S2.E5. Peace Begins at Home—F*cking Chat About It!
Chances are you've seen Laura Danger chat about some hard-hitting topics: domestic labor is labor, weaponized incompetence, naming the issues, using data to point to injustices, and community care. Laura has 17.5 million likes on her videos on TikTok—and there's a reason why! Laura, through her work as a certified Fair Play facilitator, educates and advocates for active and engaged partnerships, self-love and the dismantling of the systems that keep us from thriving. She's giving couples and household partners the exact tools and language they need to negotiate care, mental load, emotional labor, and everything else that tends to split us apart and keep us fighting or sulking. Her wisdom could save any of your struggling relationships!
Laura Danger is an educator, community advocate, and millennial parent using her platform to empower overwhelmed caregivers to value their own time and the priceless care labor they provide. She's impassioned, silly, and sincere and she brings equal doses of ambition and realism to her work. She believes we can build a better future...together.
Laura's Instagram: @thatdarnchat
Laura's TikTok: @thatdarnchat
Laura's website.
Show Notes:
Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:06
Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie we are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:18
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal
Anne Sherry 0:27
latchkey ergens are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:43
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:49
Sometimes we were the kids other kids parents warned you about
Alison Cebulla 0:53
sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:03
Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met and we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:11
So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend, you are
Alison Cebulla 1:15
wanted here
Hello, Allison Episode Five is here. What?
Anne Sherry 1:32
That's like a third of the way through season two.
Alison Cebulla 1:35
I was like okay, let's stay on topic but immediately I'm like I have to share Did you see that sounds like a coal joined the exactly right network.
Anne Sherry 1:46
No, wait sounds like a call. That's not a little bit cold. It sounds like the two
Alison Cebulla 1:51
young women the young millennial okay.
Anne Sherry 1:54
Yeah, for them. That's that's good. Yeah, right. They
Alison Cebulla 1:58
got picked up by my favorite murder ladies. I know pick us up I know
Anne Sherry 2:03
on where to work to funny. Interesting lady.
Alison Cebulla 2:08
listeners. We need you like we are we need you to rate and review our podcasts on Apple podcasts and Spotify. We need please subscribe, but like, share. Yes. And thank you for those of you who are doing that, but we need more. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because we see our listener numbers, we see how like the hundreds of you know, people listening each episode going up and up and up. Y'all need to rate us on that. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 2:37
we don't need to organically unfold, like, make it happen. I know. We're all about like, just organically do this work. No, not this therapy can be organic unfolding, but like, getting picked up. So somebody does all this shit that Allison does most of the production
Alison Cebulla 2:56
and now that I have a full time job.
Anne Sherry 2:59
I know. I'm scared. I know. I mean, I'm happy for you. Thank you.
Alison Cebulla 3:06
I'm scared. Me Rio. It was scary.
Anne Sherry 3:10
All right. We'll figure it out. We always did. That's what we learned to do. As kids. We figured it out. Right? You probably did too
Alison Cebulla 3:16
tired of figuring it out. And I'm tired.
Anne Sherry 3:20
I know. Okay, can't someone just step in
Alison Cebulla 3:23
and tell me what to do? And just be like, I got this. I got you
Anne Sherry 3:27
got this? I think you could join a church. I think God does that for people. Okay,
Alison Cebulla 3:34
all right. Don't get all spiritual. Today, we're talking with we're sharing our interview with Laura danger. And
Anne Sherry 3:44
love that one of my guy may change my name. I know one of my friends named
Alison Cebulla 3:48
their kids middle name dangerous, just so that he could say my middle name is danger.
Anne Sherry 3:55
We saw a basketball player football or baseball player. I don't know. We were watching sports and because their names are on the bag. Somebody else was named danger. I don't know. And I was like, so bad acting on.
Alison Cebulla 4:05
Yeah, it's like mysterious. You know? It's interesting. Yeah. It's all the things.
Anne Sherry 4:12
Okay, yeah. But she is seriously cool and doing some amazing work to bring. Partnership and relationships like with all the while a friend millennial friend actually turned me on to her. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 4:32
yeah, cuz it's Lourdes tiktoks. Yeah. And yeah, sure. tiktoks are amazing. Her dad can she can just deadpan these react.
Anne Sherry 4:41
Oh, my God. I'm like, go after this person and just wail on them because they're, like acting like a loser.
Alison Cebulla 4:51
She's always like, she's like this down.
Anne Sherry 4:53
Let's break this down. I'm like, No, don't break it down.
Alison Cebulla 4:57
Like, I know she's
Anne Sherry 4:59
dangerous. on him. Yeah, he's using use your dangerous
Alison Cebulla 5:03
prefrontal cortex. She's not she's not the amygdala, she's like, No, I
Anne Sherry 5:07
go, I go fight hopefully.
Alison Cebulla 5:10
Yeah, analyze this situation. So check her out that darn chat on on the tiktoks and the Instagrams. And, yes. What I really love about this interview for our podcast, is that we're often talking about why don't we care? And what her work is all about is well, you don't, you don't actually have the vocabulary to care. Like, here is our method. Yes. whereby all the mental and emotional labor that is happening in your household, you and your partner, need to talk about all of it. And my framework, the fairplay framework is gonna, it's gonna help you do that. And that is so needed. This is the shit that's gonna get us there, to having these caring households because you could talk to your parents, partner about how to care, you're going to be a better parent to you're going to be able to show up.
Anne Sherry 6:11
You you it takes out or addresses a lot of the resentments that show up. And it's not I think it's not that because not that people don't want to split the emotional and mental labor in a household. They just don't know how exactly or they're not aware of us. And so they're not being they're often like partners being like, What an asshole what a deck, what a why wouldn't he know this already? Why wouldn't she blah, blah, blah? Mostly, it seems like it's the guys that are because, anyways, well, but once the vocabulary and the language is there,
Alison Cebulla 6:46
like oh, yes, yeah, we can't escape the patriarchy. I mean, it's no we cannot the water we swim in and setting everybody up. It really is. And I just think nothing is going to change in the US until we get equal paid paternity leave. That's equal for men as it is for women. Because if you if you don't have that structure of equality, then we're always going to default to the woman being the caregiver.
Anne Sherry 7:17
Yeah. Yep. You're better at it. And you just step into that I did talk about this. Well, I think I speak about it on the interview. Yeah. Just these ways, you just as a woman just fall into it. And then you're like, you're just like these, like low level growing resentment. Yes. And then you're six months, two years, five years into a relationship. And you're like, Why do I hate this person? Why do I not rely on this person? But yeah, and where he's teaching you how to speak about this early and often so important directly? Yeah. Did you
Alison Cebulla 7:52
there's a little meme going around on the on the Instagram speaking of the Instagram, like if every time you say, yes, what do you mean? No, your nervous system will find out how to say no for you.
Anne Sherry 8:05
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And a lot of sense.
Alison Cebulla 8:10
GABA Ma Tei has that book when the body says no. Did you know this and I've looked it up. It's he's totally right. He did not make this up that people with ALS have especially friendly personalities, the disease is associated with a personality type.
Anne Sherry 8:31
Shot, I fucking hate that. It's like what's lurking under the shadows of your character? flaws or shit that you're not address?
Alison Cebulla 8:42
Yeah, it does come out in your body. Not that I want to say that. It's anyone's fault for getting chronic illness. That's not what I'm doing. But now we, we on this podcast, like we want to heal and there's a reason because our bodies and our minds feel better when we heal. And when we can feel our feelings and express them and the boundary work man. That's it's hard.
Anne Sherry 9:15
I sit with clients and I'm like, I don't know. How do you create? Yeah, I mean, I can kind of do it sometimes. I mean, I do it intellectually I can do it. You know, I can obviously support people in their systems but as therapists are also get in the client chair and we're struggling right alongside with you. I guarantee you and we're we're therapists because we were the the helpers in our families generally.
Alison Cebulla 9:42
Yeah. I have been becoming more hyper aware of all the ways that I care take people emotionally and I'm trying to pull back but it's a strong habit. Yeah, and then you got
Anne Sherry 9:55
to feel what's in you like then I think once you pull back from the Ways that you strategically don't feel staff. And if you pull back and you're like, oh, it's me in here, WhatsApp, just me and my parts, feeling all this stuff feeling all the things that we develop strategies not to feel so Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 10:17
cuz you're constantly taking care of other people. It's a great way to ignore what you yourself are feeling. Hey,
Anne Sherry 10:26
oh yeah, I do think I built a career out of this.
Alison Cebulla 10:30
I mean, I did it in relationships just over and over and over. And I actually couldn't even see it. Like I was reading the books on codependency. But it still took a lot it took as long as it took to sink in of like, No, you're still even though you think you're working on this, you're still putting them first. Like you're still thinking about their problems more than your own. You're still focused on what they should do next, instead of what you should do next. Like it just took me like, I literally think I just started working on that like the sheer.
Anne Sherry 11:05
How far apart are we? You're way ahead of them?
Alison Cebulla 11:09
Like, you know, I feel like you years younger, this was my age when you started to do you started to do this stuff? I did. You really did. Yeah. So there's something about your life. Where you're like, I gotta do this differently.
Anne Sherry 11:23
Yeah, you've been beat up enough with emotionally. So enough not paying attention. Laura, Liz. Yes. gonna teach us to your Instagram feed.
Alison Cebulla 11:35
Do it. Yeah. How to do this work of caring step by frickin step. Thank you, Laura.
Anne Sherry 11:41
Thank you, Laura, for your work.
Hello, everyone, we are here with Laura danger. I would thought it might be Dangar or but it's full on danger. And coveting that last name we're talking about, I'll just go ahead and introduce you, Laura. Laura is a certified life coach, a licensed educator, a community advocate and a certified Fair Play facilitator, we'll be getting more into what fair play is who's been facilitating coaching, and community organizing in Chicago for over 12 years. Laura's mission is to influence social change in a way that empowers individuals to value care, connection and community. She's built trust and connection with the online her online community and, and so it's important that our values and goals are aligned as partners. She's amazing. Um, yes, I love it so much. I many, many of my clients have your, your, your, your page because your Instagram goes out to pretty much all my clients. So thank you, I love the work you do. Anything else you want to add to that or expound on before we start our
Laura Danger 13:25
I guess like as we talk, I just always like to say like I, I am in it with everyone. I'm the type of person who, you know, I learned as I go, and I come with the authority of living this reality and in this society and so, like my job is to empower and I just am grateful every single day that I get to be surrounded by amazing people on my online community and with people like you where we can just all like link arms and and push forward. It's so awesome.
Anne Sherry 14:03
You're one of those hope merchants in the world that we mean sometimes Allison gonna care in the world because we talk about this sort of, you know, emotional neglect and how impactful how much impact that has on how you show up in the world. And so anyway, sometimes it can get it feels dark and you're like nope, here's the way I've got a lantern. Let's go.
Laura Danger 14:29
We've all got flashlights, let's just turn them on together.
Anne Sherry 14:33
Yes, I love it. I love it. So
Alison Cebulla 14:36
well it's nice to meet you Laura and thanks for being here. We got to ask her if she was a latchkey kid. So are you a latchkey kid, which means you were physically at home alone growing up. Were you an urchin like emotional neglect? Or are you just a friend or somewhere in between?
Laura Danger 14:54
Maybe surprisingly I haven't done a lot of thinking about that. I am The youngest of three, and I'm, like, five, six years younger than my brothers. And so there I was, there was usually someone in the house. I don't know where they were at. I was playing with my dolls a lot by myself. But we did you know, I, someone was always home to let me in at least until high school and leave me a sandwich in the fridge or or, you know, be there for me, but definitely definitely a friend, too. A lot of a lot of my friends were either walking home to my house, or that kid
Anne Sherry 15:42
or that friend? Yeah.
Laura Danger 15:44
Yeah. But like in adulthood in adulthood? I don't know what that says about me. But the people I am drawn to are our kids who might have been latchkey urchins?
Alison Cebulla 15:55
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like what you're saying if your parents weren't super available, maybe there's some urgent qualities there?
Laura Danger 16:04
Probably yes. Yeah, um,
Anne Sherry 16:09
did you have? So I heard there's a we asked about the well, though the emotional environment. Like, what how was it? I heard you said you were six years younger. Right. Then? The next brother? I
Laura Danger 16:24
think it's four and six. Yes. Okay. So I have a brother four years and then six years older.
Anne Sherry 16:30
Okay. Got it. Yeah. So my relational environment, emotional environment. Did you guys fight a lot? Or did you? Did you? Like, did the family work stuff out? Were your feelings validated? Or was it were you? Like, here have some ice cream? Don't feel bad about that?
Alison Cebulla 16:48
Oh, yeah, we were screen family.
Laura Danger 16:51
Yeah, I would say stuff. Stuff. Like, definitely. That's been a kind of a bummer rollover into my adult life having my own children. But yeah, I would say that every person in my family was a different level of emotionally available. And to no one's surprise, I think my mom and I were very close. And because of that when I was going through emotional turmoil as a teen, that's when I like had to completely distance myself from her. And then as an adult, now we are very much back, back close together. But I think that I grew up in a family and generations back, there was very much no conflict, you should not be do not address conflict. Very much like if you are crying, and again, I'm like leaving my mother out of this. But I think there was a lot of like, you come back when you're done crying. Like, we can talk about this. When you've done cry, you can go to your room, you can think about what you did. And then you can come back or like, take a timeout. And every time I'd be like, What did I do? You have no idea. Nobody explained. I have no idea.
Alison Cebulla 18:20
Think about what you did. Yeah, some reason that phrase has not come up yet on our podcast, but it should have always been a classic, classic phrase.
Laura Danger 18:34
I'll honestly say to like, I think this might be a symptom of growing up Catholic. I'm not I'm not a faithful Catholic now, but I thought that God was in my brain.
Alison Cebulla 18:46
Uh, huh. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. So
Laura Danger 18:49
it was like if I was having a mean thought about someone or an intrusive thought, which I didn't realize was a thing until adulthood. When I was having like a nasty thought about someone I'd be like, oh, oh, God is gonna be mad at me for this. Or like, there must be something wrong with me. And I want to keep the peace. I don't want to upset again, there's this like withdraw in my family and this goes back generations. I know that this is not new. Definitely. Like when this has grown over and we can
Anne Sherry 19:24
connect. Yeah, yeah.
Laura Danger 19:28
So now I'm very hesitant like with bringing things up, we're rocking the boat. And what's funny is as an adult in a marriage, I'm not that way with him at all. I've like swung the completely opposite direction.
Alison Cebulla 19:45
I wonder like your inner child being like, I will feel heard now. You know, kind of needed really needing that.
Laura Danger 19:54
Yeah, probably. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 19:56
Probably. And and I always think to like almost the safer. Obviously not in every situation, but often like the safer you feel in a relationship. Sometimes like, the more your inner child will come out, because it's like, Oh, finally a safe space. And I have all these CDs. Yeah, needs.
Laura Danger 20:15
Yeah, I think for a while, in my marriage, I would like, get bored, or I don't know the attachment styles. I would like worry that things were not going well, or there'd be a lack of chaos or something would happen. Yeah. And then I'd be like, I'm going to test it. Yeah. Or I'd like I, I'd like to come up with a conflict or something to just be like to test the security of the relationship.
Anne Sherry 20:43
Right? Yes. Seeing Yeah, I think that's probably a little on the anxious side of saying. We're just out of here. Like, my husband and I both draw from an avoidance strategy. So we're like, so far apart. We're like, Hey, over there. Hello, are you okay? Yeah. Okay.
Alison Cebulla 21:13
That's my dream relationship. Still. Look,
Anne Sherry 21:15
I know. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 21:17
Can you just leave me alone? So I can live my life we can hang out sometimes.
Anne Sherry 21:24
Totally. Okay, before we go too much further, we do. We are we we are interested in foods that you might have made as a kid I heard there was a sandwich left for you. But I don't know if you were able to get in the kitchen and nobody's home and maybe set something on fire or anything like that. Or eat a ton of sugar ramen.
Laura Danger 21:46
Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm a sugar addict now. But it's so interesting. You asked that question. There wasn't a lot of prepared food as a kid. Like, I mean, maybe I'd say that but I didn't eat it. There'd be like a dinner leftover in the fridge. But I always made myself the twisty version of the Kraft macaroni and cheese
Alison Cebulla 22:08
much better the better the shapes tastes better It's a well known fact hold the elbow
Anne Sherry 22:15
you don't smiles now those T ones. You must be you guys are millennials I don't think we had twisted mac and cheese.
Alison Cebulla 22:25
Food in the 80s and 90s. While
Anne Sherry 22:27
I used to eat macaroni uncooked that is one nine now remember, I don't know if everybody that's sociopath territory. Get out. Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah, podcast is Oh, okay. That's too far.
Laura Danger 22:45
Speaking to the millennial illness of me, there was also a lot of snacks. So like, Welch's. gummies lots of Welch's. Like
Anne Sherry 22:59
those gushers Yes,
Alison Cebulla 23:01
that was a highlight of the 90s
Anne Sherry 23:04
we had none of that stuff. Marketers had not gotten to it yet. They were like yeah, anyway, now all those
Laura Danger 23:13
snacks SlimFast there were always like SlimFast shakes and
Alison Cebulla 23:19
that errors of life the worst sorry sack wells life.
Anne Sherry 23:24
You did you talk about Teddy something Teddy? Know what, Teddy? Somebody was all
Alison Cebulla 23:31
our audio engineer. Yeah, Josh. That was go to
Laura Danger 23:36
snacks, lots of snacks and into this day. I am the snack queen of so many snacks in my house.
Anne Sherry 23:43
You would have been my best friend. I was like I was the like you the only way I made friends I check your snack drawer and I was like, even if I liked you, but if you had a shit snack drawer I was like no I'm not. No, I'm gonna go hang out with that person. I totally hate because the food is awesome at her house. So yeah. I navigated I
Alison Cebulla 24:07
have an example of that going the other way where I had a friend that I thought they had really weird gross snacks. Like to too extreme. And so they they had like a canister of frosting. You know how you could buy the little canisters and they would just eat like a gross about that. Alice? Oh, no, I was not having it. I was like I've ever seen coming back.
Anne Sherry 24:28
that would that would have been that would have been my best friend. How did we ever find each other?
Okay yeah, well, how about I mean, launching into fair play, I guess or like how'd you get so maybe what is it first? I learned fair play. Yeah, but are Alison Do you have another? Well,
Alison Cebulla 24:51
I'm kind of like, you know, for our listeners. I just kind of want them to understand like what it is that Laura is doing so well on Instagram. That made us be really attracted to have you on, which is like you're responding to people, videos of people's relationships with some structural components to them that help people understand the levels of dynamics that are going on in relationships. And we, you know, that's just such a huge part of what we believe in on this podcast is that it's, it's never just one thing. It's never just an interpersonal dynamic. And it's really important to understand those larger contexts. And so maybe you could speak a little bit about a little more about what you what you do, why you do this and how you came into this work. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 25:47
three questions.
Laura Danger 25:49
Well, let me see what I can answer. Fair Play Fair Play is a book and a system developed by the author, Eva Brodsky. And so I don't own it. I didn't write it. But when she launched this book, in October of 2019, I found it and I had a nine month old or No, man, like a six month old diver six month old and three, almost three year old. So no, 333 and under one doesn't not super important. Yeah. But I was in the throes of having to under four. And I, unfortunately, had gotten laid off into my like, five days into my maternity leave with my second. So I was like, it's not against the budget cuts.
Anne Sherry 26:42
So job. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Laura Danger 26:45
So I was like, interviewing for jobs all summer. Thankfully, I got one quickly, I was starting a new school year as a teacher. And then we all know what happened in the spring of 2020. But so it was just like this whirlwind year and I got this book, and it opened my eyes to the mental load. And this system is about communicating about the mental load and how to change from what I was doing, which was writing a list for my incredibly helpful partner to then execute. And I was walking around, like, you know, everybody promised me I could have a career and a family. And I have that and I'm underwater, and my partner's helping me every step of the way. And it's still too much, I must be weak. And I, I was totally underwater, overwhelmed. And I got this book in my hand, and she goes through and she's like, she creates a picture of what the mental load is, and talks about, like the the conception of a task, the planning of a task and the end the execution.
Anne Sherry 27:57
Yeah, you talked, I don't take it all the way through. Yeah. It's like,
Laura Danger 28:01
wow, I didn't want to have to describe what I needed done to my husband, I wanted him to figure it out. And what the system is, is, it's, it's a revolutionary way of, of dividing tasks to empower both partners inside the home and outside of
Alison Cebulla 28:20
the home, I just already can hear our listeners being like, but what is what is that? Like? You know, I want I want to have a listener, say, you know, you guys had an episode about grief. But I really, I still don't understand what grief is. So, you know, could you be like so specific, you know, about what, like, what's the mental labor and the emotional labor and what's going on here.
Laura Danger 28:45
So, what the, the overview of the fairplay system is Eve broke it down, broke down a household into 100 cards. And it's everything from the dishes to magical beings, like do you do Santa? Do you do the Easter Bunny, whatever, cool. And it, it breaks down all of the possible things that you could have to handle mentally, and actually physically pull off in a household and she says, sit down with your partner card by card and define what the task is. So your house dishes might be you also wipe the counters. You you loaded in the dishwasher? There's a specific way yes, you use don you use you don't like you, if I came into your home and you said do the dishes, I could stand there and be like, What do you how do you want me to do it? And we get in these marriages or these partnerships or roommates, and we never have these conversations. So what it really does is it says here's a framework, a space and a time and how you can talk about this. And then you define it like I said like the conception the planning and the execute Sian and then you have a conversation about the minimum standard of care. So it's that piece, how often what products? Do we do Santa? Do we do the Easter Bunny? What does Santa? Like? When do we talk about these things? And to what extent you actually talk about your family values, instead of like, we've all heard it before, right? Well, I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna do it wrong. Or you're always telling me what to do around the house, or just make me a list and I'll get to it. It removes that communication breakdown. And it directly addresses that in a lot of partnerships, especially in a lot of sis hetero partnerships. There's one person carrying most of the mental burden, and then directing and saying you do this, you do this women?
Alison Cebulla 30:52
Everyone, it's women. Yeah. It's it's the woman of this this hate relationship that does all that Yeah.
Anne Sherry 30:58
Yeah, yeah,
Laura Danger 31:03
I usually call them like the prime, the primary caregiver or the domestic engineer. Because it's not always women. But statistically, and data backs this, the majority of the times,
Alison Cebulla 31:15
but it's not always women. But I like. And I talk a lot about how gender dynamics and gender discussions are so ignored in therapy and in relationship books. And I want to throw all relationship books in the trash, maybe set them on fire, because they're not acknowledging that. Yes, it is, in fact, women who, of course, not all the time, but it's like 98% of the time. So I think we need to we really, really, really, really need to acknowledge that. And you know, the patriarchy exists. It exists.
Anne Sherry 31:52
Well, and it in it is undermining it slowly undermines the relationship. So I mean, I can't just how often in therapy, I will get caught, you know, I'm trying to caught in wanting, usually, most of the clients I see are women. But just like complaining, you know, and I'm trying to get them to turn back. And words are, how can you have this conversation or what's hard, and I get lost in it, because my parts can come up and be like, that does suck. That was awful. And I'm like, Oh, that can't be helping. So I'm like, my new phrase is gonna be like, Here, go see Laura. A couples therapy yet, almost feels like this shit first, like, have these conversations, but it's like everything is so like, I don't know what you want me to do. You say create a system? Or I don't even know why can't you tell me? You had me in tears with the one about women and needs? Like, she never says what she wants. I asked her what she wants to like, I don't know. And then you go into a beautiful self. Like saying how I haven't had time to know what I want. And it was a you got me. I was like,
Alison Cebulla 33:06
Why am I crying? Like, well, they to
Anne Sherry 33:11
me, needs were just like, just Yeah, I um, there's so much
Alison Cebulla 33:16
to respond. But I also want to add to that, what Anna's saying is that I can't really bothered when men are like, Well, why aren't they? And like the common discourse? I've even heard women say, Well, you he's not going to read your mind, you need to ask. And I'm like, and I'm like, human beings have basic needs. And if I have to ask for every single basic human need, I don't want this. And it's not about reading my mind if I have something weird and quirky and specific. I'm not gonna expect of course, I want to communicate well, but most women communicate really well. But, but like basic, and the patriarchy. I don't know. Laura, could you speak to this?
Laura Danger 33:53
Yes. Yes, yes. It's so hard because and I feel for therapists, I am not a therapist. And in my paid job, when I work with coaching and consultations, I am helping you implement a system, right? And if I'm, if I'm your coach, I am doing that. I'm saying, okay, what can we do? What steps can you take to get this way? But it's it there's duality to it, right? It's society has told me I should not have needs. You can live a life when your children fly the next the nest, you should serve others because that's how you become valuable. And then what happened to me? Yes, yeah. What happened to me was, I feel like I got into such a hole as it as a teacher in a in a helping profession and as a mother of two and with a husband, who is very supportive of me, but how to that was building a career for a lot of those years, right? That I willingly did all of this and I was like, Wow, I feel proud. Have myself I feel like I have a purpose. And then it was just like, hitting me in the face way too much. And I thought, oh, no, I wrapped my value up so much in what I could give to everybody. If I can't handle it anymore, everyone's gonna go away. Right? And I think that that is not a unique experience because of how we're socialized.
Anne Sherry 35:27
Yep. Right.
Laura Danger 35:28
So how do you convince what
Anne Sherry 35:30
you do? Not who you are like our worth is tied up in industriousness. Men? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 35:36
I think that men we socialize them. I'm not necessarily I have a lot of compassion because they I really do feel that they're socialized, but they're socialized to be served. And,
Laura Danger 35:47
and to be productive to but in a different way.
Anne Sherry 35:51
You do a beautiful real on that. We share that one Allison, where you the woman came home and nothing had been done. Yeah, they're unemployed husband is watching videos, drinking eight beers, and doing nothing all day and the kids at school and I was like, good, Laura, just get up and you totally go the other way. Let's look at the structure. I was like, Thank you, Laura, thank you so much for what we're doing.
Laura Danger 36:22
That is that's a tough one. And I periodically I'll throw everyone for a loop, obviously. Obviously, you come home after you have worked a long shift. And then yeah, this, this woman comes home and the house is a total mess. And the husband has drank eight beers in that time. And I would be pissed. I would be so mad, walking home. And I'm not saying he should even stay with that guy. Like who it could be. That's the thing that blows it up. But yeah, in that in that? Yeah, in that video, I'm saying like, you know, men have tied themselves historically to hard work. And people like Andrew Tate are telling you you should be tying your worth to Bugatti is and money. And a lot of times when men don't have that, they can't even find like, Wow, all of the men in my adult life have contributed their own way value they have brought to these relationships has been financial. So how do I even begin to find identity or value in myself if I can't be that, and men have higher rates of depression and leads to higher rates of suicide? Yep, yep. So yeah. These when they're like, well, who's gonna pay your bills? Women are just gold diggers. It's like, you know, I know. We it's harm. That toxic stuff is harming men. Yeah. Yeah. That it's harming women.
Anne Sherry 37:46
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely.
Laura Danger 37:51
So it's like both, you know, I feel the rage. And if this was my friend, I would sit with her in that rage. And, yeah, as an objective voice, I can also see how it's a structural it's a symptom of a structural issue.
Alison Cebulla 38:03
Well, yeah, that video that you that you responded to, and will link to in the show notes made me think a couple of different things, none of which were actually particularly mad at the dude per se, because I'm like, Well, I don't know you've been in this relationship a while, like did I don't know if you just now realized who you were married to. So there was that aspect where I was like, I think we're not seeing the whole picture. And yet you want us to have this like big emotional reaction with you. It doesn't really actually feel fair. It feels kind of and so that was my second part. It's like it felt like really like an overshare in like a really toxic way. I don't like that kind of like, let me out someone in my life, like really angrily and specifically. And it's like, I don't know, maybe you just want to keep your personal life? I don't know. It made me feel icky. Yeah, yeah.
Anne Sherry 38:51
I mean, but I have, I mean, I come from a generation a little bit of like, the Gen X where we don't want to share anything. So this whole like, and I know that that kills us to like we're just in our family. And it's that is like one of the basic things when you're going to therapy, it's like but we weren't you know, it was insane in this household and then we walk outside. We're fine. We're fine. We're fine. We're fine. You know, some of this I'm like, now that I've figured out how to use Instagram I'm like Allison's like somebody shared something. I'm like, where is that? She's like put your hand thumb on the picture. I'm so sorry. I'm getting old and old. Like I'm 1517 years head Allison so you do becoming that annoying whatever but it's like it this is kind of be messy like that, too, like you know and then taking these videos where we could somebody I'm sure plenty of people take it down a rabbit hole of like, whatever. You should leave him buck. Yeah, and blah, blah, blah. And that's it just just to what we're doing Allison, which is let's expand the conversation that we got big old structural stuff here. And we're trying to unburden lots like the rugged individualism, capitalism, gender role models, like we've been shown, and even my husband and I, we had a kid later, I was like, we're so enlightened. But he's a adolescent therapist, and there was a thing where he, whatever details not so much, I could have made a real about it, I'm sure. But I went into, he changed the plans. And I went into our mad scramble to find something for our kid to do that day. And I got to the end of the day, and he went on a paddleboard race or something. And I was like, and he realized that somehow I communicated my rage during the day. I'm like, Why did I scramble? Like, because he doesn't have any. He does now. But he didn't have any played any, any numbers. And it's all moms. For the kid. Yeah, reach out to have their numbers, you know, and I was like, he got home, steam coming out of my ears, and just, you know, and of course, I tie it to the patriarchy. And then he's just like, being quiet, because and I'm in menopause, too. So he's getting that whole thing. Yeah. Anyways, it was amazing to be like, even when you think you're sort of an enlightened, you have an enlightened household. This thing, these habits are just there and they've crept in. And yes, it's hard to uncover them. And so those cards sound amazing. You know, let me guide you through all the things you may be thinking about.
Alison Cebulla 41:47
And whenever questions was, you know, why is it so hard? And any other thoughts you
Anne Sherry 41:51
have? Yeah.
Laura Danger 41:53
Why is it so hard? Yeah, the capitalism majorly? That's what that's why it's hard. No, yeah. To your point about the messiness. I find most of my videos on Tiktok. And I'm careful not to actually like I try to block out their usernames. Because, like you said, like people will come to them and be like, divorce divorce. And that's not what I want. I don't think it's helpful. Bye. Yeah. And part of Tik Tok, and why it's popular is because there's a little bit of anonymity. because not a lot of people are over there yet. And so people feel like they can share. And I also think that there's this normalization, like you said, and of this dynamic, and so many people things think it's normal, and okay, and so, what to us feels maybe a little messy, and like a call out. In any other situation. Like she was an RN, it looked like she was a nurse or a doctor, possibly, I don't want to assume. But she gets on there, and she's mad. And that might be a conversation she has at work with friends who deal with similar things at home. And so it's like, well, yeah, we're all married to the same man. Haha. This is like, what marriage is in America, what we're not going to expect anything different. Men are bumbling fools. And what I'm trying to do is shine a light on that, like, no men or men are capable men are kind and tender and thoughtful. And they can be all of these things. We stop assuming that they're not. Yeah. So I think it's you're working against a system that wants us all to prioritize productivity. And a system that does cater to men because men are making money and men are productive, and they're already at the top. And it's, it's all of it compounded. And also we don't have parental leave, or health care if you leave your husband. You don't have a place to stay. So it just keeps going.
Anne Sherry 44:14
She hears the darkness. Yeah, that comes. Yeah, yeah, it's very dark. It is there was a an I may have found this through. I don't know this popped up but a German woman who moved to Germany and she's doing this comparison of what it's like to live in Germany, and she's married to a German person, I think and just how much parental leave they get. They have child she looks. She looks healthy. She's. Yeah, she's like I can have I mean, she's do it. It's an amazing Instagram. Like, she's comparing like, they ask you what's your hobby? They assume that you have a hobby, because of course you would have enough fucking time to macro may or whatever, you know, like, and we don't we're just like in anyways, it was like, oh yeah, we live in a dystopia. Like, this is insane. What? With and I don't know, when it's gonna, you know, my poor kid is like, Oh, you're gonna talk about moving again, aren't you? Because I'm like, I can't believe I start going off where we do now? Yeah, he was like, can you stop moving? I'm like,
Alison Cebulla 45:26
Laura, like when you're working with your clients? What are the roadblocks that you see most often what's coming up for couples as they try and navigate this?
Laura Danger 45:38
Alright, a lot of a lot of women come to me and they say how they'll just call, you know, a free call with me to figure out what to do like how, how do I invite my partner to the table? How do I talk to them about this without them feeling attacked? And sometimes this comes up where people are like, you know, there's the male ego is a real thing. And my opinion on that is that male fragility, and you can deal with that on your own. That that's like my harsh version of that. But so yeah, people come to me, and they're concerned that there will be cultural pushback from the people in their, the social circles that they run in, or that it will hurt their partner's feelings, who might really need a kick in the ass. Or, much like my partner, who was like, but I have shown up for you every step of the way, and had shown up for me every step of the way. But we were still dealing with the mental load that was not divided. Right? So how do you not hurt their feelings? So it's tough. Can
Anne Sherry 46:53
you say? Yeah, more about mental load, emotional load? Are they? Do you see those as the same? Or crossover? Or? Because I know I hold a lot, Tom doesn't hold as much like I am constantly the grocery list where he didn't, yeah, wear jacket, you know, or whatever. And I'm like, Could I get I'm gonna run home, I have enough time to run home and get him a jacket or what Tom's like, who cares? He didn't wear a jacket, you know? I mean, he's done. And I have like spent probably, I don't know, 30 minutes figuring out if it's possible. And should I would that enable him? Would he not? Is that gonna hurt his that kind of like, is that the men's? Yeah, I don't know if that are emotional load? Or, but I mean, in my opinion, fine. Yeah.
Laura Danger 47:40
Yeah. In my opinion, those those ones are more married, like, I pictured the emotional Lotus making the call to me, and being like, how do I do this? Yeah, and navigating when to ask for help, how to ask for help. What you what emotional toll you can take how you can you know, a lot of therapists will come to women and say, Well, you know, if you presented it nicer, maybe he would be more receptive to it. And so it's I know, who really pisses me off. There's that aspect, but there's also like, what values do I want to instill in my kids? How is this going to harm them long run? Like, we're all harming our kids every single freaking day? But like, where? Oh, where do I harm them this day? Yeah, I think it's, it's that but it's also
Alison Cebulla 48:39
with the emotional load. I certainly don't know, to too many men who use their, you know, an emotional vocabulary regularly, you know, asking, you know, how does that make you feel? How, you know, or, or sharing, you know, how was your day at work? Well, you know, gosh, I felt disappointed when, you know, done it, I didn't get the praise on my report that I needed. I mean, I've just, there's so I don't I never hear that from men. And so I think that there's this expectation, a lot of times that when a man comes, you know, in a header heteronormative relationship, a man comes home, and he wants the woman to make him feel better, but he can't exactly name that he just knows that something happened at work, and it didn't feel that good. And now here's this person who's supposed to kind of care about me, and I need them to validate me. And I just think that that happens every day. And and that's an emotional load. And we're not talking about it. And I also feel that I've it's been a really uphill battle trying to convince men that this is actually happening. Oh, yeah, because you can't see it, you know? And if there's no emotional vocabulary there, it's even hard to try and explain what it is because they're like, that's not true for me. It's like what it is it's your emotions still exist, whether you have the vocabulary or not.
Laura Danger 50:09
Right? Right, they'll put it on their female partners, or they will think it's too much of a burden to bring up at all
Alison Cebulla 50:17
right? So if someone's listening, and they really want to make this kind of change, what should they do?
Laura Danger 50:25
One piece of advice that I usually give to couples is to look at where this dynamic is costing you. Are you getting in fights, every cycles of arguments? Are you feeling like you are taking on so much that you have no sense of self anymore? Are you sick? Like is making you sick? Are you turning down job or job opportunities, right? Decide where it's costing you, and then use that as your motivator as to where you would like it to pay off. And then there are a bunch of different things you can do, you can start setting up a weekly meeting where you just talk about domestic labor, you can get the book get fairplay book, get checkout, there's, I have a YouTube video of like 11 minutes of how to do it. You can start taking take it seriously. It's not frivolous, and it's not silly to be overwhelmed and underwater with these things. And to walk better. It's okay. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 51:30
What about like mental illness? And how that factors in to the equation? I'm sure there's, you mentioned that men have higher rates of depression, and I'm sure that's, that's there and anxiety and just different factors that make it really hard. How does that come up? Or how have you seen that factor in
Anne Sherry 51:46
an ADHD? You did some pieces on that being able to get creative? Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Danger 51:51
Um, again, that's, it's really about taking it seriously. And identifying and having a conversation with your partner about what is, you know, a piece of executive functioning is task prioritizing, and it's hard for people with ADHD or neuro divergence and hard for me. So what we do is we have a conversation and we say, if you are having, if you are in a depressive episode, for the next couple of weeks, you communicate with me, please. And I will, we will see these few things our priority versus these few things. And if you need help, you're still you can ask me for help. But it's, it's about communicating in good faith. Where sometimes, saying, while I have ADHD is just too hard for me, can sometimes be used as an excuse, right? And it is a valid thing to need an accommodation or a modification of a task for but it's not. Now well, I have a diagnosis. So I just can't, right, it's right, how can we find an equitable division of labor that men equal sense,
Alison Cebulla 53:07
equitable? And so because our podcast is about neglect in its various forms, and the fact that humans need nurturing, and so what I'm hearing you say is that a lot of couples, almost unintentionally, are really neglecting their own needs, their household needs and the needs of their partners. And you're saying, let's put a system in place that acknowledges that these needs exist, even though we can't see them. And from childhood, we did not learn about these. Let's look at them and put some systems in place.
Laura Danger 53:46
Yes, guess it is. It is not going to solve any communication issues like patterns that you might want to see a counselor for. But it is the framework and the language to put these things into practice. It's It's a framework, it's a tool in your toolbox.
Alison Cebulla 54:06
So what kind of world are you seeking to create with your work? What's your vision,
Laura Danger 54:13
my vision? And I know you have had a talk about how we show up from meow bird song. My vision is a world where we see everybody's needs and every individual as innately valuable. But I think advocating for yourself as a whole person in a partnership, I would love everyone to feel empowered to do that. But I think that the missing pieces this community, because in our society, I think that the white picket fence, like American Dream family is harming us. If we're expecting to get all of our needs met within a partnership. It's really scary. To then set a boundary because you've gotten no one else filling your cup. And so I think it's like a both, you need to find a way to advocate for yourself. But you can also build these bonds and platonic love community love outside all at the same time. So I would love instead of pouring into these, these little silos, like we were saying, like, instead of silos, I would love to see a world where we feel much more connected. And I think that we're all stronger in that way.
Alison Cebulla 55:33
And I wonder if like kind of the secularization of our society, like maybe people used to kind of go to church, and that that was like one way where people would often interact with others and have a community and a lot of people have religious trauma and are now you know, kind of taking a step back. But then I don't think anything has stepped in really to take its place. What do you think?
Laura Danger 55:57
Yeah, yeah, and especially in the pandemic years. There's, I mean, there, community gardens and sports teams, and even, you know, third spaces, libraries, there are places we can go. And a lot of that has been removed in the last couple of years. Right.
Alison Cebulla 56:16
It's been brutal.
Laura Danger 56:19
Yeah. Yeah. So the internet, I mean, I have a strong community and people do. There's camaraderie in my comment section. And that is really cool to see.
Alison Cebulla 56:32
Huh? That's good. Well, um, and did you have any anything else? Before we do the feelings? We'll
Anne Sherry 56:41
I don't I just, I love what you said about that, sort of that isolation that we do in the white picket fence. And that's where and all that dysfunction that occurs there, too. And you're not supposed to talk to anybody about that. And I, I really appreciate it's getting better. I do think Instagram therapy is okay. Yeah, getting little bits or whatever, rather than nothing. And it is a community of people. I mean, it's real. It's like, more and more people are coming online, more voices and reading this book, sand talk, that I love how Aboriginal wisdom will make say could save the world or it was like, listen to all the voices, and we've, you know, with this diffuse SNESs with Instagram and Tiktok. And, you know, I don't know, my generation might be like, you're wasting your life watching that thing. I don't know. He's starting to talk so much to learn. Yes, there is and all voices, we can hear more voices. And that's so important, rather than it being this like, Nope, this is the right way you do it. And that is that's unfolding that's coming apart. And that's a good thing. So, yeah. Yeah. And you're part of that. Thank you. Thank you to be part of that, too. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 57:55
Such a healing wise voice out there. Amongst the chaos, because it really does for referrals
Anne Sherry 58:03
from Asheville. They're coming from North Carolina. Yep.
Alison Cebulla 58:07
All right. Cool. It has felt like very soothing to my nervous system. And you know, in the example that we were reviewing where this woman was, was feeling really angry about her husband not doing the dishes and drinking eight beers. My reaction to that and and I do like Tik Tok, but I get really overwhelmed with how angry people are because that angrier content is stickier, and people tend to watch it more and then they'll just show you one angry video after the next and pretty soon you're all unsettled. And you don't know why. You know, you're like, oh my god, I hate everybody. So it's very soothing for my nervous system to see that video and then to have you come in and say, let's break this down for a minute. You know, it's just like, totally feels like the right the right energy. And so you know, thank you for the for the work you're
Laura Danger 58:55
going. I like to say it's like, I try to keep it from righteous rage. Like, I'm never trying to rage at people, but sometimes a very. I want it to always feel empowering when I am like shouting into my phone. Yeah, cuz I can get a little mad. We should all be mad, but in the right direction, right? Yes.
Anne Sherry 59:19
Agreed. So wait to see what the feelings we'll bring feelings
Alison Cebulla 59:41
so he can I think it's your turn to go first. So Ann's gonna go, I'm gonna go Laura. You're gonna go. It's a feeling it's I've got a wheel in front of me feelings. wheel.com I'm gonna kind of go around you'll say stop. And that's the feeling what it feels like in the body. And a time you felt it recently, so and ready, go. Stop. nauseated.
Anne Sherry 1:00:10
Oh, nauseated. Can I get approximate feeling?
Alison Cebulla 1:00:15
Yeah, let me look. There's proximate feelings
Anne Sherry 1:00:17
that
Alison Cebulla 1:00:19
awful and disgusted. Awful and
Anne Sherry 1:00:22
disgusted, nauseated. Well, the feeling in my body just saying that word nauseated, it's definitely stomach oriented. I'm almost noticing like I just sort of curl and a little bit on myself. Just body posture wise and I kind of went up I felt this recently. God, what? There's so many places to do it like when I listen to Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes on podcasts when I'm wide awake at 3am in the morning, just I think, I think. Yeah, it's been. I benched a little bit too much. I'm trying to stay away from the midterms. But it's important what's happening out there and oh, I know. Fucking Ron DeSantis. And that shit, he just did. Did you see? Know that he he has arrested a person press conference about arresting 20 people for voter fraud. They were you know, the the people of Florida said it's okay for felons to vote because they're, we want them to ride on they've served their time they want it we want them to be full human beings again, right. And he's done another political stunt where he issued warrants for 20 people for voter fraud based on some bullshit, whatever. And so it's, it's, we're back into voter intimidation. This is the slavery times this is emancipation. This is all the things and he's just doing it. And there were hundreds of people cheering, you know, like, yeah, he's
Alison Cebulla 1:02:10
keeping me nauseated too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:02:14
Now I'm ready. Okay, now my fists are balled up and I want to punch them. So that's where I am. See, if you stay with the body position first, then then they come. Yeah, so the where it is in the body is helpful, because it makes it clear.
Alison Cebulla 1:02:33
Okay, thanks. I'm
Anne Sherry 1:02:34
gonna shake that Oh, fuck yourself. We're on Okay, okay, and
Alison Cebulla 1:02:41
tell me when to stop go stop isolated
hmm that's an interesting one. Because that feels like very existential like, you know, like, even if we're in community we still have to like be in our own flesh prison
Anne Sherry 1:03:13
we'll be calling you soon to fight now listen is like I'm in a flesh person.
Alison Cebulla 1:03:23
And are truly known, you know, what are we not? Yeah. Um, so I think yeah, the other words are like lonely and sad. And so I think that oftentimes my isolated loneliness is like somewhat self imposed. It's like a shame spiral where I start comparing myself to other people and maybe like, what other people have or what they've, what they're doing or what their lives are like. And I start to feel like maybe I'm like the only person going through what I'm going through and it really starts like a whole spiral that the second I tech someone what's going on for me it disappears. So it's really like a the isolated thing feels less embodied to me and more of a more of a disembodied thought process, then I would say that a feeling it's like, for me anyway. It's almost like really like being detached from my bodily from my flesh prison, and, and instead ruminating and when I do come back to the body, I think that feeling goes away. So that's my kind of, that's my interpretation of isolated
Anne Sherry 1:04:59
so Okay, nice. All right, Laura, you got it. So do I say
Alison Cebulla 1:05:06
stop? Yes. Go. Set. Ah, a W E. Ah
Laura Danger 1:05:19
M what's next to it?
Anne Sherry 1:05:23
I love the nearby me what's the community? What's on the community of surprise?
Alison Cebulla 1:05:29
Surprised? Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:05:32
Um
Laura Danger 1:05:35
I feel like maybe I've had a lot of other just like really nice things happening lately. And I've been surprised by how much my message has resonated and how many opportunities it has brought me. So I feel like that has been what I think of, but to me are is like I mean, it's, it's like maybe my chest. Like, that's maybe where I feel it. Like, take my breath away. Sort of that's that's what I think of. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking I'm thinking specifically, maybe this wasn't super near recent, but I went to the Grand Canyon. And it was like a really pivotal and very important trip for me because I went alone. And it was like, a special time in my life and like listening to music and driving up to the Grand Canyon and not expecting to see it and then it was like, right there. And, like, it was like it hit me in the chest. That's where it felt was amazing. It was awe inspiring.
Anne Sherry 1:06:47
Very nice.
Alison Cebulla 1:06:50
That's a good thank you
Anne Sherry 1:06:52
so much, Laura. Just us is awesome. Thank
Laura Danger 1:06:55
you for
Anne Sherry 1:06:57
hitting something that is really really important. Really important. Like people need somebody to hold their hands and walk through this and the encouragement like if our critics run the show all the time we'd it's turning those critics into encouragers like you can do this it's hard and yeah
Alison Cebulla 1:07:15
and naming naming something that's really hard to name and saying we will put structure to this feels so valuable. Yeah, so you are doing the Lord's work thank you
Anne Sherry 1:07:33
yeah, that that put that word and I would love this like you as a kid like thinking God was in your head that's yes, you already know I am. Oh my God. Now you're very cool.
Alison Cebulla 1:07:53
All right
thanks for listening to latchkey urchins and friends. If you like what you heard, follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts, but especially Spotify and Apple. And if you didn't like it, just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback, please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Cebulla and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
