S2.E9. Up in Your Head: Defining Dissociation
We interview Dr. Jamie Marich about her new book, Dissociation Made Simple: A Stigma-Free Guide to Embracing Your Dissociative Mind and Navigating Daily Life (2023). We talk about how dissociation is a very natural coping strategy for a stressful or traumatic childhood. She's helping define and normalize the term "dissociated."
Dr. Jamie Marich (she/they) describes herself as a facilitator of transformative experiences. A clinical trauma specialist, expressive artist, writer, yogini, performer, short filmmaker, Reiki master, TEDx speaker, and recovery advocate, she unites all of these elements in her mission to inspire healing in others. She began her career as a humanitarian aid worker in Bosnia-Hercegovina from 2000-2003, primarily teaching English and music while freelancing with other projects. Jamie travels internationally teaching on topics related to trauma, EMDR therapy, expressive arts, mindfulness, and yoga, while maintaining a private practice and online education operations in her home base of Northeast Ohio. Jamie is the author of numerous books on trauma recovery and healing, with many more projects in the works. Marich is the founder of The Institute for Creative Mindfulness.
Get her new book here.
JamieMarich.com
RedefineTherapy.com <— all about Dr. Marich’s new book
“Dissociation 101: The go-to guide for understanding your dissociative disorder, breaking the stigma, and healing from trauma-related dissociation.
Guided by clinical counselor Jamie Marich–a trauma-informed clinician living with a dissociative disorder herself–this book tells you everything you need to know about dissociation…but were too afraid to ask.
Here, you’ll learn:
What dissociation is–and why it’s a natural response to trauma
How to understand and work with your “parts”–the unique emotional and behavioral profiles that can develop from personality fragmentation
There’s nothing shameful about dissociating–that, in fact, we can all dissociate
Skills and strategies for living your best, authentic, and most fulfilled life
What to look for in a therapist: choosing a healer who sees you and gets it
Foundational elements of healing from trauma, including PTSD and C-PTSD
With practical guided exercises like “The Dissociative Profile” and “Parts Mapping,” this book is written for those diagnosed with dissociative disorders, clinicians and therapists who treat trauma and dissociation, and readers who are exploring whether they may have dissociative symptoms or a condition like dissociative identity disorder (DID). Dissociation Made Simple breaks it all down accessibly and comprehensively, with empowerment and support–and without stigma, judgment, or shame.” - RedefineTherapy.com
Show Notes:
Intro:
Interview:
Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:06
Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie we are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:18
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal
Anne Sherry 0:27
latchkey ergens are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:43
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:49
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about
Alison Cebulla 0:53
sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:03
Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met and we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:11
So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend you are
Alison Cebulla 1:15
wanted here
Anne Sherry 1:26
Hey, hi, Alison. Oh, I sound nasally I got a little bit of cold. I do not have a whole not have COVID I carry around COVID tests and sign a first sniffle citizen Yes. And a thermometer. So yes, everybody has it right now it's surging again.
Alison Cebulla 1:47
It seems it is surging again. Yeah. I've been noticing signs everywhere. You know where? Yeah, a mask. I know. I don't want to take mine out. wherever they are. The mask graveyard. Yeah, I want to be a responsible citizen. Yes.
Anne Sherry 2:01
I think my masks are like cut up and in my art pieces now. So I know. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get back together. I was trying to be like, Okay, I'm gonna do a retrospective of masks. And yeah, I need to. Um, here we are that Amazon. Amazon order going again. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 2:23
So today we have Jamie marriage, who? I love the title of her book dissociation made simple. So what does that sound like? What is why does that sound so fun? What is that supposed to think people? It's like,
Anne Sherry 2:36
a cookbook or something? Yeah. You know, like, dissociation and three. Yeah, dissociation? Or, you know, because it's a scary term people don't like to. I don't know, I think we're all doing it. Many of us are doing it much of the time I find myself kind of I was listening to Gabbo. Monty's book myth of normal and he was on he was going on about you know, ADHD and ADD and just how, how much that that is a dissociative disorder you kind of check it out spacing out often are just nine present moment. I was like, oh my god, I dissociate a fair amount. And so I've been curious about that.
Alison Cebulla 3:22
We're on it. You're on like a dissociated rant stream of consciousness today over
Anne Sherry 3:28
my texts. Yeah, I just let a part take over. And I'm just like, sick of it. And it's fine. Sick of everything. And I think I'm kind of sick. Think what the whole thing was, like, a little sick. Take some time. Take care of yourself. But I have learned to just be like, Okay, I'm just gonna make it about the world. When I could just have sock and chicken soup. Everyone to blame everybody down furnace. Yes, we will not be including the screenshots of Alison eyes text. In the shownotes. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 4:03
We will not be posting those today. For your for.
Anne Sherry 4:08
For Yes. For the sake of people that listen to this show. They'd be like, Oh, is she not in prison?
Alison Cebulla 4:16
Yeah, you're allowed to have I have my whole 2022 was like that and you held space. So much.
Anne Sherry 4:22
Okay. So okay, so now turning 23 years my year. Finally not be the good kid. So, yeah. Lots of insurance by
Alison Cebulla 4:37
being present, you know, which is sort of the opposite of dissociating, which I love that she's kind of like, it's totally cool to dissociate, which I felt like was like a really nurturing like permission. I'm like, thank you. I will. Yeah, we'll enjoy that. Thank you. It
Anne Sherry 4:54
kept us safe. For lots.
Alison Cebulla 4:56
It kept us safe, but like it still does keep us safe. Yep. Um, during hard moments to just be like, none of this is real, you know? By. Yes. Um, but being present, I think it's been interesting because before the pandemic started, which was three, oh my god years ago what? Okay, um, but I was like, at the top of my game, I was like meditating healing trauma. I was doing these, like, February of 2020. I was doing these, like, deep meditations, where I was like, tapping into deep trauma and doing like, deep healing, like it was transformative. Yes, meditating yoga, right? Like, I've never been more fit. I was like writing my best. And then the pandemic hit. And it was like, dissociation became a really great survival tool. Yeah. And we needed it. All of us. Yes. Like, we needed to just check out and pretend like a million effing people that didn't just die. Hello? Yep, totally way more trauma that we can
Anne Sherry 6:04
dissociate to like CNN and TV and just the deaths. I'm like, what's happening? Why am I doing this? You know,
Alison Cebulla 6:13
because it was it's, it was way too much way too horrific. And then the world asked us to just go on with our capitalist dystopian lives as per usual, despite the fact that all these people just died. I mean, I lost three people, my grandma and then my ex boyfriend and then my really good friend, Sarah, who's one of my best best best friends from grad school all in like a few months which I know the stress the pandemic impacted that and unlike almost everyone else I know also lost like three people you don't I mean, like it's like the death tolls are insane Yeah. And they're like oh about like, please keep track of your billable hours. It's like I literally can't Yeah,
Anne Sherry 6:53
yeah. Yeah, I think I have to wonder I don't know we may see this but like I as a what happened gosh, we're going into a COVID talk here but it does relate to Jamie's book for sure. Because I'm like oh, that's how we made it you know, we just we just went had a kid that we had to figure out how to you know get into school and we just next day after everything shut down. Tom nice clients are online so we're just in full time mode of trying to support people people are like, oh, you know what, it how do I deal with this? I was like, I don't know. But we'll just do therapy. I guess we'll just keep doing that. My mom came to live with us and she had just had surgery and I was like a full time elder care person at that point to just that whole childhood just handle came to live in us for three months. What
Alison Cebulla 7:48
April May was before you and I started hanging out again online Yeah, cuz I was just
Anne Sherry 7:53
eating potato chips. It was it. The crunch kept me in the present moment. The crunch of the potato chips and now realize that's how I stayed in the present moment.
Alison Cebulla 8:02
That's fucking genius was I was like, why? Yeah, that's sensory perception.
Anne Sherry 8:06
So many bags of potato because I'm not a potato chip person. But that is all I wanted. I'll get you
Alison Cebulla 8:12
needed. Okay, but also for me, because due to the sensory overload, I love sea salt and vinegar chips where the vinegar is like, oh, it just you know, like just rivulets of Oh, yeah. It just brings you right into the present moment. You can't avoid the present moment when you're using vinegar cups.
Anne Sherry 8:29
Yeah, so that's probably Yeah, yeah. So
Alison Cebulla 8:34
um, but so when the can spirituality podcast dropped into my life? I think mid 2021 Does that make sense? Or 2020? I don't know. I can't remember who but I'm
Anne Sherry 8:48
insist on listening to it when I like made me sad person.
Alison Cebulla 8:52
But then I realized like so many people in the wellness and yoga world were batshit crazy.
Anne Sherry 9:00
We got into a polarization is it a call? Yeah. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 9:05
Yeah, I wasn't really I was adjacent to it. Yeah. Yeah. Like at least three colts and oh, and so I was like, Okay, I need to like step back. And I just haven't been feeling motivated to meditate since severing my ties with a new age brain fucking that I was like a part right. So now I'm like, What is my like, What is my relationship with being present now that I know that it could make me want to join a cult?
Anne Sherry 9:38
Um, what do you say? I was about to answer that I was like I don't know you should see my I don't want to show you how my 30 days with insight timers going? It looks like it's
Alison Cebulla 9:52
which I love Insight Timer. Yeah, I love that out but a little bit culty Am I wrong? A little bit.
Anne Sherry 9:57
You sit is okay. Oh, that, you know, I mean present. Yeah, that's what
Alison Cebulla 10:02
I've seen is like how, like how do you get present without joining? Cool? That's all I'm trying to say
Anne Sherry 10:10
that later anybody, anybody want to come on and
Alison Cebulla 10:14
send us an email? latchkey? Yes. Urgent. yeah@gmail.com. Yeah. And tell us how to get pregnant without joining a cold.
Anne Sherry 10:21
I'm pretty much sure you got to like feel your body and feel your own emotions and stuff and know what's yours and what's not yours. Yuck. Ish? I don't know. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 10:31
I don't know. But anyway, enjoy our interview. She's
Anne Sherry 10:35
awesome. Yes, I'm going to do EMDR training with her.
Alison Cebulla 10:40
You're all you're jumping in? That's what that's great. Yeah, I'm just gonna do it. Enneagram setup. We do it on good. And then we quit it on and
Anne Sherry 10:49
then we criticize her. Oh.
Alison Cebulla 10:54
One thing I love about this interview is the like the the deep dive on to the term urgent.
Anne Sherry 10:59
Which Oh, so needed. It was yes. Yeah. She did a great job. Yeah, she Yeah, she embodied it. She was like, I know this. And I was like, you're an urgent sister. For sure.
Alison Cebulla 11:12
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So yeah, this is a good one. It's Jamie marriage.
We are here today with Jamie marriage. Welcome, Jamie.
Jamie Marich 11:42
Thank you. So glad to be here. I'm saying it right. Yeah, marriage is how we say it in English. So okay, that's great. Yep. Where is your name from? It's Croatian, it would be much in Croatian pronunciations a little difficult for English speakers. So marriage is what I go with in English.
Alison Cebulla 12:00
Okay. And so
Anne Sherry 12:01
gosh, Croatia was somewhere I wanted to go. So but it's
Jamie Marich 12:05
another one get a chance to get a chance to do it.
Anne Sherry 12:07
Yes, yes. Absolutely.
Alison Cebulla 12:09
So, Jamie, I met a couple. It's been a couple years now.
Jamie Marich 12:16
Probably going on three years ago. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 12:19
Yeah, I can't. I actually can't believe it.
Jamie Marich 12:24
Like, a lot of world has happened in three years. Oh, my
Alison Cebulla 12:27
gosh, yes. And so Jamie wrote a wonderful book trauma and the 12 steps. And I got to interview Jamie about that book in 2024. My job at haces connection. I used to host a show called a better normal. And I devoured that book. It was so good. You remember I like notated all of that. I had sticky notes on every page. I just loved everything you said.
Jamie Marich 12:53
That's what an author loves to hear and see what their book. Yes.
Anne Sherry 12:57
There were just an Allison is extremely discerning. So when it comes from Allison it, it really does mean something
Alison Cebulla 13:04
I went into that book with with skepticism because I am a former methamphetamine addict. And and so and I went through na and I loved so much of it the community, the ritual, and I've also loved Alan on and I just bought there were so many things that didn't
Anne Sherry 13:24
work. Sure.
Alison Cebulla 13:25
And I'm in that boat too. Yes, exactly. And so when I read your book, I was like, This is what's needed.
Jamie Marich 13:34
I appreciate you very much for that. missing that.
Alison Cebulla 13:38
So Dr. Jamie marriage, describes herself as a facilitator of transformative experiences. A clinical trauma specialist, expressive artists, writer, yogini performer, short filmmaker, reiki master TEDx speaker, and recovery advocate, she unites all of these elements in her mission to inspire healing in others. And so we are here to interview her about her new book. Jamie, tell us a little bit about your new book. tell our listeners
Jamie Marich 14:10
Yeah, so the new book is called dissociation Made Simple, a stigma free guide to embracing your dissociative mind and navigating life. And since you gave such a beautiful shout out to Tom on the 12 steps, I will say it's a really nice companion piece to that book. Because dissociation is a very misunderstood concept. A lot of people will use it very casually or they will associate it automatically with dissociative identity disorder, which we formerly have so many of the hangups from the old school, multiple personality disorder diagnosis, and I go into all of this in the book, but the reality is, we all dissociate as human beings. And addiction can be viewed as a manifestation of dissociation. In fact, in the new book, which is written more even more for a general public audience. Like if you're a therapist, we hope you do the work for yourself first if you're picking up this book, but a colleague of mine and I have been working on a model called the addiction as dissociation model, which is really about viewing addiction as dissociations next progressive step, especially when you're a child who has grown up, emotionally abandoned, emotionally traumatized. It becomes normal for us to dissociate. And then once chemicals or some other reinforcing behavior enters the picture, it makes it easier, quicker, more instant for us to go there. So I would say if you'd like to, I'm in the tall steps or whether you're reading my work for the first time. I hope there's something for you in this book.
Alison Cebulla 15:45
I am I am so excited to read your bio. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yes. Jamie? Honestly, when I saw that you because because I since since I met you, like three years ago, I've been following your work. And also I love North Atlantic books. Oh, yeah. Tim is like, what are the best? Whatever? Yeah. And they're just the best. Yeah. And so when I saw that you had this book coming out, and I saw that it was about dissociation. I just thought, This is what we need. Like, how'd you know? Like, like, you're like you said, it's become such a word and popular culture, which I think is a good thing. I think I do, too. Yeah. What are you noticing? Like, did you you kind of mentioned, you're like, yeah, it's been coming up a lot. And I need to write the book. Was there were there certain things you were seeing where you're like, I need to clarify?
Jamie Marich 16:34
Yes. It's funny, because in thinking of the pandemic, I saw this amazing meme that was out there, at the beginning of the pandemic, it said, some of you lack the dissociative skills to survive the apocalypse, and it shows.
Anne Sherry 16:54
Yeah, and
Jamie Marich 16:54
even at the time, my business manager was like you were made for this. And, and that's the interesting thing, like at the beginning of the pandemic, I was, there was a lot of ways I thrived during it. And I think it was because of my dissociative skills I've learned to leverage positively. I will say, another kind of turning point moment is I've seen more interesting attempts in media in popular culture and TV. I'm an avid watcher of TV and movies to really portray dissociation and they almost get it right. And then there's something that's just like, this needs to be clarified. Like there was a TV show called The affair that I loved. It was on Showtime. It was out? Oh, I know. Yeah, you know, a few years ago now. And the main character was just such a prime example of trauma based dissociation. And then she actually had EMDR therapy in one of these episodes, and it was so poorly done, and it was so and I remember writing a blog about it at the time. And yes, in the book, we go into where media has done more harm than good to promote a lot of how dissociation is portrayed yet once I really kind of break down what dissociation really is for people. There's this immediate sense of like, yeah, that's, that's always been a part of my life. It's not just these quote, unquote, extreme examples of it that media tends to emphasize.
Alison Cebulla 18:16
Right, because media can sensationalize it, like and make it seem harmful and scary in order to maybe like captivate the viewer. Yes, my interpretation. Yeah.
Jamie Marich 18:28
And that's the general feeling a lot of us with dissociative disorders have. And Jamie Pollack, who is the founder of an amazing organization called an infinite mind. She's a woman with di D herself, who was really looking to create an organization which she did about 1213 years ago that brings together professionals and the community and it's just one of my favorite things to support. Long story. Just to say in her interview for the book, she said, people would be surprised to learn how routine my life is, especially in a state of when things start to get healed and get addressed. Yet a lot of this dissociative structure, dissociative identities can remain. It's it's not always the drama and the switching and the and it's not to say that people who experience that are giving us a bad name, because everybody's experience is different. But it is just so interesting that media automatically goes to the most sensational entertaining aspects of any disorder
Alison Cebulla 19:28
entertainment,
Jamie Marich 19:29
I guess I'll say but the addiction to I could argue that a lot of portrayals of addiction are just off kilter.
Alison Cebulla 19:36
Absolutely. Totally. Yeah. You know, when I emailed you my questions, I kind of brought up my ex partner, Kevin, who we did a whole episode on, on losing him in January, which is a really devastating loss, but um, I was I was I'm hoping that your book will help me get some clarity on kind of maybe what he was experiencing, but he is Someone that I loved very much and had so many gifts and amazing qualities like I just miss him so much. But he also struggled with. I don't know enough about it. So I'm kind of curious, you know, to learn more, but he did have these like different persona personas, I think that maybe didn't weren't integrated, you know, and, and then struggled with substance misuse. And, and for him, it, he really had a lot of trauma, he had nine out of 10 Aces. And I really saw it as these kind of like different pieces of him that had to adapt to stressful situations differently. And so then if he kind of got triggered in a certain way, then I'd see a different one of those different parts come out. And I'm just curious, like, am am I interpreting that correctly or incorrectly?
Jamie Marich 20:50
Or I think it's a way to look at it. I mean, the word integration can be a fascinating point of discussion, because a lot of people with dissociative identities don't like that word in that we've been told by therapists. Well, you have to integrate in order to be well and functional in the world. And what we've seen now is to look at it more as cooperation, cohesion, how can we get whatever word you're using different personas, different parts, different aspects? How can we get them to realize and regard each other and communicate in a way because yes, a lot of people with addiction, really identify a part that is very aligned with the addiction, and it's usually protective. Right? One of the summary points I make about dissociation is that parts usually form to either protect the self, or to meet a need. And for any of us who struggled with addiction, think about those earliest times, we've learned that severing or separating from ourselves in some way helped us to meet a need. And then a lot of those parts found chemicals to help us go there quicker. And so I mean, for and for people where this is like, oh, and I never thought of it this way. How many of you who have struggled with addiction have used the Jekyll and Hyde metaphor that there's this part of me, right, that really wants to get well, there's this part of me that, you know, screw it, I'm just going to keep doing because I know this works. And what I try to do with so many folks is can you get the two to communicate with each other? Because that's really, I've done it's simplifying it in a lot of ways yet, that's, that's the key for for healing.
Alison Cebulla 22:24
Well, let me let me tell you, Oh, go for an oh,
Anne Sherry 22:28
just in a little bit in that, like, what I find I struggle with are lots of is that, that just intense criticism that lives in which, you know, so in that I would love hearing you. What I think I'm hearing you say is, gosh, how can we make space for whoever whatever, whoever is showing up and not say, you know, because I will experience like, my hateful parts out I gotta, like pretend like I'm nice or or find way I drive around in my car just fucking blowing steam and everybody like Ramadan's vivo, but it's like, it's just about this, like, I gotta get this under control. I gotta and, and it's this kind of, it's just this tug of war inside all the time, or often have like, this is the bad ones. I'm not doing enough therapy, I'm not doing enough yoga, I'm not and I'm trying to, like, settle it down. So and so it's, you know, and I know you all that, not in this and and I know you'd like
Jamie Marich 23:25
to right? We were talking about that before the formal interview. And yes, I'm back
Anne Sherry 23:29
on my morning pages. Great.
Jamie Marich 23:31
So a very, very simple exercise. Now, it might not be easy, but it's certainly simple, is to invite those different parts you just identified into conversation with each other on the page, as if you're writing a scene, like, like the anxious part talking to
Anne Sherry 23:48
the one that's writing right now, and not letting anybody else right.
Jamie Marich 23:52
And negatives is this is one of my favorite strategies for getting my people to really communicate with each other because I do love to write, but you can, if you're not a writer, you can also do it where you like, take your two hands, put them out in front of you. This represents what one part is saying this represents this hand what another part is saying, and just kind of wavering back and forth like a balance and let the words come out. If you need to verbalize words from the perspective of these different parts and and see what's revealed be be open to the process.
Alison Cebulla 24:27
Not feel sad or ashamed of it. Yeah, really quick. I know I'm gonna hear this from certain people. They're gonna be like you did this whole episode and you just didn't define it for me. Yeah, can you please tell our guests What the heck is DeSoto? Happy to
Jamie Marich 24:41
happy to. So it's confusing because it is a lot of things. But if we're really trying to keep it simple, and for me, the best way to keep things simple is let's look at where we even get the word. So dissociation comes from a Latin root, that means to sever or to separate. Mm. So I think that's the the easiest made simple definition I can give you is to sever or to separate. So what is it we're severing or separating from? It's typically one of two things the present moment. Because the present moment is unpleasant, overwhelming, boring, painful. And so it can be something like daydreaming, zoning out going into your own private world in your head. And I think that's something just about every human being is experienced, as what we might see as a rather innocuous dissociation. What's fast, and then the other thing we can sever separate from our the parts and aspects of ourselves, we can develop these parts to help us meet needs to protect ourselves. And that's the way I tend to look at it, there's some schools of thought that that would suggest we're born with all these dissociated parts. And that's how we get our needs met as infants. And then, with time and healthy development, they become more cohesive. However, however they form, I think the key is there, they're meeting a need, or helping to protect. And for kids who grow up, which I know is your focus with with tremendous abuse or neglect, it can become a lot easier to go into these worlds. So I remember something my first 12 Step sponsor, it was very trauma informed subdomain, this just ah, like, I get chills, even when I tell the story, because she got this. So Right. She said, as a kid, you lived in your imagination a lot. And that kept you safe, that kept you sane, always escaping reality, she said, But at a certain point, as you progress to adulthood, it backfired on you in a lot of ways. Because, as an adult, I had a hard time kind of living in the reality around me, doing the things that grown ups had to do our learn to take care of myself, and, and I've learned now in my healing and growth, it's not all or nothing, I could still have an active imagination. I'm a very creative person. But it's knowing kind of how to walk that line between living and fantasy living in the reality that I'm being asked to live in. And I'm just so grateful that she helped normalize that, but then helped to challenge it, where I was able to really kind of address the ways it was causing me problems.
Alison Cebulla 27:21
Yeah, for our listeners who are curious to learn more about this, because people will have different levels of understanding, what are some of the ways that dissociation can be harmful?
Jamie Marich 27:32
Yeah, it can be harmful in a lot of ways, especially like you mentioned with your partner, when there's just not cohesion or connection between the parts that might develop one part or several parts can really act out in a way that can cause distress for the entire system or whole collection of parts. And ultimately, the person that presents in the world, like when people get into legal trouble, we can get into this discussion was was that really the person doing it? Or was it this part that was trying to get some need met, and ultimately, it caused consequences for everyone else. So you hear the kind of prototypical association that one of the parts will go up and run up a credit card, one of the practice will go out and get high and get addicted to the parts can be really aligned with self injury. So I think these extremes that even I'm talking about tend to happen when there's there's not a cohesion or connection. And everybody's kind of on board. And people with dissociative systems often keep very active parts, like I have four parts in my system. But through the exercises like writing and our therapy, we learned to kind of check in with each other. And one of the most harmful things that can happen is when a therapist, if his therapist do this, a lot will tell a client, it will just don't listen to that part. Right? And it's like how do you feel when you're ignored? How do you feel when you're shut off or shut down? So I think we have to approach it as all of these parts or aspects ourselves have something valuable to say if we'll just listen to them. So to cite the wisdom of Debbie Koren has a therapeutic mentor of mine, and she's an interviewee for the book. She says, as therapists when we're working with people who have like very defined dissociative systems, we're doing family therapy with all of them, and it's one person, but to step back, because you're asking a great question, even for people who don't have such fragmented systems, like I'm talking about dissociation could be harmful if, like you're so checked out, and then you get in your car to drive. Similar to being so drunk, you can't stay present to drive so it'll finance a lot of like, I have clients and I do this myself where we have to kind of do an inventory about safety measures for getting in a car. And for a lot of us, it's just keeping on good music that It is grounding and alerting. And, and you can just help us really stay awake. While while we drive, you know, it can be harmful if you're caring for children.
Anne Sherry 30:14
I mean, being in the present moment is excruciating. Oh, yes. You know, yeah, it's awful. You know, I'm so I'm curious, you know, this, like, the mindfulness Jamie, we're talking about the EMDR trainings and how the mindfulness based and, and so with people, you know, people are like, just do sitting meditation or do quiet yoga or whatever you know, and that starting, there may not be the best. Oh, so let's go there. You need to do trauma informed? Yeah.
Jamie Marich 30:42
So speaking of definitions, one of the ways dissociation has been defined as as the opposite of mindfulness is that if mindfulness is about being in the present moment without judgment, dissociation is like a fear of mindfulness. And sometimes I don't like the black and white of that distinction, because a lot of people with dissociative systems will talk about, well, one part can be mindful and present. And another part can be out there. And yeah, so we're often having like, I think I mentioned this earlier in the interview toe the line, like one foot in the present, one foot is somewhere else. But I will say yes, when we're going to teach mindfulness skills, and hopefully this insight is is useful, whether you're a therapist, a yoga teacher, or a person trying to develop a mindfulness practice, that oftentimes we hear well, yeah, just sit and be and follow your thoughts. And if they drift away, then come back to the present moment. And that's not often the best place for people to start. Like, I think things like walking, meditation, taking walks with more mindful intention, and you can help a person understand that I do a practice called Dancing Mindfulness, where we use dance and music as a way to because I think teaching mindfulness skills is important. And through doing these more kind of body active approaches to mindfulness is where then I was able to sit and be still and and appreciate that that's still reset. So yeah, there's a lot of different ways to get there.
Alison Cebulla 32:06
But don't have you seen Jamie kind of like a, it's almost like a because some of the mindfulness stuff is rooted like in in Eastern, obviously, Western spirituality has it too, but almost like a spiritual bypassing with mindfulness, a lot of mindfulness folks, I yeah, I taught meditation for years, I was not healing my shit. Well,
Jamie Marich 32:25
I, the whole term spiritual bypass was coined by a Buddhist teacher, John, well, well, who, who noticed that is done? Well, yes. who noticed that especially in Buddhist meditation communities, that if I just meditate enough, or if I just practice these asanas enough, like in yoga, sense that yes, a lot of spiritual bypass can happen. And I think where I've really come in my spirituality is the spiritual practices can be there to support you, as you work on your stuff. I'm also thinking of my first sponsor, again, you know, she taught me so much Christian woman, Christian Catholic woman, that that was her spiritual base. And we were working together in an environment where there was a lot of this, if I just pray hard enough, then all of this will, will go and from from a very spiritual place. She says, Jamie, I believe Jesus can heal you. But I also believe Jesus wants you to work on your shit. which so many of these people are not doing? And I'm like, yes, yes.
Alison Cebulla 33:26
Yes.
Anne Sherry 33:30
I mean, because then people will come to the therapy world and not have any association with some level of spirituality piece. I think there's got to be some
Alison Cebulla 33:39
spiritual it has to be bigger. Yeah, it does. You have to feel like there's something greater than yourself. Because otherwise I just feel like, Oh, you don't have to, but this is my personal belief that it just feels that
Anne Sherry 33:50
I'm nature connection.
Jamie Marich 33:51
I mean, there's so many we're there. Because I think yeah, that's the key, like, whether it's higher power, inner power connection. So many contributors to dissociation made simple. The folks I interviewed talked about nature as giving them that connection, without having any kind of spiritual or religious belief. And there's just so many beautiful stories shared. connecting with others, Mary Oliver
Anne Sherry 34:14
is like, oh, yeah, she is the nature she I love her description of her childhood. Who was insufficient. And she has. But I mean, she can like yeah, like, show you the way for sure. If, um, and so we, you know, well, so I know we're a little bit on a roll, but we forgot.
Alison Cebulla 34:39
We just Oh, excited to hear about dissociate. Yes. Let's Yes, yes. Take take us off here.
Anne Sherry 34:46
Okay, well, you were what was the were you a latchkey kid or urgent, which is sort of
Alison Cebulla 34:56
urgent and, yeah, go ahead.
Jamie Marich 34:58
Tell me your definition.
Anne Sherry 35:00
My part can't do it
Alison Cebulla 35:01
yeah the definition so latchkey we kind of defined like physically neglected you know left to roam and urgent we just we described as sort of emotionally neglected, maybe your parents were around but maybe they were, you know, giving you everything you needed. So you developed kind of some some street kid tendency, you know, or and or some spiny, prickly or chimney like, don't I hear me
Jamie Marich 35:25
I love that word or two and that's just such a great word. And
Anne Sherry 35:28
even when I really, really can't came from was I remember my mother saying to me, just this dirty little kid, like, I don't think you could get me in the bath. Perhaps but she was like you, you just stuck with me. She's like, you look like an urchin. And I can. I don't know if I'm back doing this. But I'm like, lady, you're in charge. So yeah. You know, why am I holding the responsibility for my urgent.
Jamie Marich 35:59
I'm making so many urgent I'm making. So make I'm making so many connections here. So a little bit of my back's backstory around all that. So to be clear, I grew up comfortably middle class, my mom was an educational administrator. My father worked at the local General Motors plant, you know, I basically had what I needed growing up yet a fascinating part of the upbringing. I was mentioning this I think, before the interview is, there was a lot of religious discord in my house, because my mom is Catholic and stayed Catholic. And my dad left the Catholic Church and I was young to join, like a very pretty extreme evangelical group. And so there was a lot of discord. And what was interesting was, you know, my mom worked day turn, my dad worked night turn. And they often joked, like, well, this is how our marriage works, because we don't see each other that much. And there was always this overlap period of about an hour where like, dad went to work, or wait, nope, we dad went to work while we were waiting for mom to come home. And I remember it happened at a time where my brother and I were at funny ages, where they tried leaving me alone with my brother for that hour, but then it wasn't quite working. And so my grandfather would come over, but then he often wasn't the most attentive caregiver. And at one point, she had like an older cousin come over to watch us. So there Yeah, there was just a lot of it. And I'm starting to explore this more. And again, in my next writing, I'm gonna get a little more transparent about what it was to kind of grow up in such a divided house. And so yeah, I certainly had that experience and talking about like, you know, you look like an urgent. Yeah, I mean, I felt like I did a lot of physical neglecting of myself. Interesting. And I was a bullied kid, I was overweight. That was a lot of my, my struggle. And that was always a factor of conversation in the house. And so, yeah, I definitely identify with the urge and part of this conversation. And I'm going to continue to explore this more because I will say as it relates to dissociation, I dissociated a hell of a lot as a kid that there was something that was not comfortable about the upbringing, even though as I said, I had everything I needed most of what I wanted. Here's a connection I made. It was ultimately a house where I did not feel safe to be myself. Totally, especially, you know, by the time I was 910 11, I realized that I'm bisexual. I have multiple attractions. I, I already had these feminist tendencies brewing and developing and here I was in this very religious house.
Yeah. Oh. So put some
Anne Sherry 38:49
stuff away. Yeah.
Jamie Marich 38:49
So yeah, it was certainly a place where I was not safe to be myself. And when you're a kid, this might be controversial, but I feel I could go here on the show. By the nature of being by the nature of being a child, you're trapped.
Alison Cebulla 39:06
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 100% 100% And you throw religion especially. Oh, yeah. Hum. Or fundamentalism into the mix. For Ghana? Yeah.
Anne Sherry 39:18
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, like parents holding that they don't realize the power they hold and integrity they need and you also do need to be shaped and you know, because we have no rules and a lot of way it was like, come home or don't I used to make up in high school, like, I'm gonna get in so much trouble if I don't get home on time, blah, blah. They didn't give a shit. And Tom, you know, because I wanted to be seen as somebody who was cared for him, you know, but yeah, obviously you want to so you want some of that structure, but also, like you, you, you really do have to watch it because you throw around that power you have, you know, with I don't know you have a bad day or something,
Alison Cebulla 39:57
right. I often say that rather a power illiterate society. And I see this play out in childhood homes, and especially now in the workplace, where people who have power and sort of get get up that ladder are not seeing and acknowledging their power. Because when did we ever talk about it? When did that? When did power ever come up ever? In my entire life? Yeah. Literally never. It's like, I've had to seek that out to understand how power dynamics work, but with children and parents, it's not. This isn't an equal power relationship you're creating.
Anne Sherry 40:34
Yeah, yeah. So yeah. And August, is it I have a 10 year old Jamie that I had later in life. And he's, I'm happy that it happened later in life. Because see, we do pretty well with that. I mean, he's able to definitely let me know. And I'm like, You know what, you're absolutely right. He pushes back using my power correctly. Yes. I'm like, This is amazing. And it's infuriating, because I didn't get to use my power in those ways. Right, whatever. So anyways, you got to hold both. And once you're an adult, so but yeah, I can feel wanting to check out as a parent for sure. Often, you know, especially when a kid's need start coming. Like I like how do I put him through school? How do I hold him accountable? And I'm like, I don't know nobody did for us. So it's a little struggle. So if you're struggling as parents, it's normal. Just keep doing your work. What's the book? Daniel Siegel? Is it Parenting from the inside out? Inside Out is a really good one because it basically says look at your stuff whenever you're getting triggered. That's
Alison Cebulla 41:41
such a good segue. Oh, because oh, oh, childhood foods that you have to ask you are
Anne Sherry 41:49
latchkey what would you make? One day? What?
Alison Cebulla 41:53
A great question. When you when it was just you? What kind of food would you?
Anne Sherry 41:58
Yeah, oh,
Jamie Marich 42:00
wow, you're going deep with me or the Barbara Walters.
Alison Cebulla 42:07
She would just get in there and turn the knife.
Jamie Marich 42:11
What I will disclose because I've shared this in some of my writing. I learned emotional eating very quickly. As a young kid as and I know the answer a lot of my weight struggle started. But true story. And if my mom's listening, I don't know if she knows this, but I'll tell it now. So she used it. She was a great power sales shopper all this and she would get these Duncan Hines cake MC boxes and just like have them in our pantry. So if I took one, no one really knew they were missing. So I loved eating raw cake mix. I would have it in my room. I wouldn't hide it.
Alison Cebulla 42:45
Yeah, not to say that actually.
Anne Sherry 42:49
I'm actually remembering that
Jamie Marich 42:52
raw chocolate packets, like the pure chocolate sugar flour, like just inject it, you know. So that was kind of like my comfort eating. You know, I obviously learned how to put like obsessive amounts of cheese on bread together very quickly, which which was another comforting food, don't do that. But I will say, you know, in credit to my mother and my grandmother. I mean, they were her mom. They were they're both excellent cooks. And so I did learn some really good, wholesome cooking strategies as well as a young kid. And probably when I started to be about 1011 in that period of law we had I would often start dinner. And sometimes they were like really good dinners. And other times mom would be like, we have to work on this because you're just kind of thrown together everything from the freezer. And I don't know, this meat really goes on that kind of stuff. But yeah, yeah. So that's a good question. Thanks.
Alison Cebulla 43:44
Yeah, yeah. That's that is great. And those are those are our latch key. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So and I guess like I have one follow up question. Sure. I'd love to deep dive about like, emotional home environments. How are emotions dealt with at home?
Anne Sherry 44:05
Really weren't there we go. There's a short answer. Yeah,
Jamie Marich 44:14
yeah, there was a lot of this just feeling of well don't Okay, I do have a story I can tell you like just definitely don't have them and you'll you'll keep the boat from rocking. But I remember I was six I was six years old, maybe five, five or six years old when the Sesame Street movie follow that bird came out. It's still one of my favorite movies. I love Big Bird. And in this movie, it's on HBO max if you haven't seen it, you haven't seen it. It was just everything about my emotional life presented in this movie and I cried and I cried and I cried when we watched it. I remember my parents I still see this look on their face. them kind of looking at each other like what is up with her? Oh, like what is This that we have to deal with. Yeah, because I'm a crier. I mean, movies make me cry very easily. And I'm not ashamed of that today. And I think so many people in society and especially so many of the parents systems were born into just don't get it.
Alison Cebulla 45:16
Don't get it. Do you?
Jamie Marich 45:17
Don't know how to deal with it or don't want to deal with it.
Anne Sherry 45:21
Yeah, but you're you're you're crying, being able to be in good relationship with crying now, that came through work. Because it sounds like there's a lot of shame that we get from having feelings at all. I remember watching the day after, do you remember? Like, yeah, that was, I was so fucking freaked out. By that I was watching it with my parents. I was probably 11, maybe 1011. And I will, yeah, I had to run away. And then I came back, I composed myself and came back. And I was like, Okay, if you know, nuclear wipes out the world, that's fine.
Jamie Marich 45:57
Because I always say, like, growing up, I was very grateful to have one grandparent, this was my dad's mom who lived out of town. So I didn't see her a lot. But when I saw her, it was very meaningful, very impactful. And she would always comment on how she cried very easily to and she you have that? Oh, yeah. And she called herself a chicken heart because your chicken heart like me, but men it very affectionately, it was not an insult. Yeah. And I actually did have a grandfather, and this was my mom's dad who lived very close to us. As he got older, he would cry very easily. He just was very overcome with nostalgia about it. So yeah, he had a very tough streak, to be clear, but he would have these moments of just tenderness that I was able to see. And when his wife died when I was 16. Like he was not afraid to show tear. So when I look at that kind of how tears were normalized in a way that made me feel not totally freakish. I look to my grandmother on the one side, my grandfather on the other. So that that I think was a life raft for me. But it wasn't really until I started getting in recovery in earnest, or that first sponsor I've talked about so much. Just validated the importance of you feel what you feel you don't have to explain it. Oh,
Alison Cebulla 47:11
wow. Well, so yeah, we'll just we'll start to wrap up here. And then we'll do the feelings. We ALL Yay.
Anne Sherry 47:22
Talking about emotion,
Alison Cebulla 47:24
or practically each day, so yeah, yeah, maybe you could share a little bit about what started your healing journey. Or if you look at it that way, and what other people can start to think about as they are trying to find a therapist who understands trauma and dissociation.
Jamie Marich 47:49
Well, when I look at my own journey, it started at the campus Counseling Center, when I was an undergrad, it was not perfect trauma informed therapy. But it's what I was able to receive at the time and what was available and felt safe to access at the time. And it was another life raft. My healing journey began in earnest when I decided to move to Europe. And it was kind of a geographical desperation cure at the time, but I needed to do it. Like I am one of those who needed to get away from a lot of the toxic influences around me. And that's where I met Janet, who I've talked about several times on the podcast now, and she not only introduced 12 Step Recovery to me, but I like to say she was trauma informed before it was cool. Before we were talking about it so much. Because she was not only the first person to validate that, yes, I had addiction struggles, but so much of here's another tie in to the the urgent hood of it all at that time. So I was like 21 years old. Any connection to trauma I had was associated to the PTSD diagnosis. And that was something war veterans had, specifically Vietnam veterans. That was the only association I had. And she was with me during a very traumatic meltdown that I had, I won't get into the whole context of it. And I remember one of my bosses was kind of like, Janet, what is this? And then she's like, this is a traumatic reaction. Let me handle it. And she did. And as she was comforting me, she didn't try to talk rational at first. It was literally she took me home, put a cold washcloth on my head, helped me cry it out. And that's when she started talking to me about trauma and asking me appropriate questions to try to see what this meltdown was really about. And I said, you know, Jana, it's unfair to say that I have trauma because look at where we're working at in a post war zone and Bosnian people like there's this idea of real trauma that was so going through my head, and she said, Jamie, maybe the warzone was your house. Maybe Skid Row was your bedroom. And Woo's that when it connected for me because I talked about how my house was just so defined by discord especially religious discord. I did grow up in a warzone. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. That's where my healing really. And it's been a steady progressive pattern of 20 plus years of ups and downs. healings never linear.
Alison Cebulla 50:20
Yeah, starting in college. I was blessed. Yeah,
Jamie Marich 50:25
I was blessed. Yeah, I it's not lost on me. Somebody said once, if you get sober young, you'll have a very beautiful life ahead of you. And I'm very glad that was my story.
Alison Cebulla 50:36
Yeah, yeah, that's fine, too. I felt really grateful that I got into recovery early as well. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 50:43
I was your first recovery. Yes. Yay.
Alison Cebulla 50:45
Yes. Right after, right after we have I moved in with my mom. And she was like, I'm gonna be a drug therapist. And I was like, yeah, it was it was just
Anne Sherry 50:55
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so how can someone find like Jamie one? Just one little bit on that? I love that story so much, but it really is believe yourself. Yeah, I like that phrase. Your emotions believe what's happening. Oh, yeah. No, like it's so because then there's like, No, this isn't really then we're constantly questioning ourselves because we're tuning to what it should look like or I didn't get the right trauma so I can we gaslight ourselves like you. Yeah, so and yeah, I still struggle with that, believing it. I'm like, Wait, I've been doing therapy since I was 24. Why am I not better? So or?
Alison Cebulla 51:33
Yeah, so and what can people do to to make sure they find the right therapist who understands all this stuff because not all therapists are trauma informed or Norda that you they understand association or you
Jamie Marich 51:45
have every right to quote unquote, shop around date your therapist, is unfortunately can feel like dating. But you know, kind of in this whole online dating thing, look at websites first. And oftentimes people are unfortunately in this country are limited by what their insurance will cover or what they can access. It's just but wherever so so with that big qualification I will say wherever possible, look at websites and kind of gauge the vibe generally, a therapist who presents themselves as to cognitive behavioral is usually in my opinion, not a great fit. I think CBT has a place but it's it's not the most trauma informed modality mentally and emotionally validating modality so yeah, get a sense of websites and feel things like vibe and sometimes it is like just the energy you feel coming off a picture like this person feels like good. I know both therapists that have been foundational in my life one was recommended to me and my current therapist who I've been with for six years, I don't see her like every week but she's my my person. I knew that she worked with someone I trusted very much. And then when I worked on her when I looked at her website it's like this is it like this is the person and then I talked to her on the phone and there were even more things she told me that you know, weren't on our website and like this is just this is a right fit. And so I will typically say and this is actually based on the literature that if you as the client feel that within three sessions this is a good thing it probably is. So it's kind of like dates like kind of that rule of three like if by three are just not feeling it Yeah. You have every right to look elsewhere.
Alison Cebulla 53:33
That is such such good advice. Okay, are you ready to do like the piece of
Anne Sherry 53:38
ask people like
Alison Cebulla 53:41
Jamie's therapist I would be grateful if you did that. Yeah
Anne Sherry 53:49
that's the first place to start Jamie
Alison Cebulla 53:50
Yes You're wonderful okay feelings we oh
okay, who's turning in it's your turn to go first. I did yeah turn I put it in the random list generator I we were getting our shit together a little bit by little bit here Awesome. Okay, are you ready yeah yeah wow okay valued I didn't say stop No, no, it's alright. Hey, it's just just picks a random we did this last time to
Anne Sherry 54:29
god I just had a big reaction. I was like I wouldn't be in control. Okay, random. Alright valued. Okay, I do get a body sensation first. Just lots of stuff in the chest is immediately coming up around just valued. I'm struggling with that right now. I think I'm I'm I'm moving into my 50s I'm going to be 50 Do five next month. And I'm, I'm, I'm curious, it feels like a whole new thing is opening up type of therapy. What do I want to do? So this thing of like, am I valuing myself? Because I tend to have this like I do, I'll do this or this person needs this or I don't want to admit as much that I don't check in with myself first and say, do I actually want to do this? And I'm gonna disappoint some people if I say now, but But can I okay to challenge you a little bit, you're gonna, I'm gonna challenge you, I know you're gonna challenge me. Challenge me whenever I feel
Alison Cebulla 55:42
like you're intellectualizing this feeling a little bit. And you started off. Could you come back to that warm heart? Let me get my body. Okay, just pick a time recently, when you felt valued, this kind of slow down, or not valued, valued, valued, valued?
Anne Sherry 56:12
When did I feel oh, okay, my cousin was just here visiting. And we're the same age and we had these different paths, and we didn't, we've been away from each other for 20 years, and we've just like, reconnected with each other. And she had the stuff she was sharing with me about our being together and what I'm bringing just the therapy and she's ready to do certain types of work. And she just was looking at me saying, I am just eating you up right now. Just who you are in the world and what you're sharing with me and so yeah, and that Okay, so now my heart expands thank you and actually took it in I didn't take it in till just now. Only tears tears tears tears
Alison Cebulla 56:59
and then okay, I'm gonna go and X cousin Jamie, what we're doing is we're saying what it feels like in the body and a time we felt it restarted. So minus startled. That's an interesting one. Because it's just almost like a moment in time. It's not like a It's the duration is short. Okay, I'm gonna go so, so basic, I was in that IKEA parking lot yesterday. And people in New England love. Do you know what I'm gonna say, to honk their horn more than anywhere I have ever been. And this and this is when I get the most startled because you're not expecting it and you're just trying to live your best life. You're not trying to harm anybody. Please just let me get out of the parking lot. By me, I hear it's so stressful for all of us, please. And, and my heart will start racing. And I and this is where I really do understand like road rage, which I don't get a lot. But when someone honks at me, I'm like, but you don't understand how hard I'm trying. And what it feels like is an increase in heart rate. And it really is like, I go into fight or flight response. So I'm immediately honestly in that situation of hockey, and I go into fight like I probably want to like get on my cargo kill somebody like literally like that's the rage that I'm feeling is like, it's like, I want to dehumanize them because I feel that I've been dehumanized. Like I want to make them see, but like, in a way that's like equally bad. So it's like,
Anne Sherry 58:35
or worse. Do you kill them? So my body
Alison Cebulla 58:38
gets like hot and I feel like a lot of tension and like I could, like my body is like ready to ready to move and fight. So that startled in the worst way.
Anne Sherry 58:50
You should move to the south.
Alison Cebulla 58:52
I know. I know. I know.
Anne Sherry 58:54
Yeah. Yeah, we don't. Yeah. All right. Jamie,
Alison Cebulla 58:56
are you ready?
Anne Sherry 58:57
I'm ready.
Jamie Marich 58:58
Do I tell you to stop? We used
Alison Cebulla 59:01
to do we used to do now I just put them in a list. Yeah, okay. You got loving, huh?
Anne Sherry 59:12
Oh, I felt a
Jamie Marich 59:14
like literally a heart warming that's like pink and red and my fists, like where the physical heart is. But I'm seeing kind of the shape of the traditional heart. So the first time
Alison Cebulla 59:26
that a time recently,
Jamie Marich 59:29
recently, oh, I'll keep it very honest. And just checking down on myself. Like while we were here, I saw a text come through. And it was from a friend of mine a newer friendship a newer connection, who was introducing me to someone like in her circle that would like the book and whenever I get messages like that. It's just this part of whenever I especially connect with women or it's like we're here to help each other and support each other. That's very low. Have any sensation for me?
Alison Cebulla 1:00:04
Gosh, thank you, Jamie.
Anne Sherry 1:00:07
Thank you so much, Jamie. Oh, how
Alison Cebulla 1:00:09
can people get your book.
Jamie Marich 1:00:11
So the easiest website I want to send people to is redefine therapy.com. That is like the one stop place we have set up as the virtual book tour, you can get a link to purchase the book there, you could hear a sample of the audio book. This was the first time I got to read my own audio book. So I was super pumped about that experience. And we have all the podcasts that I'll be doing like this one will be posted their virtual book tour dates. So right now the easiest place is redefine therapy.com And that connects you to all my other websites
Alison Cebulla 1:00:43
too. Awesome. We'll put that in the show notes. Thank you. Yeah. And then what is the day the book is released?
Jamie Marich 1:00:50
It releases on January 10. So I don't know when this episode is going to drop but it should be out by now.
Alison Cebulla 1:00:55
Yeah, it will be out. Okay. Great. Oh my gosh. Well, Jamie, thank you so, so much for sharing your wisdom and some of your your urgent parts with us today. Thank you.
Jamie Marich 1:01:09
I have to tell you I love being interviewed on podcasts because he always gives me some food for thought to keep starting with so thank you for the
Alison Cebulla 1:01:18
great chat into your Yeah. Yeah,
Jamie Marich 1:01:21
thank you. Take care friends.
Alison Cebulla 1:01:46
Thanks for listening to latchkey urchins and friends. If you like what you heard, follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts, but especially Spotify and Apple. And if you didn't like it, just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Cebulla and and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
