S2.E10. When Gifted Kids Wake Up to Their Trauma
We talk about the fact that many children considered "gifted" were either neurodivergent and/or coping with trauma or C-PTSD. We talk about how American culture neglects kids and families and that we now live in the dystopian hellscape that 80s action movies predicted.
Kyle Kimball is a law student at Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, Netherlands focusing on climate refugee law. His work criticizing neoclassical economics as it relates to climate change was featured when he spoke at MEERTALK in 2021.
Show Notes:
Interview:
Childhood trauma linked to civic environmental engagement, green behavior
Our interview with Yin about young activists - S1.E12. Asian-American Immigrants & Economic Violence
Interview:
The Running Man (film)
Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:06
Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie we are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:18
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal
Anne Sherry 0:27
latchkey ergens are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:43
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:49
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about
Alison Cebulla 0:53
sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:03
Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met. And we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:11
So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend, you are
Alison Cebulla 1:15
wanted here
Hi, how are you? Good. How are you? I'm good. I'm fine. Well, I'm fine. I just want to say like words of gratitude to all of our listeners.
I don't know if we do that enough.
Anne Sherry 1:44
I know. I know. Me or My little latchkey lens, people like oh my god, I'd love your podcasts or I'll get a thing you know, people, followers, and I'm like, really? I know you listen. Care Package and the mail and the email, a little care package. A little lovely. Oh, speaking of air languaging my mom.
Alison Cebulla 2:10
Santos we have to tell all our listeners, especially the ones that follow us on Instagram or Facebook, although please follow us on on Facebook and Instagram. Um, yes. But um, my mom's giving up social media and just give it up. Oh, yeah, that's true. My mom sent to Anna and I in the mail. Latch key, urgent care package. She sent us each a little tiny light up toaster. With that's smiling. And it says toast on it. Ever and I didn't know it was coming. And the little this is the funny thing we texted about right where I go paranoid.
Anne Sherry 2:48
And like this is a Russian listening device. I'm so used to getting just like a sweet little surprise. I was like Russian listening device or it's a bomb because Ted Kaczynski was instrumental. Like, why did you think that it was like a birthday present? Like it's literally your birthday? That's where I would have gotten is February. Yeah, it is. Right. So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm paranoid. Wait, because your mom did not send you care packages when you went off to college? No, I had to coach her into that. And that sounds really like Atlanta, and I get a care package. But it was kind of an odd thing. All my roommates have a care package. Yeah, it does. I tortured her with a list of things that are in care packages. I didn't even know that was that thing. Just like the phone call piece. Right? Like were kids. In my freshman year of college people calling their parents every day. I was like, why? Please, if you're listening, stop what you're doing.
Alison Cebulla 3:53
follow, like, subscribe, leave us a review, Spotify, Apple podcasts, like it really makes a difference. We really, really, really need you to do it. Like we can see that we literally have 1000s of listeners and we have 30
star ratings on Spotify. Yeah, like we can do better, you guys.
Anne Sherry 4:15
Yes. So that people know. It's important. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you in advance. And thank you for listening and thank you for sharing we, it means a lot to us. And thanks for sending us toasters in the mail if you're my mom.
Alison Cebulla 4:34
Today, we're talking with Kyle Kimball, who is a longtime friend, and we're interviewing him about the intersection or honestly it's like really kind of a friend a friendly chat to you know, and about the intersection of kind of like growing up as being labeled gifted. It's almost like a continuation of that episode we did about participation trophies, and yeah, yeah, save your comp
flex, you know, it's like part two of that conversation really, I and and all these expectations that we kind of got when we were, you know, if you're born in the 80s, of what you're supposed to do and be and then just having that none of that come true like not that we didn't have the tools. But then also like Ray Oh, like where we neurodivergent? Like, do we have trauma? So it's kind of that intersection of trauma and neuro divergence and like being told you're supposed to do great things, you know. And I think for those of us who had a little bit of trauma, a little bit of neurodivergent traits, it's taken us a minute to figure it out. But I found this
article. Oh, it's from your alma mater, Anne, actually.
Anne Sherry 5:44
From University of Colorado?
Alison Cebulla 5:45
Yes.
That came out just a couple of days ago that said, there's a doctor doing research, Dr. Raj, are something
that in this article says, Previous research has shown that people who experienced natural disasters as children are more likely to get involved in environmental causes. But these new findings show that childhood trauma of any kind, is associated with increased interest in both private and public environmental engagement as an adult, that's mind blowing to me. So it says this indicates that there may be something about a formative negative experience that drives individuals to engage on a public or policy level with environmental issues is instead of only practicing green behavior. That's just music to my ears. I love to hear that. Yes.
Anne Sherry 6:42
And you know, where I go a little bit with that is
Another podcast yen, and was saying what she was noticing among these younger, that they also take care of themselves, because you can see if that's if that's a response to your trauma, like, I'll just I'll fix the environment, or I'll do this. You know, like, I get industrious around that. That's the thing to watch, because you still gotta work on the trauma. But what I was noticing, Yen was saying no, these these kids are actually care about each other to Oh, yeah, kids these days. Yes, they are. Because we're doing the social emotional learning. And that's what wasn't available in the 80s either, right? Yeah, I heard another thing too. I don't know, a piece on NPR, just a real quick one on.
Kids excelling and the link to depression and anxiety and kids and that they're happier if they have a balanced life with friendships and activity, play. And that whole thing were August, I was asking him, I think I've shared this, but August was like, you know, I'm like, What do you want to because they do have a gifted program at his school that he's not in. And the trigger is a part of me. We talked about that in the episode today. Talk about that in the episode, but he's like, I want to be above average. And I'm like, that's exactly what I've been building you for. And it triggers the shit out a part of me like, you're never gonna leave my house. You're not You're gonna be lazy. You're not going to make it you're gonna. It's just weird. It's just a part. It's just a part. But I was surprised by the like, why just above average? Like that's the program I
Alison Cebulla 8:21
think we should raise history just be average, because that's an average means. Like, it
Anne Sherry 8:26
was like it's above average, I could set out on average.
Alison Cebulla 8:31
No, it doesn't. Statistically, when we just spoke and just like, just why do we have to like, let it be? Well, okay, but but being like having to be like above other people. Yes. Feels inherently exclusionary and disconnecting. We're not putting that on August or anything, but it's like part of our society that like builds that in. Oh, you need to be better than everybody even like you said he's doing sports. Well, yeah, sports, one team wins, one loses, you know? Yes. That's like setting your mind set up for life.
Anne Sherry 9:04
I know. And when you say that I'm like, we really love watching the Super Bowl and shit like the playoffs. We're down with that.
Alison Cebulla 9:11
I know. games are fun, though. I'm not putting they are fun. I'm just saying like, what we value. Like there's yeah, there's other types of games that can be set up that are like, non competitive that we just don't really do with kids. Like everything is a competition. Yeah, and then but I true. It's
Anne Sherry 9:29
so true. Well,
Alison Cebulla 9:30
I just think like Kyle and I, and we explore this in the interview, were raised, we often won things. And then we insert them that fueled you know, oh, you're really really good at this. So now you know that you'll get love and attention. So now you're gonna do it more and now you're gonna get the attention again, and you're gonna do it more and pretty soon our whole value was based on how smart I am. You know, quote, unquote, I don't even know what that means we were or something but now We don't have maybe like the other good stuff like the social skills. I mean, honestly, when I was 20, and I went to rehab, they were like, oh, yeah, like, if you're having a hard day one tool, instead of, you know, hitting the meth pipe, is that you could call a friend. And I was like, Oh, that is genius. That never occurred to me. Do you? I mean, like, I didn't, yeah, like a regular social life that made any sense. Because of how I was raised and like, constantly, and I'm not. It's not like I didn't have friends or anything. But it was like my identity was what it was, like, constantly reinforced for what I could, like, produce almost or something. And the exclusionary thing of being better than, Oh, you won this thing. Oh, you got a little bit high. Now when this thing, and winning is like you are better than it's just, and then it's just like, not true. And my happiest I've been in my life is when I really, really, really get grounded in our shared humanity, that none of us are better than anyone else. Those are the times that I feel the happiest when I'm on my high horse. I'm never more miserable.
Anne Sherry 11:07
Right, right. So we'll do a check. Allison, are you on your high horse right now?
Alison Cebulla 11:12
That happens a lot. Yeah. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 11:14
I know. I know. But I mean, it's it is some of that. What I see in therapy is it's your love for what you do, not who you are. And that gets reinforced by the society. Yes, yes. Yes. Parents are busy. You know, just the structures that we set up were and he covers this. I love it. Just like what is the education system? What was it built for? Yeah, little workers, little workers. Yeah. I don't know exactly what we're what we're unfolding into, but something better I hope.
Alison Cebulla 11:42
Well, so we love this conversation with Kyle and Lisa
Anne Sherry 11:46
coolest. He moved to Europe. He like
Alison Cebulla 11:50
CompTIA with us in Europe. Yeah, we're doing a thing. Yes. This summer. We're going to Finland. I know. Okay. Come hang out and actually want to come hang out. I
Anne Sherry 12:04
do want to come hang out in Finland. Yeah. Do they have air conditioning?
Alison Cebulla 12:08
It's Finland. It's like way up there. You know, they like barely have a summer. Yeah. But enjoy it. Enjoy it. We love talking with Kyle. And we hope you enjoy it. We know you will enjoy. It's really fun.
Anne Sherry 12:23
And you will then before you listen. Get your reward you could listening is the reward. Go give us five stars. Oh, yeah,
Alison Cebulla 12:33
guys, for what we do.
Anne Sherry 12:36
We'll let you listen to the episode as soon as you get.
Alison Cebulla 13:05
All right, we are here with my good good friend Kyle Kimball. And we're so excited to talk with Kyle today. And we were just
Anne Sherry 13:17
having a blast getting to know each other. Like me, and Kyle's gonna act up I can tell ya,
Alison Cebulla 13:24
I know it's gonna happen. So, Kyle is one of my longest time friends we met at gate camp when we were in elementary school. I'll really never forget it. Yeah, please. Gate. Yeah, great question. Okay, stands for gifted and talented education. It's a relic from the 90s that needs to just never come back. Bad
Anne Sherry 13:54
made the two of you the way you are. And that's a good,
Alison Cebulla 13:57
bad. Oh, that's bad. Right. Right. That's bad. And then we went so we were we did like high school together. And that we both got into Cal Berkeley and went there together. And both both struggled in some similar ways. And both kind of ended up being I think, I would say Late Bloomers or something, you know, kind of took us a little while to like find our true path. You know, and I think like, I'm really proud of both of us. Yeah, and Kyle is, um, he just finished a law degree at the is it called Estonian something of technology.
Kyle Kimball 14:42
Yeah, the Tallinn authentic allegory. Talan. You technically okay.
Alison Cebulla 14:46
Yeah. In Estonia, and now he's at the University of Amsterdam. Right now. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And he is finishing up his law studies. To practice, climate refugee law, and he has been doing some really cool work in the climate, refugee space. And most notably, just really, really, really calling out racism in Europe, which I love that you're doing that.
Kyle Kimball 15:18
There's a lot to call
Anne Sherry 15:23
over there when we've got so much here, you know, like, I know, yeah, yeah, it's
Alison Cebulla 15:28
good to know our origins as European descendants, though. Yes. Kyle was recently a featured speaker on mirror talks. And I'm gonna post that link in the show notes on our website, because it's a really compelling and amazing and inspiring talk. And Kyle, you're just like doing such good work. And thanks for being on the pod.
Kyle Kimball 15:48
Well, thanks for having me. I mean, I don't know if the work is good or not, but it is it is there.
Alison Cebulla 15:52
I just want everyone to know that the work is so good that like scholars, Global Scholars are reaching out to Kyle to tell him how good it is. So it's very good work.
Anne Sherry 16:03
They're not they're not trial and
Alison Cebulla 16:07
answer. Yeah. And so, Kyle, I feel like you. Like you're kind of used to being like, and I'm just gonna say this on your behalf, because I know you wouldn't say it, but like, the best at what you do, in a certain way, just because, like, your track record in in speech and debate in high school and college, can you share a little bit about you were like, nationally good, right.
Kyle Kimball 16:38
Yeah. I mean, so in high school, I mean, obviously, we went to like a little Well, I wouldn't say a little bit of Podunk High School and like Central California, and, yeah, I mean, it was a large school in terms of population, but a small school in terms of, you know, resources to do things that like any sort of, I mean, spirited debate is largely like a rich kids activity. So that being said, I was Yeah, I was very successful in that, like, nationally, I think we were ranked like, I know, we were top 30 or something by the end of the year, my senior year.
Anne Sherry 17:09
Country national, yes. Wow. That is something
Alison Cebulla 17:12
and you would you would win things.
Kyle Kimball 17:15
Yeah. I mean, that was if we didn't win things, then something was wrong. But it didn't happen. So we didn't have to worry about it. And then yeah, when we went to college, freshman year, while the wheels were still on the train, or the wagon, we got third in the country. So in the country college food, our freshman our freshman
Anne Sherry 17:38
year, and this is their divisions or something, or it's all colleges like Yale, Harvard. Hi, everybody, all that kick in.
Alison Cebulla 17:47
What I'm trying to say is Kyle is like, very, very, very smart. And the reason I bring this up is not to make Kyle like, feel uncomfortable, which I'm sure I'm doing as well. Because he's uncomfortable. Yeah, just but I'm trying to set up our conversation because Kyle and I were hanging out earlier last year, and kind of talking a little bit about this intersection between being some sort of like kind of child savant in certain ways that that are now maybe characterized as neurodivergent traits may be on certain different kinds of spectrums, or just being like slightly outside the average or normal on certain traits that and, and Kyle and I really relate on this because I think, you know, I had a few things where I was also like, very, you know, very smart, if you remember those governors scholarships, you know, if you've got like, top 5% in the state, you got all these scholarships, well, I got all of them, you know, like, like, we kind of were at the top of certain, certain intellectual pursuits, but then kind of, but then, like, we really struggled to, like, feel like we belonged and fit in and, like socially. And, um, you know, I'll speak for myself, but, you know, like substance misuse issues and stuff that like, my social emotional learning was like, way behind. Right. And so I'm just so curious to kind of explore, actually, let's ask you if you're a latchkey kid,
Anne Sherry 19:12
right, right. We've been neglecting the initial questions. Yes. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 19:19
So were you a latchkey kid, which means you were physically left alone at home or were you in urgent meaning like emotional neglect? All of the above? Or a friend? None of the above?
Kyle Kimball 19:30
Oh, yeah, yes.
The latchkey kid thing. I mean, it wasn't until later in, like say like starting in high school. My mom decided that she was going to start going back to school and so then she was gone. Our father was never around. He would always work in either LA or San Francisco and so he would have like his own apartment. So he was never there. So yeah, I would say like a solid 50 60% of the time. Was solo and then I mean, emotionally neglected. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 19:59
it
Anne Sherry 20:01
yes with three syllables. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 20:06
Yes. And what did that look like?
Kyle Kimball 20:08
I mean, just the constant, you know, like, the tiger mom stuff and then never being trusted never being able to say anything that wasn't immediately like, you know contested.
Really not having even when I would speak up and say, Hey, these things are causing me trouble.
Too bad. You know, we don't we don't have trouble in this family. So
Alison Cebulla 20:33
yeah, your house always made me think of because again Kyle and I've been friends since kids your house growing up made me think of,
you know in Ferris Bueller, the Cameron character where he says Your house is like a museum. It's very cold and you can't touch anything that always made that always popped into my head with your house. Your mom even had like museum display cases. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah, it was a place. It was a place. Less for living and more for observe. Exactly. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 21:05
It was a weird house to have dogs. I was about to say, but luckily you had dogs. Yeah. Did you have siblings? Or did you say I have a younger sister? And his younger sister is my brother's grade. So it's like, yeah.
Alison Cebulla 21:18
Well, I was kind of matched. But Kyle, you actually skipped a couple grades.
Kyle Kimball 21:22
Yeah, I skipped a it was sixth grade, I think and then maybe started kindergarten early. Yeah. You were like already younger age. And then you skipped a grade? Yeah. So yeah, your parents shouldn't have done that.
I mean, I got here.
I got to this pod faster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. By a full year. But no,
Alison Cebulla 21:43
I'm because I think like a lot of the thinking in the 90s, like 80s. And 90s was like,
push kids. And now. And it's funny because you live in the Netherlands. And I was reading an article many years ago that was like, they don't teach kids stuff at home before they go to school because they want kids to have friends. And that that definitely makes sense. Yeah, I was. I think I did. Yeah. But so for me, like, I definitely got lessons at home before I started kindergarten. And so I would often have to be pulled out of class to go have a special lesson away from my peers. And I thought all my peers, even in kindergarten were fucking idiots. And that's not good for making friends. It turns out,
Kyle Kimball 22:24
they can't even color inside the lines is bullshit. No, I'm not kidding. In first grade. I'll never forget it. Yeah, we all raise our hand to answer this question. And this kid raised his hand. And when she called him, he went, um, and by the way, it may have been Nate or Tim, that I did this.
Alison Cebulla 22:42
And I said out loud in front of the whole class, I screened it out. I said, Why don't you raise your hand if you don't know the answer?
Anne Sherry 22:57
Yeah, I wasn't
Alison Cebulla 22:58
trying to I mean, it just didn't make sense why he would raise his hand if he didn't know the answer. Like in my head. It just didn't make sense. And I honestly was just trying to get clarity, right, like,
Kyle Kimball 23:07
well, because for people like us, it was like, we would know the answer. And then it is unthinkable that you would know that aid you don't you don't have like the ability to understand that. Everybody processes things different.
Alison Cebulla 23:17
I had no ability to understand. Yeah, yeah.
Kyle Kimball 23:22
Which is still is a struggle sometimes.
Alison Cebulla 23:28
So, but that being said, is what I'm saying is like, like nowadays, they know that the social emotional development is like, slightly more important, like, like, fitting in with your peers is really important. So they probably wouldn't or shouldn't, like, have a kid skip grades, because they I think they should just let you stay with your age peers and probably like, enhance and enrich education in other ways. That's what I think.
Kyle Kimball 23:55
The other day, it was compounded by moving schools. Oh, sorry.
Anne Sherry 23:59
Like that early development, too. It's like, I mean, there's a whole year where, you know, you may have somebody who starts school, that can be a whole year difference. But in kindergarten, like August started, my kid started, which he should not have started school in kindergarten. He was five. So he met the deadline. But it's, you know, he's okay now, but he's kind of been sort of okay. Yeah, he's okay.
Alison Cebulla 24:25
Well, I don't you think and this is a great question for Kyle, because you think about class politics so often, but like the kind of myths of the meritocracy that feeds into this, like, what do you think?
Kyle Kimball 24:35
Yeah, I mean, well, I think it goes back into like, the question of why does public education exist, which was functionally a place to provide a place for the children of industrial laborers to go be indoctrinated for eight plus hours a day so that they could become good little factory owners. And so, I mean, very little has changed in terms of the orientation of public education and I think there's this really wonderful thinker Paulo Sierra is tucked, he wrote this book called the pedagogy of the oppressed, which talks about the way that the educational system as it is so currently designed. It relies upon like banking logic, where you just fill the brain with as much stuff as you can and then regurgitate Oh, look, now they've learned. Obviously, that doesn't work. It does not encourage critical thinking like, this would be an like what you were talking about, like, why are grades? Like what if the purpose of education is to learn then why are we getting, like, graded on a timescale? And then if we do not meet some arbitrary level of achievement, everything goes to shit. Like, it doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to help kids. So yeah, like gait and all of that, then it's just an extension of class warfare, where it's like, you've got the labor or kids, you know, doing their labor program. And then the children have like the technocrats who had the resources to like start reading earlier or, you know, right, didn't have you know, a latchkey. They weren't latchkey kids. So they had parents that were around, you know, reading to them, like playing games, investing in their development. And so naturally, it's like, you're gonna have that Headstart. That's right. Other kids don't?
Alison Cebulla 26:08
How much are they investing in you? Yeah. And which worker B program, do you get put on which track?
Kyle Kimball 26:15
Yeah, which algorithm? Are you forced to? Are you forced to live?
Alison Cebulla 26:18
Yeah. That is just, yeah. And so what track Do you think you were put on?
Kyle Kimball 26:25
Well, I mean, they told me at various times that like, they anticipated that I would become a lawyer or politician, which anybody that knows me now would know that, like, my least favorite kind of person is a politician. For sure. I mean, I am going to be a lawyer, because that's happening. But it's in refugee law and immigration law. So it's not like, you know, I'm not gonna get paid for it.
Alison Cebulla 26:50
That's true. But what kind of take us on your journey of discovering and finding that actually, because I want to kind of I want to tie that into, like your healing journey. So let's like kind of maybe start there. Because like, what I kind of wanted to talk about is like, when, especially for kids, I would say born in the 80s. But and you tell me and was born in the late 60s. And it's like the 80s. I essentially, I know. Trauma wasn't talked about trauma, we didn't have social emotional learning programs. So we kind of got through thinking like, oh, like, there's kind of like something special about me or something, because I'm engaged. And I'm really good at all these things. And like for you, you know, you're winning all these awards. I had a few things I got, you know, I got a few scholarships for things. I was like doing state honors choir, you know, I was like, technically excelling. But then when you and I got to college, it should hit the fan.
Kyle Kimball 27:57
Yeah, well, the wheels came off, because nothing that we'd ever done, at least in my case, like was for me, like, I was not the one directing it. I didn't have any agency, these were just things that I was expected to do. If I did not complete these expectations, then there was going to be hell to pay. So I get to college. And it's like, I've been in this fucking crucible my entire life with these abusive parents and in this environment that was just hugely combative, intense and toxic all the time. And then you get to like, oh, I can smoke weed and drink beer and not have to think about this stuff. I can turn my brain off. And so that's what I did. Because I didn't know I didn't hear about it. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 28:38
Yeah, yeah, every day.
Kyle Kimball 28:42
Good times. Good.
Alison Cebulla 28:42
I have no regrets. To be honest, those were really good times. Because it felt like to me that we were really like decompressing from our childhood crucible is such a good way to say it. And when we got to college, we just kind of had to, like thaw out was like, just like a pressure cooker. Yeah. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 29:00
Yeah, it was brutal. Why would? Why wouldn't you choose? So then we then we went the other direction.
Alison Cebulla 29:06
Yeah. So, um, so then you got on a track where you were like, you know, I'm just gonna make a bunch of money in tech. Let me try that. But then you kind of like had a revelation that led to your emotional healing. So I was wondering if you could walk us through how that went down and kind of maybe like some of the age ranges where this was occurring and what what started it?
Kyle Kimball 29:32
Yeah, there was so like, a big moment was, I mean, I had struggled pretty much since I had like originally dropped out of college and then, you know, life and then managed to like somehow fashion a career for myself that was doing pretty well, but I think it was like 27 my grandfather died him and I were pretty close or very close. And I think I started to realize that, like, all of this that I was doing was just because you No, I was working with some of the worst people on the planet just making the money and making rich people richer, man if you want to see the face of the devil, like, do that, like because it's just you weren't you were forced to confront, you know, the raw avarice of the architects of our society. And, you know, the the leaders of industry, and it's just disgusting. So I started to have like a, I guess, like the veil piercing moment, I was always an anti capitalist, but it was like, this was a necessary evil just to like fund myself. And then it was, like, overwhelming it was I was crying in my office, you know, on a daily basis, like having breakdowns. I had a whole nasty year of surgery. And so somewhere in that time, I think I was like, 20. Yeah, 27 days.
Alison Cebulla 30:43
But can I slow you down just for a second? Because the the illness was actually pretty severe. It wasn't just like, it was like life threatening.
Kyle Kimball 30:51
Yeah, I mean, it was a whole year of like surgery, and recovering from surgery. It's nasty. I don't know how much. Let's just say that things were happening in parts of the body that it's not great. For guys. Okay. His
Alison Cebulla 31:07
body shut down part of his body shut down. There's I mean, I stopped working and threatened his life. Yeah. I think
Anne Sherry 31:14
it wanted you on operating tables. What you were doing your body? Maybe you actually
Alison Cebulla 31:21
quit what you were doing? Yeah. And yeah, and go on? And kind of like, yeah, have some some healing moment. So you know, then what happened?
Kyle Kimball 31:29
Well, I mean, I had a therapist at the time that that started. And we had already been working through like a lot of the early childhood stuff that I had more or less blocked out. Yeah, or just assumed was normal. And she disabused me of that notion, it was very clear that a lot of what I experienced was far from normal, and maybe they should be, you know, they should have been punished by a carceral. State for it. But I cut them off. I haven't talked to my parents since then. I sent like one last goodbye. And it was like, you know, the next time I see you will be at your funerals. So peace. And that was a big moment. What
Alison Cebulla 32:05
did that feel like? To What did that feel like? Was it one specific moment? Or was it a series of moments where you went, Oh, fuck, that was actually abusive.
Kyle Kimball 32:16
It was like over the course of like three or four sessions, it just became like, oh, oh, I'm not just like, she agrees. LIKE or let me know. I didn't know. Right. So the therapist was telling me and yeah, that was that was a lot. So I wouldn't say that that necessarily kicked off like a healing journey. But it did. Give me some form of realization that there was an emotional self and an emotional life. That was far better than what I had been.
Alison Cebulla 32:45
Yes. Yeah. And what is this possible what was the before and after? What were you doing before you had that realization of what what has become the after that yours kind of
Kyle Kimball 32:54
I mean, I was certainly like, drinking a lot more. I was like, very unhealthy. Like now. I mean, like, I lift weights, and yeah, I get big. We talk about feelings. And we talk about Yeah, very openly and vulnerably. Like in honestly, with everyone. Whether they
Alison Cebulla 33:14
hurt my feelings because I was currently wearing a very cute shirt with a cat a really cute fluffy like little kitten, what does it say?
Kyle Kimball 33:23
What am I even doing?
Alison Cebulla 33:26
And I have to say, actually, your personal style even got a little softer on the edges. After you had your kind of healing awakening, you were like, you know, I'm gonna wear the colors. I'm gonna wear the cat's cute. I mean, you
Kyle Kimball 33:37
I quit. I got fired. So I was like, finally able to. That was a huge moment, too, is like getting fired from that job was like this was inevitable. So I don't regret that it happened. And it gave me like the oomph necessary to like, figure shit out, like, what do I want? And after futzing around with that? Yeah, I ended up in Europe.
Alison Cebulla 34:00
And what led you to the to do the refugee law.
Kyle Kimball 34:04
So I was at Caltech doing my EU and international law degree. And as I was serving sort of, like what was available for to continue this because to practice law in the EU, to have what's called like civil effect, at least in the Netherlands requires you to have both an undergraduate degree in law and then an advanced degree, and then you have to take the test. So of all the programs, you know, cybersecurity law, corporate law, like blah, blah, no, none of that matters. So I was just, you know, that's true to what I am interested in, which is trying to resist, you know, the most awful outcomes inevitable to capitalism. So, that's why I'm doing this. Because people are going to keep moving, that's not going to stop. So we can either have safe routes for migration, or, you know, we turn the Mediterranean into the world's largest graveyard, which seems to be the plan now, but that's why I'm here. Thank you. I mean, I'm not like a savior or anything. It's like, who knows what I could impact but it's better than nothing, right? It's better than one more like a corporate lawyer,
Alison Cebulla 35:06
right? I just always say that on the pod. Like, when we heal, we each go on our own healing journey to actually look at the things that may have caused us pain and suffering in our life. And like really look at them and feel them and process them. It leads us to more humanitarian careers, because our heart is open. Like we really can't tolerate seeing people suffer anymore. It's it's impossible to go to work and try and recruit for tech, the tech industry that you just don't care about and is making the world actively worse after you've done your healing. That's my opinion. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 35:41
Yeah, I mean, well, both of you went through this, right. I mean, obviously, you Alia and, and I think I familiar with your story.
Alison Cebulla 35:47
Yeah, you did what you were working for. Kinkos?
Anne Sherry 35:50
Oh, yeah. Well, I was I would go in the 2000. You know, late 90s. So I went through the dot bomb. I got laid off. You did? Okay, good. And I don't know, I don't know anything about this actually. Tell us. And I, I'm just because I wasn't in AIG. I didn't have I didn't have to go so far to fall, I was just meandering through. I don't know, San Francisco was a neat city or whatever. And you couldn't help but just fall into a tech job I was getting paid. This doesn't sound like a lot for San Francisco. At that time, it was like $80,000 for nothing. Like just a bit. All I did was, I don't know, have a credit card and say, Hey, your technology is cool. And your technology is cool. Let's go drink in a bar together and like send an email out and shit. I was like, so it was so weird. We didn't know that the
Alison Cebulla 36:48
American Dream that you're talking about. I
Anne Sherry 36:51
stayed in that actually. What am I doing like that? isn't that bad? By anyways, I mean, the money dried up overnight in the 2000. Right. But I was had just hell bent on I want to be creative. And I took every, like a mosaic class, San Francisco, somebody had a, I don't know one of those things where you pay 50 bucks and you learn how to paint or knit or whatever. So I did a ton of that I worked for oh, that's artists at the hunter's Bay Point. i We traded some of my Oh, my organizational skills, don't laugh house. And so she has all the organizational skills. I don't have them anymore. So I used to, I used to know cork and Photoshop and shit like that, like I could page layouts and stuff. Anyway, but yeah, I was moving towards the body centered psychotherapy, I'd had a little bit of that in Boulder. And that always called to me. Like there is something else going on. And being the hero in my family. I was like, I come from some emotional neglect. And so it was always it was I was grateful to for capitalism to spit me out so I could glue shit to plates and do some therapy. And I ended up working in Pilates studio and then move towards
Kyle Kimball 38:17
I still have some of your stuff up on the fridge. It's beautiful.
Anne Sherry 38:24
Yeah, but I saw it to all that greed. It was so weird. It was just you know, like, Thomas, I can't remember what it was. I was working at Kinkos, too. And the IPOs were just going through and they were spending $8,000 on color photos for for an IPO to like, and I was just like, I couldn't understand it. I was like, what is happening? But I was like, Sure I'll take an $8,000 I get commission on that, because I sold it. So it was weird. It was really, really weird. I don't know where I'm going with that sort of
Kyle Kimball 38:54
thing that maybe money isn't real.
Anne Sherry 38:58
Right? It was all like this. And yeah, and you get kicked out of that you get kicked out of your company and they've your family and we love that's a fucked up thing too. You come with all this emotional neglect and these people love you and they have put out spreads of food for you and you're the best and oh my god, you're my best friend blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, monies out by I mean it was like people saying that now. And still relevant. Yeah, like having tantrums and shaking on the floor and you're my family. What am I gonna do you know? And I was like,
Alison Cebulla 39:32
did you guys read about or hear about the fact that Google had sent out mass firing email but not everyone check their email at home. So if you're the one of the people with a good work life balance and you didn't check your email at home, you showed up to work and some people got a green light when they scan their badge and some people got a red light. Whoa,
Anne Sherry 39:54
wow, this just yeah,
Kyle Kimball 39:56
this is this is this and now the media is working overtime to be like look how Oh compassionate these these layoffs have been it's really, it's really good. It's like, well, a all of the things that they're entitled to or they're contractually obligated to receive or else under, like, whatever state law you're gonna get to be what?
Alison Cebulla 40:16
See all of the above? Yeah. Tell me again, tell me again about what a compassionately off looks like, like, I know, I know they have labor law here in Europe so it's actually really difficult to get five and what how does that feel? I because you know, it's I've heard pluses and minuses, obviously you're, you know, we have our entrance to viewpoints but like I have some friends who lived in LA for a little while from Belgium. And they said like, they could see how, because there wasn't like this constant like pyramid scheme, capitalistic drive, there wasn't that sense of innovation or wanting to show up and like do your best work, which obviously has its downsides, but they kind of liked it in America, you know, compared to working in Belgium and France, which I'm like, Yeah, I could see that. You know, I mean, like, it's, it's so sometimes people say, yeah, people just don't try that hard in Europe. Not I'm not trying to put it down and just kind of contrasting the energy, you know,
Kyle Kimball 41:12
what I mean, they get paid so much more in the US. So it's like granted, like, yeah, like, the big reason why people move from here to there is because the tax rates are so much lower, and you get paid so much more. So if you're making dollars, you know, at a tech company in the US, you're easily making double what you would make for a comparable role here for the most part, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, I can see why they would like to do it's because they're fucking rich.
Anne Sherry 41:36
If you're not rich, just culturally, I mean, no health. I mean, how cares shit. You know, whatever it like it's dystopian, over here. For sure. It's dystopian, for sure. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 41:49
What's the one where Arnold Schwarzenegger is like out running? Everything? Do you wanna timeout?
Anne Sherry 41:55
Like a movie?
Kyle Kimball 41:56
We lived through that? Oh.
Anne Sherry 42:00
Hold on. Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Kyle Kimball 42:02
California.
Alison Cebulla 42:04
This is an 80s movie. We're just on the run like the entire movie. Oh, running in the running. Yes. Yes. Right. Is that it? Yeah. No, is that
Kyle Kimball 42:13
yeah, that was the movie. That was the movie where it was like a super dystopian like television show where they had people that were like, either threats to the state or just prisoners in general, would then be put on and then forced to compete and like it was a remake of an earlier thing from the 60s.
Alison Cebulla 42:26
Yeah, it's 1987. It is.
Anne Sherry 42:31
Did not see this movie. It was like,
Alison Cebulla 42:33
Well, wait, here's the hit wait. Arnold Schwarzenegger plays Ben Richards, also known as the Butcher of Bakersfield, for firing, which by the way is right by our hometown. We're firing upon a crowd of humans in a food strike. This is more relevant than I intended.
And he has to okay, we Shut the front door of the year and the movie is night 2019. Really? Okay, so, in scary nailed in the year 2019. America is a totalitarian state, where the favorite television program is the running man, a game show in which prisoners must run to freedom or to avoid a brutal death. Having been made a scapegoat by the government and in prison Ben Richard plays by Arnold Schwarzenegger has the opportunity to make it back to the outside again by being a contestant on the deadly show.
Kyle Kimball 43:38
This one was a ripoff of they got sued it was a 1983 French movie We literally don't
Alison Cebulla 43:45
know but this it says it's based on it it's based on a Stephen King novel
Kyle Kimball 43:51
what is going on? Wow. All right, well, I'm just gonna get stuck in Wikipedia. I
Alison Cebulla 43:56
know I need to know everything about this. Yeah, it does. I don't know why I said that. I don't know why I was reminded of the although it does seem like extremely relevant so I'm glad I looked it up. But doesn't it feel like a little bit like we're in in like the Running Man right now like in terms of like we're it's like a competition to have like survival of the fittest like in the worst terrible like eugenics way of like, oh, like only those who have access to like, certain resources including knowledge resources like are going to make it through like look at COVID in the United States like but our government was basically like we'll just let people die it's fine. Yeah, like they weren't even healthy anyway it's there we don't need oh and guess who
Anne Sherry 44:38
Guess who went to school
Alison Cebulla 44:40
private schools kept
Anne Sherry 44:41
kept marching along so all those kids I know we're we've already established that going to school is fucking dumb. It sounds like or it or it makes you like, I guess you're already like being indoctrinated. And but I don't know what else I don't know. What do you know, this is more than turning. I don't know what well What to replace it on? Or how to move it towards that but but private kids in private school. They just kept going to school. So they have no break. They had no real break. They maybe took a month or two off or whatever, but they're like, and there's lots of parents who had funds that pulled them out of public schools and those kids are in private schools. So yeah, so they you know, that wide, huge.
Alison Cebulla 45:25
Kyle, your friend, your friend, my cousin, Ben, Kyle did debate with my cousin Ben. He did that they just looked around until like, someone would take their money to put their kid to school. Yeah, yep. Which, I mean, kind of brilliant. And but that's the game we're playing.
Anne Sherry 45:42
Well, and then you have computers and who's gonna watch at home but we have a whole new latchkey generation, the COVID generation. Yeah, it's those kids were left had probably had to be I think, although you probably wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to say that so much. You go to jail if you leave your kids by themselves, or they? I mean, they're
Alison Cebulla 46:02
just horrible stories. No, you don't actually, huh. Nothing happens.
Kyle Kimball 46:08
The state has to care. Okay. In the state, the state only cares about your children and as much as like their future earning potential is concerned. So yeah, they don't really care that your kids like I mean, because during COVID I mean, I remember reading about kids, you know, obviously, this is inevitable like kids like in California, many states that didn't have internet. And who's gonna pay for that? Because if your parents are both day laborers that work, you know, picking fruit and the farms of California, I will say that probably having gigabit internet connection is not exactly a priority in your family. And so what are those kids supposed to do? So that the parents take the kids drop them off at McDonald's, which has Wi Fi? And then of course, the McDonald's? Gets pissy because we don't want you know, these indigent children learning in our burger Institute. Or University?
Alison Cebulla 46:55
Yeah. Um, so speaking of food, Kyle, Oh, yeah. What was your go to meal to make as a kid when you were kind of left to your own devices? Come on. Oh, man.
Kyle Kimball 47:07
So Karina would come? Yeah, we Karina and I would come back if we were having a case of D is like the end all be all.
Alison Cebulla 47:15
These are amazing. Actually. No one has to do before and it's been missed. I know. We really
Anne Sherry 47:22
didn't have that kind of bread. We only have no, not necessarily not in the 70s. I don't think anybody know tortillas in the south of the seven right in and tell me anybody? No, it was just like Wonder Bread and shit like that. So wait, tortillas? What do you put on it? Yes. Yeah. Cassidy
Alison Cebulla 47:41
is Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 47:42
Oh, I mean, we always had like, some kind of cheeses around and then. Yeah, tortilla cheese. I don't know. I'm a fat kid. I put like, all weird sauces in there. Mayonnaise, like, I don't know, like hot sauce. We did eat. We always have like, we eat a lot of hot sauce growing, which I appreciate because
Anne Sherry 48:00
it is really weird. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 48:02
I'm California. No, but kids don't like spicy things. That's all I'm saying. Like, these kids are?
Anne Sherry 48:11
Interesting.
Alison Cebulla 48:12
Well, so let's come back to I kind of want to talk about neuro divergence and trauma, when you grew up in a home where your parents are not able to, for whatever reason or another, whether they have their own trauma, whether there's economic pressures or struggles, but they're not able to engage with their children. Right you you require you need a parent to look you in the face when you're little and COO at you. And that energy has to be there of we're so glad you're here. We are so glad you're here. And if you miss that, it's so painful, that your brain just shuts off some of the emotional regions. And that's where I think that some of these savant characteristics can come into play, you know, where, for me, you know, let me just read every book I can get my hands on, which is something I still to do to this day, because it's my coping strategy. And, you know, oh, like, it doesn't feel safe at home. And I didn't have it the worst by any means. But it doesn't. It's not feeling like the warmest and safest at home. Let me my brain is adapting in a way that's attracting me to other forms of, of being essentially right, which is neuro divergence, right? I'm not, because like, the thing didn't happen, where I was, like, let's say, let's call it like, properly socialized, or, you know, like the like, like you would say about a dog or something, you know what I mean? Or like, I'm serious. Or like that attachment didn't happen where you're, like, properly attached, you know, to your parent, then your brain is gonna go, Well, I can't use this region. I'm gonna go use this region over here instead. Yeah. Right.
Kyle Kimball 49:50
I mean, and that's the that's the the beauty of the whole problem is that it's cyclical because you'd have to have then those parents acknowledge their own trauma. And then for them to have done that their parents would have had to ignore legit. And if you go back far enough, it's like okay, I get to some extent like why survival mode probably takes precedence over emotional needs. But then once those needs are met like the physical, maybe we can start focusing on why we feel like shit all the time and why maybe we don't want to extend that to our children. Or maybe don't have the kid if you don't want them would be it would be a good first place to start anything
Anne Sherry 50:27
weird I get so like, was this inevitable? Or was there a point where we could have made a different choice? Or is this power is just going to do is power always gonna do what it is until it fucks until it like everybody's dead? You know? I don't know. Like, are we gonna learn? Are we growing? Are we gonna have a balance? Or is this what we're just we're gonna just like destroy this planet like and just
Kyle Kimball 50:49
some of us some of us are we can't destroy the planet we're
Anne Sherry 50:52
gonna the planet will be fine. We're gonna destroy we're gonna destroy ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Which is going to Yeah, and I don't I don't know. The sermon this morning. Like as long
Alison Cebulla 51:02
as like why are we killing ourselves? Like
Kyle Kimball 51:10
make like go up.
Anne Sherry 51:12
Oh, make life complicated line go.
Kyle Kimball 51:15
Have you even ever jack in an economics class one go.
Anne Sherry 51:21
At all human costs. I was just listening. I went on a walk this morning and listen to a little bit more of the book. I still like listen, and listen. I'm still got like eight hours to go. It is a big but yeah. But he was he was it was pretty much in the indictment on capitalism. He was like capitalist, essentially getting people addicted to sugar. And you know, and so I asked flour, and I ate a cookie the other day, and I was like, Oh, this is doing something.
Alison Cebulla 51:47
No, sugar is the ultimate symbol of ourselves. Um, yeah, no, I let me explain. So Europeans were, you know, like, we're bored, or whatever. And so I'm serious. And so and they were like the plague. This sucks. Let's get out of here. And so they quote unquote, explore. I love that narrative. And it discloses a
Anne Sherry 52:09
whole list of euphemisms. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 52:13
Um, find Brazil, find the Caribbean find the Deep South, and they go wow, like, this soil is amazing. Let's you know what else we just discovered, quote, unquote, sugar cane. Oh, and which address there Travis,
Anne Sherry 52:29
did it address traumatize people probably in the Sugar Bowl. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 52:35
Like NASA was forever like medieval torture devices, like won't be able to sleep for a week. Yeah. And so they were like, cool. Let's refine the shatter this basically turn sugarcane into crack cocaine. Literally, and they're like, we could get so many suckers addicted to this shit. Yeah, that's what he was. They're like, God, how are we going to grow this? How are we going to grow this? Oh, I know.
Kyle Kimball 53:04
Only there was a way to have somebody work for you. And you didn't have to pay?
Alison Cebulla 53:08
Yeah, so sugarcane. More than any other crop, in my opinion, more than tobacco more than I mean, this is the evil list crop. This is the evils. And you know, and that I, you know, went on this thing where I quit sugar in 2016. Yep. And really changed my life. But when you actually look at the politics of sugar, yeah, that has really fueled my ability to just keep, I mean, I do eat like sugar here and there. But it's not like a part of my life anymore. Because this is it like the the vibe of it is evil. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 53:41
Yeah. Look at NAFTA. NAFTA. Yes. Right. sugar production was a huge component of the Central American free trade treaty and or the agreement. Yeah. And same with NAFTA. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 53:52
Well, I actually and how it screwed up people, people, our listeners won't know what NAFTA is. But basically, you may have heard it, but it was a policy in the in the 1990s. put forth by the Clinton administration. Clinton, by the way, has publicly formally apologized. He said, I thought NAFTA was going to be a good thing. And it decimated Latin America. It just decimated. And here's an example that makes it really easy to understand. Basically, what we said was, you have to remove all your tariffs on imports, because globalization is going to move you into the 21st century with us. So just take away all your tariffs, right free trade North American Free Trade Agreement. But in America, we were like, oh, but we're special because of American exceptionalism. So we're not actually going to stop subsidizing the crops that we grow. So what happens in America is we have these big, big big monocultures, like soybeans, sugar corn, they're really bad for the ecology. Like nothing can survive on these like not not insects, not bunnies, not you know, like nothing, nothing cannot humans. If that's what I'm saying. Yeah. And so we pit we subsidize, meaning we pay farmers because they don't make a profit to grow these monocultures. And so what happened with Mexico specifically is that it became cheaper for them to import our subsidized corn then grow their own. And so you have really ignorant ignorant Americans going, why are they coming here? They don't want to come here. They do not want to come here. Mexicans are actually happier than Americans like every time they're polled. Yeah, they had to come here because we did this to them with the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Kyle Kimball 55:27
Yeah. And we bought their currency in 1995. Was it because the peso it would depreciate it. And so the IMF comes in, and it's like, here's a $50 billion buyout of basically Mexico. Yeah, certainly no long lasting implications for that, as you know, they experienced a gnarly, like mortgage crisis and complete economic disaster in 1994 1995. And that affects being you know, felt to this day is so Yes.
Anne Sherry 55:53
Which is why you're doing bad. I only going to, I'm gonna go down to just one bag of candy corns. And next. I'm not gonna do three.
Kyle Kimball 56:07
I thought you were gonna say one bag per day. And I was like, Oh, I was like, Oh,
Anne Sherry 56:12
I do have a bag. A bag of candy hearts in my console, so I don't know. Yeah. Working on it.
Kyle Kimball 56:19
I have some candy from Iran that a friend of mine in my program gifted me.
Alison Cebulla 56:24
Is it made with sugar cane. Is that what they use? Or do they use honey? It's like,
Kyle Kimball 56:28
Honey, cardamom. It's actually really good. You need to come come to Amsterdam and I will give.
Alison Cebulla 56:35
I'll be right over. Yes. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 56:38
Just catching up. Right? Well, yeah, you can cycle most of the way.
Alison Cebulla 56:43
So that kind of leads me to my final question. Before we do the feelings wheel game. We really actually quite even though it seemed like we were on tangents, like we hit the mark. Like this is exactly you know, this is exactly it. But what is it like it when
Anne Sherry 56:57
you when you when you talk to gate? Kids, they know how to talk? Killer good talkers and converters.
Kyle Kimball 57:05
And I smoked a bunch of weed before so that's why I'm just super cute. Of course not. Of course not. Oh, no, no, no, of course.
Alison Cebulla 57:18
I'm I'm impressed. Me. Okay. No, no. Okay.
Kyle Kimball 57:22
I'll wait until that same
Anne Sherry 57:25
can everything in Amsterdam. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 57:28
we have talked a lot about cultural factors in the US. But like, Do you have any other thoughts about the cultural factors here that are just basically kind of like fucking people over that lead us to the addiction and the depression? And what have you?
Kyle Kimball 57:44
Yeah, I mean, I think well, I mean, everybody talks about, like, you know, the rugged individualism, hyper individualistic characteristics of America and the way that we have developed, you know, the idea of the nuclear family as a way of distancing people from community and creating these discrete units of consumption, that are not supportive of each other outside of like, whatever their own little tribal group is, and even then, you know, it's hit or miss. Whereas here, I think, you know, maybe the Netherlands is a really poor example. Because it is a very, like, I'd say, hyper capitalist society, but even then, it's like their, their general orientation towards, at least for Dutch citizens, like communal benefit is, it's a very pragmatic and rational. And so when they think you think about like, the American system of doing things they're like, but this does not make sense. Like, this is not an optimal outcome for your people. And we're like, yeah, man, but I've got like, 53 different kinds of peanut butter in the grocery store. Even though, even though they're all made by the same company, using different labels, the illusion of choice gets me so hot and bothered. I can't take it so
Anne Sherry 58:50
yeah, and then I get so depressed and at that you're selling the 17,000.
Alison Cebulla 58:56
Yes, when you go to the Netherlands, and you go to the American food section, it is a it is a dystopian nightmare. What is it? No, it's the scariest food on one pop tarts. Fruity Pebbles, like Lucky Charms, like what else?
Anne Sherry 59:15
Yeah, looking back at you. Yes.
Kyle Kimball 59:21
And that's my it's a really it's a really sad and mirrors
Alison Cebulla 59:23
really, really, really depressing. Yes. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 59:27
But I mean, it's the only place you can get like blue box Kraft mac and cheese sales. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 59:31
When do you need your MAC Fix? Yeah, where are you? Yeah,
Kyle Kimball 59:35
they don't have ranch dressing in Europe. They haven't invented that.
Anne Sherry 59:39
What about 1000 Ireland and I would drink that.
Alison Cebulla 59:43
I'm like, it's the best cheese. What's wrong with you guys? You have to go to the Irish really section to get cheddar cheese? Yeah,
Kyle Kimball 59:49
yeah. The British and the British and Irish.
Alison Cebulla 59:53
It's the best cheese like stop. Yeah, it's better than Gouda. How to
Kyle Kimball 59:59
do that? Whoo hoo to Casa Yeah, like the just like to wrap that up, it's like you also I think one of the ways that you notice like the immediate, the immediate output of the system that is not so like hyper individualistic is that, you know, here where I live in Amsterdam, drugs are highly accessible, highly accessible, you can literally text a number, they will send you a menu and then someone will come up and finding this is not difficult, like it's really really easy. And yet the Dutch don't really do drugs it's almost exclusively for tourists like all the coffee shops, all the people smoking pot, like that's just tourists and you know, immigrants that, you know, largely come from like the West. And I think a lot of the reason for that is because, obviously when your needs are met, you don't have to self soothe and self medicate. Show
Anne Sherry 1:00:49
that in studies. Yeah, if they have a lot to do. Yeah, the rats study. I think that's an Gabor's book too, but like if they have a lot of stuff to keep them occupied, like I don't know, games and exercise wheels and whatnot. They're like rat Park. That's what they I don't study rat Park, right? Yeah, they're like we don't really are we gonna
Kyle Kimball 1:01:11
go to rats? You have an Express Pass? Can I get to the front of Disneyland?
Anne Sherry 1:01:20
Yes, right. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 1:01:21
It's funny that it was never the cocaine. It was always the terrible it was always the terrible environment. Like that's such an important lesson like, like a researcher
Anne Sherry 1:01:31
wouldn't even think to like, let me be curious if it's if you know, like why they didn't even think to like rats
Kyle Kimball 1:01:40
living in like a cannibalistic organization like eating each other. It's like God I could really use some this is terrible as
Alison Cebulla 1:01:49
are some patches little baby sticking them on each other. Damn it. Okay, don't give redstone don't know what's not tiny bit with your brain on drugs now that we're having an egg crisis. You know, like, oh, we haven't an egg crisis. I do feel like right now.
Kyle Kimball 1:02:18
It's an artificial crisis. But it doesn't
Alison Cebulla 1:02:21
mean it's about your brain on drugs.
Kyle Kimball 1:02:24
Because it's no longer smashing. Too expensive. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 1:02:27
Yeah, it is.
Kyle Kimball 1:02:29
A lot of part of the US. Yeah, like eggs. Eggs cost like a month of like, at least federal minimum wage. You know, seven was it 715 750? Yeah. For doesn't
Alison Cebulla 1:02:39
usually like SNAP benefits. You're really only getting about 200 bucks a month. Like that's, that's not enough eggs to feed a whole family. Yeah,
Kyle Kimball 1:02:48
I know. I was just trying to pass that word. SNAP recipients don't get like bread, meat cheese. It's like, okay, I'm all for like doing vegan. But also, these people are not buying lobster.
Alison Cebulla 1:02:59
It's just another Running Man. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 1:03:02
it's really just a slow walk to death. Actually, it seems like it's not no one's running. They're just like crawling because they have rheumatoid arthritis because of all the trauma.
Yeah, the lead all right. All right, joining us
Alison Cebulla 1:03:44
first, I did. Okay, it's me this time. I'm gonna go that. So Kyle, okay. I guess so a random word generator. It has a bunch of feeling words in it. I'm going to generate a word for everyone. And we share what it feels like in the body and a time we recently felt that feeling. Okay. Okay, so
Kyle Kimball 1:04:06
I will give me a good one to be pretty.
Anne Sherry 1:04:09
Or maybe like, for joy, joy is joy feeling.
Alison Cebulla 1:04:14
Okay, I have I got embarrassed. I've had this one before. I think
Anne Sherry 1:04:20
really? You got that one though? I
Alison Cebulla 1:04:22
know it's been a while it's been a while. So it's it's to me, I think it's like probably the most one of the most important feelings words because I think a lot of the violence that happens in the world, especially as it relates to toxic masculinity happens when men feel embarrassed and they have a no healthy way to process that emotion. And all sorts of wild things happen. I mean, just look at literally everything Trump ever did. He was basically just it was just one embarrassing moment after the next and he had no way to process so that's where he would just get on in life and register it spew no it doesn't. But it's still yeah Yeah, I mean, the infant or whatever the toddler in him, you know,
Anne Sherry 1:05:04
totally, totally, that dude is traumatized as far as,
Alison Cebulla 1:05:08
um, so Oh, dude, I've never felt more embarrassed in my whole life than last night. Okay, this was like I was, I almost think the better word is mortified, but I'm just going to stick with it. But basically it was my I have like a bonus set of grandparents because it's like my dad's brother's wife's parents. But like, We're close, like, I consider them like another like bonus set of grandparents. And so my grandpa Paul turn 90 Actually today. And so he is a pianist. And so he put on like this piano concert. So we went to that this was in New York City. And my bonus grandma Saara is 92. And she her health is like been faltering in the in most recent years. And she had an accident this week where she broke something in her upper body. And when I saw her yesterday, I went in to give her a hug. Ah, worst moment of my life. Luckily, someone yelled at me before it happened, but I was like, hello, you knew she was in an accident. And she had like a sling. But like I actually couldn't see it. So like, it didn't register. She needed like a big warning sign. But I actually I went out to the main room where the rest of the family was, and I was like, you guys, I just did this thing and make sure you don't touch her. She doesn't get to have hugs. And everyone was like, No, everyone was like, Oh, I would have actually hugged her. So like, Thanks for the heads up. So I transformed into a public service announcement. Okay, okay. There was this moment. I want to talk about it because it was really intense. I felt so embarrassed, so mortified, so inconsiderate. Here's this frail, poor woman that I love. And I'm just like, bounding in there. Yeah. It made me feel really like embarrassed, like, in of my body, because it was a bodily embarrassment. Like, how can I just ignore and just bound in there, you know, all these and it was just a shame spiral. Just absolute shame spiral
Anne Sherry 1:07:19
is so public in front of family and what Yes, yeah,
Alison Cebulla 1:07:23
yeah. So, um let me say
Anne Sherry 1:07:32
how I got out of embarrassment. Okay, good. This is good. We need to know this. I was like,
Alison Cebulla 1:07:37
Alson. Like you, you need to come back. Like you need to come back in the room. And so I did like a sensory thing of like, what is the chair feel like? What is the wall? That's super
Anne Sherry 1:07:46
helpful. Yeah. And the back of the room,
Alison Cebulla 1:07:49
I did some breathing. I sort of was I looked at my thoughts. Instead of believing them. It was just like, those are just thoughts. And then that was when I was able to kind of turn to everyone and say, you guys, I just did this thing. sharing with people, it can be really helpful for releasing shame. Like I just said it. I was like, you guys, I just did this really embarrassing thing. And actually, what happened was my uncle John was like, I just did that, too. So by sharing, I got to like unburden my shame. And it was like, No, you're not a freak. Actually, I just did that. Yeah, yeah. And then like I said, the whole, the whole room was like, Oh, my God, thank you for the heads up. So it's so interesting, because I wanted to just stay trapped in my shame forever, and just tell myself that I was a terrible person. But by speaking out loud, which I had to do after like, presencing, it just completely transformed the moment. So that's that
Anne Sherry 1:08:38
that thing, which we talked about being safe in your vulnerability, that's it sounds like an example. Because that was you, it was vulnerable for you to speak up. I imagine that you have to get to a certain amount, but if you You're safer in the vulnerability, because generally people will be like, me, too. I just Yeah. Oh, my God, it totally same here, you know, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It only takes like 510 years of therapy to get safe. And don't, don't, don't don't come out of the gate and try that shit. Like you will be traumatized. go to therapy for 10 years, and then you can do that vulnerability. I'm not even doing that. I don't do that. I got five more years of therapy before. I'll do the safe and the vulnerability. I just take my advice. I'm not using it. Go ahead. Okay, let's
Alison Cebulla 1:09:22
see how vulnerable you get right now. I am not going
Anne Sherry 1:09:25
to do it. I have decided, yes. I'm hot. I'm high on ready sugared stuff. Yeah, I eat too many candy hearts for I got here. So
Alison Cebulla 1:09:39
are you ready for your word? It's gonna be guilt. Is it trusting?
Anne Sherry 1:09:46
That sounds all gooey.
Kyle Kimball 1:09:48
I don't know how to trust people as traumatized children.
Anne Sherry 1:09:52
No, I know. Yes. Yeah. Didn't
Alison Cebulla 1:09:56
you just have like a really nice experience like with a group of friends? slike like you have you've been connecting with folks.
Anne Sherry 1:10:03
Oh, oh, Friday morning. Yes, I met with my thank you for reminding me that met with two women we've been. We did a somatic abolitionist training and we've been meeting sounds dope breasts my mannequins work using like Peter Levine sort of trauma stuff. And so how to you know, when you're having hard conversations or in conflict or doing pretty much anything in life, like you just said, you got, you know, how do you come back into your body and all that
Alison Cebulla 1:10:34
energy in the world and you just find out they're somatic and abolitionist, but I'm like, I want to have fun.
Anne Sherry 1:10:41
And then did that too. But I met with my wife, the women I meet with, we meet once a month, it's three of us that we were in a group together. So we meet in person here in Nashville, and I was all fucked up driving there. I was just like, I'm having rage screens in the car about stuff. I'm kind of letting outrage and stuff just but once you're in your 50s, and you scream really loud, like up a little bit, too. So it's not this like, I'm like, god dammit, can I just walk in be angry and now like, it's my pants. So
Alison Cebulla 1:11:16
that quotes going on Instagram.
Anne Sherry 1:11:21
Anyways, and I was just really open with them about like, God, dang, I'm writing in my journal. And it is not pretty. I am letting parts just just speak loud and clear. And I actually made a really great connection, some crying with them. And there's a way that they like, hold space for you and get you back in your body. And it was like it what was clear was, I'm just not having enough fun. I'm not dancing. I'm not wearing colorful clothes. I'm not just going to movie because I want to it's not like, you know, I have a husband and a kid. But that'd be like, go to a fucking movie. You're making us miserable. Like, get out early, you know? Yeah. But I'd have this I'm codependent or something. It's just like, No, you must stay in this. What you said, Kyle about, you know, you're trained to stay in that fucking box with your family. And like, no, it would disappoint my kid, I need to be here with my kid because I was ignored and you're just busy as fuck in your head rather than like, stop making us miserable. Go to a concert and dance your face off. Like Tom doesn't like to do that as much as I'm like I actually do. So I trusted those women. And I'm feeling really trusted and vulnerable actually feeling like safe and my vulnerability right now. I just told everybody in rage screaming in my car and pissing the seat. I'm gonna put you up. I'm gonna drive with a mat and my
whatever. What is
Alison Cebulla 1:12:41
testing feel like?
Anne Sherry 1:12:44
Not tight. I feel very full. I feel loose. I'm like moving my mind. And
Alison Cebulla 1:12:50
you have good epiphanies when you're trusting?
Anne Sherry 1:12:53
I do. Yes. And I finished like four sentences. And I'm really proud of that.
Alison Cebulla 1:12:59
Like, man,
Anne Sherry 1:13:00
I know.
Kyle Kimball 1:13:01
It's ironic that the trust makes you faster and yet less
Anne Sherry 1:13:09
so thank you women that I meet with if you listen to the pod I think they do sometimes I'll tell them to I had to learn to listen these women. Yes, yes. Okay.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:19
So thanks. Yeah. And seen. Okay, Kyle, you're ready. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:13:29
No, they fucking Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 1:13:33
fragile. Oh,
Kyle Kimball 1:13:37
boy, it Yeah, it has been a distinctly fragile like, last, I want to say like, month and a half. It's very like this, this program that I'm in is I you know, I would say that it's demanding, but not overwhelmingly so. But just this last month, like at the beginning of the month, my dad was diagnosed with like, stage four, death cancer. And that's okay. I mean, he's, he's, his death will be better for the planet. But it's still it's like you're lamenting, not what was but what should have or could have been. And that's where you feel very sad. And so it's like, I've had all of these like, academic and like, extracurricular responsibilities. And then on top of that, I'm trying to process like, because I'm reliving like, all of this, you know, abusive shit that he did when I was a kid. Yeah. And so it's like fragile fragility to me feels just like you're just like, swings, like emotional swings, like you can feel like that. Like, you know that that little quaver of breath before you start crying, that's always there. And the way I think, for me to get out of I mean, I think to some extent, you just kind of have to live through it. I think that there's there's there are coping mechanisms, you know, obviously, drinking a lot, it's probably not helpful. But just know, I mean, I, it was funny, I went to the gym and I was like, I'm feeling really like weak and sad and fragile. I'm gonna lift and I was like this actually may not be safe like I was like lifting a lot of weight and I was like, Oh God, like if I start like having a moment, like I will be crushed.
Alison Cebulla 1:15:18
That's interesting, but it helps,
Kyle Kimball 1:15:21
I don't know. You know, I think it's important to remember, like, you know, this too will pass. It's very hard to stay situated and present when you're experiencing like this flood of, you know, this cascade of emotions that dates back to when you were a child. So it's like, you know, I'm 36 So it's like, 3034 odd years of that just hits you all at once. And I think as you get older that probably, you've got even more time to punch you in the gut and
Alison Cebulla 1:15:49
even more trauma to process. Yeah, no, but I assume that you bring that up along and
Anne Sherry 1:15:54
rage screaming and I should try. Yeah, like, rage scream in your 30s while you're still tight down there. Because once you start rage screaming 50s You start like having to wear diapers. Yeah.
Kyle Kimball 1:16:07
Okay, generous of you to think
Alison Cebulla 1:16:09
about bringing up the kissing, Kyle is like, you're never you're most fragile than when you're a kid because you are actually literally helpless. And that is why Child Trauma is a thing, because we need someone else to take care of us. And when they don't fucking do it. We end up with Child Trauma,
Kyle Kimball 1:16:29
or they make it worse. Yeah, so
Alison Cebulla 1:16:33
but I really liked what you said about that. That kind of catch in your chest where you're like am I gonna have a meltdown? I feel like that was like my entire 2022 So like thank you for like labeling that because that's like helping me see that and then like it does feel fragile like I don't think I can make it through the day that it is very overwhelming.
Kyle Kimball 1:16:50
Yeah, it just totally wipes you out and then you're just yeah, you're then you're beset of course by your other responsibilities and your anxiety over not being able to complete those and it becomes this like cascading nightmare. I finally started like actually regularly meditating, which has proven to be super duper helpful. I've done like multiple, like, you know, 30 day plus, like guided meditation regimes that's which is helpful because you know, especially when you're one of these gate kids, for me, it was always very easy to like overthink, and be like, This is stupid. Like why would I do this? I'll just take a nap. No, it turns out people do it for a reason it works.
Anne Sherry 1:17:27
It definitely works. I put nodes on people's heads and their brains to look calmer
Kyle Kimball 1:17:34
I wouldn't be surprised
Alison Cebulla 1:17:37
Well, Kyle, thank you so so my
Anne Sherry 1:17:43
mean Yeah, talking to everything fun Tama thank you and the world is so fun. Thanks
Oh my god. Oh my god.
Kyle Kimball 1:18:00
Really we live in hell.
Anne Sherry 1:18:05
I really like man at least you're burning calories when your
Kyle Kimball 1:18:11
bestie
Anne Sherry 1:18:18
phenomenal
Alison Cebulla 1:18:40
thanks for listening to latchkey urgence and friends. If you like what you heard, follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts but especially Spotify and Apple. And if you didn't like it, just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Sutherland and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
