31 - Take the Long Way Home—with guest Jon Claytor, artist, painter, and writer
Anne and Alison interview Jon Claytor about his new book, Take the Long Way Home, a story of words and drawings. "In Take the Long Way Home, Claytor explores alcoholism, love, and family through heart-rending vignettes and expressive linework. This is the story of a man who unpacks a difficult past, only to discover that even at his lowest point, he was never truly alone."
Bio
Jon Claytor is a Maritime-based artist, painter, and writer. He is a co-founder of SappyFest, an independent music and arts festival and was a bartender and co-owner at Thunder & Lightning Ideas Ltd. in Sackville, New Brunswick. Jon is a father to five children and, for him, being a father is the biggest part of being an artist.
Jon Claytor’s work ranges from oil painting and watercolour to filmmaking, and he recently became a comic-writer. He worked with Ingram Gallery in Toronto and exhibited his paintings in Los Angeles. Jon holds an MFA from York University (2012), attended Nova Scotia College of Art and Design University (1991), and holds a BFA Mount Allison University (1998).
The book is out April 22, 2022: https://www.conundrumpress.com/forthcoming/take-the-long-way-home/
Jon's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jon_claytor_art/
Show Notes
Intro:
This Here Flesh by Cole Arthur Riley
Neil Strauss's The Truth
Healing Developmental Trauma by Lawrence Heller, PhD and Aline LaPierre, Psy.D.
Take the Long Way Home by Jon Claytor -- pre-order this book here! Available April 22, 2022.
Painting by Charlie Bigelow, Alison's great-uncle
Painting by Jon Claytor
Interview:
Transcript
Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.
Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our Spidey prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.
Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get
Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend. You are wanted here
Alison Cebulla 1:22
All right, welcome to another episode. Hey, Ann. Hi. Okay, so today, we don't have any business. So let's jump into the good stuff in what are you reading?
Anne Sherry 1:34
Who What am I reading? I am reading this here flash by Cole author Riley.
Alison Cebulla 1:43
She's
Anne Sherry 1:44
frickin young. I am like in her. Like you. Like early 30s. I think
Alison Cebulla 1:52
I'm in my late 30s.
Anne Sherry 1:53
Oh, yeah, I got us younger than we are. Nevermind. Anyways. Phil young to me. Okay, so it is a it's spirituality book. She's an incredible writer. I don't know entirely. It's just just, it's like, it's soul reading. It's like so good for the soul. I can't wait. I get up early and like wake up at 530 Because that's the time I can get reading done. And I am back reading. I'm happy to say
Alison Cebulla 2:27
great.
Anne Sherry 2:28
I don't know, I will share a quote I was looking through, like highlighting the whole book. So it's like, it's hard to find a quote. It's one of those books where you just like it's what isn't highlighted. Maybe I should share? God. Yeah. So this was in the chapter on lament. And I'm digging this a couple of quotes.
Alison Cebulla 2:48
I like that word lament.
Anne Sherry 2:50
I love that word. Yeah. Are you it? Yeah. So what she's saying here, it's, it's not good to drag someone out of their drag someone from their lament out of fear of despair. In fact, being forced to quickly out of lament can drag the soul into despair and secret. And I that resonates big time, I think in our sort of that way that I have been fine and not wanting to do despair. And so I like have a lot of parts that get all freaked out around despair. And I'm like, Oh, it's okay. To hang out in despair, the fact that you have been there, we're trying to drag we you know, as a culture, I think we're trying to drag people out of it. And then we just do it in secret. So I kind of see our activism here as saying, No, Despair is good. It's good. Go there. Don't stay there.
Alison Cebulla 3:45
Don't stay there. I don't know how long enough how I don't know.
Anne Sherry 3:49
Is good to go there with people too. I know. That's my, that's been my edge. So, but to read.
Alison Cebulla 3:57
So I'm reading right now, the book about neuro affective relational model Narm. It's called Healing developmental trauma. This is my second time reading this book. And,
Anne Sherry 4:11
oh, I have that book. That's one of the ones I bought and got put it on the shelf. Like, I know that cover,
Alison Cebulla 4:22
okay, I read it. I read it 10 years ago, or nine years. I read it in 2013. And like, I wasn't, I didn't, none of it resonated. You know what I mean? Like, the first time I read it, I was like, I mean, it was actually like an intro to like, Oh, I think childhood matters. I think your childhood there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, um, and actually, it was interesting. So I was reading this book in 2013. And then this is, this is how I ended up meeting and hanging out with with the author Neil Strauss, best selling author was that I noticed I was like on his email list. And I noticed that he was doing a workshop in New York City and I was just about to move to New York City. In one of his books. He says, If you want to hang out with people who are more successful, then you just offered a volunteer for them. So I just followed his own advice. And I emailed him and I said, Hey, I noticed you have a workshop coming up. And I was wondering if I can volunteer at your workshop. And he, I guess he clicked on like, my signature, my email, and I had just written a blog about childhood trauma and how important that was to know about it. And he was writing the his book The truth, which is all about his awakening to his childhood trauma, and how that was affecting his relationships. And so he read my blog, and he was like, he was like, yeah, he was like, you get it? He's like, you know, like heat. So he was like, yeah, absolutely. Come volunteer. And so then when he when I got to talk to him at the event, he just came right up to me. He's like, I saw your blog. Like, that's exactly what I realized, too. That's why I'm writing a whole book on it. Yeah, it was
Anne Sherry 6:02
just truth. I don't know this book. I'm sure that one yeah, the truth.
Alison Cebulla 6:07
Yeah. Cuz he He's famous for a really skeezy thing, which is the pickup artists book, you know, the game. Yeah. And so. So the truth is like, is like his antidote to the game where he's like, anything that I thought was going on was bullshit. What's really going on is that I had an enmeshed emotionally and meshed mom, who thought that treated me like, I don't
Anne Sherry 6:30
love that, but I love his really love his realization, amazing. And to say, not go down into despair. And like, I'd have to cover all this up, because I'm out. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 6:38
So he was like, I realized, like, that's what that's what's actually happening. He actually had to go to rehab for sex addiction, and that and then get therapy and all of that came out where he's like, kind of looking back. He's like, how come my mom was always giving me massages? And I can my mom was always complaining to me about her, you know, my dad. And how come she never let me leave? Like, go out and do anything? You know? Like, really, really, like overbearing?
Anne Sherry 7:06
We need like parental FIDE children like Yes. sexualized children. Yeah. actualized children. Yeah. Like I'm in a relationship with my parents. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 7:15
exactly. Yeah. And, and so, um, so then he, that's, that's what the truth is about. And I loved that book. So I do highly, highly recommend it and his audio books
Anne Sherry 7:32
for one radio to read.
Alison Cebulla 7:36
Okay. So let me share because it's my second time reading, healing developmental trauma, I'm getting a ton out of it, I highly recommend it. The only thing I hate about it, is that the author is his bio is like who the eff is this guy? It says like, I just hate, like, I actually want to know like, who did you learn from? Where did you learn? It doesn't give like, where did he get his degrees? I can't find it anywhere. Lawrence Heller, PhD is the originator of the neuro effective relational model, a unified system to work with developmental attachment and shock trauma. His work integrate psychodynamic approaches somatic experiencing as well as non traditional orientation to working with identity. He was the co founder of the Gestalt Institute of Denver, and has been on the faculty of several large universities. I hate that which universities why would it say that? Why would it say that they
Anne Sherry 8:35
have like a character amount, like, like on Twitter is that you like you only have 240 characters, like whatever, like, we can't name them all. We're just going to do a bunch of large ones. So
Alison Cebulla 8:46
yeah, so I can't find out what his deal is. And that really bothers me. So it's from North Atlantic books. I know the publisher there. I think I might actually literally reach out and just be like, you guys, what, why this stresses us out. This is bad for your readers. Okay.
Anne Sherry 9:04
Tell us tell us the truth. Right.
Alison Cebulla 9:10
So anyway, but I bought it is I mean, it's a great book. Okay. We don't know what I don't know where he went to university or where he taught, but it's a great book. Okay, I'm gonna just trust Him, but I know, I'm gonna take nuggets. Okay. So I heard this term, or resonated with me for the first time, which is I think, like, we all have heard hyper vigilance always be not alert for attacks. But what he talks about that that hits hit me and was so healing was hypo vigilance. And I was like, that was me, because I've really like my response to my childhood stress was to shut the EFF down. Just shut it down. Yeah, so I was very, very, very depressed and So I had hypo vigilance. So I really like I had I just had there were a lot of like creepy men that always wanted, you know, access to me as like a, you know, older teen and young adult that I just didn't have a regular normal amount of vigilance to say like back back the fuck off, you know, right so I'm very stupid thing it
Anne Sherry 10:25
or didn't want to say it like just it just was like, Oh, this person's in my orbit now and whatever they're here or like you didn't didn't register I don't think any of our register Okay? Wasn't like I need to tell this person to get the fuck out of my space. And I just can't find my voice. It was just kind of like, Ah, whatever.
Alison Cebulla 10:46
No, it's like hypo vigilance like no vigilance existed. Do you know I mean, like, I know, it's like
Anne Sherry 10:51
an oxymoron word. Isn't it? Like vigilance? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 10:55
Yeah, it's like vigilance is important. You know, so you're vigilant. Under vigilant? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, I just, I just think like, even like, with my drug years, you know, when I was 18, and 19, of not understanding how the world worked. You don't just be like, Okay, I'll just do whatever. I'll just okay. I'll try that. I'll do that. Oh, no. Oh, you like, it? Just there was no, there's like a good amount of you should distrust some people. Yes, that I just didn't have and it took me a long time to have a regular healthy amount of vigilance. Right. So this reading this and hearing that hypo vigilance can be a trauma response to your childhood is so healing that.
Anne Sherry 11:46
Yeah. Awesome. Let me know. Again, I always say awesome to these horrible concepts, these horrible ways. That's great. To know, but it's not. We have all these drama responses. That means we have trauma. So anyways,
Alison Cebulla 12:04
so. Okay, so struggle, party.
Anne Sherry 12:08
Struggle party. Shall I go?
Alison Cebulla 12:18
Yeah, I have one too. So I can go to
Anne Sherry 12:22
you go. Okay. You go first. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 12:25
I just I've been thinking about mine. For Okay. So. So mine is kind of it's, it's actually like, kind of a good thing. Like my struggle party is like, but the thing is, like, it's been really, it's been a struggle to process. So it's interesting, but okay. So not this weekend, but the weekend before I went up to the Bay Area with my dad and my brother to a memorial service for my dad's uncle. It's my, my grandfather's sister's husband passed away. And he's my great uncle. Right. And so, and we, we interacted with them many times throughout our life, you know, so this was someone that we knew. And, you know, we were on the periphery, you know, but we this was a beloved family member who passed away. Charles Bigelow is his name, and he's an amazing painter Bay Area painter. And stuff. He's so good. Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes. That's amazing. And so it was a really lovely, lovely service at their home. And the their, one of their sons, like led them memorial service. And he had written, like, all of his kids are just amazing artists, really creative people. And so his son had put together the most gorgeous, written tribute to him. It was like a poem, and it was so beautiful. And it was just like, it really helped the space. Everyone was overwhelmed. I could tell it was like, so good. And when he went to go sit down, I thought to myself, someone needs to acknowledge what he just did, like someone needs to hold space for him, that he just did this incredible thing and that he and that his dad just passed away and that he has all this emotion. Someone needs to hold that for him. Oh, you know, by like, reaching out and being like, hey, you know, like, you know, I know, look them in the eye, see? Yes. And I was like, and I was like, Well, it can't be me. Like, I don't I barely know him. And so I was like, feeling anxious because I was like, someone needs to do this. And someone did do it. And I'm gonna start crying and it was my dad. Oh, and make me cry. Because my dad, he reached over and, you know, grabbed his shoulder and just was like, That was so good and looked him in the eye. And I just couldn't as soon as I saw that I just started crying because I just made me realize that my dad I'd does that for me too. And so
Anne Sherry 15:11
the yummy tears the nerves, that like, we're sometimes I think afraid to feel they get mixed up like just tears and emotion is bad but like there's such a range of like, I see you tears are yummy tears are nourishing or
Alison Cebulla 15:26
Yeah. So because you know, like the healing process is a lot about like you have to get in there and heal what was wrong. But then it's like, I just having a moment of holding space of all that was right, you know is also just a struggle sometimes.
Anne Sherry 15:43
I know, I know, I'm gonna refer back to tamaraws work the like, Grief Recovery process, this is a huge piece of it being able to make space, like in through the process, it says, don't just talk about what was wrong. You need, you know, you do a timeline and you put above the timeline like things that worked. What can you appreciate, you know, like, so it's Yeah, I know it to me, it feels like tilling that soil. You know, rather than just saying yeah, it's all bad. That's trauma, trauma. It's like it was all bad. It didn't work. That's important. But there is this is about movement. And
Alison Cebulla 16:23
yeah, yeah. You know, so we're recording this. And as we're recording this yesterday was Easter. And my mom. We were kind of joking before we went over to my mom's house that she didn't do holidays that well, when we were growing up. It was just hard. She just didn't do them. And she went all out yesterday, she like hit a eggs for us adult kid and like made a big meal and like, had the cute Easter decorations and gifts. It was like, I'm going to cry again. Like it's never too late. Like that's what makes me That's right. She's doing it now. Do you know what I mean? Like, it just means so much. Yeah, and um, you know, she's 16. And I'm 37. But she really made an effort and it's like, you can heal at any time like it is not too late.
Anne Sherry 17:22
Yeah. Yeah, I'm never too late to have a good life. You know, and even the Buddha wisdom that I've loved is like, if you get one second of enlightenment, whatever, this feels like enlightenment, what's happening right now, then your entire life is worth it. I was like, meditated on that. I was like, one second, like, but it's like, it's that right? Because it's just, there's some peace in that, you know, like, so.
Alison Cebulla 17:49
So, go Mom and Dad I know. So, yeah, and now that I just saw just a newer podcast, okay.
Anne Sherry 18:05
It's bound to happen. I mean, maybe the struggle that well one stroke, like, this shit is happening real time when I like started this podcast with you. I was, you know, one, I'm just sort of dragged into it a little bit. Like, that's how you have to do Gen Xers drag us into the light. And then we're like, oh,
Alison Cebulla 18:25
yeah, you said you wanted to do this? Are you sure
Anne Sherry 18:27
my struggle a little bit is related to just in some therapy work. I did a like a one off session a bit with a another ifs therapists kind of just not therapist that we just trading session sort of thing. Kind of I got to I got to some deeper work and found these parts that describe this like, almost that. What they were saying is there's a fear in being well, there's some I think, you know, as I do this work, there is some comfort in identification with being masked, being messed up, or you know, and I was so interesting, because it was like, I don't know how to end so I'm on a, I'm struggling with it right now. Even just just trying to make sense of it. Like because there's this wanting to tell the truth, as we were talking about, like, being able to tell the truth of your childhood. But somebody in their parts are saying, you know, you have to actually be in it, and deep down in it, to tell the truth, like it's hard to speak of it. So if I get well or healed, then they're going to feel forgotten. So I'm kind of wrestling with these parts that are like you're just gonna go and be flitting off and happy and well and you're gonna forget about us. So I think there has been a lifetime just how I've lived my life, maybe as a seven Enneagram which is kind Like, we don't want to go into the depths. So I am trying to figure out how to be in relationship with them that they don't have to drag me down and make me passively suicidal to get my attention. And so maybe it is through writing or you know that I ways to be able to speak the truth, trying to make more space to be with them. And integrate that these parts that in literally the image of them is like they are these like underground imprisoned almost like this underground army of ones that like, like, No, we can't let you say that you're well, because then then you'll flit off. So something, there's about a groundedness or something. I don't know if any of those shifts making sense, but somehow, like being able to live big and full in the world, but also like, No, and I have a whole history of neglect and shoving emotions down. And so I'm trying to,
Alison Cebulla 21:01
it's kind of like mine. It's kind of like, it's like, yeah, in space for the good is also there's some suffering there too, right? Because here you saw like, my overwhelming emotions that that are ultimately very good of connected. Yeah, gratitude, something around like a nourishing comfort, family comfort that makes me cry. It feels overwhelmed to acknowledge how good it is. Yeah, I'm
Anne Sherry 21:29
so curious, like, which parts are going like, yeah, that's grief. And I think it is being able to hold that space of, I don't for you know, you missed out on nourishing experiences at that time. But if you you stay, yeah, that if you say in that truth, then you're not you can't be open to like, letting your parents become like, have made mistakes and do better and get better and, and be in relationship with them now, but I think I think all of that shit can be held at the same time. Thank you. Thanks, Alison. For your courage and yeah, sharing. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 22:10
Yeah. Having a meltdown already.
Anne Sherry 22:14
Yes. It kind of goes with who were who's coming on talk about a healing journey. John, Johnny took a tour. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 22:24
John's book comes out this freaking week, which is why I got it
Anne Sherry 22:29
is coming out. Yeah. So
Alison Cebulla 22:33
yes. And so that his book is called take the long way home. And on the back it says in 2018 artists John Claytor said goodbye to the Maritimes and hit the road, his destination and artists residence in Prince Rupert, where he planned to work on a graphic novel about his eight week journey across Canada. But this story like most isn't about the destination. When John sets out he's less than two years sober. He's recently broken up with his girlfriend and his mother has just revealed a startling family secret. As John drives, he makes frequent stops to visit exes and children, old friends and new and attends meetings to support his sobriety. He sorts through memories of his past reconciles reconciling them with his present. He makes amends, seeks wisdom from wildlife and learns the value of getting lost along the way. Wait, I'm like Did we ask him about the startling secret?
Anne Sherry 23:25
I don't think that did. The startling secret. It's in the book is that his mom had a kid before him. Oh, left Canada, I think it went to No. Because he was born in the States. And then they went to Canada. Anyways, his mother just went on a wild streak a bit and got pregnant and then decided to have the baby and gave it up for adoption without ever seeing it. And so it was interesting. I mean, he covered that in the I just, I cannot stress get this book. Don't get this book order it. It was so I sat down and read it in one sitting it was like it's 400 pages and I was like I'll never get through this but it was like, I don't know an hour and a half maybe he just get on the road trip with him. It is He here's the bear I like so much oh so much his detours and like you're really on the journey with him and his note. It's the he has this just beautiful, subtle way of noticing and elevating the mundane. And it's just this car he's he's got this calmness about him. And I mean some of the things I just I mean, pee in your pants laugh out loud. Like when he talked about my favorite one is about the car when he said nothing gets my existential angst going more than my car breaking down because he projects at the tow truck Her son is going to come and tell him that his car broke down because he's bad and stupid. And I'm like, I that's me. I just die. So like, I'm gonna be. I know. And I think we resonate on the Gen X. We're about the same age. I think you are about the same. Yeah, he was born in the early 70s. Right? We talked Yes. Yeah. So his brother, I think it's a brother. Yeah. Is would be my age. And I don't know if he's found his brother or not, but he told his kids immediately, you know, and his kids were like, Oh, cool. We've got a brother. Let's go find him. And he just knew that his kids were gonna, like, start researching and try to find his brother. So it just, it's just this like, it's not I don't know, I didn't get the sense. It was like, Oh, my God, it was like, Oh, this happen. I just, I'll roll this in. So I yeah, it's been so fun to me. We've kind of had some email exchanges, too. I sent him a picture of the art piece that I'll talk I talked about that made me get the art piece. That's his daughter. I sent him the picture of me as a little kid. That reminds me of the art piece.
Alison Cebulla 25:59
What did he say?
Anne Sherry 26:01
He was like, Oh, I totally see the resemblance. He was like, I really get it.
Alison Cebulla 26:06
Yeah, that's so fun.
Anne Sherry 26:08
So anyways, I'm really excited to have him on.
Alison Cebulla 26:11
Yeah, I hope you enjoy our interview with him. It's it was a real honor to get to interview him and to help him promote his awesome awesome book, which is drawings that he has made with words. So it's not it's not like a novel or like, you know, it's it's it's an meanderings. Yeah, it's
Anne Sherry 26:33
an experience. That's good. Yeah, that's so take the long
Alison Cebulla 26:37
way home. So we'll put that in the show notes. But follow him on Instagram. You know, the show notes.
Anne Sherry 26:44
He puts out comics and he's he's, he's awesome. Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, put
Alison Cebulla 26:49
them on your radar. Okay. Yes, here it is.
Anne Sherry 26:52
All right Hey, everyone, welcome. We've got John Clay Torre here. Am I saying that right, John? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Sacha a cool story of connecting with John. I actually bought one of his He's a painter, an artist. In 2018. I was traveling in Canada. And I saw your work and which, which gallery? Was it in St. Andrews. I take? Yeah, St. Andrews. Ingrid Mueller gallery. Yes. Yes. Fell in love with the work immediately. It didn't make any sense to be buying paintings. While we're RVing and saving money, but I can't cannot help myself. And that was 2018. And then. I don't know I've just I've kind of been stalking you a little bit, here and there. And then I, as we were doing this podcast, I checked back in and you were your book was about to launch? I think so I reached out to you and said hey, wacky story about your painting blah, blah, blah. And you Yes, it's called the long way home, right?
Alison Cebulla 28:32
Like the Supertramp song. Yes. About anyways.
Anne Sherry 28:38
Yes, yes. And so the timing was pretty cool to reconnect. And your story is amazing. And
Alison Cebulla 28:48
you have his bio. Oh, I
Anne Sherry 28:50
got your bio. Yeah, so you read about John Clay tour John clitoris a maritime. The rich is a maritime based artist, painter and writer. He is a co he is a co founder of sappy fast and Independent Music and Arts Festival and was a bartender and co owner at Thunder and lightning ideas limited and Sackville, New Brunswick. John is a father to five children and for him being a father as the biggest part of being an artist. I agree with that. I have one of one of those children things. John Clay source work ranges from oil painting and watercolor to filmmaking and he recently became a comic writer. His books amazing people you must get it and read it. I'm it's reading it in one sitting is amazing. He worked with Ingram gallery in Toronto and exhibited his paintings in Los Angeles. John holds an MFA from New York, attended Nova Scotia College of Art University.
Alison Cebulla 29:45
Wait, where's your sorry from Toronto?
Anne Sherry 29:49
Oh, I read New York. Yes. My brain does that.
Alison Cebulla 29:54
That's not a University New York.
Anne Sherry 30:00
I bet you'll get a degree. Go to Art College of Art and Design University and holds a BFA from Mount Allison University. Welcome, John, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks
Jon Claytor 30:13
for having me.
Anne Sherry 30:14
Yes.
Alison Cebulla 30:16
Can you just tell us a little bit about that painting and we're gonna put this painting in the show notes, and we'll put it on Instagram. But and yeah, and found this painting and it's like, I'm like, You, she put it up as her profile picture. And I was like, and that's like, literally gave me credit teen of you. And so can you tell us a little bit about it?
Jon Claytor 30:39
Me the painting? Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little distracted by my dog. She's always over there in the corner. I think is that is that painting on like an old cat? Is it like painted over another painting? Yes,
Anne Sherry 30:54
it is. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 30:55
So it was a little as I was going through of just picking up paintings from thrift shops that were, you know, kind of old, unwanted and using those as my as my starting point. Which seems super egotistical to paint over somebody else's. Yeah, I was I was a little torn, but at the same time, it's it felt right at that moment to be using something discarded as as, as the stretcher as the support, and then painting as one of my children. And just, you know, I probably I painted that probably about six months, painted that right around the time. Yeah, shortly after I got sober, I think. And so it was just, you know, I was this old Canvas being painted over. And that's what I was doing with my art at the time as well.
Alison Cebulla 31:53
What I want to know, is like the expression on the girl's face is kind of melancholy. Which, which is why I think we love it so much for our podcast, because we kind of just like to look at some of the darker emotions that are less explored. Was that intentional? Or was that just kind of it just happened that way? Or? Yeah,
Jon Claytor 32:12
it's like, I always see that sort of expression as a space between, like, smiling or frowning. And like, you know, like, between emotions. I don't really see. Personally melancholy as much as that in between. Got it?
Anne Sherry 32:27
Yeah. And this is what we do. We go around the world projecting, like I'm projecting myself, right. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 32:34
And it really reminds me how that is what artists Yeah.
Anne Sherry 32:39
Yeah, there's pictures of me at that age. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like same hair, the work. So it was it was a welcome. I was struggling. I've learned about myself that I do struggle when I travel more. And I didn't even I didn't know that I have this sort of free spirit. And then we were really it was really a struggling time. And we are almost at the end of our trip. And I don't know, so it just was like, Oh, there I am. So I just gathered her up and brought her with me. So
Jon Claytor 33:08
was that comforting for you?
Anne Sherry 33:10
It was it was Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 33:14
That's a great, great your inner child out there in the world. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 33:17
yeah. Yes. And the gallery owner was so wonderful to hang out with for a while and talk to so yeah, she's nice. I'm sure you heard. Yes.
Alison Cebulla 33:28
So the first question we always ask is whether or not you were a latchkey kid or an urchin. And urgent has a bunch of meanings you may have heard and, or a friend and kind of like, I think you're our first guest from Canada. So we're super curious to know was that a thing? latchkey thing? Were you born in the 60s or 70s?
Jon Claytor 33:49
I was born in the 70s. I was born in 72. Okay, and yeah, it was because I was thinking, I didn't hear that term until I was older and people people use it. I'd obviously didn't, you know, identify as a latchkey kid when I was a kid, right? So I googled it just to make sure I understood what what you know what it was, and, you know, I had the I had the lanyard with the keys on it, and you did, but like, My childhood was, like, I moved a lot like 11 different schools by the time I got to grade 11. And I was thinking, so I was a latchkey kid, and I thought, well, it doesn't really apply to me. And I thought of my life and like, there's like in these phases of existence, and one was like, I had the keys and I would come home and I'd let myself in because my mother would be home but she was bipolar. So she was often and she diagnosed but untreated. So she was often asleep, you know, and so I'd come home I had total freedom, right? And I remember that my whole life just having this total freedom. Yeah, the other phase of my childhood was my my dad was the a biology student, and we'd get summer jobs in the woods, like counting bugs and things. I'd go out there with him. So it wasn't a latchkey kid. But I wondered because you don't have a key, you don't have a door to the tender age. So I'd wander through the woods all day while he's at work.
And I was trying to and then it's funny because like, how are we looking back at your childhood? Like, at what point do you start to think of yourself as a grown up, right? And I was thinking, Oh, I had this other experiences we had. My dad had this job. We went in we first we camped all summer, and I actually got picked up by a school bus in the edge of the forest. And then we moved into our house and went to school. The school was terrible. So I was like, Can I stay home and teach myself? So that year, I homeschooled myself, my dad went to work. So I was a latchkey kid, not exactly. I was home all day. And then I was thinking, Well, what was I still a kid? And then I realized I was 12. Like, I think I was still a kid. Like my, my kid. My twins are 12 now and they're definitely kids. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 36:09
but yeah, don't use that. Were like letting kids be kids a lot longer now. Like, I really came out of the womb and adult like, and there's a great tick tock account where it's a dad making fun of 80s parenting. I was born in the 80s where they're like, you know, screaming at their very, very young children, like act your age and get me. Yeah, they're, they're like five cleanup that mow the lawn and clean up the kitchen and give me a beer. And I think we let kids be kids a little longer now.
Jon Claytor 36:42
Absolutely. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 36:44
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's gonna work. I don't know, it's probably in 20 years, they're gonna be screaming to their therapists, you know, like, yeah, I got no meals, right?
Jon Claytor 36:58
Actually, I think it's an amazing generation that's, you know, come into being with phones and all that stuff like the last 2015 years of like, new adults, like they're so creative and mind blowing, like how they express themselves. Like, we I wasn't like, it wasn't okay to express yourself when we grew up. In Canada,
Alison Cebulla 37:20
can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Jon Claytor 37:28
Can I tell you more about that? Can try it? Definitely. Like, I think it's just like, there's been a shift from where, like, like, we I feel like I was sort of like, I was lucky in the sense that like, my mother is a creative person and an artist and still is. So I had a sort of example of like, okay, here's one way to go, you know, in many, many positive and negative ways. But in general is like you like the idea that you that expressing yourself and being creative is a normal part of everyday life, wasn't what we experienced, going to school, going to high school in the 80s. Whereas now kids on Tik Tok and everything else. It is like they're they're being is expressing themselves. Like, I think it's, it's incredible. Like, yeah, progressively human race.
Anne Sherry 38:20
It is interesting, because there there can be this focus on like, Oh, they're on their phones all the time. Or, you know, the negative side of it. You know, like, you're right. You're right. They are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 38:32
And they advocate for themselves, you know, they advocate for their mental health and like, yes, they
Anne Sherry 38:36
do. Yeah,
Jon Claytor 38:38
we did not. I did not do that. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 38:41
Well, and was going to therapy and like, seeking mental health that you had said, Your mom was diagnosed, but not treated. But like, Yeah, I mean, we weren't really like to go to school. I mean, you really want going to therapy much?
Jon Claytor 38:58
No. And I think like, my parents in particular, were of the general hardcore generation of like, you don't go to therapy, and like, you know, like, my mother has rejected the idea that her diagnosis could be real, you know, she's still, she's still rejected the entire life, you know, dealing with this condition that, you know, she needs, she
Alison Cebulla 39:21
needs help, do you and you could totally, you don't have to, but um, just for our listeners that maybe also grew up with a parent that may have had this and they're not sure what to look for, or for people who didn't and want to understand better what you mean when you say that? What did it look like in your home?
Jon Claytor 39:38
Yeah, that's a really, I could tell you a few stories that really sort of would paint the picture. Yeah. It was. It was It was chaotic, and and the extremes of like, my mom would be sleeping. In her case, like she'd be in her room, checking out from society for months at a time. And then on the flip side, Just like for a kid, absolutely thrilling mania and like, we would hitchhike, you know, we'd hitchhike to another city. She's like, let's go. We're gonna go because my I was born in San Francisco. Okay. And I never met my grandparents. My mom was like, let's go, let's go visit your grandparents. I don't know what my like, I don't know what my dad thought. But next thing I know we're hitchhiking to the bus station. We're getting on a bus. We're taking the bus across a, you know, the Midwest and into Arizona. And then we get we get to Arizona, and we checked into this hotel this is like, this is a good snapshot of my childhood. So we check into this hotel. Something happens. She is catatonic and, and I'm on my own here for like a couple days for like three days. Okay, she's just laying in bed and I'm too young to even ask somebody for help. Right? Really, but like I could. I took her money. I bought myself burritos. I bought myself this little like cowboy suit. Like I was like protecting myself in a way. That's so nice. She got Yeah. And then she got better. And she was like, she said, I was bit by a spider. It's just one of these things like I'm 50 now it took me 247 To think like, is that what happened? Like, what happened? Like what actually happened? But then our trip went on. And we made it to California, we got to Los Angeles, I met my grandparents, you know, and then we're back. Same journey. Same, you know, adventure is hearing their
Alison Cebulla 41:33
story.
Jon Claytor 41:35
It's yeah, so it was like there was like this amazing plus side, where we just had such great adventures. And then the downside where, you know, whether it's in a hotel room in Arizona, or in our apartment in Toronto, where she's just not responding.
Alison Cebulla 41:54
And not responding. Yeah, yeah.
Jon Claytor 41:58
Did you have this experience as well? Do either of you had had that? Well, your parents?
Alison Cebulla 42:03
We, I mean, the I think the common thread that we constantly come back to on our podcast is the childhood emotional neglect. So if your mom is cycling between being super stoked or can't, can't get out of bed, nothing wrong with that totally normal, but your needs as a child are not getting met your emotional needs. She's not looking you in the face and mirroring your emotions. She's not saying How did that feel? Are you feeling sad or feeling disappointed? Are you feeling confused? It's not happening. And then we grow up into adults who don't understand how we feel. We can't understand why we're having the moods that we have. We have no emotional language. And it's very confusing and disorienting.
Jon Claytor 42:46
Yeah, yeah. You know, and I don't think, yeah, you don't you don't have the language for it as a child and like, in your 20s you just want to get away from it. So it's like, a surprise was a surprise for me as like, you know, like, I thought I got through life. I'm like, in my, you know, when I was in my 40s, and then to be like, Oh, shit, like, let's have a second look at
Alison Cebulla 43:07
what got up with you. What caught up with you all of a sudden, what made you have that second look?
Jon Claytor 43:13
Well, like my, my addiction and alcoholism, like was taking a serious toll. So I started to sort of look at like, well, where's this coming from? Like, what, you know, what motivated that relationship with my mother and like, the word neglect isn't? I don't know, I'm not super comfortable with that. Sure. But I get it, for sure. But, you know, like, like, she had her traumas too, right. Like was like, you know, and maybe. And maybe I was spared the sort of traumas that she experienced, I don't know, but I was still dealing with her, like, she had learned to only sort of register love in terms of like, a heated argument. So the only way that she could feel that I, I loved her was if she got me really mad. And then I would have, you know, would, we'd fight and like, so like, getting to the point where like, Okay, I'm 40 like, I'm trying like, I've, you know, like, I got sober and I did some work. And I like it was like, okay, like, I understand boundaries, and like, this relationship is still only built on one thing of conflict. And so realize, so like, that process, I guess of, I didn't have the clarity to see it until I got sober, I guess. And then I was able to slowly realize like, okay, like, we're doing the same thing. Like, we're doing the same thing for half a century. Yeah. And it's not, it's not working. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 44:47
It's wild. I mean, I didn't. In my family. I grew up as the hero and I had an older brother. He's deceased now but you know, these kind of roles that we had to play because they're just we there were As on some level, it's like, I don't know, going on if my parents would have taken some wild road trip, I get, like, kind of how exciting and how much time you're spending. But for me, you would ask like, it really was just this like blankness. Like, they weren't, it didn't seem like they were interested in us at all. They were kind of dissociated or checked out or did their own thing and, and kind of the 70s was like that a bit. And I'm still uncovering. Yeah, right. Yeah, like, just recently, I had such a meltdown about it couldn't do one. Just one simple thing. But it got I was just in overwhelm. And it was like, it really was related to how I wrote I would ride my bike, like at eight, I fell so hard. And I pop up and I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And I've just I've noticed I've done that for most of my life. I'm fine. I'm fine. And I wasn't fine. And like years of therapy, just keep like taking off layers and layers. And you know, my husband and I two are essentially in recovery. Right? We quit drinking about five years ago. And it was like, oh, oh, alcohol makes you super fun. And like, very friendly. Or thinking about a lot. So it's a hell of a journey. The getting sober. And I don't know. Like, yeah, John.
Alison Cebulla 46:22
Oh, well, what prompted you to get to get sober? What was that? Like? Well, recovery, I was a math major. Yeah. So this is a safe fucking. Because look, we're talking hard drugs over here. Okay.
Jon Claytor 46:43
I was just thinking the other day, you know, if I, I think that if, if, if like medical science invented alcohol, we'd all be getting prescribed it, because it really did cure my problems at first. Like, yeah, it just made it made it just so I could continue. And I think I think it's why, you know, it masks them at the same time, right. And it's just what, like, it just started. I was, I always loved it. I was always a daily drinker. And all that, and I didn't realize that, like, I just think of all the moments where I was there. But I was, I was very much under the influence, like my son's first day of school. You know, like, all these big moments, like, children being born, like, I was always drinking, I was always drunk and, and it just, like, made it so I could get through life. But it catches up with you. And yeah, I just, I didn't want it to end I just really didn't want it to end. And I get like the question you asked, like, there's only one answer. And that's that, like, I had in the back of my mind that like I could check out you know, I could, I could just keep doing what I was doing until it snowball to the point where I could just check out and cash in my my chips and kill myself and try and I tried it and I was just incredibly lucky that the attempted didn't succeed. And and was left just feeling like absolutely terrified. Because I didn't want to die. I realized I was overcome with what I had just about done to my children. And I didn't know how to live either. So right, right, right. Yeah, my case i I went, I went to the doctor, I got prescribed a million different kinds of medication. I became a zombie for a little while. And I went to AAA and I eventually found my way. So yeah,
Alison Cebulla 48:42
wow. Thanks so much for sharing that with us.
Anne Sherry 48:45
Yeah, that what you said I didn't want to die, but I didn't know how to live that's sort of that that really powerful base is yeah, like, we we do try to cover that like, yes, please seek a meeting. Let somebody know you're hurt. What I love I you know, in reading your book, you just capture so well. You just tried things you just kept going like just for today, and that's sort of the AAA just for today.
Alison Cebulla 49:12
What worked, what worked? What were some of the key things that worked? What works
Jon Claytor 49:17
for me so many different little things back to it. Like for me going into meetings? And, and being this horrible thing of honesty, like starting to be honest about Okay, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I'm starting to be honest with the people around me and then it just like becomes this thing that gets harder and it gets harder and harder to lie and without lying. It's really hard to hide in addiction.
Alison Cebulla 49:47
Right, everything.
Jon Claytor 49:49
Everything was hard, but outline. A little things were like, I would tell myself like I'll do it like, I'll do it tomorrow. Like I'll go Don't go back out tomorrow like I'll, I would just put it off long enough that I could stay sober. And then I'd wake up in the morning and I'd be like, Oh, thank god like, I'm still sober today. And then I'd get another day. Like, yeah, yeah, what works? Like it's such a mystery. Like, I still don't know, I still don't know what works to be honest. Yeah. Well, first
Anne Sherry 50:20
thing is, like all the spiritual wisdom, you know, trying to get you just how to meditate, meditate, all the things that get you into the present moment. And it's almost like that, that type of thing brings you like, you do have to be in the present moment. Like, I'll just walk. I'll take these steps. And yeah, just for today, just for today. So it's kind of like, kind of a backwards way to get to that spiritual path of like, oh, like, I
Jon Claytor 50:44
mean, that definitely worked for me, like just doing the things that I was told to do. I didn't believe in them. Like, you know, when people didn't think it would work. They did it. They did pray, pray, you know, pray for the people that you have resentments for. I didn't think it would work. But I did it. And they said, like, trust
Alison Cebulla 51:00
trust is working for you trusting the process, doing the thing before you're ready.
Anne Sherry 51:07
I very much resonated. Yeah, go ahead.
Jon Claytor 51:09
The big thing for me was was connecting with people like I had built up a, like a wall, like, and maybe, you know, not everybody necessarily knew it. But I did write, you know, and I felt and so just just doing the process of like, reconnecting with everybody and telling them what I had been through. And being honest with my, my friends. And one thing I noticed, like, you know, like, whatever, has everybody I know who is sober and like, somewhat content, has done it through some sort of community and connection, right? Whether they're like, yeah, and there's so many different ways to get sober. And yeah, I really found my community through. AAA. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 51:53
So what did your community like? Community in your life, like that basic human need? What did it look like before you got sober? And then what does it look like now after?
Jon Claytor 52:06
The big difference is I can ask for help now. I'm getting better at it. Yeah. And little things, you know, just even little things just a bit. Like just like taking a ride from somebody like, things I just wouldn't do before. I wanted to be alone. So I could do whatever the hell I wanted. Right. Right. And now yeah, just yeah, just like and just being open. And so like, listening to people tell me how they feel and, and sharing back to them. How I feel is the game changer. It's like listening to people's stories. Yeah. And share and sharing mind like not thinking like, Oh, nobody wants to hear. Hear it. Right. But
Alison Cebulla 52:47
yeah, can you tell us a little bit about why you think that making art can be so healing for people,
Jon Claytor 52:55
I think is a fundamental human need. And I think like an error like society, like in capitalism, and like the Western world, we've pushed it down, and we've monitored, monetized it and we've tried to turn it into a job and I don't think making our job and it gets away of being a human. I think it's the way it's or it's a very vital way to be a human being. Yeah. Lots lot of ways to be human. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 53:21
That's right. That really resonates. But like you said, I
Anne Sherry 53:26
think I mean, just the way that you lived. I mean, I mean, okay, while you were drinking is a art or not art. I mean, the whole thing is, in a way, but just the art artistry of your six week journey across the country, you know, how just, I don't know, there was one piece where you sat and looked at a wolf or something like it just the way that you give voices to animals to like, just sort of like a flattening that that, you know, humans are, whatever that thing in the Bible that we're inheriting the earth or something. All right, yeah, for sure. But I love the way that you're like, John, you really, you know, get over yourself, John, you know, like the animals. Yeah. Like, turn the animals into these wonderful little therapists. But I don't know just you're living your life as art once the alcohols out what was um, we interviewed the party coach. What did he say that alcohol takes away our creativity. Evan, what was your confidence was
Alison Cebulla 54:27
confidence and sells it back to you?
Anne Sherry 54:30
Yeah. Then alcohol takes away all our confidence and then set they sell it back to us,
Jon Claytor 54:35
right. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 54:37
yeah.
Alison Cebulla 54:39
But I think my I think the question that's coming to my mind with your comment and is like, what does what does that mean to live in a way that's, that's artistic, or to say I am showing up as an artist, or life is my art.
Jon Claytor 54:58
I've had good answers to this at times. And then And then sometimes more more vague, but I think that I think that to experience the world is to be an artist. So if you're experiencing the world that is showing up as an artist, but if you're blocked, like, you know, we block our experiences with drugs and alcohol and fears and anxieties, so if you're blocking your experience, you're, you're not so I don't like, I don't think it's necessary that you like, drop, drop a picture of the sunset. But if you really experienced that sense that you're, you're like, experiencing it through like an artist sighs okay. I love it's really good.
Anne Sherry 55:41
Well, and this is the thing about neglect piece is it can take away I mean, you got to have your feelings, I think, right, I would write some access to emotion or feelings to be for things to be real. But when you grow up in neglect, or a lot of chaos, often you you're there isn't a lot of room to have just these big explosive feelings or for somebody to hold space for you. So I think that's sort of what happens when we have these chaotic, neglectful childhoods or trauma of all kinds, we sort of like we keep the kind of check out, you know, like, and then you can't you can't live as an artist, you know, in a way until, you know, you realize that and come back to it. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 56:26
Yeah. I mean, my, I, from my personal experience was, I definitely started painting as a way to try to just make sense of the world and to communicate. So it was like, there's so many ways it was like, not a, it wasn't like a healthy reaction to my life. It was just like, random, you know, like drinking, like, it was something that saved me and made it so that I could some sense of the world. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 56:53
It didn't How did it? Yeah. Did it make it make sense?
Jon Claytor 56:58
Definitely. Yeah. Like, like, like this, like the experience of and buying that painting. You know, like, if I could make something that I couldn't necessarily tell somebody how I felt. But if I could make something and somebody could look at it and have an experience, it made me feel less alone. For sure. That's, I think that's always what I've looked for in, in art in the art that I make is to feel less alone. Yeah. And so, but it's a but it's a wonderful space, like, especially painting is like it's safe, because there and has experience with the painting. I have the experience with the painting, but I never have to be exposed to having an experience with a human being.
Anne Sherry 57:44
Until I found you. Yeah, well in this thing, you so would it is your shift from painting to doing the comics. Or what does it call it? Digital books? The comics, okay. That's a shift
Alison Cebulla 58:06
right? away. Yeah, illustrations. Yeah, we we really quick, why? Seriously?
Jon Claytor 58:14
Oh, I just, I have this pet peeve about any of my work in college and illustration, which no offense never said that. Yeah. Got it just yet. No, you didn't say that? No,
Alison Cebulla 58:26
no, but just I don't know the difference. So just Oh, yeah. Yeah, like,
Jon Claytor 58:31
I mean, I'm being a bit.
Alison Cebulla 58:33
I don't know that that word is gonna come to mind for me, but just what is literally what
Jon Claytor 58:37
I feel is more of an illustration is more of like a service. Got it. You illustrate something for someone.
Alison Cebulla 58:43
Okay. Whereas you're illustrating your ideas and thoughts are Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Anne Sherry 58:50
So there was a shift right. from painting to what? Yeah, which is way more interactive? I would. Yeah. So. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 59:01
Yeah, the connection that I make with these comics is way more intense, like the connection with people reading them. And like, having this book out in the world is so much more intense than doing an art show and having my paintings on the wall and having some regrets
Alison Cebulla 59:20
for surely tell us more. Tell us more. We want to hear about regrets. It's what I live with every
Anne Sherry 59:25
day. I can't believe I talked about that.
Alison Cebulla 59:32
Millennials don't have this. We're just genre and
Anne Sherry 59:38
we're like no, nobody gave a shit. We Yeah. To our graves my husband struggles with this too. So he's saying Yeah, same age. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 59:54
Yeah. Yeah. So
Anne Sherry 59:55
well, that's so interesting, because when I bought that painting, I had so many question sense. I was like, I was like, Who is this guy? What does he do? Where does he live? Where does it you know, it's trying to get it out of Ingrid. And now I know I read your book and all my questions got answered. I was like, Oh, fine. He was married to so and so. And you know. And so relating Yeah, most
Alison Cebulla 1:00:15
vulnerable thing that you shared in the book
Jon Claytor 1:00:24
most vulnerable thing that I shared,
Alison Cebulla 1:00:26
it's already in the book. So I'm like, hey, look, you got to share it again.
Jon Claytor 1:00:35
You know, it's a funny process, I think part of you know, like, yeah, my story with, with, like, addiction and suicide, for sure. And that's, like, really upsetting to people who are close to me, too. And so Got it. Got it, you know, and I had, so that experience of like, okay, I'm putting this thing out in the world, but it's, it's an I tried to focus on my story, but it's something that affects the people who love me, as well. Right. And that I have a lot of conflicted feelings about that is something that I've done. Okay. And I can't undo. And then a lot of the, you know, like, a lot of the reason I used animals was like, I need a little I need that space. Again, you know, to talk about my emotions without makes directly. Yeah, being directly my emotions are
Anne Sherry 1:01:25
Rogers did that he used?
Jon Claytor 1:01:29
Yeah. And I think like, the things that are most vulnerable are things that like, nobody would really pick up on, you know, just like the way I the way I feel about the people in my life. You know, good, good and bad, and like, it's there, but it's like, it's not like a specific like, thing. You know, it's just like, yes, just, yeah, just my feelings.
Alison Cebulla 1:01:54
Well, and how did the book come to be in existence? What was that? What How did that happen? From start to finish from idea to Yeah.
Jon Claytor 1:02:05
So, so, I was I had owned a bar. And I owned this bar for three years. And if you really want to, you know, go full throttle on your, your addiction, like have unlimited free yet?
Alison Cebulla 1:02:21
Absolutely.
Anne Sherry 1:02:24
No, smart. Obviously very intelligent.
Jon Claytor 1:02:29
But they ended up living above it. And then you don't have to. Yep. Yeah. So miracle, unbelievable. I was able to sell it. And when I sold it, you know, gave everybody money who I owed money to and paid off my debts. Great. I bought an iPad. I just I like bought myself an iPad and an eye pencil. And I was always the kind of person who was like, no, like, when it comes to painting, oil painting and traditional materials. And like, you know, I suddenly I had this like iPad and this digital drawing, and I was like, Well, what can I like, do with it? Like, I was there. So I started, I started drawing on it. And then I had never done an artist residency, it came up by chance an old friend invited me to apply. And I did so I got this artist residency. So I had an iPad, and I had an artist residency, and I didn't have any ideas of what I was going to do. So I do like, what do you what are you going to do is like, well, maybe I'll make a comment about driving out there and driving back. So it wasn't like I was gonna, like, make a comment about my, you know, journey with addiction or anything, right? I just decided, Okay, I'm gonna make a comic. But as soon as I started, I realized it just became, like, like, I felt the way I felt when I first discovered painting for the first time like, that I needed this, like, I needed to do this to stay alive. And, and I needed to tell the story that I had been kept keeping inside from the people that I loved, right? And I needed to try to reconnect. So it just, it just sort of sort of like happened, I'd be driving and then I'd be drawing and, and posting things on Instagram as I went. And I I don't know why I did. I did that. But I think somewhere I knew that, like if I didn't post this and nobody was ever gonna see it. I was far enough away from home that I could that I didn't have to like, see people in the grocery store after like, you know, posting these things. So that was that's a really strange like, like technology. You know, like, social media iPad, like all these things that I had, like, you know, rejected as a good Generation X person. Were organically 100% part of the process. And so I was about halfway done the book by the time I got home. And then I, that sort of gave me the momentum to like, keep doing it. But it was a really strange experience to post something so personal. And then like I said, Walk into the grocery store and have somebody say, like, Oh, my God, like, I read that. And like, you could see that they were not not shocked, but moved, which was reassuring. But like, like, just the most vulnerable I've ever felt was working on that book and posting it as I went. And yeah, and like I said before, like, like, I know that I put, like, I also made the people that I wrote about vulnerable. And that's so weird. I don't know, I'm not totally reconciled with that. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:05:50
We're messy, right? I mean, we aren't I mean, what so what seems like hurts so much is that we get in our little silos, you know, so there is no way to I don't know, this feels. I mean, I think this is part of what we're doing here. I think Allison is saying, Hey, I think most of us experienced some neglect or, or our earth wouldn't be in the shape that it's in, right if we weren't so separate and siloed and that somehow this I don't know how this got handed to us. But the technology piece is allowing us to get out there a little bit more Allison's pushing me like, I've written a couple of pieces, and people are like,
Alison Cebulla 1:06:27
Oh my God, I feel so seen. I'm like,
Anne Sherry 1:06:29
Ah, get away. Yeah. Initially, and I think that maybe it forever. It's like this, like freeze a little bit. And then it's like, okay, like, come back into your body breathe a
Alison Cebulla 1:06:41
little bit. It is wild for me to watch Gen Xers try and put themselves out there in the world. I don't I can't really I literally cannot really. I started having my own radio show when I was like, 12 like, you're Amy like, it's just such a different era. It's just such a
Anne Sherry 1:06:56
I love bringing Gen X people on because it is too against. Yeah, yeah. What do you think, oh, for me, or or Allison,
Jon Claytor 1:07:05
like for Gen X, or either of you? Like, what? Why? Oh, why do you think the way we are?
Alison Cebulla 1:07:10
So, so historically, parents, we're going to this is great. I mean, I'm like in full support, but mom started going to work. And I think there was a mismatch. I mean, most of the research that we have now because I work in in, like child health research and communicating that is a result of like, very, very modern day neuroscientific discoveries and a couple accidents like unfortunately, everything that we know about attachment comes from the Romanian orphanages, when that Romanian dictator with the name I can never pronounce
Anne Sherry 1:07:43
Ceausescu.
Alison Cebulla 1:07:44
Yeah. Yes, put a whole whole whole bunch of kids in orphanages and said, Don't touch them. And so then you got this random experiment that was like, Oh, you have to touch kids, and you have to you have to COO at them. And so, in the 70s, I think the research wasn't there or hadn't been disseminated, that you can't just leave your frickin kid at home alone or to wander through the forest, even if it was so fun, because human beings have nurturance needs and if they don't happen, not that I'm not saying it's like necessarily bad per se, but like it could disrupt a little I don't want to but I don't want to put that on anyone. I don't want to I don't want to make it a judgment. But like, I think nowadays, we may have swung in the wrong direction. Like one of our guests use the term over neglected instead of neglected.
Anne Sherry 1:08:36
Our kid told her she didn't want to be overcorrected
Alison Cebulla 1:08:39
overnight, her kid was like, stop over collecting me. Right. So there's such a thing as too much attention as well. I don't know, we don't know what the right recipe is. But in the 70s it was like, I just think it wasn't known. Like, probably pay attention to your kids sometimes. Like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'm like, maybe don't just leave them at home alone all the time. Like maybe they need someone to watch them. Like
Anne Sherry 1:09:04
or say How was your day? Show me your homework. The other piece that I would like to reset, I don't know how prevalent this was. But there was a birthing practice of knocking women out on morphine and scopolamine. They're just there just because they wanted pain free births. And I don't know how big that was. I was born in an army house Army Hospital, and I asked my mom about my birth. She's like, I can't remember and I thought she was kind of being a jerk. And like, like, I just, you know, it wasn't important enough for me to, to kind of remember, but she literally can't remember. I mean, she was not.
Alison Cebulla 1:09:41
My mom's mom has that too. Now she was probably on it to my number.
Anne Sherry 1:09:48
Yeah, yeah, often, I remember being in second grade and then people showing their forceps scars. And I don't know if we actually like somebody had them but then if somebody had something then you wanted to have it too. And I'm like, oh, I'm sure I got some, you know, oh, my God, all kinds of shifts coming back around that. And just
Alison Cebulla 1:10:05
the 60 scoop is such a good example. Because it's, it's pretty much the same exact era. And it's like, again, just like a lack of basic understanding about human attachment needs. You can't just take pull kids from their homes, and stick them in another home. Like it doesn't work. And even like now in the field that I work in, of like child mental health services and stuff, is like, we're realizing that even if a child is in an abusive home within limits, within reason, yeah, pulling them out and putting them in foster care isn't the thing. It's not the thing, it doesn't work. And it often makes it worse. And and we're not doing this kind of like whole family restorative work with the with the family of origin or with the community of origin. We're just sort of like almost take a kid and put them over here. And it's like, that is it's just doesn't work.
Jon Claytor 1:10:58
Now. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:11:00
Well, what we're, I mean, if you turn it and look at society, why don't we have good child care? You know, why are we like forever in America like fighting over like, you know, maternity leave, or paternity
Alison Cebulla 1:11:11
leave? So much better?
Anne Sherry 1:11:13
Yeah. John.
Alison Cebulla 1:11:14
Never had a real official position on this part. Yeah.
Jon Claytor 1:11:31
Yeah, you still have to be in the system to benefit from it, though. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:11:35
And what is that? What are you? What does that mean?
Jon Claytor 1:11:39
Oh, just like, there's great, like maternity leave and things, but you still have to have a job.
Alison Cebulla 1:11:46
Or you have to have a job. Oh, I see. I see. That's a problem. That's a real problem. Okay.
Jon Claytor 1:11:52
But yeah. Back to parents. doing such a good job, like are seven these parents like their parents were like my parents, my grandparents, you know, they were in World War Two. Like they. I doubt they had the same. Why No, they didn't have the same compassion that my parents had for me. Like it's, and then now the result is like, we're even more compassionate. But it's like, that's right. Yeah. Like, like, they probably thought they were helicopter parents at the time. Yeah. Kids don't have jobs. Like that's so
Anne Sherry 1:12:28
true. working in a factory. Exactly. Yeah. I'm at home on the bus making whatever they want at home. Like that's and the other thing too is we've talked about before, but the TV shows that we were watching after school were often leave it. I don't know what shows you had in Canada, but leave it to be very, very hosts. Like mom and dad there. Yeah. So and your Andy Griffith Show was one I watched too, but it's just super wholesome stuff. But you're there by yourself. Like shoving sugar in your face. And yeah, pitchers of Kool Aid. Like,
Alison Cebulla 1:13:03
did you I mean, so. But you sometimes you have supervision sometimes not. But one fun thing we like to ask certain guests was like, Did you make any certain foods like when you're home alone?
Jon Claytor 1:13:13
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought about Oh, okay. Well, just like food memories as a child, like when, when my mother she used to work at we have Tim Hortons here in
Anne Sherry 1:13:23
Canada, which is I went yeah, yeah. She
Jon Claytor 1:13:27
had the night shift at Tim Hortons. So I would wake up in the morning, and it'd be a box of like, Dale doughnuts. And, and, you know, she'd be sleeping all day. And that was a dream. And my, my, my like, go to like, what did I cook for myself? No, I like to. I loved like a cold can of beans.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:49
I was like, have we heard that before? I swear we've heard that before someone else had cold.
Anne Sherry 1:13:53
Cold spaghetti. Oh, Spaghettios for sure. Like, yeah, I
Jon Claytor 1:13:58
was just like, Yeah, well, cannabic beans. I love that. And the other thing that I loved was a bowl of frozen corn.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:06
No, you did not.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:10
English is because kind of like ice cream.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:14
Yeah, actually. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:14:16
Sweet Orange.
Jon Claytor 1:14:18
no cooking involved.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:20
Oh, my God. That's hilarious.
Anne Sherry 1:14:23
Did you have spam? Was spam back there.
Jon Claytor 1:14:26
Spam does exist in Canada. Yeah. Okay.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:28
But you said you spent some of your childhood in the US or?
Jon Claytor 1:14:32
No, I was. I was born in San Francisco. But my parents moved to Canada. Right away. Right away right away. Got it. Got it. My parents are from Los Angeles. And yeah, my dad didn't want to get drafted. Oh, last last draft dodgers.
Alison Cebulla 1:14:50
Wow. And WOW. Jimmy
Anne Sherry 1:14:52
Carter, Jimmy Carter. Like excuse everybody, right? He did a pardon blanket? Yeah. Oh, yes, Jimmy Because Jimmy
Alison Cebulla 1:15:04
will just a couple more questions and then we're gonna play a little game. So I think
Jon Claytor 1:15:10
just fine.
Alison Cebulla 1:15:12
It is it is. Yeah, just go ahead and fear. The fear. Yeah. I've just anyone who, because like you were you had made such a great point about the process of making art and how like in your projects, everyone makes art. And so for our listeners who are curious about accessing that for themselves, do you have any advice? In terms of healing through art?
Jon Claytor 1:15:42
Just don't judge yourself when you're like making something like, it's like, there's nothing I love more than a drawing made by somebody who thinks they're bad at drawing, but does it anyway? Like, just there's no reason
Anne Sherry 1:15:55
to judge? Yeah. Yeah. Like permission somehow. That's it. There's a ton of permission. Right statement. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's really not for somebody. Right? You had said exactly. Yeah. Except yourself.
Jon Claytor 1:16:13
Yeah. And so everybody can make something good.
Alison Cebulla 1:16:18
And then I think coming, coming back to what I had asked you about the, the process of, of your book, you you started the project, then at some point, you realize this could be a book, I'm not sure that I got the full timeline. And then you were like, This is gonna be a book or like, what how did that happen?
Jon Claytor 1:16:37
Yeah, as I was, well, people started saying it to me. Okay. Okay. You know, yeah. I think I probably, like, I probably had the idea that it could be a book in my head at the start, but I wasn't got it. You know, like, Would it be something that I'd go print at? You know, the staples store? Or would it? You know, I didn't really think it would be published by like a real publisher. Yeah, and then, and then, when it was done? Yeah, it was just the thing. I really just got a lot of feedback from people that this could be a good book. And why
Alison Cebulla 1:17:17
is it called take the long way home?
Jon Claytor 1:17:23
Just because literally, that's what I just waited 47 years to find. Yeah, yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:17:34
To find out Wait, that's like, it's such a juicy little piece right there of like, what, what is, what is home to you?
Jon Claytor 1:17:42
Well, you know, what is home? To me? It's funny, because I am most comfortable moving, like, home, like so. Like, really? Like, I'm one level home was being in like that car and, and moving all the time. Right. Like, that's my comfort place. So, sort of goes along with that to me, like, like, home is being like, at peace with myself. And then, and then I'm home, basically. So like, making those connections with people like feeling like being able to look in the mirror, like, Okay, I'm home, you know, even if it's the rearview mirror in my car, while I'm moving like yeah,
Alison Cebulla 1:18:23
so some self some self acceptance and self love and like, even seeing yourself
Jon Claytor 1:18:31
if you can't look in the mirror, and you can't live in your own body, like you're never gonna feel home. Right. Right.
Alison Cebulla 1:18:36
Right, right. Yeah. Yep. And how can people find your work?
Jon Claytor 1:18:46
The best place really is my Instagram, which is John underscore Claytor underscore. Alright, I think
Alison Cebulla 1:18:53
great. And we'll put that link in the show notes as well. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 1:18:56
I just kept publisher said it's coming out in a couple months. Maybe
Jon Claytor 1:19:01
it comes out on April
Alison Cebulla 1:19:02
Yeah, April 22. That's so soon. That's so yeah,
Jon Claytor 1:19:08
yeah. So you can order it from any bookstore
Alison Cebulla 1:19:12
Wait, so are you terrified that once people get their hands on this book, then they're gonna know you wait. Injustice everyone is gonna have their hands on this book
Anne Sherry 1:19:32
dragged me into podcast land and I
Alison Cebulla 1:19:35
every day I had to bake.
Anne Sherry 1:19:39
It is it is excruciating. And also finally a lot of the work is working. I think we had one we have one guest, Julian Davis. It was like I don't know. I just kind of grew out of it. You know, his mental illness. Like I kind of grew out of it. You know, I just softened a little bit, but there is something. I think there's something with the latch kit. Yeah. I don't care less
Alison Cebulla 1:20:01
you care less. Yeah, like that's one of the greatest gifts about growing older is like you're like,
Anne Sherry 1:20:07
Oh, yes.
Alison Cebulla 1:20:08
I don't care what I'm wearing or like what you said, Look, I'm just trying to live my life.
Anne Sherry 1:20:14
Yes, yeah. So anyways, you have a wonderful series on getting the box of books on Instagram of what it's like to open a box of books that I guess has your life first. Yes, yeah. So I cannot say enough I people get this book. It is so good. I sat and read it in pretty much one sitting. It's really, really, really it's a lot of pages. And I was like, Oh, I'll never get through this. And then you just are so I mean, it's lots of pictures, which is wonderful. Not illustrations.
Jon Claytor 1:20:49
I think that's one setting. You can do it. Super.
Anne Sherry 1:20:56
Yes. Wow. And we just see ourselves so much in there. My husband and I,
Alison Cebulla 1:21:00
I think the takeaway was like, there's lots of different ways to process like, what you're feeling and experiencing that could be more imaginative than what's literal, that I really appreciate about your book. Like it, it almost helps me. It almost helps me because I don't think I don't know if I like see myself as an artist, or whatever that means, or like, I haven't delved into that identity for me. And so your book, like with all the like, oh, like now on the bear, you know? Or like, what, like, what would that be like to try on is like, it's like that kind of like magical realism genre, or, like, you know, like, like, what, what would it be where, like, it didn't matter if something like, physically really existed, and my thoughts were as important as what I'm, yeah, yeah, that I just love. Because somehow it opens up some space. It just opens up some space for creative, creative healing.
Jon Claytor 1:22:02
And like, validating your thoughts, right? Yeah, your thoughts are real, like weather. Yeah, yeah, that's a real everything's real.
Alison Cebulla 1:22:13
So game time. Okay, so we will all play this game, but um, yeah, I'm John if you do not mind going first. So I have a wheel in front of me. And it has all the different feeling words on it. And so I'm actually just going to put my finger on the wheel and you tell me where to stop and I'm going to stop on a feelings word. And you would just share if your game you can say no to if you want this is this has to be conceptual, but you will just share a time recently that you felt that feeling and what it felt like in your body. Okay, so I'm starting and I'm just putting my finger around the wheel and so you just tell me when to stop
Jon Claytor 1:22:55
Okay, stop
Alison Cebulla 1:22:57
sleepy
Anne Sherry 1:23:01
feeling it because none of them feel like feelings.
Jon Claytor 1:23:08
I've had COVID this week so I felt felt sleepy and I felt sleepy in life just through the pandemic you know, like just kind of way
Alison Cebulla 1:23:18
Yeah. And what is sleepy feel like in your body?
Jon Claytor 1:23:23
Oh, what's it feel like in my in my body likes like soup
Alison Cebulla 1:23:30
so warm it feels warm where you become soup so your your muscles relax?
Jon Claytor 1:23:38
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just sort of gooey it's hard to move because you're just sort of a gooey mess
Alison Cebulla 1:23:52
Thank you John.
Jon Claytor 1:23:54
I'm the first person to lose this game. No, Everyone's a winner every week
Anne Sherry 1:23:59
I like I like the fight I fight against I'm like that's not a feeling my response
Alison Cebulla 1:24:08
yes yeah. Okay
Anne Sherry 1:24:10
shit I'm always suck it stop if you say to her I'm gonna kill you.
Alison Cebulla 1:24:19
dismissive mother we're just dismissive you were literally Oh, really? Yeah, just like sleep is not appealing.
Anne Sherry 1:24:32
So I what I I immediately go to being dismissed is what like I went to but it's like me owning you. Yeah, you owning it owning dismissive. When was that? Okay, so with the certainly with the game, I guess that I want to but that's not super real. Let me think if it was kind of joking in that way, dismissive. I was dismissive of my kids. This morning when he opened the refrigerator and an entire thing of yogurt came out and spilt on the floor and he was like pretending like he is all of a sudden has a gag reflex to yogurt so he doesn't have to clean it up. So I was dismissive and said, figure it out. I went very latchkey, like, you're almost 10 years old figure it out. That's kind of dismissive. It sounds a little powerful, actually. And
Alison Cebulla 1:25:28
also, that sounds like kind of good parenting.
Anne Sherry 1:25:32
Yeah, okay. Well, a little bit
Alison Cebulla 1:25:34
like, You spilled it and you have to clean it. Like that seems like pretty good for his age. No,
Anne Sherry 1:25:39
but I'm sort of an enabler to. It's easier. I always go down these all these rabbit holes. So and what anyway, so dismissive. Feels like it my body. I felt a little bit powerful. Like I'm sitting up more straight, and I have less sensation in my body feels more bored, like, not bored, but like a board like plywood stick. You're feeling more stiff? Like figure it out? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:26:11
Okay, maybe Thank you angry. Okay, so John, if you just tell me when to stop for mine.
Jon Claytor 1:26:19
Okay. And stop.
Alison Cebulla 1:26:24
Energetic that's the opposite of sleepy
Anne Sherry 1:26:32
new feelings.
Alison Cebulla 1:26:34
Okay, so like states
Anne Sherry 1:26:39
which I guess is a feeling I don't know.
Alison Cebulla 1:26:41
It's, we're it we are literally doing the work of increasing our feelings vocabulary in this very moment. So thank you for Okay, so I'm energetic. That's a tough one. Because I agree with you, John. Like the pandemic has felt sleepy, like the last few years have flown by and they barely count. But I'm actually I had the experience of having a very energetic drive. Normally, it's tough for me to drive long hours, but I did a road trip. Last week where I was. I went to like a few different national parks and went trail running. And I think it was so pumped that I did this cool trip for myself and did all these fun things that I wanted to do. And it was like out trail running and seeing the trails that even though I think normally, I would have needed like 12 cups of coffee instead of the six that I drank to drive home after 11 hours. I was like, That wasn't so bad. I actually was able to do that didn't feel that sleepy. So I think that there's something about, like, if I'm doing something that I feel is really like filling me up, then I have more energy. And when I sit with I'm energetic. I think what's coming to me immediately is like this feeling of my eyes being open, like my eyes feel like open and alert instead of like my lids being down. My lids are all the way up. So yeah, that's energetic. So thanks. Thanks for listening.
Anne Sherry 1:28:17
Thanks for playing
Jon Claytor 1:28:19
it, it's one of the best feelings really it is a feeling
Alison Cebulla 1:28:23
feeling and it's so good and it's been more and more rare. So I feel like that's like a reminder to me of like find those energetic places and stick with them. You know? Yeah. So John, thank you so so much for sharing your gifts and your journey with us and all of our listeners and that everyone needs to go get his book on April 22 take the long way home by John Clay door and we will put all that in the show notes and we wish you the best with being seen you're about to get so seen and we really
Jon Claytor 1:28:57
hope that no one's gonna buy it thank you very much and
Anne Sherry 1:29:05
Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:29:07
well, I've always thought it's strange when people say we raise it because they got a different
Unknown Speaker 1:29:27
thing.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai