane Miller's work. Well, we Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I
Anne Sherry 16:06
get her email. I
Elizabeth Gillette 16:07
sure. Well, yes. Sign
Anne Sherry 16:08
up for Diane. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yep.
Elizabeth Gillette 16:12
So corrective experiences are essentially looking at a memory and going back and we alter it together, right. So we're sitting here in the present moment, you do this with a person who you trust like a therapist, and you bring up a memory of something that was difficult. And in the moment in the session, you are altering the experience, right. So if you, for example, you know, for this topic we're talking about if you experienced a lot of emotional neglect as a child, a corrective experience may be going back to a memory where you felt really alone, and bringing in like, sounds in the kitchen and voices and like people talking and a family member coming in and poking their head in and saying, Hey,
Anne Sherry 17:01
come join us. That's enough. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 17:06
That's right.
Alison Cebulla 17:06
I'm gonna I'm actually gonna cry. Yeah. Whoa, like a specific kitchen. Like, my childhood. I was like, no, no, no, no, not today. Terrible.
Elizabeth Gillette 17:22
Hard to was a mistake, right. And of course, you know, I've been sitting here for the past, however long just thinking of all the things. The kitchen memories, like when you think about a kitchen, and I know I'm jumping way ahead, but even thinking about if you are a person who has children in your life, right, like, what sort of memories are you wanting to create with them that they are going to think about? And will be like a resource for them like an internal resource for them? Yeah, right.
Anne Sherry 17:53
That remember Heidi? We interviewed Heidi? Allison, I love Hi now safe and sound protocol. And she was all about this, like creating resource and safety. Yeah, yeah. So yes. Yeah. It's all like, puzzle pieces coming together. Yeah, yeah, we're
Elizabeth Gillette 18:12
gonna absolutely everybody hang in there. We are.
Anne Sherry 18:17
Okay, yeah. So
Elizabeth Gillette 18:18
it's like that. So that's kind of what I mean, when I talk about repair. It's also about how you manage conflict, and what we would call rupture in your relationships. So rupture is a very normal thing to have happen, where you come into a moment of disagreement, or you show up in a way that doesn't feel good to you, or someone else shows up in a way that doesn't feel good to you. And, in healthy attachment, we circle back and we fix it. And I don't mean fix it in a way of like, you're like, I'll do anything to fix this. And I'll be exactly who you want me to be. So that you're not mad at me anymore. Right? Which is like my, that's my thing. Or like, I'm gonna just yeah, yes, exact like, throw this away. This relationship is over. Goodbye.
Anne Sherry 19:03
Um, you should see how much Allison and I are moving. We are squirming as
Elizabeth Gillette 19:09
I see your faces.
Alison Cebulla 19:13
So funny. Okay. We also are caffeinated today. So our
Anne Sherry 19:19
caffeinated thank you for? Yeah, whatever.
Alison Cebulla 19:22
We're bad. We're not that bad. Okay.
Elizabeth Gillette 19:28
Okay. But even just I would encourage you if you are a person who's squirming right now, so just notice what's going on? Yes.
Anne Sherry 19:35
Can we do a real time? Yeah. Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 19:39
just notice what's happening for you and your body. And notice if there's anything around you, that feels safe, right, so like, we're having this conversation, but at any moment, you can hit pause. At any moment. You can throw your phone across the room if you need to. Right, like at any moment, you can Take some space, there is no pressure, no rush, you can look away if you happen to be watching a clip of this, you know, like you can, you can take the space that you need.
Anne Sherry 20:12
Oh, I have a soft blanket right here that's absorbing the sound in my podcast studio corner office.
Elizabeth Gillette 20:24
Yeah. So, you know, I think there are opportunities for us to recognize that we don't have to do things on a certain timeline or schedule. Right. Right. And some people might be listening to this, like faster, you know, yeah, like speed is out there. Like Give it to me. Right?
Anne Sherry 20:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have people or have seen people that just grew up in just super fast like, go go go pressured. Childhood so maybe we talked about that with parenting or whatever. Yeah, I'll bring that up. Yeah, at topic three. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 21:03
Maybe we want to come back to repair. Um, I don't think that's I don't know that that's like intuitive. You know, I know like John Gottman runs. John Gottman lab work has become more prevalent, widely read. But I find that most people still that I know and talk to haven't, aren't familiar, you know. And so, okay, and even I'm even thinking. I was just so we just had a big family reunion, which was super fun. And I got to see my aunt who's a cardiologist. And she and I talked at length about how in the, there's just like a lack of conflict resolution skills right now in the workplace. And it's leading to really dangerous situations, especially in healthcare, because instead of having hard conversations, they're just like writing people up, reprimanding them changing rules. And in the healthcare setting, that means like people are dying, because of this kind of authoritarian style, right. And so it's like, yeah, it's our interpersonal relationships, but it's also our workplaces. And so my three esteemed colleagues and I founded a new company this year, to help with internal work in trauma within internal work environments. And we just realized, like, people do not have conflict resolution skills or repair skills, right, same same kind of deal. And so maybe you could go into what does that mean? What does that look like? Why is it important? For people who don't really understand what that process is?
Elizabeth Gillette 22:49
Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, that's so that's exactly right. It's so scary to think about the impact that those conflicts can be having on real lives, right. And yeah, how to
Anne Sherry 23:03
like, oh, my gosh, I have a lot of health care people. Yeah. Then they're just like, I'm just done.
Elizabeth Gillette 23:09
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And the resentment that breeds as a result of not not addressing conflict, right, not addressing rupture, I think is a huge piece of this. And when I think of that, in any relationship across the board, right, that resentment that's just forming underneath the surface all the time, that means the next time you have conflict, you're approaching it with a lot more anger, right? You're approaching it with a lot more frustration, a lot less tolerance. Yeah. And also a lot less trust, right. And when I think about repair and relationships, I think about building trust, and really, and this is a Gottman thing, but like depositing into your relational bank account with that person, right. So this idea that, like, I'm coming to you, and I'm addressing this issue, even though it's uncomfortable, because I care so much about you, and because you're important to me, right, so there's like, check number one, like you matter to me. And so I want to solve this with you. And this is particularly hard, I think for people who are more on the avoidant end of the spectrum and a little bit more dismissive is that you have to acknowledge that you care about a person. Oh.
Anne Sherry 24:24
I mean, go back. Everybody remember where we started Alice and I Why can't we care? Like why can't people and we projected that onto everybody? Like no one cares, and I think it's just us us avoidance? Like we just don't care. You know, and we
Alison Cebulla 24:42
know, we have I know love wins, right tree really? Yeah, to be honest.
Elizabeth Gillette 24:46
It's and it is, and it's becoming more avoidant. I'm so glad that you said that. Allison is becoming more avoidant. And we're so focused on independence and we're so I mean, when you even when you think about from a parenting perspective, it's like, well, when is your baby going to sleep through the night? When is your baby going? Like, when is your baby gonna go to school? When is like, I mean, it's always like, When are they going to be on their own? And we're very focused on that as a culture.
Anne Sherry 25:07
That's a success. You wonderful, successful milestones you? Yeah, that's
Elizabeth Gillette 25:12
right. Yep. Yeah. So everybody is out there just like auto regulating doing everything by themselves instead of trying to do that in relationship. And so. And I think there's also this whole protective mechanism around that, right. If I don't show that I care, then I can't get hurt. If you don't know that I care, then you're not going to hurt me. Yep.
Anne Sherry 25:35
Yep, that yeah, that's a big thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 25:41
I think we talked about that a little when we talked last in part one. Because I was talking about my dating project. That's, you know, yeah. And that will have started by the time this airs, but um, that it's, it's really, it's really can be very tough to put yourself out there. And to say that you even have feelings that could be hurt. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 26:07
Yeah. This It's like trying to be in these emotionally mature communities and getting having tough conversations. I do worry, how much shame is reinforced, you know, like, you're a terrible person because you don't care or you didn't say something right? Or I don't know, just blowing, everybody's just leaving or whatever. And then that's terrible. And anyways, so it's, it's this quality of really, I think, for avoidance probably for anxious, probably for any insecure. There's so much shame. So I'm curious about that may be in repair. How do you sit with shame or acknowledge that this is shame? Or? Because shame is I'm bad? I'm a terrible person. I must go. Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 27:00
that's right. And I think I think you're exactly right. I think all of the insecure styles, whether you're anxious, avoidant, or disorganized, we all grapple with shame in different ways, right? And we all respond to shame differently. And I think that when we're able to recognize that, like, we all experience it. Yeah. And just because you make a mistake in a relationship, or you don't show up perfectly, or you don't show up, you know, like, that's not, it's, it's not about you, as a human, right people can have. And we kind of talked about codependence last time. But it's this idea that like, just because someone else has an emotional response to something you did or didn't do. It doesn't mean that it's a reflection of you, as we're having these conversations. So much of it is about our own stuff, right, and our own projections onto people. And I think it's a it's so much easier said than done, right? This is not one of those things of like, oh, I can go home and practice this. Like, it's, I think, a thing that we learn in the context of relationships.
Anne Sherry 28:03
Well, there's a catch 22 for you.
Elizabeth Gillette 28:04
I know it. I know it. And I think we're jumping ahead. We talked a little bit about like the antidote idea. But one of the things I think is really helpful for every style. And all of us can practice this is learning how to be more welcoming. I think it's especially helpful. I love that.
Anne Sherry 28:26
I love that.
Yeah, phrase like being loving. Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 28:31
I think it's especially helpful for the avoidant style.
Alison Cebulla 28:34
What does that mean?
Elizabeth Gillette 28:37
Well, when I think about if I wanted to go and have a conversation with somebody where I was going to be uncomfortable, if I went to approach them, and they were sitting there and their arms were crossed, and they looked angry, right, and they felt their energy felt cold to me. I mean, even like, I can feel it in my back. Like, as I say it, I'm like, it's like my protective shell wants to come on. And I'm like, Oh, that is the last thing I want to do is have a conversation with you about this heart thing. Yes. If I think about somebody who feels more open, yeah, who's looking at me with kind eyes? Who is like I can just feel in their body in their presence. Like if they take a big deep breath, and I'm like, Oh, I just tell them take a big deep breath. Right? It's just you feel so much more ready to do that, right? Somebody who's going to be like, Tell me more, who's going to practice curiosity. You know, who's going to maybe ask questions, rather than jumping to conclusions. Like I think those are all different ways that we can be welcoming of a topic or a person and really engage in doing it doing relationships differently. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 29:59
I'm reminded of my mom doing it. Well, it's I'm like tearing up remembering my mom did this really well, once. We had all gone on a trip, and she was hurt that I was pushing. I was like, kind of dealing with my own trauma stuff. And I was kind of pushing people away. And she really wanted to talk about it and process it. And I really was being avoidant. And she said, I am strong enough to hear whatever you need to tell me. Oh, wow, go Mom. I know. She's the best. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 30:38
That see that? Winner
Unknown Speaker 30:40
where?
Elizabeth Gillette 30:41
It's so powerful, right? Because then it's like when I think about it, and I'm not here to, to, you know, name your experience, but it's like you're met in that right? So all of these hard feelings, big feelings you're having that are coming up and you were like, nobody could understand this. Nobody in here she is saying I'm here with you. Boy,
Anne Sherry 31:01
I've got you here setter. Oh, no. Yeah, it's like yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh
know, onto the next thing good. Alison. Let me welcome. I guess because I'm like, my mom's stuff comes up, or my generation who we are, our parents are aging and a lot of shit didn't get done. And we're also being asked to care be more caring be a good, you know, like, society's like, you know, what? Mom's blah, blah, blah, Oh, bless your heart. Are you going to visit her? Like, no, not going to visit her? Like, it's boring, or something, you know? And then you're like, Oh, I'm a sociopath. So anything before how how to like, for our listeners, I mean, I do all kinds of work to like, whatever deep stuff, but just how to be with that. We're going to do a whole show or a podcast on Gen X and their aging parents, because I see it everywhere. We're going to, we are losing our shit on you didn't care for me is what we're saying. Go fuck yourself needing care right now. And it's really there's a lot of energy. So just curious if you have maybe a tidbit? I think of that. Yeah. Well,
Elizabeth Gillette 32:31
I mean, I think that's a big topic, first of all, but I do think I do think, yep, that there's a lot in there about what can I do? And how might I be able to extend that welcoming? Or that kindness? And then how do I hold the other boundaries? Right. So rather than overextending and moving into a place where again, you're creating that resentment, you're able to stay right in yourself and say, here is what I can do, I can call you every other Saturday or whatever. Right? Which is like I mean, yes, again, like you, whatever feels good to you. And that's what I can do right coming to visit you doesn't feel like an option for me right now. I can totally understand how you would want that and I'm just not capable of it. Right? So it's kind of like here's what I can do and here's what I'm not
Anne Sherry 33:25
able to do. It was that was kind yeah, there's something I heard in meditation with my man David G. Something about the three gates of communication is it true on the app on Oh on the app on Insight Timer everybody's like time where today's a trend transformation? He's it is so him in the Buddha Princess little doggie has, anyways, is it true? Is he says the three gates of communication and this is probably Buddhist something, but is it true? Is it kind is it necessary? So I've really been like, is it true? Is it kind is it necessary? Yeah. So yeah, and you really got us I don't know down to like how can I you
Alison Cebulla 34:06
have to slow down? You can when your lid is flipped when you're in moments of high emotional intensity. Slowing down to ask those three questions is a whole class skill.
Elizabeth Gillette 34:21
Yes, it is. A great way to put it
Anne Sherry 34:30
I was
I wasn't Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 34:35
And with repair, you don't have to do it. Like the minute that you feel something is happening. Right? Please give yourself permission to say this is feeling like a lot for me or I need some space from this before we check in about it. I'd like to circle back. Let's see if you can even say a time where you'd like to come back to it tomorrow, and an hour and a month. I don't know Sometimes we need a month. Sometimes you do, right? It's
Anne Sherry 35:03
so cool that you say that. And then I'm like, Oh my God, then I would just be planning my escape, right? My old self, I'm much better, but like just planning my escape, you know, like, yeah, yeah, so anyways, but I do like giving yourself
Alison Cebulla 35:20
I feel like and you and I both do this a little bit. It may be our avoidant thing. Yeah. And Elizabeth, you tell me if you do this to bet, like you're already thinking about the next thing you need to go do instead of being right here. And the thing that we're already doing in such a weird trap that I think keeps us from being relational.
Anne Sherry 35:44
Where you start feeling shit, Allison, if you're present and relational.
Elizabeth Gillette 35:51
It's true. Well, and even just seeing it, yes. And even thinking on the other side of the spectrum, right? For someone who is anxious, it's like, they're feeling so much, that it's also hard for them to be relational. Because it's like, they're drowning in the feelings. Right? Right. They're drowning in what is going on. And it feels so important to stop drowning. Because it is right, it is important to stop Yeah, you die that it's like, right. It's just like, I can't I absolutely cannot tolerate this amount of emotion in my body and in my sort of, like relational field. And so I am like, right? I mean, it's like, no, I cannot wait 10 minutes. I need to solve this now. And if you don't want to solve this with me now, then it tells me you don't care about me. Right, which makes it even worse. So it's like, so I just want to share that too. Yeah. Because I imagine a lot of the people who might be listening who are avoidant might be in relationship with people who are anxious. And so I just, I
Alison Cebulla 36:55
do, do, yeah, if you are anxious like that, and you have a partner that's avoidant. And you're like, Oh, we don't need to solve this now. But you This is relevant to repair, you do need to actually though you do have to solve it at some point. And so if like, weeks and weeks go by, and it doesn't get repaired, just like you said, that's bad. Yeah, like you do actually have to do it at some point, because then I'm not speaking from personal experience, or recent personal experience or anything like that. But
Anne Sherry 37:27
never had,
Alison Cebulla 37:30
um, then use that. It's like, you don't even have a relationship. Like, that's literally not a relationship. I don't know what that is, like, just out avoiding each other or something. Yeah, yeah.
Anne Sherry 37:42
That's why Tom and I got that feedback from a couples therapist, who were both avoidant, she was like, nobody's in this relationship. I was like, Oh, it seems to be working just
like, you know, we do a lot of things project ships getting done. Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 38:00
yeah. And in my I have to say, and I don't mean for this to be a plug necessarily, but in my book, I have a whole section on different the different attachment styles in relationship with each other. And I think that part is important, because it's like, you know, you can kind of get the basic like, Here are these attachment styles kind of anywhere. But I feel like that piece of like, these are the common things that we see in these relational interactions. And these are different things you can do in your relationship, to create more security and really invest in that foundation of security and your partnership. Yeah, if you have differing attachment styles, so So you're saying we
Anne Sherry 38:39
actually have to work on this? Oh, gosh, I
Elizabeth Gillette 38:42
know. Yes. Parent, you know, okay.
Anne Sherry 38:46
Get it big, do secure attachment with your children. So they don't like, you know, and it's like
Elizabeth Gillette 38:53
I also Okay, so here's that statistic. I don't think we talked about this last time, okay, too. And it's hard. It's a hard one, because it's relieving on one hand, and then you get to thinking about it, and it feels probably upsetting. But in order to have secure attachment, only 30% of your interactions with a person need to be like, attuned, and like where you're like with them, right? Only 30% and you can get secure learning. Yeah. Right. And then when you think about that, and you're like, oh my gosh, that must mean that I had less than 30% which is hard. Yeah, by with I think. But also, like, let's look at it from a celebratory.
Anne Sherry 39:35
I know 30 persons. Yeah, you're right.
Elizabeth Gillette 39:38
And we need one person, one person who we have that with can create help us create that blueprint. So yes, it comes from parents, but it also comes from aunties and uncles and besties and right like, your, your friend's parents and like it can come from so many different places.
Anne Sherry 39:59
Yeah, that is a That's awesome in therapy to be able to build on that, like, there are resources. Yeah, I mean, I can even remember in the worst of the worst early days of counseling or my own counseling many years ago, just fully in the like, No, I was not loved. And my, my therapist was like, I am sure there was a nurse that looked at you lovingly, at some point. And I was like, Oh, that was enough. I know, that's just there's a part of me that's like, oh, that's pathetic. But it was enough at that time. And I was in a deep story of like, no one, you know, the narrative of no one cared. So yeah, but so that little light so important, you know? Yeah, my partner heard it. And they were like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Enough. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 40:48
That's so powerful. And we can do that for Yeah, we can do that for kids and other people. I mean, it doesn't have to be just kids. I know. We're gonna talk about parenting. But yeah, it can be anybody you're in relationship with. Right? Like, can you see that person? And take a moment and appreciate them? Yeah, right. My connection? Yeah. Remember micro corrections.
Anne Sherry 41:09
Some time ago? We were talking about? I don't know. But like, Well, if that paying attention to Yeah, we did talk about that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. Got a whole show on repair. Any other I mean, just get the book, you want to do the work thing? We do want to hear about parent, but any more on antidotes to the styles? Welcome?
Elizabeth Gillette 41:32
Oh, yes. Yes. So I think so that one I think is great across. Yeah. Across the styles. I think it's especially great for when you're in relationship with someone who is more avoidant, to learn how to become more welcoming. I think folks who are more anxious, really benefit from your presence, right? Like your attention, your focus, because oftentimes, when they were young, they were maybe in relationship with a caregiver who was distracted or busy or wasn't consistent with them. So having that really attuned and focused presence is really important and helpful. And the disorganized style safety, is it. So however, you can provide incentives to do
Anne Sherry 42:16
Heidi's episode on Yes. Sound protocol. Yes,
Elizabeth Gillette 42:20
yes. 100%. That is going to safety benefit.
Anne Sherry 42:25
Is there something like how would you? How would you do that? Like what are say? Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 42:31
I mean, I think it's a great question. I think even like asking someone, like, how are you feeling right now? Like is where we're sitting? Does that feel comfortable to you? Like, are you good in this? Like, would it feel better if we moved? Or, you know, is there anything I can do to help you feel?
Alison Cebulla 42:51
It makes me want to start crying.
Anne Sherry 42:53
Like it's the feels, I'm just like, energy's just all running up and down. Like got the heart down and to the legs and grounding and yeah, yeah, I feel
Elizabeth Gillette 43:03
like this is it though. Like, I don't know how else to explain it. It feels like this stuff that we're talking about. Yeah. Which is why I do the work. I do like this is it? This is what it is to be in connection. Yeah, that feels true and real. And makes it worse, like makes life worth
Anne Sherry 43:21
living? Totally. Totally. I mean, yeah, that's it. Yeah. My, my energy worker person who I want to study with and learn everything that she does. She, she it was so helpful for her to say, Yeah, we come here to connect. And if that's not happening, it's really confusing to a little system. Really, just that simple, little, like, reframe on that. I was like, Oh, yeah. So in turtle family systems, my therapy style, you know, I was like, no wonder the layers and layers of parts that have to come online to shut down connection. Or you'll go crazy. I don't know if I can say the word crazy, but you'll go insane. I mean, it feels in to me. Healing. There are edges of insanity to heal. So go slow. Yes.
Elizabeth Gillette 44:12
Oh, my gosh, yes. And especially, I mean, what you're saying is so true for the disorganized style, which is what we're talking about with the safety piece, right? It's like that constant push, pull that internal conflict between survival and attachment. And, like, is it safe to be in relationship? Can I like, is it safe to be in the world, you are going to have to come up against those edges. Yeah. And I really support folks who have more of the disorganized style. Yeah, to see a therapist who specializes in this work, who understands attachment who can support you in that because it's not work to do on your own? You don't have to do it by yourself.
Anne Sherry 44:51
Yeah. You literally I don't think it will really work. No, yeah. I mean, there's a lot to do outside of it, you know, but yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 44:59
it gets you gets you so far. Yeah. Right. Like, I mean, I mean, any of this work gets you so far if you're reading and doing the things, but so much of the relational work has to happen in relationship.
Anne Sherry 45:09
Hello, yeah, yeah. But
Alison Cebulla 45:12
I did want to actually come back and to what you said about, that's insanity, or that's crazy, because I'm, like, I got this really, like, really clear definition. And I can't remember if I've said it on our pot before about craziness or insanity or mental illness, or after we talked to Dasha this season, and her book about the evolved nest, and that chapter about how they had a baby elephant that lost its parents. And then the caretaker, the human caretaker for the baby elephant had to go away that weekend or whatever. And this is really sad content advisory here is what I'm about to say is really sad. And so the baby elephant died. And I know, I know, because it thought that it just didn't have any parents left. And so I had this epiphany about humans, which is that mental illness is a advantage that humans have over other mammals, because we have the storytelling part of the brain. When our caregivers go away, and don't nurture us, we create a story. And that story keeps us alive, we would die without that story. But in adulthood, that story is mental illness.
Anne Sherry 46:31
Yeah, yep. And that that is so much of the growth piece, being able to get space at some point in the rear, I think the real interactions, that so that the narrative can can lessen over time, right? Because it's like, I mean, listen to our partner,
Allison and I have healed real time. And
here we're like, just so I felt personally like, and it's been really helpful to blend about with that, like, it was bad. It was and I do think it needs to be acknowledged how bad it was, or really felt because you talk yourself out of it. I went to practice, I was a superstar in high school, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've been born around to having a lot of compassion for my parents, you know, just like I'm able to keep going, story get through bigger or the truth gets bigger, or you're safer inside, you know, like you attach here in your own system, so that you can be, but it's just always just infinity. So simple. Like, do your own work. Come back, try to connect go back in. Yeah. Yeah, but keep going. It gets. It does get bigger, because people are like, Oh, I can't I can't talk about my parents. They did everything for me. And I'm like, Oh, I don't reach that 30% mark.
You're like, right on the line. So.
Elizabeth Gillette 47:56
Okay, like, it's okay. Like, yes, we can say it's all with this caveat. Like, you can love them, you know, right? Yeah. If they did their best, and you feel like they did their best, then that is wonderful. Yeah. And we can't I mean, my kids will go to therapy for knows what, like, I don't you know, I'm just like
Anne Sherry 48:16
fun. Yeah. Confident fun.
Alison Cebulla 48:19
My mom always said, I have another another good. Another good. Wanda. She always says the more abusive, the more loyal. Someone is. Oh, because the story you had to invent. Because really massive. Yeah. And it's hard to escape a story that big. And so when you're like, in session with someone, and you know, I've worked as a as a one on one life coach before, and they cannot even go there. There's something big under there. And they have had to create this giant story, this giant protective story, and that is hard. Yes.
Anne Sherry 49:00
Yep. Yep. That's so I'll hear it from spouses I may be working with and then their spouse has gone to counseling, and they're like, why do we have to talk about the childhood why they went because of childhood? It's like, I just need a fix right now. And that's fine. Keep running that experiment. And I try to really say we're not going to stay there. We're not going to go and live in childhood, but I guarantee you, there's some shit back there that we need to gather up and understand and do Elizabeth's book and listen to her courses. Yes. But like that you can heal but that resistance to I don't want to go to childhood is like so and you can't Well it I always push it Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 49:46
I Oh, it always is like a little flag. To me when I see people gushing about how grateful they are for their parents like on social media or something. I'm always like, oh god. Yeah. Yeah, like they were amazing. To
Anne Sherry 50:05
me, they not protest too much or the other way. Yeah. A test too much me. Thanks
Elizabeth Gillette 50:18
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
Anne Sherry 50:22
Yeah. Good. We're just not especially it's like muddling through. We're all like born at certain times blah blah blah. Everybody's
Elizabeth Gillette 50:31
got yet yeah, yes, that's exactly right. And whether it's like over blending and all these things a fan enmeshment and all these other I mean, like, oh, we
Alison Cebulla 50:40
define blending and enmeshment for our listeners we do talk. Okay, so not everyone listens. Yeah, episode. Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 50:47
totally. So when I think about that, when I think about investment, I'm really thinking about a lack of emotional boundaries and a family system. So not necessarily are just sort of like, taking for granted that everyone is their own person. So people might be overly involved in each other's lives or business, or think that one person's problem or issue is everyone's to solve. And so it's like, you know, I think that there, there can be a lot of that sort of overstepping of boundaries without recognizing that that is what is happening. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 51:20
yeah. Yeah. And that unwillingness to disappoint or I can't help you with that, you know, or, you know, being being able to tolerate someone's mad at me just being like, Okay, I'm still here with you. But, you know, this is in alignment with whatever my truth does, or Yeah, and then, yeah, blending was the other one. Is it a measurement blending same? Yeah. So
Elizabeth Gillette 51:45
that's what I was thinking I met, you know, I said gardening first. But really, I think the term is in measurement and not just like, over identification with each other within a family system.
Anne Sherry 51:54
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, parenting?
Elizabeth Gillette 51:58
Yeah, parenting, yeah, sales. So I think what I would just say, yes, yes. What I was just say about that is developing an awareness of how you parent, like, you might not really notice, if you haven't done any specific work around this as the kind of parent I want to be. So I'm gonna learn these particular skills, or I'm gonna learn how to respond emotionally to my children. I think you're probably taking a lot from your own childhood and not even realizing it sometimes. And I've said this to my mom before, sometimes I hear my mother's voice come out of my mouth. Yeah. And I don't even realize that I'm doing it. Like I'm talking to my kids. And I'm like, where did that phrase like, that's not a phrase I would use. But it 100% is a phrase that she may have used with us in her parenting. And yes, it boggles my mind. I'm like, that came from the depths of my psyche. I don't even know. Yeah, I wouldn't even know. So like having an awareness of how you want to parent and being intentional about it in the midst of not sleeping not having time. Like I say all of that having
Anne Sherry 53:12
a whatever they call them in the Netherlands come live with you basically for a fucking year while you're getting its right, you know, an entire year off of work to actually parent. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly so many forces that like just a guess I think reinforce. Jacked up nervous system. So what else are you going to revert to, but childhood patterns that you may or may not have worked on? Yeah, yes.
Elizabeth Gillette 53:38
And the desire for your children to be independent long before their little human brains are capable of it. Right? Yeah. Because because you're in survival mode, and you need some space. Like It completely makes sense to me. But I think, yeah, hold
Anne Sherry 53:54
August. I was gonna call the cops on him if he didn't get in the car. Yep. You told me that. He was 18 months, maybe two years old? Yeah. Route one.
Elizabeth Gillette 54:05
I mean, you know, but like
Unknown Speaker 54:09
30% is 30%. Yeah, that was definitely percent.
Anne Sherry 54:13
Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 54:15
Thank you today, weirdly, because I didn't know we were going to talk about this. So I started nannying full time at when I was 11 years old.
Anne Sherry 54:27
August 11 I analysis. Oh my god that drives at home actually, I've heard you say this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alison Cebulla 54:37
And then I worked as a nanny until my mid 20s, basically, and so took care of I've taken care of a lot of other people's kids. So even though I'm not a parent myself, I've had lots of parenting experiences. And just today, this thought popped into my head about how bad it feels. holes in the body to punish kids. And I almost think that because I started so young, I actually have two very clear memories, one when I was like 11, or 12. And I was taking care of like a five, six year old. And then one when I was 16, and taking care of two kids who are five and six, and saying and saying, like, you're on timeout, you're being bad. I remember it. It was just two instances, one on yet. And I remember one feeling like, what Where did that come from? That right, because it's what I expressed, right to noticing that it didn't work. I didn't get whatever it was that I wanted to get. So I actually didn't try it again. After that, like I never, I never ended up trying again, which is kind of interesting. Because I started so young, I wasn't so set in my ways, like I had like this really open mind. So I so I think like if you're like an adult, like if you have kids, like in your 30s or whatever, and you're authoritarian, it's like already stuck in there, I think. Whereas that 16 I was like, Oh, that's interesting. That didn't work. I'm going to toss that out and
Anne Sherry 56:05
have some candy about some sugar. Once I'm checking out.
Alison Cebulla 56:08
Yeah, I wasn't really doing that either. But I just I just have this memory of trying it. Noticing that it didn't work. Like it made the kids more wound up, like more acting out and just being like, wow, like be having that energy of telling kids that they're bad. Feels bad to me. In my body. I don't feel good now that I did that. Yep. And I'm also not getting the thing that I want. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 56:36
Well, and gosh, Allison, as I hear you say that I'm like, don't we also do that in our adult relationships? I mean, this station that we're having, right, it's like, You're bad. You're avoidant? What is wrong with you, you need to fix it, go do whatever you need to do. And I'm over here going like this. It's like, that's, it's the same thing. But this is what we grow up with. And this is how we're learning to be with each other. Yeah. And it's like, I love how you said that. There's so I want people to have an open mind about how we interact with each other and what is truly motivating, right? We know for certain, there's research now that shows that shame is not a good, like, behavior changer. No. So you know what I mean? So like, what are you gonna do instead? Yeah, yeah. What are you going to do instead? How can you meet each other there? How can you show up with compassion? You know, this
Anne Sherry 57:36
is the thing that I'll often hear, but then they're gonna get away with it. So who's talking? They're like, if I don't remind them, they'll get away with it. Is that a is that? Who's that? Is that avoidant? Is that? Like, I'm Terry? Yeah, Terry. Yeah. But like our partners, like if they, you know, we don't there's so little trust, like, if I don't keep reminding them. Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 57:59
that's right. Yes. Well, and I think that's the part of us, right, the part that doesn't trust the part that is afraid, right, the part that's afraid that they're going to that we're going to keep getting hurt, that we're not going to set the boundaries that we need to set, right to be treated the way that we need to be treated. And I think that there's also this, this thing in here, that's like, you know, we don't get to make decisions to change our partners, right? Or whoever we're in relationship with, that's not our job. And you can advocate for yourself, and you can say the things and there are people who want to be different and better in their relationships. I just want to name that like, those people exist. Yes. And they can have any attachment style. Yes. There are also people who don't want to change, they can have any attachment style. Okay, so like, it's not I just want to be so clear about that. It's not one style in particular that does it a certain way. Anyone can do that. Right? And so right if you advocate for yourself this Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 59:00
of avoiding
Elizabeth Gillette 59:01
hate. Yeah, here. Yeah. Please. If you take nothing else, you take nothing else. Take that. Run. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 59:11
I'll be back. Like that little bird quote, like set it free.
There's some love or something. It'll come back. I don't know. And how
Elizabeth Gillette 59:18
are you going to show up differently to you, right, like, you want them to be different? How are you going to be different? And how are you going to work collaboratively in your relationship and
Anne Sherry 59:27
the internal family systems are probably a lot of them. You know, you turn before you return? Yeah, everything has to rhyme. I guess we need little quips, little Reimers Yeah, helps us remember, I remember our began Tom and I couples therapy where, you know, it was a stupid sort of, we were trying to, like a wet towel on the bed. You know, like, it was more example. And it was like, I can't stand a wet towel on the bed, you know? And so it was something like I have to kind of remind, and she was like, No, you don't he knows, he knows you don't like it. So your answer is he likes he likes wet towels on the bed. Or he doesn't give a shit. You know, you're gonna have to learn to tolerate. They know you've told them, right. So if it keeps happening, you may be getting your answer. They may not give a shit.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:00:22
So, are you okay with that?
Anne Sherry 1:00:24
And are you okay with that? Right? Yeah, Tom's big phrase is just because I'm doing it differently doesn't mean it's wrong or something like I get this. There's a dynamic of often one of the partners usually identified that yeah, that was very controlling, like, I do it better and to let go of that control and watch like, how somebody cooks like a fucking raccoon, like shit everywhere. Just
Alison Cebulla 1:00:55
not speaking. Okay? Yes.
Anne Sherry 1:00:57
Oh, shit everywhere. I was like, Tom was out of town. And I'm like, Oh my god. Well, one, I don't cook that much. But I'm like, it is so organized in here, you know, put away I wash as I go all the cut. And I was like, just let go. But I was going behind him just like my mom. Cleaning up everything. He's like, where is the fucking knife that I just had? I
was like, oh, it's it's put away. He's like, get away.
Anyway. Fun stuff. Yeah, it
Alison Cebulla 1:01:24
is actually hard to be to live with someone like it is actually hard. Like, I don't want Yes, I think the takeaway should ever be like, You should figure out how to make this easy or whatever. Like, yeah, that could be the goal. But like, because I you know, what, in our part when I shared but like, I really do want to meet someone and try for that reality. But I do have a part that's like, it is. It is harder to live with someone sometimes. There's benefits, yes. But the fact that you're two distinct individuals with different ideas of what quote unquote normal is. Is that is that's just hard for everybody. That's hard. So
Anne Sherry 1:02:05
rupture and repair me.
Alison Cebulla 1:02:11
And can I take a deep breath and just that Tom was just there and just, you know, I don't know what that's bring it up. But yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:02:20
Right. And how big of a deal? And how much do it? Yeah,
Anne Sherry 1:02:25
it was like, all of a sudden, I remember Claudia being like, there was an episode with Alison's aunt who is so funny. And just like she was working with people, but like, people going on and on about the coffee cup that was left in the car that made a stain or something, you know, and just fucking screaming about that and talking about a coffee. Yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:02:50
And these are the conversations I have in couples therapy. Oh, right. Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. It's like you did this thing. And you know how much that bothers me? And how could you possibly do this when you know, right. And other person is like, Oh, my God, I completely forgot that. I did that thing. i Right. And so it's like, okay, great. How do we how do we kind of meet here and open up the lines of communication and recognize that, like, there is so much love and compassion, and you know, it's just like, for
Anne Sherry 1:03:21
me, I'm like, hard pass on that. This lifetime. It's yeah, it's challenging.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:03:26
Yeah. And I love it.
Anne Sherry 1:03:29
Yeah, yeah, that would be a good thing to see how many avoidance they're probably not that many avoidant, that grew up with avoidant attachment style, or lean towards that as couples therapists, as a couples therapy. Yeah, we think avoidance wouldn't want to do that.
Alison Cebulla 1:03:47
already. I'm like, I can't think of any. So
Elizabeth Gillette 1:03:53
it's a lot of energy. Yeah. Like you're holding a lot of energy. So I wonder about that.
Anne Sherry 1:03:59
Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Okay. Research. Any any beginning counseling students or PTO getting your PhD? Please research that and get back to
Elizabeth Gillette 1:04:07
us? Yeah, certainly. There are some we know that has to be true. Yeah. Yes. It amazing. I didn't
Anne Sherry 1:04:12
finish. Okay, go ahead. Oh,
Alison Cebulla 1:04:14
just my decision to be a coach instead of a therapist, and because I'm a certified health coach. So my thing was like, I just want people to to eat healthier and exercise and stuff like that. That was my, I just wanted to help people with that. And how it's not. Well, initially, when I got in it, I didn't understand that it was about emotions in the beginning. And it was just like, how just change your behaviors. Change your mindsets. Yeah. Yeah. So that came crashing down so hard that I had to check myself into a psychiatric hospital. Way to go.
Anne Sherry 1:04:51
See why we are on help Elizabeth we will go insane. We will.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:04:57
I hear you
Anne Sherry 1:05:01
I've never heard you connect it to like that. That's what got you into the cycle of feeling
Alison Cebulla 1:05:06
things, right? I could feel things No, yeah, no, it was it was, it was the realization that emotions exist. That was That is what happened is why I chose myself and realizing that there was an emotional world that could have been explained to me better as a child that I had created the story that I was telling you guys about to cope with my childhood, that suddenly I realized was just a story. And that was like, basically delusional, basically psychotic, like psychosis. I, you know, and having that all shatter at once and seeing though all of this psychosis were in front of me and just like someone hit it with a hammer and it just shown there was was actually too much.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:05:53
Ah, you are describing also, for a lot of people who are more avoidant, the, like the grief of the recognition of the ways in which they did not have emotional connection throughout their lives. Yeah, it can feel so incredibly overwhelming total to recognize like I've lived my life with, you know, like, in a drought essentially, yeah. Of, of emotion and love and connection and joy, and all kinds of other things that can feel very overwhelming. So again, yeah, like, here to support you. Yes. Love you. Right. You're not alone. Like all I'm saying, like, you are not alone. And it is hard. And you're doing such a beautiful job.
Anne Sherry 1:06:38
Yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember it was what your bone what my bones? No, yes, I'm so good. Worked on this shit for so long. So just I think of it too in these sort of like, you're gonna go through developmental patterns and stages and life stages, you know, like you're continuously growing and you deepen into another loss or whatever. And that book dropped me to my knees on Oh, my God, it was as bad as I thought it was. I finally felt it. And that was a new level of work that needed to happen. Yeah. That was That was wild to like, yeah, it was like, being hit by something bright cool in the word, right. And a train that you were driving to the psych hospital? Yes. No, but
Alison Cebulla 1:07:29
it does feel so and I just we keep we keep saying it. And I want for our listeners. Yeah, feels so hard to have something shattered. And so you know that that first shattering was in 2016. And the next shattering for me, was just a few years ago during the pandemic and listening to the conspiratorial ality podcast and watching all the cult shows, and realizing that I was putting people on a guru pedestal. Yeah. And then there was nothing special about them, ever any of them. And they were never better than me. And there's still not better than me. And that that was harming me to do that. Yeah, that that also, the grief paralyzed me for like two years of like, wow, I was such an idiot.
Anne Sherry 1:08:21
Oh, there those critics? Yeah, you're doing it wrong. All that stuff. That's my neighbor's. You're not doing it wrong, you guys. You're not doing it wrong. Just keep going.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:08:33
Keep going. Yeah. And have good resources, right. Like don't listen to all the stuff out there that's telling you that like certain attachment styles are bad or like That's not the thing if you start reading an article and it sounds that way, I really invite you to stop reading it and find something else. Yes.
Anne Sherry 1:08:52
Yep. Walk away. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 1:08:55
Did you have any shattering moments? If we can dig in there Elizabeth any any shatter any moments where something fell?
Elizabeth Gillette 1:09:02
Oh, yes. I'm just like, I'm like, How many times have I been shattered? I mean, so many, so many, like
Anne Sherry 1:09:11
falling out of a glass floor? Something Yeah,
Elizabeth Gillette 1:09:14
like, like really, truly it does feel that way. Um, I mean, I have a few that are like particularly particularly hard when I was 21 I had cancer. And so that was like a pretty big shattering moment, especially the recognition that I was well and now looking back on it, I see the ways in which my anxious attachment style in relationships was causing me so much stress that I think I was like living with a level of stress in my body that was not okay. Like on a daily basis, especially in that last year, like my last year of college leading up I mean, I was, you know, dating all these people who were terrible for For me in so many ways, and I have no self awareness, and you know what I mean? Like there was a lot in there. And then, yeah, also in 2016, I had a shattering of a relationship where I wanted to so desperately be a helper, I so desperately wanted to step in, and like rescue somebody and be there for them. And it, it exploded so epically in every way that it there was like, no part of my life that went on touched. And I essentially like went into a cave for however many months, and I was just the level of shame that I experienced. And I felt like the worst person on the planet. Like, how could I ever think that I was a good therapist, or like a good friend or a good person in the community? I mean, I went through, it was like a tow it was like a cocoon moment, like a total transformational time. And, and then I remember, like, poking my head out, when I started to have conversations with people about it and be like, can I tell you how I'm so awful? And they're like, Elizabeth, you're not awful. What are you? Yeah. And I was like, Are you sure? I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I'm terrible. And they're like, you're really not, you know, and so I started do it. And it was like, tiptoeing out. And every time I would have one of those conversations, it brought me more into the light again, and it ushered in this whole new phase of my life. And that's what's happened every time I've been shattered, you know. And so, so yes, it is. Those moments are, they're horrible. And they're also kind of amazing.
Anne Sherry 1:11:52
Were you already doing this work? Or do you think this really was to, like, really deepen? And it been? Yes, yeah. That
Elizabeth Gillette 1:12:01
yes, it did. I was doing it. But on a level of like, oh, I this is a thing I do. And I came out of this. And I was like, oh, wait a second. I, my life's mission is to understand relationships in a different way. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:12:16
That sense? Like, yeah, good. Jingjing energy everywhere. I'm like, wow. And it's so obvious. I mean, just being with you talking with you. Just your aliveness is like, you can have this to people, like you can have Elizabeth energy, you can knock, your shattering all the Shattering and transform them into your purpose. I think that's a plan. You
Elizabeth Gillette 1:12:42
can Yes, it is. It is and you can and all the things and if you have questions, right, no, don't seek a trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:12:50
Yeah. Don't do that. But in the world, yes. Don't worry, they
Alison Cebulla 1:12:57
will be there. Yeah. Well, yeah.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:13:00
If you need to come out. Yes. About resources. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cool strategies. Like if I can help you, in some way. Figure out how to get on this path that feels good for you. I am so here for it. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:13:16
Yes. connect. Connect. Okay.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:21
But you had asked Elizabeth if there was anything?
Anne Sherry 1:13:25
Ah, yeah, I don't know. Just the parenting piece. It sounds like, just do your work. Yeah. I mean, when something's triggered out you it's probably not you like if they're Yeah, cuz you're 100%. Yeah. And the kid is the kid and they're supposed to do all kinds of crazy shit. So
Elizabeth Gillette 1:13:44
learn about what's developmentally appropriate. That's right. Have a good sense of what's developmentally appropriate, because if you were prenta fied, you're probably going to try to identify your own children. Yeah, right. So like, check, check that out and be like, Oh, it's totally normal at a year or two or three for them to not want to do XYZ. It's not about them as a person. It's about them developmentally. And so I can can I create space for that to allow them to just be children? Yeah,
Anne Sherry 1:14:13
yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:15
That's a good one. Thank you.
Anne Sherry 1:14:18
All right. Do we have to do a feelings wheel?
Alison Cebulla 1:14:22
Yes, but I have a spin on it. Okay, okay. Well I just can't keep telling you. Just we just pick one feeling's word and we all do the same word.
Anne Sherry 1:14:39
That's a new one we can do anything in a part two.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:45
Wow. But you had
Anne Sherry 1:14:47
and you can edit it out and be like, that was a fucking disaster.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:51
That's true. Yeah, that is true. Yeah, this is a live
Anne Sherry 1:14:55
first.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:14:56
I went last last time can I get
Anne Sherry 1:14:59
my Go first. Okay, okay. All right.
Alison Cebulla 1:15:02
Okay. Are you guys ready? Oh, it's gonna be okay.
Anne Sherry 1:15:08
Yeah. All right. Everybody's moving. Scared nobody. Oh, my God I'm scared. We can
Alison Cebulla 1:15:18
we just scared last time? I don't think so
Anne Sherry 1:15:20
I was scared last time.
Alison Cebulla 1:15:22
Oh you were choose another one we already did. Do you want me pick another one since you had that last time? What do you think Elizabeth? Yeah, choose a different one. Okay. Forget that. Oh, here's,
Anne Sherry 1:15:35
here's hard enough.
Alison Cebulla 1:15:36
Here's a word for Furby and an dismissive
Elizabeth Gillette 1:15:42
what? I cannot believe that that is the word. Are you serious?
Anne Sherry 1:15:47
Okay. emotions or feelings. I'm like, is that a feeling? Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 1:15:51
I mean, dismiss it. Okay, so this is Mr. dismissive,
Elizabeth Gillette 1:15:53
dismissive. dismissive. Smear says,
Anne Sherry 1:15:57
okay, yeah, I'm okay to.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:16:03
When I feel it in my body, it feels like a shield on the front. Like, I feel. It's like a wall. Or like, something right in front of me. Like, my face, my chest, my stomach. Um, and I'm going to share a time when I was dismissive. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yep. And for me, this is like the opposite of like, anything I would ever write. It doesn't come naturally to me. So do that. Oh, but I do. But I do. Because we all have, we all have all the attachment styles.
I would say that I'm probably a lot more dismissive in this phase of life with my partner than I would like to be. Yeah, because we are in this like survival mode. I have a four year old and then my baby will be one tomorrow. So we are just very much in this like phase of life where we're just it's like tag teaming everything. Yeah. And so yeah, just feeling into that. I sort of just like see this look on his face and meeting like, like that. You know what I mean? Like, Oh, I totally, I like skipped over what you were feeling or what you needed to try to rush to the next thing? Yeah. So I think that would be my most recent Yeah. experience of it doesn't feel good. She'll be back. The kids are getting. That's right. Time is moving. No matter what.
Anne Sherry 1:17:45
And I even with young children I imagined to that's yes. Some cool. Awareness. Yeah, I'm gonna get off of this call and go repair with him. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yep. All right. All right.
Alison Cebulla 1:18:05
I think it's you now and because I think I won't be okay.
Anne Sherry 1:18:07
Oh, okay. So I think
I think we say that think, okay, dismissive. It was so interesting. Elizabeth, when you said the shield. I was like, Oh, she just went away. Like, I could really feel like you were Yeah, that was so we really can feel each other's energies. Yeah. Yeah. i It's interesting, because the my recent dismissive, I think is informing how I feel. And it's it. There's something it's it. There's anxiety in here. Because what it is, is visiting my mom, who I was there on Sunday. And there's even though I go with good intentions. Do I go with good? Yeah. It's complicated. She's on the edge of dementia. Oh, wow. It's moving all the way down to my belly. Slow it down. Yeah. So there is a and I worked on this and energy work yesterday, because there is so I'm at that phase of like, I don't think there's repair that can happen because her capacity isn't there. But to sit there for two hours and just look at the clock, like when can I go? When can I go? It's just a whole dismissive experience, you know? And so, yeah, I can hear shaky voice and there's so much energy in here. And I also am aware I think because I did energy work or have worked on this a while. There's just I can really sense into the self energy that's all around me that this is just a really complicated thing, and I don't have to fix it or I know know exactly what's going on. But it is there's lots of dismissive parts because there wasn't really a good relationship. And we can't do it now. So, yeah. Boy, that's all in the torso. Yeah. And I really appreciate Elizabeth, you just like me saying that, like, there's something about you your courage and saying, I don't know what the the piece was about the hard relationship. Like it's a little shattering to like, this the way my mom and I are likely ending, you know, that's like, and, okay, let me say, let me tell people, it's really messy. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay. Can we have scared back? I think I did.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:20:52
I think I made a mistake. We should choose a different one. No, I'm
Unknown Speaker 1:20:57
gonna talk about that too. Not because
Elizabeth Gillette 1:20:58
of you. I just want to be really clear. It's not because of you. It's just like, I
Anne Sherry 1:21:02
know anxious attachment.
I didn't make it that way. I'm avoided. I didn't. Okay. Okay. Good. Good. Good.
So funny. Okay, so,
Alison Cebulla 1:21:11
okay, I forgot that we were going to talk about Repair today. And very, very ironically, and this happens a lot in my life where there's like, just these huge ironies. I'm sure for you guys, too. But just it just, it just always happens, where it's like, oh, wow, this contrast is with this at this moment. But I am. Right before we came on, I actually had fired off an apology and repair email to someone that I had. Yeah. been aggressive with them on on LinkedIn. I think I've talked about it before, had left comment on their posts, that was a little, just wasn't a nice kind. Energy. And I don't actually know this person in person. That's just someone that works in my field. But it just kept weighing on me and weighing on me that just wasn't the right move. And I just was like, I just have to send an apology letter. And it's, I think the opposite of dismissive is that caring, like, oh, I noticed how this could have made you feel and I care about it. And that feels light. It's like weight is taken off, and it feels open and expansive. And dismissiveness, like, it doesn't matter what I did, or they deserved it, or, well, they'll get over it. That is closed and dark. Yeah. And it's like closing it on me. And it's tiny. It's constructive, and it's heavy.
Anne Sherry 1:22:51
Wow. Okay. Wow, that Yeah. That's like, yeah. That was some awesome stuff.
I mean, not that you were acting, but I was like, not as like, you were embodying like closing up with you. I was
Elizabeth Gillette 1:23:11
feeling it, right. Because you were in alignment around like, I recognize the ways in which I hurt you. Yeah. And I don't want that. Right. Like you're, I mean, owning that and taking accountability. Oh, yes. All of that.
Anne Sherry 1:23:29
Yeah. That's, that's in the 30% being done. We just have to be 30% of a human.
Can we just be 30%? Like, everyone, everything, I only only reached 30%. We do not have to be 100%. Humans. Okay, good. I love it.
Thank you for that.
Alison Cebulla 1:23:52
Yes. All right. Gosh, thanks, guys. So let's bez,
Anne Sherry 1:23:57
I just thank you for all this time and everything you got going on. And yeah, it matters matters to the people to be incredibly nourishing to be with you. Appreciate it.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:24:10
Thank you. Thank you so much. I love these conversations with y'all. And I just I'm so grateful that you invited me and I just I love what you're doing out in the world. Please keep please keep doing it. I appreciate you both. Like
Anne Sherry 1:24:24
oh, fuck, we gotta do the podcast.
Alison Cebulla 1:24:26
I know. I know.
Anne Sherry 1:24:27
I mean. There's just like we call this our middle child. Our middle child. Three is our middle cheese in threes. Yeah, I guess we'll have like six four to six seasons or we're planning on it. Yeah, there's
Alison Cebulla 1:24:45
we just keep showing us though even when it's hard to keep.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:24:50
Yeah, that's it. It's a 30% thing you're doing right? You're doing a great job.
Anne Sherry 1:24:58
I'm really people just hit 30 Plus then and then it'll feel so good. You'll you'll want to run that extra 70 laps or whatever it is. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Elizabeth Gillette 1:25:10
So much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Bye
Unknown Speaker 1:25:27
today what I got to do with the cloud
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
