S2.E4. Parental Estrangement

We interview Harriet Shearsmith, author, podcast, and award-winning UK blogger on motherhood, self-love, estrangement, and fashion. We were inspired to interview Harriet after reading and seeing the popularity of Jennette McCurdy's book I'm Glad My Mom Died. Harriet shares why she thinks Jennette's story is resonating with so many right now and shares her own story of recovering from narcissistic parental abuse and her journey to parental estrangement. She shares how she's creating a better parenting world through her inspirational online content.

Topics include: enmeshment, emotional eating, narcissism, mental illness, covert narcissism, parental alienation, British attitudes about therapy, healthy parenting, breaking the cycles of trauma

Harriet Shearsmith is the author of Mommin’ It; podcaster, award winning UK blogger and content creator. Much more importantly, she’s a mum to three wonderful kiddos. Harriet shares her family life, fashion finds and works to break down generational trauma and end the stigma around estrangement across her platforms, you can find her via @tobyandroo on instagram and TikTok, Harriet Shearsmith on YouTube.

Follow Harriet on Instagram.
Harriet's book Mummin' It.

Show Notes:

• Book: I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jennette McCurdy

• Red Table Talk episode with Jennette McCurdy

• Book: You’re Not Crazy, It’s Your Mother

Transcript:

Alison Cebulla 0:06

Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10

And I'm an Cherie we are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:18

Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal

Anne Sherry 0:27

latchkey ergens are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:43

Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:49

Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about

Alison Cebulla 0:53

sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00

Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:03

Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met. And we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.

Anne Sherry 1:11

So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend, you are

Alison Cebulla 1:15

wanted here Hello, welcome back to another episode. Tapping in we loved interviewing Harriet.

Anne Sherry 1:35

It's so much fun. So

Alison Cebulla 1:38

yeah, this episode is about growing up with a narcissistic parent. And I say okay, so it was an that read first the I'm glad my mom died. Yeah, by Jeanette McCurdy. And then she was like, you have to read this book, and then the world would everything you have to read this book. Yes. Yeah. The world was like we have decided this is the best thing that exists right now. So I was like, Oh, yeah. You were you getting a trophy for this one. Yes. So I downloaded the audiobook. And

Anne Sherry 2:17

she that is it. That is you had said this to like, yeah, download the audiobook because Jeanette reads it and she's she reads

Alison Cebulla 2:25

it and yeah, her comedic timing is impeccable. Yeah, I think whatever she decides to do, you know, with the rest of her life is just going to be amazing. And I can't wait to watch.

Anne Sherry 2:37

I was I was listening to somebody interview her and what they brought up is what's cool about this is Jeanette is the way she writes it, you're in her childhood, like, you're this present time and you know that she does okay, you know, I mean, well, however, I mean, she's got a lot of scars, and she'll need to be in therapy for the rest of her life. So you know, she makes it and you also know the mom dies, which is helpful because the mom is that is helpful. Relief. Yeah. Mom died to get out. So there's two things but like, I was like, oh, yeah, like you're really right there as it's occurring. So she does. That's what's kind of cool about this. The way that she wrote it, you're like side by side, this four year old this five year old this 13 year old, you know? Yeah. So she did an amazing job with that. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 3:31

And I love how because she writes it in the present tense. And I was listening to her on an interview as well. She said, You know, she didn't want it to be reflective. Yeah, right. Because when you write it in the past tense, you start to analyze it right? But I love how the analysis is like baked in totally. Because the way she tells it, we're left as a reader knowing exactly what she's trying to say. And I am so impressed with her writing styles. Yeah, we interviewed Harriet about you know some of her overlapping experiences with her mother. Since this is a really hot topic right now. This book has been on the bestseller list for like six or seven weeks now peeking to something yes and I just for fun I pulled up the just for fun the DSM five

Anne Sherry 4:22

okay, I know some people

Alison Cebulla 4:26

I just love looking at you know, what are the signs and symptoms of a narcissistic personality disorder so are you ready and

Anne Sherry 4:33

I am ready. Oh, everybody a narcissist. We're all calling each other narcissists these days. So

Alison Cebulla 4:39

well. Yeah, I do think and some people say you can't just throw that word around. But I do think in a culture in a society we do need to hold each other accountable. Yeah, you know when when we're being kind of antisocial to say you know, that's you're not taking your decisions affect how I feel and you're not taking that into account that's hurtful. Like we have to keep each other in check in it. saying, you know that was narcissistic. Maybe we don't want to accuse people of being a narcissist, but we want to call people out when they're being harmful. Yeah, right, right, right. Okay. So someone with an actual frickin personality disorder needs at least five of the following nine. Okay. Yeah. So number one is a grandiose sense of self importance. Okay, that what is so weird for me because doesn't it seem like narcissists, it's like, we know as therapy type individuals that it's that they actually have the opposite, right? Right, actually feel worthless. That's why they have to have that grandiosity deep,

Anne Sherry 5:36

deep, deep, deep, deep down, not locked away in a cage, like, yeah, that's why it's so hard to heal, because the injuries are so locked down and the beliefs around that, at least from a therapy, internal family system or the therapeutic modalities, there's so much hurt likely. And it might anyways, there's a belief that like, narcissists aren't going to work on themselves. So on some level, I'm like, Well, can we address that maybe we are addressing it by just putting this out there that this is a way so far, but I mean, we all belong to each other to you know, so as a society, I think if we change anyways, I'm getting in that whole structural tight look, you made me a structural geek, Allison, I'm like, look at the structure.

Alison Cebulla 6:29

Go into number two, Priyanka preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. Oh, that either. Like one two? Yes. Yeah, that there should be something perfect that exists. Yeah. Number three, believing that they are special and unique and can only be understood by or should be associated with other special or high status. People. I kind of relate to that. I feel like my brain, my brain, others people a lot, just kind of, not intentionally, but my brain is like, oh, I need to hang out with these people got me and these other people don't like my brain does that. I don't know. Does yours?

Anne Sherry 7:12

No, I'm a latchkey. Like, I don't I don't exist. People aren't real. I mean, people aren't real. I think there's I don't know what that one is. But that's got a little maybe that's sociopath. Real Is this real life? Yeah. So yeah, no, I'm not special. And yeah, I see. Yeah, I see. A little.

Alison Cebulla 7:38

Okay. All right. And requiring number four requiring excessive admiration. Okay, that feels grandiose as well, little

Anne Sherry 7:47

kids. All little kids have a narcissistic phase right? When I hear you read this, and I've made this connection before but like, they want to be told, like Am I pretty in this? Or you know, it's like like, if it's not met and also put into context of a larger community or yes, you look beautiful in that dress and the sky is blue today and like, it's like all these things are happening and it's not like you know, like it's all special. But it I think if you miss the stages on a regular basis, it doesn't get completed the remaining

Alison Cebulla 8:30

the remaining ones here are a sense of entitlement unreasonable expectations, right that sounds very toddler like to have especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations that yeah, that really feels like that goes along with the other one called lacking empathy you're unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings or needs of others because thinking that you're gonna get automatic compliance is part of not understanding that the other person also has a brain with things inside of it. Right feeling side, right? It's like yeah, yeah. And then being interpersonally exploitative, taking advantage of others to achieve their own ends. Also a toddler trait, right? Toddlers do not understand that other people exist. Toddlers are little sociopaths, okay?

Anne Sherry 9:21

Help them move

Alison Cebulla 9:22

phase through. Yes. Often being envious of others or believing that others are envious of them. That sounds like hell. And then showing arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. That's it. You gotta have you gotta have five out of those nine.

Anne Sherry 9:41

Okay. Yeah, and I think all of us can display some of that at some points of points of the day

Alison Cebulla 9:49

within, like, just today alone. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, but having that awareness To say, let me Yeah, make sure that I'm not harming anyone is is what differentiates us. We are so excited for you all to hear harissa. Good weather story. Yeah. Because she is such an engaging speaker. And so and we are so grateful for her sharing her vulnerable story with all of us and all of you listening. It's just feels like a real honor. Yes. That we got to hear this agreed

makes me nervous. Yeah. All right. We are so excited to be here with Harriet. Oh, I should have asked you how to pronounce shearsmith

Harriet Shearsmith 10:51

That's a shearsmith. That's the one.

Alison Cebulla 10:57

So Harriet is a content creator on Instagram. And she has authored a book called mum Minute Tips, hacks and advice on the winds and woes of modern motherhood so perfect for our podcasts and we just can't wait to to dive in here. And she does content around motherhood, self love, estrangement fashion, which I think is always a great addition. Because I just think I just think feeling put together is more important that we give it credit for. Yes. And she's an award winning UK blogger and oversharing coffee addict in need of a nap which is my favorite.

Harriet Shearsmith 11:45

That accurately summarizes me to be honest.

Alison Cebulla 11:49

Well, welcome area. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah. So okay, um, first things first, before we dive into all the fun stuff around a strange moment. Were you a latchkey kid? And so, you know, where you kind of left alone at home? As a kid? Were you an urgent meeting? Not a ton of emotional stuff happening in the household? Or are you a friend, you know, maybe in between or the above what was the emotional environment of your childhood?

Harriet Shearsmith 12:22

I think it was a little bit of everything. To be honest, I remember my mum was a single mum, my dad left when I was about four. So she was a single full time working mum. And there would be many an occasion when I was left at home, I'd walk home on my own after school. From the age of about seven, it was not far it was only across the road, but I'd get my way home. And then I'd be home for about half an hour on my own and then spend the majority of the summer holidays either in kind of like her staff room at work, she worked in hospital, or on my own at home. So there was quite a bit of that going on. But emotional support wise, only looked back now and see it in a completely different light. You know, if you'd have asked me 1015 years ago, I would have said no, there was loads of emotional support. But now actually, I think the emotional support went the other way. I think I offered her more emotional support than she ever really truly offered me. Which is sad to reflect on

Alison Cebulla 13:19

is when it is when did you realize that when when did that start happening for you?

Harriet Shearsmith 13:24

I think I started really, it's about acknowledging it was more I think there were moments of clarity every so often, even from when I was little. But I think I started to really acknowledge how difficult my relationship and how uncomfortable my relationship with my mum was when I had kids. And as those kids grew from being babies where you're so grateful for any kind of support. And then when they got that bit bigger, and I started to notice the way she spoke to them, and I think no, you did that to me and I don't like it. And then yeah, exactly. It was when I could see the cycle repeating with my own children, and my mom actually lived with us when my kids were younger, so I could see it 24/7 And only started to really think gee, no, actually, this was my experience as a child, and it's not going to be yours.

Anne Sherry 14:20

Well, do you.

Alison Cebulla 14:22

I mean, if you feel comfortable, do you have an example of something that she might have? Like what kinds of things were being sad? Like, were they mean, were they judging? What What were the flavor?

Harriet Shearsmith 14:35

Yeah, I mean, it varied so much towards the end before we actually became a strange. There would be a lot of especially with my eldest child where she would sort of take him to aside and say no, I don't think that daddy is the right man for mommy, and

Anne Sherry 14:59

daddy Kid, how old was your son?

Harriet Shearsmith 15:02

How old would he have been at the time he would have been? Seven, eight.

Anne Sherry 15:07

Holy cow.

Harriet Shearsmith 15:08

Yeah. And I remember not long after we'd asked her to move out of the annex that we'd custom built for her. She, she'd pulled my five year old at the time aside and said to her, will you come and look at houses with me because mommy's making me leave. And I'm very sad. And my five year old came in and was like, moremore, which is what they called her says that she's got to leave and that you're forcing her and I was like, that's kind of true. So yes, we'll have a conversation about that. But you know, it, it was those kinds of examples. And we actually only found out after we'd asked her to leave, when my eldest started to open up to some of the things that she'd said to him. And just encouraging them to lie to us from when they were tiny. You know, my eldest a couple of weeks ago, actually said to me, you know, when you and daddy went away that time and left me with more and more, and I was like, Well, yeah, because she was an adult that lived in the house. And I think we'd gone away for two nights, and said, Yeah, that would be fine. You know, I didn't go to school, then. No. And he said, Yeah, no, I was I was a bit sad on the morning. So I said, I didn't want to go on Mamaw just brought me home. And I, we didn't know, we didn't, no idea. And this is going back like five years ago, and he remembered it. And he comes out every so often with things that were said to him that we still haven't yet discovered. But in particular, she zoned in on him, because him and I are very alike when I was a child. And I can see that is a result of having my mum being so heavily involved in the first eight years of his life.

Anne Sherry 16:53

Right? Wow. Well, I

Alison Cebulla 16:55

have a small amount we lived with my dad's parents for a little bit when I was in kindergarten. And this resulted in my parents getting divorced.

Harriet Shearsmith 17:07

Oh, yeah. I couldn't really

Anne Sherry 17:11

do you like this is around coming to those decisions, because it isn't just like, Oh, God, the light bulb, you know, the light bulbs are going off. But like, just because as a therapist, I do work with people that we spend months, maybe Oh, well over a year, trying to make that discernment. Because it's such a big deal to say, we're done. We have to We can't be we're not going to be in relationship anymore. And of course, it makes no sense to the the are they the aggrieved party? Who see all that damage? I mean, because there's really the reason you're doing it is there's no insight on this to any of their workers.

Alison Cebulla 17:52

Understand, right?

Anne Sherry 17:53

So you're in there, it's just this continuous, like, you know, I feel great about it. And then it's like, you know, curled up in a ball crying because it's like, is this the right thing to do? How can I do you know, just so just because this isn't talked about enough that people are, you know, watching your Instagram, it's like, you get those things, it's your only Mom and Dad, you have to stay in contact with them, you know, that kind of like, just suffer it. They raised you, so you owe them. Yeah, so just that process for people.

Harriet Shearsmith 18:23

It's really difficult, I think. And I spoke about it actually today on my Instagram, saying that when I, when I was in labor with my second child, I'd already started to see massive fractures. And there's only 19 months between my boys, my two eldest, and I'd already started to see massive fractures, where to be honest, I didn't particularly want her with me and for our, for our first child, it was a given that my mom would be there. And my mom was almost like the third person involved. She was there constantly. And it was a given she'd be there for the birth. And it was a given that she'd be, you know, involved in all the conversations. And so which now I look back is so weird. But I was so enmeshed with my mother. And it had been us since I was four years old. And I've always been reminded, it's me and you. It's just me and you against the world, which is not a healthy thing to be saying to a child. Anyway, it's very much how I was raised. And I remember being in labor with my second child and thinking, I don't want to hear and there was no way that I could express that there was no way that I could say no, and I was speaking to another therapist who said, actually, when you feel you can't say no, when you feel that you can't put up any boundary, that's a massive red flag. And I started to see that and it took another 10 years before I could finally call time on it and bluntly put, it took 10 years and my husband saying, Okay, I think I'm done. I can't cope with this anymore of Wow. So he took a real sort of destruction of my family that I'd worked so hard to create and we built an annex, I never moved out of my childhood home, I was very much raised with this. Children who kind of move away from their parents or who leave their parents, and perhaps need to put their parents in a home because their parents for whatever reason, they can't be there 24/7 To look after their parents are abandoning them, and are really awful humans, and now, that's insane. And I remember, woman, couple of doors down from us, she was taken really ill and her adult daughter actually did make the decision to put her in an elderly people's home and she went and visited her all the time. But she could not have her move in with her and guarantee that she'd be there. She was really poorly and she was also had dementia, she was failing. She couldn't be there and neither could her husband because they both work full time to offer mum, the support that she needed. And my mum just went on and on about it. You know, what an ungrateful, awful person she was and

Alison Cebulla 21:00

actually had some layer. Yeah, it's gonna happen to her. Yeah, I constantly

Harriet Shearsmith 21:04

had these messages, right from the age of three or four of how it's super important that you look after your parent, how it's, the better way to do it is how they do it on the continent where people move, you know, people will live multi generationally at home. And, you know, you might have four or five generations and the matriarch is really, that's how we should all be, and it just wasn't going to work for us. And those messages reaffirmed so constantly, and the only time I ever did pluck up the courage to kind of say tonight I did a YouTube video about this one I talked about my estrangement video, when I talked about my establishment story, the only time I ever plucked up the courage to sort of say to her, Okay, you said you wanted to help me and Adam, get onto the property ladder, I would really grateful to to accept that help. And I think it is time that maybe we move out. We've got the kids now. And I just think we struggle. And she'd said to me, You're abandoning me, you're doing it, you're leaving me. And that was it was like everything I'd ever been taught, came crashing at me. And I'd said to him, like, we can't leave, I tell you, the better way to do things would be to build her an annex. And then we can have our space. Because we'd never even just sat on the sofa, just the two of us until gone 10 o'clock at night because she'd be sat there as well. Or we'd have to go and sit somewhere else. We've never had those normal couple moments unless we took ourselves out or away from our homes. And I just wanted some kind of distance between us from about nothing. This is going back about five years, I'd realized that actually we couldn't continue as we were and the greatest solution would be for us to build her an annex.

Alison Cebulla 22:50

Can you just borrow United States listeners? That's not actually a word that we use over here? The mother in law? Yeah, help us understand what you're talking about. Yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 23:02

And annex is an additional property on our house. So I don't know if you guys ever used the term granny flat. Yeah, we do. Yeah. So an annex is a granny flat. So we built her an entire house. She has a small there is a small bungalow now built on our, at the back of our property, we converted what was the space where our garage was got it? And created the kitchen

Anne Sherry 23:25

and like where she tirely independently. Okay, so you don't have time together.

Alison Cebulla 23:32

That comes into my head. Yeah, are they're all living in the axon. Oh, yeah. The Nazis. Yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 23:41

No, it's, it's a complete like, so she designed the whole thing as well. So she had a living space, a kitchen, a bathroom, a bedroom, all of it completely designed and she would still come over and say to me, okay, well, one of our agreements was that you'd cook me dinner every night. Yeah, I would cook her dinner every night kind

Alison Cebulla 24:05

of cooking dinner. We didn't get to ask you this fun fun. Which is like, what was your latchkey meal as a kid something that if you were left to your own devices that you would make

Harriet Shearsmith 24:19

Goodness me. I tell you something that I used to do. I used to get I think powdered icing sugar and add a bit of lemon juice to it. I used to just sit and eat that. I used to just sit and eat. And yeah, he just had to

Anne Sherry 24:35

try that one day. Okay, I don't know what we have with a ship. Yeah,

Harriet Shearsmith 24:43

I yeah, I used to do that. And then food wise. I think proper food wise. There was almost always something that would have either been cooked or just wait for my mom. I used to love super noodles. I don't know if you guys get them over there. They're just like, an instant ramen. Yeah, yeah, so I used to make those quite a lot. But what I used to do when I came home was make myself a bowl of icing sugar and just sit and eat amazing.

Anne Sherry 25:10

One of the best that we've heard that

Alison Cebulla 25:13

like, for me, I developed a sugar addiction coming out of my childhood. And for me, it was definitely self soothing. Do you think it had that quality for you as well?

Harriet Shearsmith 25:21

Oh, yeah, completely to be sorted just to, like overeating kind of thing. I used to do that a lot. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 25:29

yeah. And yeah, I remember eating a rash

Anne Sherry 25:32

from back just knickers. Yeah. And my mom was like, you're gonna get really fat. If you keep eating those. I was like, Well, you could fucking hug me or something. Maybe. Maybe just show me.

Alison Cebulla 25:45

Yeah.

Anne Sherry 25:47

Any connection between me eating an entire bag? I probably would have pushed her away. I would have been like, too late. I've got Snickers now. Yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 25:55

Yeah, exactly. It's a substitute for that for that affection. That's just not coming. Yeah, yes.

Alison Cebulla 26:01

So Harriet, the way that I Found You was that I was watching the read table talk, which I frickin love read table talk. It feels my soul. I love that. It's like grandma. You know, granddaughter and you know Jada Pinkett Smith Willow. And what's the grandma's name? Okay, granny. I don't know. Okay, um, okay. Um, and so they were interviewing Jennette McCurdy about her book. I'm glad my mom died, which Dan and I both read and loved. And I saw that you had commented about your own experience with a strange man. And I'm, you know, her book has been the number one best seller for the last five or six weeks.

Anne Sherry 26:50

It's Adams striking a chord. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 26:52

Why? What? Why you think that this book is resonating so much right now?

Harriet Shearsmith 26:57

I think you know, for a start, I think being being a childhood star. Always Garner's a little bit of interest people I am what's you know, yeah. What, what has she got to say as a childhood star? Because there are so many childhood stars who appear to have had some real damage done. And we wonder why then we wonder what's happened. We're fascinated by it, as opposed to actually changing the system to protect them better. We're just finding it. But I think Jeanette book has had such popularity on top of that, because it's such an under discussed topic. Like I saw the comments when she first announced her book on her feed. It was like, Oh, my gosh, how can you say this about your mom? This is so disrespectful and people were then replying under that, like, dude, have you read the book and mom literally sexually assaulted her, like, physically assaulted her emotionally abused her for years? Like, read the book or come back? Because on her yeah, like, Who are you defending here? And yet, people were still coming in droves, then we could call it something else. And then when people started to actually discuss the content of the book, that's when the narrative kind of changed. And people were like, oh, okay, well, okay. And yet still, interestingly, what I saw so often being commented upon, was the, where she'd had the breast checks and the internal checks. And because that was a type of sexual abuse, so people were quick to latch on to that or where she'd been physically forced to sleep on the floor, and yet a complete dismissal or most of the emotional abuse that she suffered for, like decades. And it was almost like, oh, yeah, that happened. And that, yeah, that happened. But this is what's really shocking. And yeah, of course, she's got every right to now say that she's glad her mom's dead because of this, not because of the way that her mom emotionally abused her, it's actually they were equally damaging. They, if anything, the emotional abuse more so because it was so kind of covert and so insidious. It's just that hidden, silent abuse that people very rarely pick up on it, you know, and she discussed how it destroyed her relationship with other women and how she made friends with one of her co stars. And that was the first woman she'd ever been able to connect with. Just so many ways in which I think people can relate to that, but feel afraid to acknowledge that they can relate to that, because society tells her that we should respect by parents, and all of that. And actually, respect is something that is given. If it's given back to you. It's not an automatic, you know, you don't respect somebody if they're treating you poorly. You don't owe somebody if they're treating you poorly, regardless of whether they're blood or not. But that's something that our society hasn't quite caught up with yet. And I think that is why this this did so well, because it resonates with so many people that are just afraid to talk about it.

Anne Sherry 30:00

I'm totally i, we talked about this. I mean, this is sort of why our podcast is here, like emotional neglect is a really, really difficult one because it's not. This is not downgrading, like physical abuse or sexual abuse. But just like you said, that is a thing that actually happened, you know, but this this emotional abuse, just it, it's like a poison that just that you don't die from necessarily, but it just goes into everything. Your thoughts, your beliefs, how you feel about yourself.

Alison Cebulla 30:34

Yeah, when it comes to the book and genets experience, which if you're listening, drop everything and go look up everything immediately. Yeah. And I think listen to it, because she reads it and she's an actress, so she's amazing. And her comedic timing is just dialed. But so there's the there's the emotional abuse that we're seeing in the book, we're seeing the berating the training her how to have a anorexia, etc, etc, the constant belittling, but to your point and the neglect, you can't see. So every time the mom focused on genets body instead of what Jeanette was feeling was neglect. And so her entire childhood, she did not get one instance of her mom actually caring how she was doing. Yeah, right. And that is so harmful, and you can't see it, it's not a thing to see it doesn't exist. And it does so much damage. Harry, I don't know if you if that was part of your journey as well.

Harriet Shearsmith 31:41

I think it was in different ways. For me, it was very much the enmeshed mum, where she just couldn't see where she ended. And where I began, I was never my own person. In fact, I don't think I've ever been my own person until the last couple of years. And now I'm trying to have to work out who I actually am.

Alison Cebulla 32:02

And I have you found out.

Harriet Shearsmith 32:05

I'm working on it.

Anne Sherry 32:07

Instagram looks pretty authentic. And I enjoy watching your reel very much.

Harriet Shearsmith 32:19

I'm working on it. And I think this is what people don't realize that emotional abuse, whether it be that neglect where you know, you are totally unimportant, or whether it be that enmeshment, or whether it be that that narcissistic trait that your parent has, however, that may take form or that emotional, just immaturity from them. However, those things may take form. The effects of them are so long lasting. And I don't think I think that's what people don't realize is I guess I'm 33 now, and I'm still kind of having to work out. Okay, well, is that do I like that? Or am I just trying to people please for that? Because that's how I've been raised to be? Do I want to do that? Or am I just not saying no to it because I don't want to upset somebody

Alison Cebulla 33:05

so hard to tell,

Harriet Shearsmith 33:08

to tell the things that you end up having to deal with in your adult life. Whereas somebody who has a secure emotional upbringing, with appropriate boundaries, appropriate levels of affection, appropriate parenting, will already have those things in place where they feel secure in who they are as a person. And that insecurity lasts and people don't realize that.

Anne Sherry 33:34

Yeah, when a bit too, we often like so many people have this like there are so many different degrees it doesn't have necessarily need to go to the point of a strange met, to say I gotta do some updating in this relationship with my parents or, I mean, this is why get into therapy. If it doesn't feel right. Just go explore it. You know, you don't have to, it doesn't necessarily have to go to a strange meant you may just learn to use your voice more. Check out some things. Allison, you've done some incredibly brave conversations with your parents that my dad is deceased and my mom has dementia. So those aren't gonna happen. My parents went to therapy. So yeah, the parents went to therapy, they did their work. So yeah, it makes it go all kinds of ways but do your personal work, because because they're rewarded a lot of these. I think in parental FIDE children situations, you may develop these extreme strategies, people pleasing, overworking, you know, getting tons of accolades at work, or, you know, wherever, like you're so amazing. You always show up and doted on you're exhausted and like this feels like shit. So all those strategies that are like you're such an amazing person, and it's like, but I'm dead inside or I hate myself or I don't. I don't want to. Yeah, so those are not just because it Like society's telling you, these are your awesome. If it doesn't feel awesome, go check it out.

Harriet Shearsmith 35:06

Thanks, doc. I think, to your point about having those difficult conversations, I think it's so important to have those. But I think it's also important to know that actually, if those conversations are not going to go well, and those conversations are going to go the way that my conversations with my mom when then it's absolutely okay to step away from that and protect your peace and put in place those boundaries that say, Okay, well, we're not going to have this relationship, then I never intended to become estranged from my mom. Right. And I think that's something that perhaps, doesn't come across as often in my content. And it is something that I talked about on YouTube. But I, when I first spoke to my mom about moving out of the house that we built, it was a case of Look, I need you to move out because this is destroying my life. And we're all really unhappy. No, she referred to it as the shed. And I will be it's a custom built house that took all of my financial savings.

Anne Sherry 36:10

But that's now, yeah, yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 36:13

Like she she hated it there until I asked her to leave it. And then it was like the only place that she wanted to be. And I, you know, I'd sat down with her and said to her, Look, we have this horrible relationship, we can't be in the same room together without it being awful, she would come over and I remember she'd come over to wish my husband happy birthday, which is hilarious, because she hated him. And she'd come over to say happy birthday to him. And she'd said, Where's Adam? And I was just sat in my snug. And I'd said to her, Oh, I'm not sure what you're doing. And she said, What do you mean, what am I doing a little bitch, my five year old was sat next to me. And these are the kinds of behaviors like they were our interactions, we couldn't even have proper conversations, she might be racist, or homophobic at the dinner table, I would call it out because she'd done it on purpose to get a rise from me in front of the kids. And then it would, it would just keep going round and round in a cycle. And I pointed these things out to her and said, Look, I need you to move out, this is not going to work. And you know, we're gonna set you up financially so that you want for nothing, so that you have everything that you would have, if you'd sold your house to a total stranger, you will be so you know, well looked after and everything and then I'll be able to come and visit you. And the response was No. Wow. No, and she would rather lose access to me and my children then lose her control over me and my children. And that was what it came down to.

Anne Sherry 37:44

Wow. Yeah. So there's the clarity in the class isn't gonna work? Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 37:51

In interviews with, with Jeanette on various podcasts that I've been listening to, they asked her, you know, what do you think? What kind of mental conditions do you think your mom had? And she said, that obviously you can't really diagnose a person from abroad, but she said her therapists have said that her mom probably had a combination of narcissism, borderline personality disorder and bipolar altogether. What do you what do you think was going on? Or is going on for your mom?

Harriet Shearsmith 38:22

I again, you can't diagnose without a being a professional, and be actually having that person willingly coming and sitting down with you because I think even professionals you know, my therapist has also said narcissistic, she also said sociopath, she said, narcissistic narcissism and that narcissistic personality, but again, she she would not make a diagnosis without having her in the seat if you like, but what I say to people, is you don't need to be a zoo. ologists to identify that that is a tiger. Yes. You do not need to be a psychologist, if you do your research properly to identify that that's a narcissist or at the very narcissistic traits and personalities. You don't have to be diagnosing somebody with a complex personality disorder. You can be saying, Okay, that is a narcissistic trait. And I'm not going to have it around me and I think it's, I read a brilliant book called, it's not to you. You're not crazy. It's your mother. By Daniel Morrow,

Anne Sherry 39:34

you had a great you had a great list of these are the books I was reading. And I was like, Okay, I gotta write all these down. Yeah,

Harriet Shearsmith 39:40

if you can get hold of that book. Definitely do because that one was it's you're not crazy. It's your mother and it's all about narcissistic mothers. And it was like, she'd had a camera on my life. And at the beginning of it, she says, if it was waddles like an assisted duck, and it quacks Like a narcissistic, it's a narcissistic duck. It's a duck. And I just it really struck me because I thought, You know what, actually, I would point out to my child, that that type of animal might have a qualification to give me that it you know what I mean? And I think you can apply the same thing there. No, you're not actually diagnosing them. And you're not saying this person is you're saying I believe this person is because of data data and the behavior that's that's been shown to me. And when I read and research about covert narcissism and enmeshed mothers, my mum could not be more those personality traits.

Alison Cebulla 40:42

And what are those traits?

Harriet Shearsmith 40:45

So, for enmeshment, it's often a lack of understanding of where that where you end and where that person begins. So like, for example, if I didn't like a type of food, but my mom liked it, she was completely baffled by that. upon occasion, like she'd be like, Oh, no, you like that food? I'm like, No, you like that food? Or she'd buy me things that she liked. And I'd be like that. I don't like that. I've not. I've no interest in that. You do. Yep. And for covert narcissism. It's exactly as it says. It's very covert, and very sneakily. It's that you know, when you think of a narcissist, I think people automatically think of someone who's very vain someone who's very sort of presumes a lot and is I'm everything's about me. And that was not necessarily the case with my mum, she could be incredibly manipulative, very underhand, she would say things that were kind of very backhanded. So it might sound like it was a compliment, but actually, when you reassess it from a different light, that's not a compliment, that's an insult. That's just a way of knocking you down a peg or two, like she would frequently say, the money I spent on your education, I would be like, but I'm not stupid. And she was only joking, darling. Or she would say things to me, like you're just like your father when she really wanted to hurt. And I was raised believing that my father was the worst human on the planet. So to be told, you're just like, that person was such a cruel thing to say to a young child, and I'm talking for five and maintaining that control through manipulation, maintaining that power over somebody that are all things that she had done and

Alison Cebulla 42:39

how it's a it's a power thing. It's feeling that role and get I'm gonna put an on the spot for a second. I hope that's okay. And but so an internal family systems, and

Anne Sherry 42:55

that's big in the UK, actually, as well starting to be across the hall. Yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 43:00

I'll also send you an IV. And can you kind of help us understand what's going on for someone with narcissism? You know, from her side, what's going on? Yeah,

Anne Sherry 43:11

I mean, there's little it sounds like this modality of therapy. It's it assumes that we all have a self that maybe is connected to divinity or whatever, like something bigger than us. And those have the qualities of kindness, calm, clarity, courage, it's like when you really feel like I am lined up and from that, having access to that this is who I am. You would have no interest in controlling anybody at all, you know, you would you celebrate and whoever's around you and it would be more to be in relationship with somebody who what we call a self LED. You'd want to know who that's so interesting. Like, probably how you do with your children like, oh my gosh, look who you're blossoming into. This is amazing. Tell me more about you. Wow, you have those preferences? What do you like? That's how you would show up and granted we're all going to blend with you no defenses, but when you grow up with a narcissist, or I don't know how you become a narcissist, you probably it's probably a long line of them. You know that if your self has not been brought online, it is way too painful to live. I'm not loved. I don't belong. Like all the greats that you get in childhood, like I have value. But if that's not nourished, you have to develop all these what we call defenses or ways of being and so I don't know the narcissist one is it's really hard to uncover who that person is. There's probably so much fear that I just have to destroy everybody around me because I don't know who I am. And it is terrifying to for people to be themselves I just it's I call them light snuffers Almost they did go eyeball people up, you know, how dare you have a light that is such a threat to me. So they live I mean to live in that system, like if they really, this is why I think a lot of therapists are there's out there like they're not going to change the amount of work. I have to come from a place of if somebody decides like, I am a total fuckup I'm gonna go do my work. It would be years and years and years and it's really hard to do that. So I it's just,

Alison Cebulla 45:28

they often end us. Yeah, manipulating the therapist. I had an ex boyfriend.

Anne Sherry 45:33

Oh, yeah, they're not gonna sit you can I can feel them a mile away those kinds. Yeah, I mean, I can stand next to somebody and feel it like in Starbucks or something. I'm like, No, I'm gonna give myself a little more distance on that. Major feelers for that. Yeah. So dark

Harriet Shearsmith 45:49

energy, isn't it?

Alison Cebulla 45:50

Yeah. that I had when I lived in the Netherlands. He, it's so funny. Like, a few months after dating him, I actually called my mom because she and I have a great relationship. And I was like, Mom, it just doesn't feel right. Like it was really exciting at first. But this and this and this are happening. And she she was great. She like quietly emailed me the Wikipedia entry for Borderline Personality Disorder. And she was like, I'm not diagnosing anyone, but I just read this, I don't know. And he felt like, you know, eight out of eight, you know, I was like, Oh, I was like, You should go to therapy. And so he was like, okay, and he went to therapy, and he would come back home from therapy. And he would be like, Well, my therapist says you're the problem. Like he would manipulate that. You don't I mean, I was like, I wouldn't do

Anne Sherry 46:42

lying off, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it just is. To trust yourself, though. If it doesn't feel good. If it doesn't, like if you really are you it's sad, I think carry it like I did, or I can't remember where but if it's like, something if it doesn't feel good, and your system if it doesn't feel right, like do trust that or, like trust your gut to know yourself. Exactly, exactly. But I mean, what your talk, I mean, how hard it is, like the layers and layers and layers. I mean, what I hear you saying is like that material was inserted into your brain and your psyche. From day one, you know, you will not be separate. There's no differentiation, you know? Yeah. Very much for parents to go through grief. Yeah, yeah. You gotta let your kids go. I mean, the day they're born, is the day you need to start letting them go in a way like this is a separate human. And that's a great

Alison Cebulla 47:40

segue. Yeah. How are you? Parenting differently? So you, you have this book with parenting tips, you have great content about parenting on your Instagram and YouTube? How, what are you doing differently? I think everything. All of it. Just

Anne Sherry 47:59

one ad. Yeah, whatever she did I

Harriet Shearsmith 48:02

I think, you know, one of the things that's really important to me is that I apologize to my kids if I get things wrong, because they do because I'm human, and I'm not perfect. And in particular, with my eldest, you know, he frustrates the life out of me. He's 11, nearly 12. And he has got that meal. So I've teenage attitude now. And I will quite often lose my temper because everything's going on all at once. And I just said, Well, you just go and do this and be like, Whoa, I'm doing it. And rather than say to him, Hey, don't speak to me like that. I'm the parent. I'm the authority. I will say to him, Okay, actually, I'm sorry that I shouted at you there. But do you understand why I'm getting cross because you're not listening to me? And you're not doing what I've asked you to do? And I'm not asked you to do it. Because I mean, I've asked you to do it, because perhaps it's homework, you're gonna get into trouble if you don't. Right, right. And we have that open communication where with my mum, she used to say to me and come to me with anything but then everything would be remembered to be used against me. We have that open communication where they can come to me about absolutely anything and they know I won't answer any question my middle son who is nine has asked all the questions. And he he is heavily involved with football, which for you guys, the soccer he's and he's in that kind of lad culture, the boys that play after him and do their football training after him Rs 1560. So he has many thing that I am like, Oh, I'd rather not have that conversation with you at nine but okay, let's do it. I will answer you openly and honestly, it's probably gonna scare you. But let's go. And I will speak to them with open honest communication, but I will not expect them to hold space for my emotion. I'll hold space for them. And that's a huge difference between what happened with my relationship with my mum. Because I was from, again, the age of four, I was her therapist, and I could tell you what happened in court when I was seven, between my mom and my dad. And we had like a little nickname for my dad's second wife. And I, all of these things that I just shouldn't have been privy to, or if I hadn't been privy to it should have been because I was being a little beasty and eavesdropping, not because she'd sat me down to tell me about them. And that's a huge difference. So allowing my children, the luxury of being children, whilst they can, is a huge thing for me. But equally, giving them the respect and the opportunity to set their own boundaries, you know, I will frequently say to my husband, you've just walked in their bedroom knock. Because you know, even though they're only like, seven 911, and he's like, only to knock quote or not come like, because it's their room, it's their space, not great. You know, it's these tiny, tiny little things that let them know, you're your own individual. You know, I never I have my relationship, especially with my oldest, if he snaps back at me, or is kind of has an attitude with me, I will say to him, please don't have that attitude with me. Because I will have it back with you. And then he will sort of look at me and be like, oh, yeah, I kind of was in the wrong there. And he will respond much better to that. Whereas with his daddy does know that if he copped an attitude with his dad, his dad will be more authoritarian. So I think having experienced that lack of boundary completely, I tried to give them that, and try to give them the opportunity to set those boundaries, but equally remind them that I am the parent and not their friend. I think that's really, oh, you

Anne Sherry 51:49

did such a good one on that. Yeah. Like you are. Yeah, yeah. But she,

Harriet Shearsmith 51:55

she used to say to me, you're not my friend. I'm your parent night. You know, that is true, but then would act like my friend. So it was such conflicting messages right from when I was tiny. And, you know, she would say to me, I'm not your friend. I'm your mum. But it would be used as a threat. Threat the right word. Yeah, threat is the right word. It would be we're not equals, I'm above you, as opposed to I'm your safe space. And you're not mine. And that's what that should mean. I can I have a wonderful relationship with my kids? You know, like my eldest at the moment, we're watching Stranger things together, against

Anne Sherry 52:37

my guys. 10. And we went, we've gone through all four seasons. Yeah,

Harriet Shearsmith 52:40

I started off with Season One. And I was like, you can only watch season one, because the other is going to be too scary for you. And then I was like, That's so mean, I'll learn much too. And then I was like, You know what, nothing bad happens in three. And then people started melting. And I was like, and then I was like, you know, In for a penny, and for pound my guy. Yeah, by the time I was like, a third of your age, I was watching all sorts with my mum. So like, let's go with it, we can adopt some behaviors. And we sat and we sit and watch it together, and we have such a good time doing it. And I really cherish those evenings with him, especially when his siblings have gone to bed. And my husband, again, he has Marvel with Ruben. And he really cherishes the opportunity to watch the Marvel films and to go to the cinema one on one and have those one on one times with them. And he has one on one with my middle child for football. And we all have these little things that are very, like a friendship relationship, you know, me and Ruben, I'll send each of them pictures of Stranger Things. And I love that, but equally, he understands that I'm his mum, and that I am his safe space, but I wouldn't cross that boundary and go and speak to him. If I was having a problem with his dad, I wouldn't go and speak to him. Whereas my mum very much did that with me. And it's a huge difference. That I think is so important because your kids are not your therapists. They're not your friends that are there to support you emotionally. You're there to support them. Absolutely. Yeah. So well, there's

Anne Sherry 54:08

an emotional intelligence. There's where we get emotional intelligence Right? Like no,

Alison Cebulla 54:18

but who do you go to you know, like instead of talking to your cuz obviously, there's there's some part of your mom that maybe was too damaged to understand that there that she could have asked someone else for help or something, you know, there's some there was something happening. Whereas for you, I'm like, Well, I'm going to, I'm going to get my needs met or it's like an acknowledgement that you have the needs. I think, enmeshed parents often don't understand that the need is there. And so it just leaks out everywhere because those needs don't go away. They just kind of grab people. You know what I mean? So, Harriet, like, what, how do you get your needs met instead of taking that out on your kids?

Harriet Shearsmith 54:57

I go to a therapist. Yes, you Alright, therapists

Alison Cebulla 55:17

this episode is a little bit longer than our usual episodes. So I just wanted to take a little shake and stretch, break shaking is a great way to release tension in the body and stored up stress. So if you are in a good spot, you can shake it out, you can stretch your jaw, maybe massage your face, roll your shoulders back, and maybe even reach up to the sky. And yeah, just take a few deep breaths

Anne Sherry 56:03

my ex husband's from England and going to therapy. So this was years and years and years ago, but therapy was it was like you yanks or you're addicted to your therapy and talking. Like it was. No, I agree. Yeah, but yeah. Okay, yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 56:26

I'm trying to think who else? So I know, I have one of the close friend who has a therapist.

Anne Sherry 56:34

You're weird to us, if you don't have a therapist. They're not going to therapy. Like you,

Harriet Shearsmith 56:44

you only go to therapy rarely in the UK, in my experience, if there is something wrong with you, and you know, I'm traumatized, like, literally, no apologies made for it, I am needing therapy, I have had so much over the last five years that I need thing. Actually, over the last 30 years, really, if I'm honest, you know, and especially it's all come to a head in the last two or three years, I need that outlet. And that is why I have a therapist. But over here in the UK, it is still quite taboo. Quite okay, you only really see a therapist or you only really would speak to somebody whether it be a mental health nurse or something like that, if you had been given kind of the nudge to go and do so. Or if you'd been told that there was a particular reason or you felt there was a particular reason it's not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. I say I only know one other person who's a good friend who who goes to therapy.

Anne Sherry 57:52

Well, emotional neglect, it is so hard to diagnose. I don't even think we have a I don't know if it is a do we use the DSM? I don't know what's used over there. But it's like I don't even know if we have it as it really should be. An emotional neglect should be a thing, you know,

Alison Cebulla 58:11

because it's a really is haunting Europe, I forget what it's called. But they there's like a whole thing in psychology where they confirmed that chronic or complex complex PTSD is a thing. Whereas here in America, we didn't do that. So

Anne Sherry 58:28

that's wrong. I did read about that. Yeah, there was. Oh, that's cool. You need to become a therapist. Yeah, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 58:37

And for our listeners, complex PTSD is is just exactly what we're talking about, like having a narcissistic mom that says a whole bunch of little manipulative things over and over and over. That's so you instead of having like PTSD from a car accident, which is like one big thing, complex, PTSD is like tons of little things added up over time. So which is it's real

Anne Sherry 58:58

childhood lasts forever. Like, my life is like zooming by at this point, but like childhood, a day in the life of a child. It's like 10 years to us, I think. So people don't understand how long they were swimming in that soup. It was a long time. And there's no quick fix to this, like I can imagine here at you. I think you'd said I've been going to therapy for two, three years or

Harriet Shearsmith 59:22

so. I've been going to therapy for about a year. I think I probably needed it for about three. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 59:27

I took the courage. Good for you. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 59:32

yeah. How can parents heal if they have a legacy of abuse on their family?

Harriet Shearsmith 59:38

I think it's really difficult. And I think again, it goes back to having that therapy or if you are not in the position to have therapy. I speak to so many people who will message me and say, Look, I'd love to have therapy, but I can't afford it. I can't afford a therapist. Man, I don't know what it's like for you guys in the US. Over here. You can we have the The NHS National Health Service, so our health care is free. But you would have to see a doctor like a GP to start with to be told, okay, yes, I can put you on the waitlist for mental health services. And that can take a couple of years. So you can get yourself a private therapist, but they cost a lot of money. And if you're not in the position to do that, then I think one of the things that I have just started to do is I've got, it's called the positive planner. And it's like a daily journaling, you can get free apps that you can do on your phone. But this is an actual physical journal, and every morning you write down some of your intentions and a mantra that you going to pick up for that day to remind yourself, and then on the evening, you reflect on okay, what are you grateful from today? And that's something that I have started doing that I'm finding helpful, because I'm somebody who my therapist said to me covered like, last week, she's like, I feel like you dwell a bit on the negative or

Anne Sherry 1:01:02

like, yeah,

Harriet Shearsmith 1:01:08

I can really, I can really see myself in a negative mind frame. And I can do it with ease, because that was my mat. That was that was an mind frame I grew up in making no bones about it, that that was my life, growing up with my mother and living with my mother until my 30s was a whole host of negativity. So it is my natural mindset. And I can overthink myself into hysteria, with minimal ease. With minimal effort, I can think myself into Syria. And I think for me to have something where I can reflect on at the end of the day and say, Actually, no, I was grateful for this, no matter how small it might be, it might be that coffee that I got to drink while it was still warm, it doesn't matter. It's something to be grateful for that happened that day that made me smile, I woke up and my cat was laying on my chest and it made me smile, tiny, tiny things like that, that can make a difference. Just to look back on them and remind yourself that actually there was some good through the day, I think that can be quite helpful. And then if you have the opportunity speaking to a friend, a trusted friend, I don't trust particularly easily and I think that can be really difficult. So, therapist, but I think if you can have somebody who you can trust, who you can speak to who is another adult who can speak to you on an adult level that can be really healing as well. But looking at the things that you had in your childhood that are not things that you want to repeat, there's no shame in that. I think quite often when I would look back, especially before I really started to say okay, my mum has not done her best here. My mum has been really toxic. And this is not okay. Before I could bring myself to do that, because I couldn't hear a bad word about her until about five years ago. I couldn't bear it. Probably a bit longer now probably more like six, seven years ago, but I couldn't bear it. And even though I could see a lot of it from about 10 years ago, no one else could acknowledge it. And if they did, they were lying. They were wrong. She was perfect. And when I looked back at things that she had done, and the way that she had behaved around me, I found it really almost like I felt like I was guilty. Like I was betraying her for looking back on my childhood and seeing it as other than perfect because because she tried so hard. She was no single set

Anne Sherry 1:03:37

common trap and therapy that we Yeah, got it. Being able to separate that out. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:03:43

my mom. Yeah. The greater the abuse, the greater the loyalty.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:03:48

Yes, yeah. And so much fierce loyalty to the point where I built her house and it destroyed my life.

Alison Cebulla 1:03:57

Can I ask you a logistical question? How did you get your mom to move out? How does that go down? I am dying to know.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:04:06

Well. So we the way that things had worked was mom had sold us her property. She couldn't actually she couldn't afford to live in a property any longer because we'd been paying the bills for about five years before. We bought it off her. So she actually sold it to us at her mortgage value. And we took an additional sum on top so that we could renovate it because it's in a dire state. And we could build her and annex so when it came to move out. I said okay, the agreement will be as we discussed many times beforehand, that if anything ever went tits up and she decided that she didn't want to live with us or we couldn't make this work. That what we would do would be to re mortgage make sure she had every penny from the property as if she'd sold it to a complete stranger. And she would just move out and that should in theory set her up for life. And that is what I offered. do with her and like I said, she just flat out said no her exactly. I'm not going to accept money like some common prostitute.

Anne Sherry 1:05:09

Wow. She's narcissist, yeah.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:05:17

If she does something she commands me and she just said, No, I'm not gonna send money and I thought, but that's like that'll set you up for life like, I can't, if I want to sell this house now, I could literally just kick you out and offer you nothing. And I would never do that I'm trying to be a good daughter here. So we had a couple of weeks of me sort of going over to her and saying that this is what I want you to do, can you find somewhere else to live? And she actually contacted a solicitor. And what ensued was a fairly lengthy sort of five, six months legal battle. No, well, yeah, about five months, four or five of her making various demands to stay in the property. And then eventually, when she was told by her solicitor, that is not going to happen, you don't have any kind of physical agreement here, they can kick you out at well, you have to leave, they're offering you what is more than reasonable, she basically put up for an extra amount of money, and said, If you give me this extra amount of money, then I'll go on. So she did, she ended up leaving, I

Anne Sherry 1:06:30

mean, that's the thing like that extra money is like I was

Harriet Shearsmith 1:06:33

the was the winner, he actually said to me, at some point, you're just like your father, you care more about money than you do anybody else. So I'm gonna hit you where it hurts, I'm going to completely destroy you financially so that you'll never be able to recover. And I was like, Okay, go for it. Like I said to my husband, I think what she's overestimated is how much I care in what how much I care about the money versus how much I care about being free. And what it boiled down to was that if I wanted to get my freedom from her, if I wanted to take back control of my own life, then she was going to make that as difficult as physically possible. And I think if I'm honest, I think she really thought that we would not be able to re mortgage and have her removed, and I think that's where she thought things were going to go. But we did in the end, we managed to congratulate Thank you. But she, she she was gonna make it as difficult as she could. And yet the baffling thing to me is that if we could not have afforded this property anymore, if we could have turned around and said, Okay, we're just not going to pay the mortgage anymore, or we can't pay the mortgage or say, Oh, I was incapacitated and couldn't work. So we couldn't pay the mortgage. And the bank had repossessed they wouldn't be stopped from repossessing just because she didn't want to move out. This, right, this was it, you know, these, I think, ultimately, she just wanted to try and cause as much devastation as she could and string it out for as long as she could. And she managed to do that. And you know, when she left, my husband, had sent me up to his mom's house and said, Look, don't be here on the day, she leaves because you know what she will do. And she had stood at the door, knocking on the door, but we were all out. And she'd eventually just given us the key, but she'd had a different she'd had keys cut. So we had to get all the locks changed on all of the property. That was my next question. The last Yeah, everything had to get changed. And then following that, you know, we had no contact from her. But what baffled me and this is again, such a common thing for NASA says, After I'd asked her to leave, we had about 10 days of not speaking to each other at all, because it was a really fraught time. You know, I basically told her I wanted her out. She'd basically refused. Then she'd said to my youngest, mommy's looking, you know, mommy's kicking me out, I'm looking at houses. And we'd stop the kids from going over there anymore. And she's sent me a text message after about 10 days of no speaking other than, you know, sort of the odd. I really need you to move out kind of thing, saying, Hi, Harriet, my Sky TV is not working. Can you come and fix it for me?

Anne Sherry 1:09:30

As if nothing has transpired? Yeah. As they I mean, nothing.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:09:35

Yeah, so classic. And it was actually it was written in this Danny Morrigan book that I was talking about the you're not crazy. It's your mother. She'd actually written something very similar. I think the case that she was looking at, the person had had this massive Rao with their mother and it had got really ugly really nasty, hadn't spoken for about three months and then got a text message out the blue saying hi, and We'd love for you to come and do this. And would you like to go dress shopping with it as if nothing had happened? As if none of it and it's almost like your brain goes? Did we really have that conversation then? And I didn't reply. So she stopped me when she was outside hurry. And this isn't working and just wondering if you could come and fix it and had to say to a mum, I've asked you to leave, this isn't going away just because you've said, No, you you need to leave like, and that's what she said to me. Well, I've lawyered up. And I said to her, Okay, well, we will do the same then. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna need you to leave like I don't want to go down that route. We've offered to be really reasonable and put you in a position you would have been in if you'd have just sold the house anyway. Like everything should be, it would be as if none of this had ever transpired. And, you know, we bought all her new furniture, she'd got a couple of TVs, all of it, like, have it all. I'm not we're not being unreasonable people. We're just saying this isn't working, let's find a way to make our relationship work. And it was a case of No, I'd rather go down this really traumatic route.

Anne Sherry 1:11:05

Wow. Yeah, it is. It's so it's almost like there's a prescription for it. It's like you, once you see it, you're like, Oh, you really get that this person isn't like a complex real human in some way. It is this set of behaviors around control. And if you get more complex, and you know, in having your own life and figuring out who you are, it's like it is that I must increase control. You know, yeah. So and that's why it's hard, I think to call it out. Yeah. Because it becomes like that a lawyering up, I'll destroy you. It's like, Oh, what about all that? Like, it's just me and you against the world? Oh, and I'll tell you,

Harriet Shearsmith 1:11:45

yeah, yeah. I, you know, it's very much that. That kind of, I don't even know the words for it's like, like you say, it's very prescriptive, isn't it? It's that you can almost see it from a mile away that that's, that's how this is going to go and seeing it. Now. I get messages as well, from people who will say to me, Oh, well, I'm actually estranged from my child. And they've cut me off. But I've not done anything. And I don't understand yourself, just the tone of your message, I can tell you what you've done.

Anne Sherry 1:12:24

I haven't I mean, that phrase, I haven't done anything. And I can tell you what you've done.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:12:31

And I know even now mum will stop people to she's done it with a few friends who haven't seen for a while, they'll come up to me and they're like, Oh, my God, or your mom stopped me and like gave me this long hour long story in the middle of a supermarket about how evil you were. And we get that every so often of Oh, yeah, your mom told me that this happened. And it's just doesn't make any sense. I'm like, but that doesn't, it's all lies. Oh, they stole from me. How

Alison Cebulla 1:13:00

do you though, because there's got to be a lot of an end for me to for and to just so much grief in the healing process of realizing what you didn't get. Yeah, that's what have you could have had. So my, you know, my heart goes out to you and your, your healing journey on this. So for

Anne Sherry 1:13:23

being so vocal about it, like giving it a voice, I mean, more and more voices are coming online, and you're one of them and you do it with such. I think what we're hoping to do, it's not as scary as you think, you know, connect with people read books, believe yourself. Believe in yourself. laugh about it, you know, like cry about it with people that it's okay. Find your tribe, really, that you can you know, in lieu of a therapist, because I do I know it's hard. I would say read books, get a group of trusted girlfriends to maybe do a book club together and just meet once a month and just talk about it. I mean, just having your story out there and somebody's going, Oh, me too. That happened. I Oh, I thought it was me, you know, so it doesn't have to therapists or it's great, but there's a lot of ways just connect with each other around this and don't be afraid to tell your truth and be vulnerable. You're actually safer in your vulnerability with good people because we're like, oh, I can't be vulnerable. This I'm gonna just pretend but like the courage is on the other side. You don't have to develop courage to talk about it. The courage will come after you lean in and talk about it with trusted people. So yeah, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:14:37

So are finding

Anne Sherry 1:14:38

people everyone loves to check and see if your parents do a checklist? Yes, check and see if you're a narcissist, too. You might be I don't know. I sometimes I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have some psychopathic tendencies or sociopaths. I do. I don't care about anybody at times. I like everybody and I don't care about anybody.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:15:00

It's actually reasonable, though to be fair, yeah, yeah. I one of the things that I said to my therapist is, how do I know that I'm not the narcissist? How do I know that I'm not the problem. And I get asked this all the time. I actually, it's probably gone live this evening, I have a q&a that I'm answering on my YouTube channel that I've filmed. And that is one of the questions that somebody had asked me and it had been asked repeatedly, how do I know that I'm not the problem? How do I know that I'm not the one in the wrong and that's so common when you've been raised by a narcissist because you're raised to believe that you are the wrong you're almost raised with this kind of inbuilt gaslighting. Yeah. And that's the problem is that you genuinely believe that you are the issue. So when you sit down and you look at narcissism, and you go, no, actually, that's not me at all. That's, I don't do that. And oh, no, I don't do that. And I can might do that a little bit, but not to hurt anyone and not because of that, actually, oh, yeah, no, I think I can see I picked that tray up but and you realize quite quickly, or reaffirm to yourself if you like that you're not the one in the wrong and that you're not the problem. And I think it's so easy to gaslight yourself into thinking that you are the narcissist that you are the problem. That was the first thing that I did when my therapist and she said okay, would you like to just give me an overview of what, what's kind of going on? I was like, absolutely hysterical. The phone is starting to just blab to her about other things as

well moving problems with my marriage. Through my mama. It's true.

Okay, well, we don't need to go too in depth into anything right now. Back at it now. And I think that Paula woman, she must have thought do I really need to take her on? Do I need to. But she did return me grateful that she did take me on but i That was the that was my opening line. I think I'm a nurse. And I really did at the time, all I could think was okay, yeah, it must be me. It must be me. Must be.

Anne Sherry 1:16:57

Yep. And I hope you said this too. If like, if you ask that question, then you're probably not or there's hope, at least if you're like me, there's the hope right there just whatever way that you're coming, you're questioning it is any self

Alison Cebulla 1:17:11

reflection.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:17:13

You have the ability to self reflect, and then take it a step further to seek not just validation, but also to be introspective. And to try and sort out. Okay, however you got to this situation, then the chances are that you might be damaged, but you're not the one that's doing the damaging other than to yourself.

Anne Sherry 1:17:35

Yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 1:17:37

what kind of world are you trying to create with your with your work, you know, you have put yourself out there, I'm a mom, my motherhood is is on display for the public, you know, I have a message, what are you trying to create?

Harriet Shearsmith 1:17:50

My hope, especially when I talk about things like the narcissism and the toxic family relationship is to help other people feel just a little bit less alone. And like I felt when I first went through this year, I have only just recently this year started talking about this online and the response, the response has been overwhelming. But this happened for me in 2020. And I just couldn't find the words, I couldn't talk about it. I didn't talk about it for nearly two new 18 months. Because I thought that I must be the only one that this has ever happened to. And I which is sounds really silly when you say it like that, because of course, you're not the only one that this has happened to you. But it's so taboo. It's so shrouded in shame and guilt. And we need to pull back that veil, we need to stop being shrouded in shame and guilt because, you know, victims of emotional abuse. And as much as I hate thinking of myself in the term of victim, and actually, funnily enough, somebody had left a comment and I did a video about it, where somebody had said, everybody wants to be a victim nowadays. And people who have experienced narcissistic parents or who have been raised by toxic parents, emotionally mature parents, whatever it might be, they are the least likely to want to think of themselves as victims because they are. And they are the least likely to want to think of themselves in the terms of somebody who had an abusive parent, because you cannot understand how difficult it is to get to the place where you can say my childhood was abusive. It takes so much to actually acknowledge that there was abuse to acknowledge that this was last time. It should have been it's so hard. And I think if I can just help somebody step back and say, Okay, I need to I need a better boundary there. And if that doesn't work, then it's absolutely okay for me not to have a relationship with that person. Even though when it comes to Christmas when it comes to Mother's Day, Father's Day, those days if I can make those days a bit more manageable for somebody who thinks that everyone has this perfect, wonderful Hallmark family, when in fact the vast majority of us and don't they And that's what I'd like to put out there. And I'd like to give parents who are perhaps falling into the trap of parental buying their kids, or who are perhaps falling into the trap of repeating that cycle of toxicity. If I can give them a bit of a jolt and say, Oh, hang on a minute. I don't want to do that, and help them find their own ability to be a parent, because God knows none of us are perfect parenting is so hard. And we're all making mistakes all the time, because that's part of parenting. But if we can look at those mistakes and go, actually, you know what, I'm not going to do that again. Or maybe that was a bit harsh, or maybe that was a bit unfair. Maybe that was this that was that. Hopefully, we can all do better for the next generation.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:46

Yeah, great. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:20:47

I like that. Well, let's do it. We're doing it.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:20:52

Just by acknowledging it. We do. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:53

Okay, so now it's the feelings wheel game.

We name a time recently that we felt the feeling and what it feels like in the body. So and tell me when to stop. Stop. And Baris go

Anne Sherry 1:21:22

and go back a little Oh, no embarrass,

Alison Cebulla 1:21:24

let's go. So, as our listeners know, I've been interviewing for different jobs lately, which is a really hard to process. And so the last time I felt embarrassed was I had a series of interviews on Friday of this week that may lead up to a job offer, it seems like we're kind of in the final stages of things. And so I kind of almost like just needed to not eff it up. And getting off the calls. I think I felt embarrassed. Like I was being too much, myself, almost like I probably after that, but I said this, this and this, like I could tell that just me being me and having like actual opinions about the work that I'm an expert in, made them feel uncomfortable at points. And I think that part of my embarrassment went along with like, this very patriarchal and misogynistic, misogynistic part of our culture. Even though I was talking to other women. Studies show that even women don't like other women to be assertive, or, like, have thoughts. So I felt like this real sense of embarrassment and shame of like, I'm too opinionated. I always I always, you know, you come off as too much for people. And like, why can't you just turn it down and get the job offer? And, um, it's been really, it's been, you know, it's been hard. It's been hard to sit with that. But it really was like a sense of embarrassment. And I think it's really a holdover from childhood because I was kind of a loudmouth kid as well. That people did not like that about me. You know, you're talking too much you have too many opinions that a dad and I we get in trouble a lot in school like a lot. So there's some yeah, there's some shame behind that embarrassment. So what it feels like is like I want to cry. It's almost like I want to crumple up into a ball and be as small as possible my body wants to disappear. So embarrassment Yeah, that's a big one you did yeah. All right. Exam stop. Shocked

Anne Sherry 1:23:36

that's one I don't do like nothing shocks

Alison Cebulla 1:23:41

you're too numb.

Anne Sherry 1:23:48

Or like, I don't know. I've just I'm shocked that I'm signed up for like 8000 things like what the fuck is that? Like? I have a thing tonight. Tomorrow okay, there's my shock okay. Okay, there's your shock

like sounds like why are you have so many things to do? I'm just like, I don't know. I have no idea how I've said yes. I don't know who might I need to meet my yes person inside because my No person is really pissed. Like stop signing us up for shit. You don't need to learn Spanish right now. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Alison Cebulla 1:24:31

Yeah. Body

Anne Sherry 1:24:33

m&e. Anger or tension? Like I kind of like want to, like punch my calendar punch the next person who asked me to do something. So maybe I'm a narcissist. I don't know. Yeah. Somebody else's fault. Yeah, yeah. So anyways, that was a long one that was many. Maybe I have more questions than I thought I used to hate this game, Harriet. Now I'm like getting that Anyone

Alison Cebulla 1:25:02

like self, your emotions have emotions.

Anne Sherry 1:25:07

Emotions are having

Harriet Shearsmith 1:25:12

like shots self is got lots of things going on.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:17

Now, oh my god,

Alison Cebulla 1:25:19

I have my finger going around the wheel, okay, when to stop stop out of control, which is linked to stress. Can I have another one

Anne Sherry 1:25:35

it'll take you a lot of places.

Harriet Shearsmith 1:25:40

Out of control passively one of my least favorite, I link it to like that overwhelm that, when there's just so much going on that you feel like everything slipping away from it almost feels like in the body, like a panic attack coming, but not quite there. And that's how I kind of feel it inside is that kind of feeling that everything's slipping away from me that sort of almost like sand slipping through your fingers that you just can't quite grab everything that you need to. And these are metaphorical things that you're trying to grab, trying to grab them. And that kind of friction, that kind of panic and that kind of that that feeling of being out of control of needing to grab onto things and rein them in and get them more organized. And yeah, I feel this quite often. And it's like, my least favorite thing. I know when I've kind of overwhelmed myself when I put too many things on my to do list. And yet simultaneously, that is when I'm at my most most comfortable when I am in control. And when I am, you know, chock a block with things, you know, you said about how I feel shocked that I've allowed myself to have so many things going, if I have to be still for a minute, that's when I find it the hardest. And that's when I feel the most out of control. I feel more in control when my to do list is overwhelming. And when I know that I have the next task to go on to. That's my

Alison Cebulla 1:27:04

time recently, when you felt out of control,

Unknown Speaker 1:27:07

um

Harriet Shearsmith 1:27:12

only probably when I was, oh, I would take my husband's car and it was just a small thing. We turn it with it. It's more stress, I suppose. But we take my husband's car in and I was so frustrated because we knew that it was going to fail. Its mot I don't know if you guys have mot is over there. We do our shows. Yeah, yeah. So we knew it was gonna fail that which meant that we couldn't really insure it, it wouldn't be drivable, we'd have to fix it, which was going to cost us a lot of money. And we'd said to them this needs fixing before you do it, they didn't do it. And that was completely out of my control. I couldn't control what they were going to do. I couldn't control that they were going to charge us this massive bill. And I knew that that was coming. And on top of that, I knew that Edith couldn't go swimming on that day because she's had an ear infection. And on top of that I knew that had three deadlines and on top of that, and on top of that, and on top of that, and it just felt like so much overwhelm so much slipping past me. And it was that one thing that kind of tipped the edge. And I was just like, right, I'm done. I'm done. This dramatic kind of I can't do it anymore. Because there weren't things that I could line up neatly and tasks that I could take off. These were all things that kind of needed my attention all at once. And everybody was kind of looking to me to fix these things isn't sometimes I imagine that that's about that's what's happening because Right, right, right, right. Not necessarily was everyone looking at me, I could have delegated our feed as being upset to my husband, it could have delegated this off, but I felt like I had to deal with it all. And it was that out of control of giving myself too many emotional tasks to be able to function with and to work with. So that was kind of Yeah, that's what it feels like to be out of control.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:56

Good example, Harriet. Yes, really

Anne Sherry 1:28:58

good example.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:59

Thanks for playing the feelings game. Yeah, thanks for sharing your story. Gosh, I just think you know people like you are really changing the world and making a big difference just by owning your truth and being vulnerable. And you know, we're gonna link in the show notes all the ways that people can find you you know, your Instagram, your YouTube, all these things, your book, so check out the show notes, but also it's Toby and roo on Instagram. Yes. And, and get her book you know, follow Harriet because her stuff is so good. So healing and we need to all be having these conversations. So

Anne Sherry 1:29:39

she has a starting ratable fashion sense. I'm like

everything looks good. You make it look so fun. Yeah. I love Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A lot of fun to watch Turn to Instagram Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:30:01

yeah Harry thank you thanks for listening to latchkey urgence and friends. If you like what you heard follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts but especially Spotify and Apple and if you didn't like it just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Cebulla and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai