30 - Ending the Stigma—with guest Ariana Vargas, founder, STIGMA App

Episode Notes
Written By

Anne and Alison interview Ariana Vargas about STIGMA App and documentary films about overcoming childhood trauma and sharing mental health struggles. STIGMA App normalizes conversations about mental health, one story at a time.

Ariana Vargas is a creative director, researcher, and brand strategist who is building a new kind of mental health app that uses storytelling and reciprocal social connection to reduce loneliness and stigma. She is a documentary filmmaker and mental health advocate working. Her first short film, "STIGMA | Strong", is a film festival semi-finalist and is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime.

Bio:

Ariana Vargas is a documentary filmmaker and mental health activist who spent her early career as a creative director and brand strategist for companies ranging from tech startups like Clearcover to Fortune 500s like Dell, Elkay, and Nationwide.

Ariana is the Founder and CEO of STIGMA, a mental health app that uses storytelling to fight loneliness and improve mental health, crowdsourcing hope. She is also one of the 46% of Americans who will personally experience mental illness in their lifetimes and believes the only way to normalize conversations about mental health is to be brave enough to have them.

When Ariana was growing up, she didn’t have an outlet for talking about her father who had schizophrenia. So, she created the Stigma app, which allows users to share their personal struggles and stories and even ask for a message of hope. Gibson found that hearing, “you are not alone,” can help a lot.

Show Notes:

Intro:

Interview:

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05

Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10

And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19

Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal. latchkey kids

Anne Sherry 0:29

are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45

Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our Spidey prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51

Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55

Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00

Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04

Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08

whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend you are wanted

Alison Cebulla 1:13

here

all right. Hey. Hi, Alison. It's good to see you this week. We tie now the time people need to know that just in case you're like, what's the rest of their life? Like we're just texting all day, every day? Pretty much? Yes. Yes, business business is just again. It's very, very helpful to us and our reach if you subscribe and follow us on Spotify and Apple. So please do that. Also, if you want to subscribe to our newsletter and get links to blogs and videos that we do that are outside the podcast, we're just going to do that monthly. So go ahead and sign up. It's on our homepage latchkey urchins.com. Um, we have a Facebook, we have an Instagram. That's all the day that we have on what are you reading?

Anne Sherry 2:17

My text messages right now? Yeah, I know. I know I'm in I'm in a bit of a reading desert. I what I did do is check into Amy Schumer's who lose series called life and Beth. And it's so good. I think it's based. So it's, it is based on her life. So she's kind of, you know, doing these sort of flash. It's not flashbacks, but um, scenes to her childhood, when something happens in the around drinking or relating or relationships. And she takes it back to a couple of actors that are her, her and her sister. And just you know, the dad, she grew up with the situation she grew up in. Lots of being left alone, lots of figuring it out. So relatable to her childhood. It's just really well done. And then she she is married to somebody who's neurodivergent autism. It is so good. The burgeoning of the relationship of her character and this person, they fit incredibly well together. It's just incredibly well done. I highly, highly, highly recommend it. So it's called me and Beth, life and Beth. on Hulu. What are you reading, watching? Listening to?

Alison Cebulla 3:40

Yeah, so last night, we watched an episode of maniac. It's from 2018. I'd never heard of it before. It's with Jonah Hill and Emma Stone, it's on Netflix. And it's about, we only watched one episode. But the reason I want to bring it up is because it was really stimulating for me to watch the Jonah Hill character, he appears to have schizophrenia. He has delusional psychosis where he's imagining things that are not real and imagining that he's having conversations and he's in situations that are not real. And it's really it's like kind of a dark thriller. So you're like, you're not even sure what's real and what's not. And what was interesting for me watching it is that you know, because my ex, my ex boyfriend was schizophrenic, the one that we talked about in episode 20, who passed away earlier this year. And in Episode

Anne Sherry 4:36

23, I saved my family and all I got was a participation trophy. 23 episodes

Alison Cebulla 4:41

so yeah, I'm where I talk about my delusional thinking that Tyler and Kevin were like, Yeah, me too. You know, we also had this but watching the Jonah Hill character have those delusions and have them sound so familiar. And to see him portrayed in a way that's so crazy is that was like wow, I was really crazy. Be like I was really crazy, like not a little bit but like a lot. And I mean, I'm okay now I don't I still I don't still have those delusional thoughts. Yeah, um, but I like watching and just being like, I was not okay.

Anne Sherry 5:16

What year I was about to say like what a good pair we were I was totally dissociated and neglectful. You were having you're detoxing from meth and, and having grandiose delusions, and we're like, we're great. Perfect. So much space for each other because we're here that's good memories of the beginning of our relationship. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 5:42

I mean, I'm so I'm the age now that you were when we do that math. I would never live with a 20 year old and I feel like I'm

Anne Sherry 5:53

glad I get that. Fucked up as how lucky

Alison Cebulla 5:58

I didn't mean to dig, I guess.

Anne Sherry 6:02

I don't know. I don't want

Alison Cebulla 6:05

20 years or so messy. I would just feel like no, I don't want to do with your shit at all. You need to go away.

Anne Sherry 6:13

Well, I knew I wouldn't take care of you. I knew I wouldn't. I mean,

Alison Cebulla 6:20

you weren't gonna get you. You introduced me to my therapist. introduced me to yoga. Wow. Yeah. So. So anyway, which is all to say, a maniac. I don't actually know if I can watch the rest of it.

Anne Sherry 6:37

It's is that a movie or a series? A series, but

Alison Cebulla 6:42

I appreciate it. I do appreciate it because it's like I think that more of us have delusional psychosis then is talked about which is a great topic to discuss in our intro to the art our interview with Arianna Gibson. What she's

Anne Sherry 7:03

doing is so incredibly important and rich, and this episode is an A real tangible way that we can you can help with mental illness. Oh, let's struggle. Drag a party. Dylan? I think of Wayne's World

Alison Cebulla 7:30

for the Yeah, exactly. Yeah, me too.

Anne Sherry 7:32

Okay, who's going first? Yeah, obviously not. Oh, right. You make me go first. So I can do you want me to go to disappear? You go first. Struggle, struggle lady. Feel this week?

Alison Cebulla 7:46

This week did not like last week. I was like, what doesn't feel like a struggle. And this week is like the complete opposite. It just didn't feel like a struggle. It felt good. The only thing is like I quit my job a month ago. And I was super curious to know how long it would take me before I wanted to work again. And it was yesterday. It was like literally one month yesterday. I was like, I want to work again. I'm done. I'm done taking a break. So that's my struggle. I just felt done and I'm ready to to get another full time job. And

Anne Sherry 8:16

that's it. Okay. Tools.

Alison Cebulla 8:20

Yeah, no, I think like, my dad just like actually letting myself rest so that I know what I want. Yeah. So my

Anne Sherry 8:29

cool rest. And then there's this idea that I use, I gotta it's called a sensitivity cycle. I can't totally whatever. It comes from hakomi training. Cedar, Barstow, those right use of power, did you study it? Anyway. But there's this idea of like, rest, incite, action, satisfaction. And when that's really working, well, you really can, like you're moving in the world coming from sort of a insight oriented or this is what feels right. You know, like, I've got the insight and now I can take the action. But if we don't, if we don't rest, nothing can bubble up of what actually wants to happen. What's my purpose if we don't create those spaces of rest and it doesn't mean like sleeping you know, getting a lot of good night's sleep. It really is like being able to rest your body, your mind your soul. And then you can kind of feel what wants to happen next. So totally sounds like that happened. And now yeah, now you can take action. And when you take the action you'll be satisfied and then you rest again. So beautiful little model so what I think I'm coming to terms with I have ADHD.

Alison Cebulla 9:48

Yeah, you did you mentioned like last week.

Anne Sherry 9:51

I did but I mean, was that my struggle last week? I

Alison Cebulla 9:54

think so. Yeah. Well,

Anne Sherry 9:55

how ADHD of me to a fucking forgot Right? Like there.

Alison Cebulla 9:59

I could be wrong. Maybe it wasn't your struggle, but you definitely mentioned I've been talking

Anne Sherry 10:02

Well, probably millions of texts throughout the week. I've told you that I'm actually going to seek out diagnosis. I'm excited for you today. Yeah, and then part I can, but the struggle part of it is like, holy shit. Two things. If I don't have it, what the fuck? Like, why can I get shipped fun? Yeah. And if I do have it, what the fuck? It's like 25 years of having it and masking and figuring, you know, all the ways that I learned to deal with that. And but what I? Yeah, so it's that I'm in process of that finding someone and maybe even if I have or don't have it, there's lots of coaching around it, it feels like I have something enough that I could use some actual skills to be organized and not operate not like send, do everything impulsively. Like, you send me a text and I can just read it and wait a long time when I have time. Yeah, long

Alison Cebulla 11:00

term thinking, I had that realization with my ex boyfriend, the one who passed away. I was like, he he can't use a calendar. Like I kept thinking he like that was the whole thing is I was like, eventually, he'll get stuff together. And it was like, after dating him or being with him as his partner for like a year and a half. I was like, yes, no, no, no, it's that part of his brain? I'm not saying this to you whatsoever. But I get it. Yeah, it doesn't work. Yeah. Because of his childhood trauma, that part that is able to plan for the future, set a calendar, create a schedule, check in with that schedule, and have that linear timeline in his head. It doesn't it just doesn't work.

Anne Sherry 11:40

No, it doesn't. And I mean, I don't you know, I identify with that on a smaller degree. You, right? Yes. And it's, but I do see the space where I could have an impact on it. It's sequencing, like, it's really hard to sequence like, these things have to get done in order for this other thing to happen, you know, being I don't know, being able to work back and forth. And, but everything become and also the seven diet seven Enneagram. Everything's shiny and exciting. And I want to do all the things so. Yeah. That's it. That's my struggle party. Stay tuned.

Alison Cebulla 12:21

We're so excited for Thank you. And this interview with Arianna, we wanted to talk to her forever. We want to connect

Anne Sherry 12:29

and not once free what every single person must. And if you're oh, this person

Alison Cebulla 12:37

Yeah, like maybe I should pull her app into my program. Do it Do not, yeah, not delay, make haste. Reach out client.

Anne Sherry 12:45

If you're a therapist, every client needs to have her app.

Alison Cebulla 12:48

I have Yeah, I have so many ideas of where it needs to be needs to be in the hands of every and I because like she could solve. She's a trustworthy person in that. What I mean is like her products new, but she's so open to feedback that if if she can get all every single person who's listening to use her app, recommend her app, and then give her that feedback. She requests that at the end, this thing is gonna evolve to exactly the place where it needs to evolve. It's just I trust her completely complete. I trust her completely. Her heart is in the right place. She's so freakin smart. I was blown. I was just blown away. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Completely. It's, it's Yeah, mental health. Crowd sourcing hope.

Anne Sherry 13:33

Yeah. And then internal family systems we have we have a term called Hope. Hope merchants like you are that sort of like, in that model. You're sort of working. You're working with stuff that feels awful for people but you're also kind of holding this like, okay, we're, we're merchants of hope so it feels like her app. Just takes that and makes it tangible and available. All the time. All the time.

Alison Cebulla 13:58

Love it. Hope you enjoyed the discover it.

Anne Sherry 14:01

Yes. Enjoy.

Alison Cebulla 14:24

We are so excited to be here today with Ariana Oh 100 Gibson. Welcome Ariana.

Ariana Gibson 14:31

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Alison Cebulla 14:33

So Arianna is the founder of something called stigma app. She's a documentary filmmaker and a kindness champion. And her personal core values are integrity, compassion, and empowerment. She is the creative director, researcher and brand strategist who built a new kind of mental health app and uses storytelling and reciprocal social connection to reduce loneliness and stigma. And you just must immediately in fact, if if you want to just pause this, this podcast right now and just just please run and go look up WWW dot the stigma dot app, and just you could just gotta get in there. And she produced a film, the film's called stigma, right? The one that Anna and I saw.

Ariana Gibson 15:25

So that one is called stigma straw, okay? And I wanted to kind of focus on one topic, but put stigma in there. So the brand could be exposed, and people would start to associate our content with, you know, the name of the app. So,

Alison Cebulla 15:37

okay, we're gonna link all this stuff in our show notes. But this was a film that she made about her husband that you can, that I just, I've been working in the trauma field for the past three years. And this film is just right on the nose of the trauma healing movement. It's just, it just gets everything right. So it's on Amazon. We'll link to that in the show notes. And we'll ask you about that in a minute. But of course, first, we have to ask you about cinnamon toast and, you know, keys around your neck. So where are you a latchkey kid, and or an urgent or just a friend? And then what was the cause? We know, we know we saw the video about your husband. So we know you're a friend. And what was the emotion?

Anne Sherry 16:29

I saw your video on your on your page on the stigma app. And so you had said you had you struggled with a couple of things. So I was like, she's got something

Alison Cebulla 16:39

and she's, she's, she's a latchkey urchin. Okay. And so like what was the general emotional environment of your childhood? So there's a couple questions.

Ariana Gibson 16:49

Yes. So to start, I like I thought about this in advance. And I thought I'm, I think I'm a hybrid where I was sort of at the tail end of when that was still happening. I was born in 1983, in Costa Rica, to a Costa Rican father and American mother. It did not work out for them. And so when it didn't, my mom moved us to where she had family, which was Prairie Village, Kansas. So from Escazu, Costa Rica to Prairie Village, wild. But I mean, I was I was young enough that, you know, I for all intents and purposes, I am a Midwest born and raised kind of person. But I got to go back to Costa Rica. We can talk about that another time or later if you want, but just sort of that multicultural upbringing and exposure, I think was wonderful. But in the Midwest, in Kansas City, Kansas City still is a really wonderful place to raise children, a lot of people Oh, great. Oh, that kind of secret of, it's wonderful. There's not tons of traffic, you can afford to buy a home. And in the 80s when I was growing up, and maybe you know, let's call it late 80s, early 90s. When I was out hitting the road, I was out hitting the road and I was definitely a tomboy. I loved sports. I loved rollerblading, and riding my bike and swimming and just running around. So I have very vivid memories, and they're some of my best childhood memories of being able to have the freedom to get on my bike and come back when it was dark or before it was dark. I have memories of like riding. So far. I knew I'd get in trouble if I if I told so that's why I say hybrid like that tail and like I still had a little freedom but there was maybe more. Not the full latchkey experience. But we would ride our bikes really far to like creeks and we there was a rope swing that was probably 10 years old. And we'd be like, well, let's just jump into this disgusting water and get scraped by fix. But it was sort of you know, that like feeling like you're being in nature and you have the freedom to explore as a child

Alison Cebulla 18:41

probably sounds awesome. In that way,

Anne Sherry 18:44

and those were even even with the latchkey experience, I do still see that as a gift. You know, yes, there was neglect, but that freedom that getting lost in the woods. Anyway, so yeah, well, I appreciate hearing that.

Ariana Gibson 19:02

I think, um, you know, part of my latchkey experience or where that was two is connected to like, socio economic status. So when we came to the States, my mom's father helped us get a house that we could live in. So it wasn't an apartment. And I think that's something I didn't realize was such a luxury as a child to have a home that was like just us in the home and no shared walls. But we had government support, where we got free government lunches in elementary school, and we were on food stamps for a little bit. And so I think that when people are in that situation, the parents are working really hard. And it's not sometimes it's not a choice to be that sort of like free spirited or, you know, sort of further end of the extreme negative. Sometimes it's just, it's required by the schedule that you keep. And so my mom was working full time and it just sort of left a lot of freedom for us. And I think we were pretty good kids. So I have one older sister, she's 18 months older. And I think because we were well behaved we probably I got left at home alone earlier than maybe other children would. And we had some fun.

Alison Cebulla 20:06

So Ariana, did you have any, any particular recipes that you would make when it was just you? And siblings?

Ariana Gibson 20:15

So I had one older sister, right? Yeah, one older sister. And we were, I mean, so close in age it felt, you know, like, she always acted older and always had the advice for me as this you know, as if she had lived a decade longer than I hadn't had sage advice, but it was 18 months I adore her. So that's not a diss just reality. But it's interesting because every time I was sick, what I wanted was toast with peanut butter, which is a very easy thing to make. Cinnamon Toast was also a big one on the list. Cereal. We knew it too. Yeah, it's delicious syrup to go to. But then what I will say is my mom grew up with people who cooked and then when she lived in Costa Rica, my my dad's mom taught her a lot. And so there was usually stuff there. Like, one of the things I loved eating was just beans with cheese. And so like we had beans, always I think it just feels like my memories that we did. But to my mom, even when we were like pretty broke, she would make like there was one meal I remember she made that I loved and as an adult, I was like, what was that meal that you made? And she was like, can have creamy cream of mushroom soup. can of tuna. And it was overpriced. And I was like, Is that really what it was? That she would like? Added some onion or like, you know, do some things so like, Joanna that's yeah, I feel like it was in the

Anne Sherry 21:30

cookbook.

Ariana Gibson 21:35

That's the recipe you shared. She's actually like a great cook. She's like

Alison Cebulla 21:40

Oh my god, your mom goes to Burning Man. She

Ariana Gibson 21:43

has been 10 times and then oh, I'm lately but she was one of the wild ones who did that like DIY Burning Man last year, so she is living her best life.

Anne Sherry 21:58

I want your mom's life. Yeah. Put us in touch.

Ariana Gibson 22:03

California. Yes, I'm sure.

Anne Sherry 22:06

I'm in North Carolina, but I live in California.

Alison Cebulla 22:09

Yeah. I feel like because I was born in 1984 I feel like cereal was just so such a 90s just I mean going to the grocery store and there was just like a whole I'll have basically sugar in a box, though. Yeah, like I still just have memories as a child just like looking because we ate pretty healthy but but my parents would let us get whatever cereal we wanted. And you just staring at every cereal being like we could have any one

Ariana Gibson 22:41

world is our oyster story about the best thing that ever happened to me in childhood related to food food. Yes, yes. I went to the grocery store. probably hadn't house and a stranger approached me which normally that story has a bad ending. But do you want to be part of a taste test? And I was like, Yes, I do. Please sign me up. I love I always have I love to eat I'm just never gonna be one of those people who like can count calories or die very well. And he said we're testing a new cereal and then he of course my mom was like, what's the deal? And he said we're testing new cereal you get to take it home you give your feedback. So it was just a plain white box. And literally no branding whatsoever. And do you know what it was?

Anne Sherry 23:25

What was it Captain Crunch?

Ariana Gibson 23:27

French Toast Crunch by the

Alison Cebulla 23:32

I loved that.

Anne Sherry 23:35

It was name is circles

Alison Cebulla 23:45

I can still taste French because French like I exam

Anne Sherry 23:47

my mouth waters every time I speak of these things. Yeah, yeah. What did

Alison Cebulla 23:52

you have any other favorites? Like top top three favorite cereals growing up?

Ariana Gibson 23:57

So definitely Cinnamon Toast Crunch was the same on the list. I had a phase with Lucky Charms Okay, same okay I did from that. I was I mean there's jokes about it like in cartoons and it's like pop culture but like I loved captain crunch but it cut the roof of my mouth like I was

Alison Cebulla 24:15

just about to I was just about I was just you almost

Anne Sherry 24:17

need to invent like a guard like a roof guard for Captain Crunch guard. Yeah, yeah, they had the thing with Lucky Charms or any of those having old an older brother who we might get into a little bit but he would fucking strip mine that stuff. So you'd be like yes, because we get one box of cereal to share between the three of us and you would be like it's my turn for the cereal like you had to like you know, he got to go first and then secretly he would strip mine it like take all the marshmallows out of the Lucky Charms. And then it was my turn for the cereal and it was all just the the no marshmallows and it was like I still have some feelings about that. I wouldn't have to kill

Alison Cebulla 24:58

I Really? Okay.

Anne Sherry 25:03

Believe me, I have worked on this type. Those types of memories in therapy. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Alison Cebulla 25:08

All right. Uh, do you remember when they turned candies into cereals? They had Oreo O's. That was amazing. Also strip the roof of your mouth. Those are not my top three rematch cups. I was just about to say. So that's my next one of my top three reasons. Cereal.

Ariana Gibson 25:27

But the only film in your mouth. Like, taste it?

Alison Cebulla 25:31

I can. Yes. So any good cereal we just

Anne Sherry 25:36

got, we just got I was trying to be a good what a good parent, whatever. And like, I got August kicks, you know, I was like, I remember this kind of like, you know, whatever approved. Yes, but you know what you? Yes, but it had I thought I had COVID that shit has no taste I like was like, let me just try this. I was like COVID. Like, there's Triet there is no

Ariana Gibson 25:59

taste. And now that you say that I'm like, I feel like towards the end. I was like I'm putting sugar on this. Like,

Anne Sherry 26:05

this is Oh, and the sugar at the end of the milk. Like if like we had only cornflakes. And then we would dump and then that at the end.

Ariana Gibson 26:14

Then you just put chocolate milk Fruity Pebbles.

Anne Sherry 26:16

Oh, man. The color on that too is like red dye. It was like do I have ADHD or too much red dye? I do not know. Okay, so my

Alison Cebulla 26:25

actual favorite childhood set of memories it was an era was when computers entered households. We got a computer when I was in seventh grade. And at the same time, our town got to Trader Joe's. And so my parents were divorced and on Fridays, my dad was the one who was actually excited to see us no offense, mom. She just wasn't that stoked. But so on Fridays, my dad was the one who would come pick us up from after school program. And he would come get us. And if he was in a good mood, like if he got paid that week or whatever. Oh, he would drive up to San Luis Obispo. We would go to Trader Joe's it was the best thing that ever happened as they had all those granolas that were like healthy but they were still just as bad as Yeah. And then we would go shopping I still remember they had these little fruit snacks also just straight straight up sugar everything was like sugar but it was like had branding that made you think it was healthy pictures of fresh fruit

Ariana Gibson 27:21

on it. Yeah. Why plucking a coconut from

Alison Cebulla 27:27

then there was a game lately or next to the Trader Joe's. And if he was in a really good mood, we could go to the computer game store and pick out a computer game. This was the best

Anne Sherry 27:40

call peak experience it never got that done. It never

Alison Cebulla 27:43

ever ever.

Anne Sherry 27:46

Compare to that it is this downhill

Alison Cebulla 27:48

eighth and ninth grade basically the ninth grade it never it just was it was all downhill from there. Do you guys ever think this? I was never smarter than when I was like 1415 my brain has never worked that well. Again, it's a good thing they make us take like the SCT is that the one college like at that age? I can't take a test now. It's too hard. I never

Anne Sherry 28:11

said I'm super clear. Like, if you're pretty good in school, but you can't break 1000 on the LSAT. I'm like, let's like, look at does it start having neglect? You know, you have ADHD, you know, still looking for a reason. Like why couldn't I break? 1000? Probably because I didn't read. I don't know. Still got it. You could get into school in my era. You could still get into a good school though. Like, yeah, oh, right. Right. Right. Right.

Alison Cebulla 28:40

That's different. I

Anne Sherry 28:41

was born in 68 Ariana, I'm firmly Gen X latchkey. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 28:48

So okay, so Ariana, we heard that there was divorce. So that's an that's you? We got one adverse childhood experience there, you know, but what was what was emotional homelife was there were, were you being seen? Were you being heard?

Ariana Gibson 29:03

You know, it's interesting, because I'll talk with my sister and she's like, that's not how it was. And and so you look back and you go, are my memories wrong? Or are her memories wrong?

Alison Cebulla 29:12

All of them are wrong. All of them. We look, they're all wrong. Yeah.

Ariana Gibson 29:18

It's just you know what I remember. But I like love human beings. And I see the best in everyone. And I've always been that person. And so I think sometimes when I look back on childhood, like there's certain things that I remember like I have a vivid memory of my mom crying, saying that she was like we're going to lose the house and how are we going to pay our bills? And so when I think to like my my desire to make money it I've never let money be the guide in personal romantic choices in partnering in Job paths that I chose Sure thing kind of moneymakers. Like, my spirit wants something more than that. But at the same time, I have a focus on making money and a fear of not Having said that, I think only people who have gone without understand, because you know how that can be. And so when you think about like mental health and trauma and things like that, I love that people are having more conversations about PTSD and understanding big T's and little T's when it comes to trauma. Because it's so easy for people who have not been exposed to a lot to hear trauma and think war or think, yeah, sexual assault or something that that anyone in there would sort of universally everyone would agree is a trauma. But I think there are little moments, these little T's that sort of shape our perspective. So I can think back to that and go, I know I am the way I am about not wanting to spend even with the startup that I have. One of my advisors the other day said, you do have to spend the money. Because I just have this like fear of don't let it go too soon. And don't don't not work way, way, way, way, way ahead to make sure that that money doesn't run out whether it's for a company or myself, so I think I can look at something like that. No, that was a stress I was carrying that. Not everyone I was around carried and my husband was in a far worse situation. So I think it's also good that you know, he and I are coupled in this life because I have exposure to if I ever want to feel sorry for myself, he's very good at being about like, do not compare, like your Pain is pain and my Pain is pain. And it doesn't mean that just because you know mine was you know something from the worst episode you've ever seen of law and order. He doesn't say that I do I reference that show. Yeah. I one of those weird people I'm but there's so many of us were like,

Anne Sherry 31:29

my whole pregnancy, I watched SVU. Like, I was like, I watched er riding my Yeah, my stationary bike. And I was like, I'm doing so good for my kid. And but I'm watching like the worst things that could happen. And I was like, your price associated? Oh, yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah.

Ariana Gibson 31:48

But yeah, I think that there were some little traumas that I felt. And then I think the other thing is like the environment that you're in. So I, at 1110, or 11, got a scholarship to a private and like college prep Middle School in high school. And the people who went to school there had like, I mean, the richest people in Kansas City went to this school. And so when you are the you're with the haves, and you are a have not that also creates this sense of othering, and you're trying to figure it out, I also spent time in middle school and had some pretty horrific bullying stories. So what I'll say is that there was some stuff that was not a product of the behavior of any like parental figure or guardian. But I certainly had the trauma of sort of financially not being comfortable. And then the trauma of really wanting a dad and not only not having him in my life and my sort of day to day, but psychologically, because he has schizophrenia and not having him be able to show up in the way that I wanted. And I often talk a lot about how people form their opinions on things. This isn't my idea. I'm just saying I support this line of thinking that we form our opinions on things on the lived experience we've had and the stories we consume. And when you think back to the 80s and 90s, the number of stories being told was fewer the number of networks was fewer, they were mostly controlled by white males that were in a series of generational wealth. That's

Anne Sherry 33:11

a great point. Yeah. So

Ariana Gibson 33:13

I thought dads were the dads that I saw in movies. And so I it took me probably until college when you get those, you know moments where you're with a friend staying up late and not, you know, inebriated in any way just like wanting to explore life as a young adult mind where you're just what is the meaning of this all and I had a couple of people really helped me understand like, it is not as rosy as you think it is. Like there are so many people who have like a friend whose boyfriend's mom, you know, he lived with her his whole childhood till college and she was bipolar. And they were figuring it out. So his he had a ton of trauma from that. She's like, well, at least you know, if your dad had stuff he was going through, he was in another country, but at the same time, like, there was no Skype or face FaceTime. So I couldn't talk to you. And we were very poor. So a long distance phone call to Costa Rica was incredibly expensive. It happened like once a month, maybe it was a very time limited, like get your love in, because we got to go. And then he would send letters there were you remember those international letters with the red and blue? Yeah, like around

Anne Sherry 34:14

the paper? Yeah. And it was and it was like you opened the envelope was the letter to write or sometimes?

Ariana Gibson 34:22

Yeah, these ones have like paper inside but it was international mail had yesterday envelope. And so I knew it was a letter from him. But most of the time we didn't get to hear what was in it because he was struggling and was unmedicated and and that's a long story too that I can share or not but I you know you're craving that thing that you see examples of in you know, in the nice dads of your friend group, and the loving ones or the TV dads that are just so great. And if you're young, you're not watching the more adult content that's has nuanced characters. swith you know, flawed heroes. You're mostly watching fairy tales. And so I thought there's this thing that everyone gets that has a dad and I don't get that and it was a really lonely feeling but not his fault and not really anyone's fault just

Alison Cebulla 35:13

that night hard I drew films are so damaging, like, I look back on like Disney films, and I'm like, Who approved these? Who said that these were okay.

Ariana Gibson 35:22

And were Latina. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're there. And I was one and I was a lot of you know, little girls are small unless they're not.

Alison Cebulla 35:35

Yeah, the brain the brainwashing on every level. Yeah. Like all the heroes are white is for sure. A huge one. But then this thing where it's like, girls just grow up to figure out who they marry is so freakin damaging. Right?

Anne Sherry 35:54

Yes, that's it. Yeah. And the to like, go back to the 70 even less television I think which but where there's nobody home and I've shared this before, but we're watching Leave It to Beaver. Like these I don't even like the Partridge Family. You know, everything worked out all the time. With Did you ever watch The Partridge Family? They it was she was single bombing. But they were like, I don't know, going around and singing songs. And it was everything always worked out. And they were always together. And it was like, you just turn around and you'd be like, there's no one here. But you know what? Libre lady was like, you know, had dinner ready, and they all ate together. And these lovely conversations and calculators just figure out? Yeah, yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 36:42

damaging. It's so

Anne Sherry 36:44

important. I mean, when I look now, the amount of diversity that you see, you know, just in everyday commercials, it's so regular to have same sex couples or adopted children or kids in a wheelchair

Alison Cebulla 37:01

progress. Yeah, it is made. Yeah. Yes. That's one of the reasons or you know that you decided to do filmmaking at all, I think, subconsciously, yes.

Ariana Gibson 37:11

So I watched a TED talk that I feel like shook me to my core. And it was from probably 2010, or 2011. And it's called The Danger of a Single Story.

Alison Cebulla 37:21

Oh, I love that one. I love that one. It's one of my favorites. Yes. Yeah. Probably my favorite TED talk.

Ariana Gibson 37:27

Yeah. And I mean, it's a powerful testimony to the to the power of story. And we all know that story is powerful, because it's existed since the beginning of humanity. And it's sort of you know, how we taught each other lessons. And I won't go on and on, because everyone's heard this a million times before. But what I knew was that I loved to write. So I went to writing competition in like fifth grade, and I got a $50 savings bond from the Daughters of the American Revolution, and went to a

Alison Cebulla 37:54

vote conservative.

Ariana Gibson 37:56

And it was, it was like, a public school like writing contest, and I wrote wrote something about John Smith. And I won. And so I got to go, you know, get $50 That was pretty cool. Yeah. And I think I'd maybe read my paper in these, you know, women sat in a nice house, and I read my paper. I don't know, is it an interesting life experience, but I love stories from as early as I can remember, I loved reading. I read early, my son's doing it too, which is very cool. So I think that was always a piece of it. But back to this, like, I need to make money. I did well in school, and I worked hard. And I decided I was going to be pre med and so I that was like the sort of clear path, right? Like, if you do steps one through 57, the end result is that you become a doctor assuming you do them successfully. Not that it's not a ton of work, but it was like, if you complete the steps, you get to have the career and and I got into the first year of pre med was like, oh, no, this is not. And I loved certain sciences like biology. I loved I thought it was so interesting. But like organic chemistry and physics and things that I had to take and had to be good at and understand and it didn't come naturally I thought this is a struggle. And if this is how it's going to feel for the next decade of my life, I'm not going to enjoy the next decade of my life. So I think that I've also always had a bit of that. You know, some people work really hard so that they can just enjoy it later. Because they've saved and they didn't take the vacation. They didn't I'm not that person. I'm like knows what's right, because everyone has their path. But for me, I've enjoyed it. But I, my senior year did a documentary as my thesis project. So I switched my major from biology and pre med program to a film major and a history minor. to the dismay of probably everyone who was really excited for me to be Dr. Vargas. Yeah. And it was great. I mean, I loved my from my first intro to film class, I was like, this is incredible. And I don't think that I understood the depth of how much telling an excellent story can change people's behavior. So there are a lot of people now who are in neuroscientists who will talk about data doesn't change behavior stories do. Emotion does. And so yeah, exactly exactly. Like people want to feel. It's just human nature. And so I, you know, I liked public speaking, and I was naturally pretty good at that. And that's really storytelling. And then like the ability to talk in front of you, but not have

Alison Cebulla 40:19

someone who wants to feel.

Anne Sherry 40:21

Yeah, well, that guy. I've been reading some stuff. Yes, you can't. We've talked about why it's hard to care, you know. And so Allison and I have bonded a little bit on like, we hate people, I think, because you can't feel we're doing better and better at this. But like, not being able to feel that nothing is real. And you know, I've read this wonderful book called warmth by Daniel Cheryl about climate. And he's writing a book to his, his child that he doesn't have, he may or may not have, but he's a climate activist, most beautiful book in the world. But he he's like you, if you can't feel it, the climate crisis is not real. So this ability to grieve, you have to grieve and do activism. It can't be one or the other. You know, if you just grieve and you have no, yeah, but it comes from the emotion and making it real. And that's what therapy is. And I talked

Alison Cebulla 41:11

to Danielle about that, too, when we interviewed her about historical racism in the United States, is that I couldn't feel other people's suffering until I felt my own. Yeah. And so my therapy journey was also the awakening of my heart for the suffering, if you just kick out, there's a whole way of going through life where suffering isn't real. And that's that's right. I mean, that's to me what Republicans are doing. And I say that because most of my extended family are Republicans, none of them have done their healing work. My mom always says, Republicans or people haven't gone to therapy yet. And, and she's so right. She's so Right. Like, if you're not doing your own healing work, where you're saying, How can I make it safe to feel suffering doesn't exist, it doesn't exist? And then that's where you could look at someone and say, Well, why can't you just get a job? You know, because just like the feeling side does, it doesn't exist?

Ariana Gibson 42:04

Well, and I think it doesn't exist for a lot of people and a lot of people who are like our age and older, like if you say, starting with born in the 80s and older, because it wasn't allowed to because people are terrified of mental illness. And because showing vulnerability was weakness, especially for men, especially for Latin men, especially for black men. I've interviewed so many people with sigma that the cup, not that they have sigma, but the company stigma. Yeah, I've interviewed so many people who have talked about the religious or cultural environment they were raised in. That just said, there, there is no room for feelings here. And what happens in the house stays in the house. And this is a family affair or read, like read your gospel and do your prayers, because that's what it's about. And I mean, even to a degree in Costa Rica, my family there, my family's very Catholic there. My grandmother is just I mean, she has passed, but I I love her so much. And she just emanated love for everyone in that family. And she was dealing with a lot of stuff. I won't go into detail, but a lot and she just was nothing but love for everyone around her always. And I have a son with a disability and Tita Florida, was her name, had a son with a serious mental illness, and I so wished that she was still alive, so I could talk to her about it. But I know even she, you know, and I have a cousin who still lives in Costa Rica. And he said to me, and I talked about how I wanted to move to Costa Rica, my husband and I had like the school picked out and I was like, I'm a citizen, let's do this, I can work from there like you can to this is gonna be great. And when river got his diagnosis, we thought, well, actually, maybe now we can't, because these few first five years are so formative in brain development for every human. But when you have developmental delays, you need to kind of put in the work to try and learn that stuff and be focused and practice it every day. And my cousin said to me, I don't don't go there, because people are still so narrow minded about autism, and they'll they'll judge him and he'll feel others. And I think in some of the expat areas of Costa Rica, where you have a lot of people who are just international residents who want to be there for a reason and you're on the beaches, and it's life is like vacation. It might be a little bit different. But I think about Tita and I know that she couldn't talk a lot about my dad and what he was going through, he wasn't shut away. And I think there's also a ton of a ton to talk about. And in the idea of the degree to which we we create environments for people who are neurodivergent, or for people who have serious mental illness to feel accepted. The more you create those spaces, the more robust life they have, and the better they do because they have more social connection and even the sort of acquaintance version like I'm reading killing this book by Dr. Tom Insell. And what he talks about is that loneliness and the ability to feel connected is not only the deep, deep connections, you have with that first inner circle. It's also the person you see at the grocery store once a week, who remembers who you are, and you give each other annoying Hello. And there's not a lot of depth, but you have these people that help you feel connected to the world around you. And when I interview people about autism, they often say when I'm going through an autistic meltdown, it's very hard for me to connect with the world around me. So when you think about that being the thing that makes someone feel good and feel seen. When you're struggling and you're going through a trauma response, you're feeling triggered you have I have panic attacks and anxiety disorder, when I'm having a panic attack, and I cannot connect it, it feels bad for me. But in a world decades ago, where people looked at you like there was something very wrong with you. Of course, you didn't feel like you could be open about that. So then you're hiding it. So I think you know that that the YouTubes say, I felt like I couldn't feel like No wonder I think you just had to have the right sort of people early in your childhood, who were like feel it all or naturally, some people are just more like, there's that analogy of the lobster and like, you know, your shell gets too tight, and you have to break out of it. And it's scary, because you're just so exposed, and you're soft and fleshy. And you're looking for a new shell, that action. You have, I wrote a blog post called I Am a lobster. Because I worked for a company once where the person who owned the company was really bad person. And I didn't know until I got further into it. It was a small company.

Alison Cebulla 46:25

It's hard to tell at first, it's so hard to tell them tell you get to know him. Yeah,

Ariana Gibson 46:29

yeah. And I called him out on some stuff. And he decided he was just going to, I said, I don't know if it's going to work out. I think like we should part ways and No, no, no, please stay. And then the next day, kind of like unceremoniously fired me so that like he could break up with me. I mean, it was just the silliest, most emotionally immature thing in the world. Yeah, I've been vindicated, because a lot of people came forward, like years later being like, oh, was this person, a monster to everyone and a total sexist, and everyone's like, yes, this person was. But the point of all of that is that I wrote a blog post on Medium posts that it's called, I'm a lobster, and I found a picture of a lobster like raising, like one o'clock. But I think it's important to like to, to make the choice in this life to be a lobster without a shell, like, I can't change who I that is who I am, I feel everything a lot, I cry a lot. And I've been able to find a path in this world to, to use that to create something like really new that is really speaking to people. And so I think we just, we have to work on ourselves. But we also have to accept who we are, and say, how can that? How can who I am that's different in these ways. And yes, some of these are disadvantages and weaknesses. How can I use that to my advantage, and I think having a son who lives with autism, you know, he just turned four a few days ago. So he's still very young. But I think I'm exactly the person to raise them. And I'm excited to help him see the ways in which what what he has going on in this world that's different, and often othered by other people that you know, teach him to embrace it and not not do the superpower thing. Because I think that it's too easy to sugarcoat challenges. It's to glorify disability and be like, Look how amazing this is. That's right. And that's unfair to the people who are navigating those experiences. So with with stigma app, and with our content, I say I promise the content will always be hopeful, but honest, because for me to pretend like having a schizophrenic father was like, you know, I learned so much from it. I did, yes. But I also cried a lot.

Alison Cebulla 48:31

Totally. I'm so glad you're doing that. Could you explain to our listeners what your stigma? Company is?

Ariana Gibson 48:37

Yeah. So the I'll tell the short version. So you heard kind of the backstory of me, I decided to study film that I took jobs doing other things, because filmmakers, especially documentary filmmakers, don't make any money. And very few, you know, we're like, wow, I make so much. Right. I love doing it. So I kind of always did it on the side. And in 2019, my best friend was diagnosed with a rare and aggressive cancer, and it came out of nowhere. And she wasn't expecting it. It was just one of those things that like you were face to face with your mortality or the mortality of someone who love by December of 2019. She was diagnosed in June, nothing was working. And she was like, you know, felt safe enough with me to have a conversation for the first time about not surviving. And I had this Airbnb that I got for us to work and I took a picture of where we sat on that couch because I remember thinking in the moment, like, I know what's coming, and it was brutal. But for whatever reason, I wanted to like remember it. And of the many things we talked about one of the things she said was like she was just so bummed to not get to live anymore. Like she like climbed mountains and kayak and move to California and we lived in Austin together and she went all of the places and everyone who met her loved her everyone in the world called her a light in this world like just one of those people But who like makes makes everything brighter around her? When you lose those people? I think it's just it's it's hard to lose anyone but losing those people just affects it has such a big ripple effect. Yeah. So she said, just you know, don't wait to live the life you want to live, but I don't remember if it was as dramatic as like, promise me you won't, it feels like it was but I don't know, that's again, maybe me like misremembering. But it's such such a simple thing. But like when you don't have the right context, and that's to the feeling point, the environment if the environment doesn't support you being emotional. And I'm grateful to her for that conversation. We like hugged and cried, and it was so hard, but we didn't have to pretend like we didn't have to pretend like it anymore, like that release of not having to pretend that that it was gonna get better, and be able to like maximize what we had left.

So I talked about her and every pitch I've ever done for my company. And I tell people like there is a place for emotion and tears in business, no matter your gender identity, or race or whatever it might be. Because I've raised a lot of money for stigma. And I've cried in every pitch I've ever done. So I doing this makes me feel like I get to stay like I get to bring her with me. It also reminds me like why I'm doing it. So thanks for giving me the space and making me feel good to share. But that did not set me on a path of like build an app called stigma. It was just you know, you want to be a documentary filmmaker, like you know, what's what you want. Just keep doing that. And I had a full time job at that point at a tech startup I really liked I had a good job it paid well, I had a wonderful team. But I wasn't feeling fulfilled because because of a lot of things. And so I said to my husband husband had spoken at a conference, or sorry, spoken at a school about overcoming adversity. So I won't tell the long story. People can watch it and if they want to, and that's actually an abridged version. It's a short film. But he had a very difficult childhood. He was an orphan. He was born into the projects at Philly, in the NICU for months because he was born addicted to a lot of hard drugs. abused, no hard in all of the homes he was in he was in 10 different homes, not all of them foster homes. But 10 different times of this is your new home. These are your new siblings, nevermind, we're leaving your bags on the front doorstep and a social workers there. So a tremendous amount of trauma. And he was never adopted. I hate that. He was taken in by a family who was terrible. And he didn't know until I met him. And he was 30 when we met and I met them and thought, how does he not understand this is not okay. And so it's a complex story. But he also had made it on the World Team for Greco Roman wrestling, and he got to travel the world and compete in these things. And he lost his spot and in the Olympic year. So the world team is the Olympic team and non Olympic years. Okay, he lost his spot in 2008. And so he was an alternate at the Beijing game. So it's like this thing that he had worked towards forever. And there's stories of him like, you know, caring so much about wrestling. And as foster parents never showed up to me, like one meet once and then never came again. It was his passion and all this stuff. So tons and tons of trauma. And he got an opportunity through this organization called World Sports Chicago to speak at an inner city school and that inner city, just like a high need school in Chicago, and he was supposed to talk about overcoming adversity, because I'm gonna talk about how he didn't make the Olympics and how I went back to the trials. And I broke my back, which happened, like he has this wild story. And I said, Are you going to talk about like, your childhood or foster care, like, abuse? And he was like, no, because he was just starting to open up about his trauma, like he had not done the work. And I, you know, kind of convinced him with the line of like, if there, if there is a child right now, who was experiencing in their home, what you were going through, and they get to see you a grown man who is handsome and has a job and a family and these things that like so often when you're struggling as a kid and being neglected you don't think are possible for you and like, like, what would it have meant to you? So he was like, Okay. And he wanted to do more, but he was like, I don't know how to do that. And I was like, Well, if you give people like a little sample video of you like I recorded him at that event, and I said, but let's do an interview with you to like, talk about your story a little bit so that people would understand what they're getting, if they say you can come speak to kids at their school. And so that was sort of that decision that like around Christmas, I said to him, your Christmas present is going to be this I have a creative partner named Sean Robert Kelly. He's a fantastic DP but we started working together when he was like a grip on sets. And I was barely a director. And just like, you know, learning the ropes together, kind of and have like grown in our craft together, which is very cool. And he's also a very close friend. And I said, Hey, like, this is gonna be the worst paying job you've ever had. But can we do this thing? So the film that you referenced, that's on Amazon, we shot that in one day? So we One day, I did a lot of planning.

Anne Sherry 55:05

And it was actually everybody have tissues with you, because it will get you it is a strong

Ariana Gibson 55:11

name. But it we I interviewed John and then we had you know, we plan B roll shoots and he was doing jujitsu and he had participated in a jujitsu competition called Tap cancer out and he like, competed in Laurens honor. And we got patches made, it was a very, it's just the whole thing was a lovely experience. But I got him to open up. And so I'm editing what this thing is. And I'm gonna take one moment to go back in time, but I promise it will be short, which is just to say that in 2011, I was trying to figure out what I wanted in life, I think it was like 26, or 27. And I just didn't know. And I kind of did that exercise of what do I love to do? And I wish I had done the purpose exercise, which is the four circles of what do I love to do? What am I naturally good at? What can I get paid for? And what does the world need? And at the center of those circles is your purpose. I think so often we graduate more like do that. Now, I know, like work. It's like it should be required to graduate from high school 100%. But you just look at it and you go well, like what do I know how to do and who's paying people to do that thing. And that is a vocation that's not, you know, then it gives you like the outside circle. So it's like vocation profession. I don't remember all of the other ones. But I know purpose is in the middle. And so I hadn't done that exercise. But it's like, what do I love to do? I love talking to people who love making people feel seen. I love to travel, and I love making movies. And so in that sort of brainstorm that I had, I was like, I want to do it. A Docu series called stigma and in 2011 Docu series were not as popular as they are now it was like they were maybe on Netflix. But like no one else was really like hurray documentaries. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 56:46

years ago. Yeah, a while ago. So

Ariana Gibson 56:49

I was like an every episode will feature a different person navigating a different mental illness. And of course, I'm thinking about my dad the whole time. In college, my senior thesis project was a documentary about a different family whose son had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. It was a cathartic exercise, for sure. But I think that was kind of the first time I was contributing stories to the public conversation, but I definitely didn't see it that way. And that doesn't exist anywhere someone could see. So it's not actually public conversation, but like, in the circle I was in. So 2011, I have this idea. I often tell like, if I get to speak to young people, I'm like, there's a lot that's important. And like take this with a grain of salt. I'm one person, but find a partner who helps you build your dreams who's excited for you when you get closer to reaching them, and you do the same for them? Because there are a lot of reasons someone can pick someone to partner up with. But John has always been wonderful at that really celebrating my accomplishments and you know, calling me a director before I was comfortable doing it and the imposter syndrome stuff of like, can I say I'm a creator, you're talking

Anne Sherry 57:45

about me and Alison, that's happening Alison, with this podcast are supporting each other.

Alison Cebulla 57:53

That's great. Yeah, with people. Yeah, yeah. Creative. Yeah.

Ariana Gibson 58:00

You have to start somewhere. They say if you if you weren't embarrassed of the first product, you ship you started too late. So like, everyone, everyone is bad at things in the beginning. And I'm not saying you are but I'm saying like, ages where you're like,

Anne Sherry 58:13

episode one. Oh, we're back to the quote. He's like, if it's worth doing it's worth doing badly. Yeah. I don't know where that came from. But it's a wonderful. Yeah. Well,

Ariana Gibson 58:26

no one picks up the violin and is awesome at it. The first time they try

Alison Cebulla 58:31

to teach violin and teaching violin actually made me stop playing violin. That's how bad beginners aren't violent.

Ariana Gibson 58:39

Like if you're if you're afraid to be bad, you never you never get to do anything. Right. I think I think there's so many people in this world that look at like the polished filtered world of Instagram or all this version of reality. That's not true. And think, Well, I'm not that so I can't compete and then they don't even start and so they you know,

Alison Cebulla 58:58

absolutely.

Anne Sherry 59:00

Can I tell her a little Flashdance story? Like I read this, like, Does everybody remember the flash dance scene? Right where she's like, going through the whatever. Okay. That is what

Alison Cebulla 59:11

is Flashdance? I'm so sorry.

Anne Sherry 59:13

I listen. Really? I were to like, the date that okay, so movies to movie it's a movie I read the AQ? Oh, yes. I don't know how, anyways, that five actors that that EP that scene where she comes in. And then she does the dance thing. And she pulls the water on it. I mean, just this amazing dance. And it looks like it's one actor, but it's five actors create this one scene. And so it's it was it was sort of for like women in general. Like you're supposed to be everything to everybody was that but it's sort of that piece, you know, like we look at that Polish thing. It took five like that one polish scene. So just throwing that out there.

Ariana Gibson 59:57

I love that. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I think also in a world where like, we can edit things. And so there's UK for good or bad and I think, yeah, no, no, go for it. I mostly say I saw something on LinkedIn this morning about how Ogilvy has decided that they're not going to use any influencers on social media who use filters. And so people are talking about this all all over the place. And I don't really have a dog in the fight overall, but it's, it's at least I remember in the 90s, or like, maybe early 2000s, and they were like, everyone is photoshopped and airbrushed, airbrushed was the thing. covers, and then these women would take a stand, and they would have to like fight to have the wrinkles shown. But this to me goes back to the danger of a single story and Chimamanda Adichie, and the person who controls the stories being told how often they're told it to whom they're being told, has a tremendous amount of power. With the magazine company, or the publishing company gets to make the decision of do we show Ariana is gray hairs are not, then they have the power. And they are creating what that and that was a huge part of my motivation and creating stigma app was I knew it was going to be a media company and a mental health app. You need both. Yeah. Because to the point one of you made earlier and I'm sorry that I don't remember who said it. Action, hope it was me. It was probably it was probably

Alison Cebulla 1:01:19

up take the credit for it.

Anne Sherry 1:01:21

I just Yes. It's just that way. Yeah. Okay. I just said it out loud.

Ariana Gibson 1:01:25

Yeah. But like, change doesn't happen without action. Nothing happens without action. And so what what I believe is that there are beautiful stories being told right now. And people are inspired. Like, I think Kota is a perfect example. Right? So it's a beautiful movie that Apple TV produced that won Academy Awards. But why wasn't there a place for people to go to take action to help hard of hearing people? What if they don't have that? Right? What if they have done that? So there's this beautiful app called Be My Eyes? I don't know if either of you are members of it. But it was created by a nonprofit organization, and they've now started to partner with corporations. They're growing, but I think they launched in. I don't I'm gonna misquote 2012 2014. I heard about it and maybe 28 team, and the only thing the app does is connect people who have who are visually impaired with people who are not. So you will get a call that says someone who is visually impaired could use your support. And you answer the call My goodness. And I've helped people like they'll say, can you tell me when my oven dial is at 450? They turn I go you're there? Oh, go back a little bit. Okay, thanks. And it's done. That's it. i And it's I once had to help a guy connect his cable that was really really hard. It took so long and I was like, I'm not giving up so we did it together. Another woman another woman had a her Christmas cards. She had mixed them up. And so she was you know, it was maybe November like early December. And so I got the call and I get thrilled I get this dopamine rush when I see it to be nice,

Anne Sherry 1:02:59

that Allison antidote to us hating people.

Alison Cebulla 1:03:03

I was like, I was so we Ariana like, yeah, we keep saying like, Why can't our thing is like, why can't we care why people don't care. So I just hope that every single listener follows your work because we finally met someone. And yes,

Anne Sherry 1:03:19

sound Howard, it sounds like I totally want to carry with you. So beautiful.

Ariana Gibson 1:03:28

That like, that's what I built STED my app for stick my app is just hope on demand. So if you're struggling, you can say I need some support. And if you're having a good day, we want people to make offering hope to a stranger need as common a daily mental health practice as meditation or journaling. Imagine, imagine, before I got on this call, I was redesigning what our homepage will look like when we launched the mobile app right now. It's a web app. So you go to the stigma dot app. And then like old school version of Facebook, if you remember that where you created a profile. Ours are not public profiles, there are no comments likes up votes. There's no vanity, it is a focus on your vanity. The only thing you can do on our app is find people who have asked for a message of hope. And you can have them. They can be people who match your lived experience or not. And what's so interesting is that I thought in the beginning, my husband is a CSA, CSA survivor of child sexual abuse. And he a lot of this started with and let me go back to that. So I recorded that film. I was working on the Edit during the pandemic, Lauren's health was declining. I felt like it was like a race against time because it literally was for her to get to see this thing that I put together. And when I was finally ready to show it to John, he came in, he watched it and he goes, this is stigma. And I was deep, deep in anticipatory grief. I was scared like everyone wants from the pandemic. I was in the beginning stages of a pediatrician saying your son should be pointing he should be talking by now or babbling and it wasn't. So there's so much uncertainty in my world. And it was it was like, certainty it what he said it and I was like, oh my god it is. I didn't see it. I didn't set out to shoot that because it was going to be the proof of concept of the stigma Docu series. Yeah, but that's exactly what it was. And so when he said that I was like, I gotta level up, I gotta make this even better. And so I put in, like, a little bit of like, medical or neurological understanding of what's going on when someone with PTSD is triggered. And so I did, I studied smart people's research and just facts that exist. And I worked with an animator that is a friend of mine and said, I want to cry. I

Anne Sherry 1:05:35

love that animation piece in that film. It was cute. Yeah. Like, yeah, it was, because I've gone to workshops, after workshops, after workshops, and I'm like, I can't quite get it. I got it. When you did as trauma based therapist, I was like, right, thank you, because they make it so complicated, like a two day workshop on neuro neuro basis of trauma. And I was like, That's it. Ariana just did it like, bing bada boom,

Ariana Gibson 1:05:59

that's a nice compliment. Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that when I was like, okay, in school, and then John's hero with the angel that saved his life and changed the trajectory of his world as Miss Stockton. And so she was in her 80s. Even then, when when I made this, and I called her and I said, Can I get you to record VO for my movie? And she was like, what is that? And we I was the

Anne Sherry 1:06:24

one delivering the stuff. It's her voice. Yep. It made it work.

Ariana Gibson 1:06:31

Like meaning like it was like projector slides. And it said property of Judy Stockton sixth grade. There were like a bunch of kids in there that just brought her in. She She needs a feature film about her. Everyone in the world will fall in love with Judy Stockton, she just won't let me do it yet. She's the most humble person I've ever met. And anyway, so that we released that story. And in the story, John talks about being a CSA survivor. And it was very quick that I started getting messages from strangers. And so did he. And the message is to me, were one of three things, either, thank you for creating a platform for people to share their story. Can I share my story? Or when are you doing an episode about and then they would share something that they had been through that had affected them, you know, in a way that felt akin to what the story we were telling. John got more than 20 messages from total strangers that were men on LinkedIn messenger, Instagram, Facebook, saying, I can't believe you talked about it. And I'm paraphrasing, but it was essentially this was the message I can't believe you talked about it. No one ever talks about it straight men never talk about it. Definitely. Same thing happened to me. And I've never told anyone until now. She got hundreds of messages. But more than 20 people saying, this is the first time I'm talking about it. And so I knew right away that that was a problem that like LinkedIn messenger should not be the place the only place someone has to go to find someone who shares that thing. And so what I'll talk about is, we go into a networking event, and we have a Hello, my name is sticker. And we have the name, that label that we've that someone else chose for us that that we operate in this world, and people go okay, that's, that's who they are. But we don't have a second name tag that says, I have social anxiety. I have PTSD. And I might feel triggered by people drinking alcohol around me. I have autism and loud noises might make me struggle, or I'm not making eye contact because of that. And I'm not trying to reduce anyone's lived experience for any of those conditions to the examples I just gave, I think that's important to share. But what I will say is that, how beautiful would the world be if that happened? So have you either of you, I would love to know Have either of you ever had the experience where I'll give my example first I was once on a on a first date that was arranged by some you know, friend who was like, I think you might like this person many, many years ago. And we're sitting on the date having a drink talking. And he said, Well, I'm because my father is schizophrenic, bla bla bla. And I remember just sitting back, like wondering if I was on hidden camera like that was the feeling I had, because that doesn't happen. That open that quickly. But also, I had never in my life met another person. And I was in my mid 20s, whose father was schizophrenic, I had never met a soul. I had never had the opportunity. And so we sat and talked in there. You know, the chemistry wasn't there. But the interest in each other's lived experience was there and it was a wonderful conversation. Have either of you ever had the experience where there's something that is part of your history that's more rare, and where you serendipitously meet someone who has the same exposure?

Alison Cebulla 1:09:31

So I've never had your experience from your side because I'm always the overshare. Because I think it comes from not really struggling to feel things deeply is like, I don't know, I don't anticipate how it's gonna land. So I always say the awkward thing first, and I don't I don't even understand like, how it's gonna lay out. People are like, I can't believe you just said that. I'm like, What are you talking about? So I don't Yeah, there's something wrong My feelings were I always say, it's not always good. By the way.

Ariana Gibson 1:10:05

Don't do something wrong. It's just how you're wired.

Alison Cebulla 1:10:07

Yeah, thanks,

Anne Sherry 1:10:10

Ariana. I didn't date a lot because I got married, like and then stayed married for 15 years no offense to, but I didn't know how to not. I was like, Well, I got married. So I guess I'm in this and then proceeded to compartmentalize for 15 years and really weird. Really weird. Anyways, another episode another time. But I was just talking with a client about dating apps because I have women, mostly women that are go on dating apps, and they're just their childhoods are getting recreated again and again. And I was like we should start a dating app that's trauma informed where nobody can come into it unless they've been through like six, six trainings on how what's happening when you two are meeting Oh, dissociated. You're in a trauma state, likely social emotional, now me like yes, but I mean that because I hear again, and again, just that that one moment, and they're completely out of their minds in some ways, and then projecting and feeling projected on so anyways, I think there's room for a dating app that's trauma informed,

Alison Cebulla 1:11:13

so I guess hinge the dating apps and has just released a report that the number one thing that women are looking for in men is that they've gone to therapy.

Anne Sherry 1:11:23

Yeah, oh, that's like a first date. Therapy. They're like, Oh, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:11:29

I was like, I'm looking for someone who has been to therapy and reads books. Those were my two things.

Ariana Gibson 1:11:35

Well, I mean, super important. I don't know if either of you are watching Atlas of the heart, the Brene. Brown has not

Alison Cebulla 1:11:41

yet been around. So it's on my list. Yeah. But like

Ariana Gibson 1:11:46

high level correlation here is that the whole thing is about how we don't have the right vocabulary to express how it works. When I've interviewed like Child Trauma therapists, they talk about children in general. So like for a child, if their mental health is struggling. So I'll share one statistic, which I know doesn't change behavior. But it's important to know for people listening that 46% of people in the United States will at some point in their lives personally experienced mental illness. So people who pretend like it's just not going to touch them, and it's not in their world it is you just maybe aren't talking about it. Absolutely. If it's not new, it's in people.

Alison Cebulla 1:12:20

People don't know what the symptoms are. People don't have a mental health vocabulary. Yeah,

Ariana Gibson 1:12:24

so 50% of people who will have a mental illness in their lifetimes have felt their first symptoms by the time they're 14, not at 14, leading to an additional 25% By the time they're 24. So 75% of people who will have some form of mental illness, whether it's sort of mild or really, you know, serious mental illness. By the time you're 24, you've navigated it. And if you if my world was I had anxiety and had no idea what it was called, and no one was talking about it. And so when I had my first panic attack, I thought it was a psychotic episode. I was like, I don't know what's happening to my body. I'm like sweating and hot and I don't feel like I'm in the world that I'm in. But I know I'm in the world I'm in and it's dark everywhere around me. And this person is talking to me. And I don't know if they can tell what I'm feeling. It was just in my head panic. But no one had ever talked to me about what a panic attack was. I don't know that I even heard the word. And so what what I care about dealing with stigmas, i Our tagline is crowdsourcing hope. And so I came up with that, because the idea is when you're terrified, and most people's reaction to mental illness is fear, because we fear things we don't know. And we don't know about things we don't talk about. I was like, okay, the way that I can work on this is I'm going to create safe spaces for people to practice talking about mental health. So when you look right now, at the numbers, depending on the study, you look at anywhere from 50 to 80% of people living with mental illness, or with treatable mental illness aren't getting treatment. So it's like their children navigating it. 80% of them are not getting treatment. There are a lot of reasons why I think so many mental health apps are focused on making the experience of getting support treatment or therapy better for the people who have already raised their hands and said, I'm struggling, gone to their friend, parent, you know, who whomever it might be, depending on age, I wanted to create sort of a safe spot that would attract the people who weren't yet talking about it so they could watch stories of people who are talking about it. So I call anyone I interview for our stigma stories, a stigma hero, because it shouldn't require bravery to talk about our mental health, but in today's world, it does. It's getting better every day, but it does. But so many of those people the reason that the reactions on Tiktok and Instagram and social channels that we have are so good of like, oh my God, I've never heard anyone say what's in my head or this is me. Exactly. I didn't know anyone else felt this way. I think a lot of it has to do with the people who who sign up to come to a pop up and talk about what they're navigating, have often done some form of treatment or therapy. So someone has helped them make sense of the trauma make sense of what They're feeling some of them have a diagnosis and a label. Some of them don't. But I always ask people in our in the stigma stories that we do that are on the website, I say what is a good day look like? And what does a bad day look like? But don't just tell me what it looks like, tell me, what do you do? What do you not do? So when someone says, On a bad day, I can't get out of bed? I push them? And I say, but what does that look like? Do you actually not get out of bed? And if so, are you scrolling on your phone? are you staring at the ceiling? Are you watching TV? And then they start flushing out the story? Yeah, because there's so many people who are like, and I felt so terrible, I couldn't get out of bed. I said that. And I managed a team of seven people at a hyper growth tech startup. And it was high stress. I showed up to work every day and the number of people who say that, and so it couldn't get out of bed. And then I push them in and they say, but push gently, of course. Try and like you know, get them to open up. And when they do they say oh no, I showed up to work every day. And I did this. And I did that. And I had meetings and I did networking and I went to happy hour.

Alison Cebulla 1:15:57

Because it's like any person, like, you know what it

Ariana Gibson 1:16:00

looks like. And so they come home and I sit in the dark on my couch, just sitting in silence. And so you hear that, and I've had people say I was going through a hard time and the videos you're sharing on LinkedIn pulled me out of it. And so what we know what we know of young people is that when they need support online, there's one thing they're looking for most there was a study that asked young people 14 to 22. With depression, what are you looking for when you go online for support for your mental health? 75% of them said stories of people like me. And so I looked at what was happening with John, I looked at what I'm good at what I love to do what I can get paid for what the world needs.

Anne Sherry 1:16:34

The Venn diagram.

Ariana Gibson 1:16:38

Like that's it, like, I love people, I love people so much. And I'm a squishy lobster that's willing to be like, Hey, see my squishy like you can touch it. I think that what that does for people to say like you're safe to to tell me these things. And I promise I'm going to protect you. And that's where the beautiful thing comes with editing. Because my favorite thing to do in the world is make people really proud of how they sound or how they look. Oh, so I get to edit a story where people I've had so many people go, I cannot believe that's me. And they say it like his pride of like, I can't I can't believe I said these things. And it's they've done the work. They've either reflected whatever the work is for them. And that's the other thing we asked people in interviews, what are the tools in your toolkit because two people can be my age and you know, my race and my city and my lived experience, and have anxiety and panic attacks. And for one, it's like I need to go swimming every morning. And for the other. It's I need to do jujitsu and function some shit up folks like me. That's my husband. He loves jujitsu a big part of his routine. I

Anne Sherry 1:17:40

have a couple clients and yeah, and it is saving their lives. Yeah,

Ariana Gibson 1:17:46

like I mean, literally, John, he was being physically abused a lot in his final foster home, the one he stayed in, that he didn't really realize was so bad. And he started when he was imminent in the story. But that first weight set and working out it was when he finally got big enough that the foster father could beat him anymore to protect himself. And so I think for so many people who are victims of trauma in general, and maybe especially physical trauma, that finding an outlet that makes you feel physically strong. Something because you felt you know, anyway, so but the idea being that so we we host these mental health pop up, so I went and tried to pitch this idea. So I was like, Okay, people are responding, I need to figure out a way to like, make people feel what John's feeling because I watched my husband like in our home, I watched him get lighter from having text message asynchronous meaning like not live conversations with total strangers, and they were talking about being sexually abused as children. And it wasn't the gory details of the traumas. It was just I felt like there was no one who understood me and I felt like there was no one I could talk to. I felt like people would assume my sexuality because of what had happened to me. You know, there's, there's so much complexity. I know, you know, but I thought, well, I have to, I have to create something that facilitates that kind of connection. And so I started studying people like John Cacioppo who's like the foremost researcher on loneliness, he's since passed away. And like Vivek Murthy, the surgeon general the US who in 2017 said loneliness is an epidemic and we have to solve it and that was years before COVID. And what just what worse, but what John Cacioppo found was in his research and his work The two most powerful ways to combat loneliness were cognitive behavioral therapy, and reciprocal social connection. And what reciprocal social connection is is reciprocal matters. It's not me paying my therapist to use her degree to give me tools and tips to help that's right it's that generosity of spirit that like kindness and and that idea of just operating to make someone's day brighter because it feels good and like that's the action right so we talked I know I'm long winded, but I promise you they all wrote

Anne Sherry 1:19:54

I am I am on edge. I'm like, yes. No They're

Ariana Gibson 1:20:02

like, human nature is to get on board a trend of like, buying the Starbucks for the person behind you. That was like a thing for a long time. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:11

For you

Ariana Gibson 1:20:12

how good it feels. Oh, no, we were out of the kindness.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:17

We lose. Oh, it went, it just froze for a second. Okay. Yeah, we were at buying Starbucks. Sorry, about Yeah, that was a thing. So people

Ariana Gibson 1:20:26

people do that, because they want to feel because we are numbing ourselves often because the pain gets to be too much. And it's not that I've heard this beautiful thing by a woman who works in suicide prevention on a conference that I attended, like, virtually, that's in the UK, I'm really impressed with the UK, Australia and Canada. I think they do a better job than we do with mental health. And we should learn from

Alison Cebulla 1:20:46

them better job on a lot of things. Yes, yes.

Ariana Gibson 1:20:49

By the way, she said it was like a math problem. She said, When you get to the point where the pain your experiences, where the pain you're experiencing is greater than the tools you have to help dissipate the pain or make the pain go away. That's when people start to get into the realm of feeling suicidal. So most people who are suicidal and people who have survived attempts, we'll talk about that they didn't want to not be alive, they just couldn't take the pain anymore. That's right. And so people numb that pain. I know you both know, like substances and with you know, dangerous behavior and all of the things. But can we crowdsource hope not just by giving messages, but by giving people tools, it doesn't mean that what works like John does jujitsu. I like yoga, and spinning and walking, like things that are more peaceful. And let me get in my own head. I mean, I love a great workout. But like, I don't want to get in a fight. I do not want that. Yeah. But for him, it makes him feel like no one's gonna hurt me again. And you know what I mean, there's like a psychological connection, as there is for us to our physical activities. But what I asked people in these interviews are, what are the tools that have worked for you? And what are the tools that didn't? Because then what people can do is to the point of those people who haven't yet raised their hands were like, I'm not saying a word, nothing ever happened to me, I'm not going to Nope, that wasn't me. If I can get them to start watching stories of people who share their lived experience and on stigmas stories, now, if you go to that stigma dot app slash stories, you can filter by PTSD, by bipolar disorder, by anxiety, by Autism cool. And so the more people I talk to, the more more filters we'll get. But those are meant and designed to give people hope, just by giving them the living proof that they're not alone, just that if that's all you ever want, you know, you're not alone, because that's a real person. And like, yeah, they can talk that openly. Maybe one day I can. But on days, when you're struggling, we've had everything from I have finals coming up, and I'm a high school student, and I'm so anxious about the performance and failing and that, too, I'm feeling suicidal, and I can't tell my wife because she'll be too scared. We have the range of people for hope. And so what I want it to be as hope on demand, this idea of Did you guys hear about pep talk? The it's like a phone line that kindergarteners in California created like with help from older adults, where people could just like, oh, calling Colin and listen to a pre recorded pep talk from a kindergartener, and it was like, beautifully, I called twice. And it was like, Oh,

Alison Cebulla 1:23:18

my God, great. Forget your beautiful,

Ariana Gibson 1:23:21

little boy. connection to this lived experience before. It's in the way it makes you Yeah. And so what we're trying to do is give people a real time ability to do that, because we know that one of the biggest problems is time to treatment, it's a really long time that the average amount of time from first feeling a symptom of mental illness to first treatment is 10 years, I believe. And then once you raise your hand and you reach out, it's many months waiting list. And so we have like a care coordination partner that works specifically with high school children. And they say we're super proud of our time to treatment number, it's 16 days, and that's huge. And they said, but for those 60 days, the parent that came to us and that child are struggling, and they're scared of what happened. So what we're trying to give people as a you're not alone, sometimes it is too much to be like I'm not gonna call my friends or my family like before work when they're getting their kids ready for school, to tell them how sad I am about whatever it might be. But if you know that there is this community committed to kindness that just exists and you can go there to stigma app and say like, here's what I'm feeling we had someone yesterday who is navigating a relationship of eight years ending and the families being intertwined and, and some things that are going on and just said, you know, I need some support, and I offered a message of support and I got a so the way that it works is you offer hope, or you asked for hope you can offer hope and both of these allow you to do text, audio or video message. So you can imagine someone who like if you've never verbalized, that you were sexually abused before but you could put it in text and then get 10 videos back of men and women of different races and gender identities and oh cool tells you like totally one day be me. And the thing is people use first name, which is so beautiful. So I did an ask for hope. And I actually chose, I only want people who share my lived experience to be able to see it. And it was about grief, it was about losing Lauren. And it was more because I was just embarrassed of how much I was crying. But I hadn't used my own product yet. I was building it and designing it and all of these things and you know, shouting from the rooftops, everyone be open and talk about it. And then often find myself going like I built for me so that one day I'll actually do it. My husband was traveling and my son was taking a nap, which is rare these days, it was a weekend I had quiet, which is what I've been craving for I can't tell you how long before you're old with a difference. It's hard. And I was finally alone. And I couldn't escape the grief. And I asked Lauren to record a video for me that I could watch when I missed her before she passed away. And she did. So I watched that. And I did all the like, mantra and the stuff and I can get through this and nothing was working. And so the ask for Hope was just that, like, I know, I know, all my tools. None of them are working today. Like what are you all do when this happens. And I'm excited to get more of those because I'm gonna get I got a couple of offers of hope. But because it's limited to only people who have listed I have first a great experience with that. Not everyone sees it. But what's interesting is that I thought people would do that more often. Like I only want other CSA survivors, I only want other people with bipolar to answer this because like they get it over 80% of our members say I'll take a message of hope from anyone and go and you can just know it. And it's also helping people learn. Like when someone with bipolar is struggling, you get different inputs, different stories, more than one story of what that looks like. So then when a friend says, I just got diagnosed with bipolar disorder, you're not thinking about a character from a movie that has one lived. That's right. And of thy

Alison Cebulla 1:26:53

right, right, right, that's trauma,

Anne Sherry 1:26:55

right? Like when were people have when you're kind of processing your own trauma, it shows up as like one memory and as you work it and work it and work it then it's like the soil gets a little more stuff starts to grow you you're able to like flesh out your childhood a bit more where it's like I was never loved and I can go to that place, you know, but then I'm like, but oh, there was this or that, you know, but you've got to be with it. So it has to so even internally, it's the one story keeps you locked in this belief. I was never loved, therefore I'm unlovable, you know, so it's just, I want this, like I worked in crisis services. So people sitting in before they go to a hospital. I mean, this could be amazing in like, like, public health environments where there's never enough never enough, never enough. But if this is if you have like a ton of phones, like here, here, do this app while you wait for your appointment, they'll be like, peace out, I know it's gonna be with you, baby, or it'll de escalate or, you know, because people are going to psychiatric hospitals, because they don't

Ariana Gibson 1:28:02

have anyone to talk to.

Anne Sherry 1:28:06

The meant that we could start spending data because everybody's like, well, it's just too expensive. And it's like, this could cut like, billions off. I think we need you're right, we need to spend well, but this because you know all the unnecessary hospitalizations, lost jobs lost, you know, anyways, so is I just

Ariana Gibson 1:28:28

you saying that and I think, you know, I often make sure to say this is not a replacement for treatment or therapy. Oh, it's not, but it is an avid increases our reading rate for those things. Exactly. Non talking, but you get models everyday of people talking and you can say, Oh, now I have some of the vocabulary to express how I'm feeling that matters. And between sessions

Anne Sherry 1:28:48

people are coming in, like, you know, they're they it's okay, you know, to attach to a therapist for a while, but then it's like, gosh, if you had in between every session, you every day, you're watching, you know, you're gonna get better or feel better grow your capacity so much quicker, you know, so

Ariana Gibson 1:29:06

well. And yeah, I just I think that the the idea of the peer support matters. And the idea

Anne Sherry 1:29:12

of I was about to say that when that came in, it was revolutionary to you know, well, yeah, the model. Yeah,

Ariana Gibson 1:29:19

I, I just believe that there are a lot of people who want to do good in the world. And they're like, if you think about volunteering, like the idea of volunteering, you have to go apply somewhere and maybe do a background check and they say okay, when you do X hours every week and you need to be her on this day, and we live in a world that wants things now that wants instant gratification and wants things on demand. So I loved the idea of building this. Oh, maybe I froze again did I know okay, but I love

Anne Sherry 1:29:47

Alison ever being really still.

Ariana Gibson 1:29:51

But of being able to offer people the ability to give back on demand. So the idea being one of my investors lost his dad to cancer when he He was 13. And the idea that he could start his day every day instead of his, you know, yoga routine or alongside it, or instead of meditation or as a supplement to it, that he could say, are there other young people who have lost a parent who are struggling? Can I just give them some hope? Because we know from research that regularly engaging in altruistic behavior is good for your mental health and your physical health. So like I'm giving to you for nothing in return, I'm benefiting, you're benefiting. It's this beautiful reciprocal social connection? One of the things that's interesting, and I'd love you both of your thoughts on it is I have people now who are like, when do we get to be like, friends? When can we DM these people who send us these messages of hope. And I work with them in Chicago, the Young Center for immigrant children's rights as a volunteer child advocate. And right now I'm not doing it because I don't have the bandwidth. And it is a huge commitment. But it's lovely work. But in the training, which was very intensive as it should be, one of the things I learned was, as soon as that child is placed, you get a couple of conversations, and then you never talk to them again, and you can't give them contact info, you never talk to them again. And at first I was like, No, where do I leave, like I can't do that. Like, I want to hug them. And I want to be their friend forever. And what they said to me, which I think is so powerful is for some of these children, you will be the first and maybe only example of healthy boundaries that they've ever had. For them to get exposure to someone who came into their life to help them had the tools to help them help them for nothing. And ask nothing in return and moved on. tells them like that is a healthy kind of exchange to have with another. That's cool. They're up for that. And so I'm trying to make it not two things not codependent so that like people because imagine and you're on and I asked for hope, and then you use that brain of yours and you say all the things I need to hear. And then I'm like, and I need you again. Now suddenly, it's just teletherapy. It's me text you asking. And I want people to street I want them to Yes, yeah, boundaries to build strength to do those things. And so it's a tricky thing. Because as it exists now it's I asked for hope and you offer me hope I can send you a thank you, which gives that feedback loop, which is so lovely, and hopefully will bring people back to wanting to do it more. And then we're done. That's it, there's no go find your profile page, because it doesn't exist. That's Graham, I hope it's great. I my, my gut tells me that's the way we should keep it going. But I have gotten a number of people saying we want to connect. So I'm like maybe I work and create like support groups for people.

Anne Sherry 1:32:28

Yeah, well, I was at a workshop one time where it was a whatever, intimate body center type, blah, blah. But we did these little bouquets and you had like four people and a bunch of groups of four. And you know, shared something pretty deep data, and you just wanted to stay in that group of four. And the facilitator was like, okay to have you move to the next group. And it's like, no, but it was all about like, he was like, This is how you build pathways to like experience that kind of like, don't go but then it feels good. And then as I don't go but it like it that titration was like helpful to the brain to gain courage and reaching out. Yes, but it was like I hated it at that time, but I was like this is a good idea, but I frickin hate it. Yeah, so, yeah, well, so

Alison Cebulla 1:33:18

I'm Ariana. We have learned so so so much. I still

Anne Sherry 1:33:23

don't go or stay here forever. I don't want to have another guest ever, ever. I only want to interview and we're done. The podcast is called Art latchkey or Tintin. Ariana.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:38

That's it. We're done. But I have a feeling that Ariana is gonna be so good at this last game that we play.

Anne Sherry 1:33:44

Oh, okay. I'm trying to play this game better and better. Yeah. Okay.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:50

So, by the way, um, I'll explain it to you, I have a feeling that you'll love it, but, but you do not. It's consensual. You don't have to agree to play it. So it's just the feelings game. This is a very Brene Brown thing. So I have the feelings wheel in front of me. And I'm just gonna, like trace my finger around the edge and you'll tell me when to stop and I will get on a random feeling. And then you will share a time recently when you felt that feeling of what it feels like in your body.

Anne Sherry 1:34:19

You love this game. Okay, I knew you're gonna guess what? I'm excited on the Enneagram we're head types and and you know, and I'm worried because I'm like, I'm a trauma based therapist, and I'm like, I don't feel anything. Anyways, go ahead and

Ariana Gibson 1:34:36

probably help on it. Well, who went through trauma who also feel that way? And they see the Thank you. And thank

Anne Sherry 1:34:42

you Ariana. Whatever feeling I'm feeling right now. Give me that one quick.

Alison Cebulla 1:34:48

Okay, Ariana. So you're gonna go first and so my finger is just going around the wheel and you can just tell me when to stop. Stop in fear rear

Ariana Gibson 1:35:08

I'm just gonna say the first thing that comes to mind. And so I tell the the context of the memory and then how it felt to my body.

Alison Cebulla 1:35:16

Yeah, like a time recently when you felt it, and what it feels like in your body. Yeah.

Ariana Gibson 1:35:21

So starting a business is very, very hard and pitching for funding is part of the job if you don't have money of your own, or wealthy friends and family to tap into. And so I have always, not always, but as I shared on this podcast, I've always worked hard at storytelling, because I love it, I felt like it came naturally, I enjoyed doing it. So I did it a lot. And then I got better at it. That's kind of how it works. And good storytelling is about understanding your audience and what motivates them emotionally and what gets them to feel things, because then you can tell a story that lands and that is memorable. When you're pitching a business idea that as a social impact company, as a Latin woman in the Midwest with no technical background, not from an Ivy League school, and no co founder, you are everything that you're not supposed to be for a venture capital fund to say, you know, we want you. And so I knew that going in. But what I didn't really grasp enough early on was that very few people care about the emotional impact and that piece of it in the VC world as as much as they do outside of it. And it's not because venture capitalists are monsters, it's because their job is to say we're gonna turn this money that was given to us into more money, their one job, yeah, so it's not a diss on VCs, it's, that's what they're supposed to do. And

Alison Cebulla 1:36:43

to be a diss on capitalism. Yes. Can we just okay.

Ariana Gibson 1:36:50

But what I what, what I had to do is reframe because I went in, I was like, they don't get it. They're not understanding it, they must be monsters and have no idea whatsoever. And that was taking zero accountability. So I reframed and said, What about the way I'm telling the story? is making it hard for them to process Wow, instead of saying, why aren't they getting it because you control the things you can control. I can't control their reaction, but I can control my understanding of what it is that they need to hear for this to make sense. And it was for to step into a world and environment where the thing that you think you're best at, you do, and you do at your best, and people are crying, and they're like cool, but we would never invest. Like Bernie, nice to meet you. We'd love to have coffee sometime. Never Are you getting our money ever. So I felt inferior because I didn't understand the way the game was played. I had a ton of passion. I wore my heart on my sleeve, I lobster my way into the room. And they were like, no. inferior. And heart racing is always a thing for me, I think with you know, panic attacks and anxiety. And then for so many people that have both of those, you have anxiety about having a panic attack. And so when you hit a couple of failures, and then you're like I'm walking into a failure, am I gonna have a panic attack? If I do, what's that going to look like? And you get so in your head. So it's racing thoughts, heart pounding. And then I remember I pitched there's a an organization called Tech rise in Chicago. And they are wonderful because they're actually dispensing capital to black and Latinx founders. And so they do a pitch contest every week. And I sort of thought, like, I'm better, this pitch is better. Now I got this. And I went into the first pitch. And I had friends and family on this live YouTube stream, and they were texting me during the judging portion at the end. And they were all like, you got this you want for sure. But I remember watching one pitch and going there my competition for sure. They were great, had a great story. And they've been around for two years. So they just had a way better business story. And they announced the winner and I didn't win and I shut my computer when the meeting was over. I didn't you know, slam my computer close. But once it was like, Okay, thanks so much in the smiles and that Oh, thanks so much for having me. This is so great. I shut the computer and I just sobbed. And it was been holding in so much emotion, trying to be strong and telling myself I can do it. That I was like I can't do it. I'm such a failure. I'm totally inferior. Six weeks later, I went back on that same pitch competition and I won $20,000 So we can't

Anne Sherry 1:39:20

do it right. Yes.

Alison Cebulla 1:39:22

Okay. Yeah, it was. So such a good example of that emotion. Thank you. And okay, and

Anne Sherry 1:39:32

okay, okay.

Alison Cebulla 1:39:33

Arianna. All right. You're feeling mentor you gotta you get it. Okay. You're my

Anne Sherry 1:39:37

feelings mentor. Okay. All right.

Ariana Gibson 1:39:42

Stanford is growth.

Anne Sherry 1:39:44

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Your feeling is

Alison Cebulla 1:39:47

are you ready yet?

Anne Sherry 1:39:48

I'm I'm already having a feeling. Can I talk about the feeling I'm having right now like panic in my chest.

Alison Cebulla 1:39:56

Your feeling is free.

Anne Sherry 1:39:58

Free Free. Sounds like that tax commercial. Free. Free, Free. Free, free, free. Free. I here's my struggle Ariana, like nothing. Allison picks out on that wheel feels like a feeling I guess I think my feelings like Yes. Okay, how is free of feeling free

Alison Cebulla 1:40:24

a time recently? What was the time recently?

Anne Sherry 1:40:28

You know what, I do have one it was after I've referred back to this but I overwhelmed myself with all that stuff like three weeks of hell of moving, moving, moving. And one little thing sent me off, I couldn't do this thing online and it was like big it was joining the pool for the summer and there was so much and I'm the only one who can do those things. And I sobbed like I became my eight year old self and I I actually talked it into the phone, I want to write about this, but I was like I'm not okay, I'm not okay, I'm not okay. And I was able to let that eight year old talk and cry and I was able to be with and it was like about riding a bike down a hill and I was like, I totally trashed myself and and a person had stopped and said, Are you okay? And I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine, you know, and I was like, don't believe

Alison Cebulla 1:41:26

people when there's a they're fine because they're not fine. No one's fine.

Anne Sherry 1:41:32

After that, and I really let that eight year old just go and I was alone. My husband wasn't there. I was like eta eta. He was like I'll be back soon. I was gonna stop by Lowe's. I was like no go to Lowe's

free but like after that, like after I let myself like really move through it or was like with this eight year old that blended with me. Like it was I might. Okay, so here that that is the feeling of free. I was like I just laid back. I was like, it's fine. I called I called the pool lady.

Alison Cebulla 1:42:13

I was like Wendy doesn't work. Can you? Can you get me into the pool? She

Anne Sherry 1:42:19

was like, Yeah, fine. I got it. But I could think I had my freaking brain back. And I was like, trying not to sound cry on the phone too windy, who helped me she was like, I got you. I was like, it never occurred to me to call her I was like, oh, that's freedom. But I had to you know, I had to stop I hadn't stopped like that. I don't think for 30 years not that type of sobbing. Yeah. Allison makes me do this. So

Ariana Gibson 1:42:50

are you so and right now? Thank you. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:42:54

I am. I feel like I'm able to even just I've been trying to tell this story on the last two podcasts, I think episodes and I'm like, and it

Alison Cebulla 1:43:02

hasn't made sense. And I'm gonna cut that section and it makes no sense. Yes. And now

Anne Sherry 1:43:15

we know that. So my next blog post so right now I feel embodied. I don't feel scared. I this this game makes me feel a little scared because I feel like I'm going to be bad at it and I'm supposed to be good at it because I'm fuck therapist. Whatever, I can hold space. So what is

Alison Cebulla 1:43:31

free? Like?

Anne Sherry 1:43:34

I feel embodied. I mean, I feel like I'm actually in my skin.

Alison Cebulla 1:43:38

I'm elapsed.

Anne Sherry 1:43:41

Yes, I don't have a shell. I can feel my heart. I can feel my chest I actually can see you better. Got it. I can look at you like I couldn't really take in your faces. So Got it.

Alison Cebulla 1:43:54

Thank you and you're so you did

okay, okay, help me out with mine. I'm gonna put my finger on the wheel. And by the way for our listeners the feelings we'll link is just feelings wheel.com And it's our show notes to so tell me when to stop. Stop. Cheeky

Anne Sherry 1:44:25

English for that. I think that's an English phrase.

Alison Cebulla 1:44:28

It's under the English it's under the category of playful so she's kind of playful and like a tz cutaway right? I think that cheeky is like my, my base state. Like,

Anne Sherry 1:44:45

I can attest to that.

Alison Cebulla 1:44:50

So I'm like, I think I woke up. Like I think I woke up cheeky. Um, I think Wait, hold on. Let's Can we look up the definition.

Anne Sherry 1:45:01

It's really an English term like okay, it was made to somebody from the UK. So yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:45:09

Oh, it's funny. The definition already has a word that I don't know what that word is input impudent. And I don't know what that is either, apparently means cheeky, irreverent, typically in an endearing or amusing way. I feel like, like this morning, and almost every morning like I wake up, I'm very like, I feel like very playful. I aren't like, I wake up next to my boyfriend. And maybe I like, like, sit on top of them and like poke his face and like, call him nicknames. Like, we have like, a million nicknames. Like, he bought this jacket from Patagonia a couple years ago. That's called a Nano Puff. And so I always say to him, you're my Nano Puff. Like, we just love fun, cute words like that as like nicknames. And we can't like we just as soon as we hear something that's cute, we just, it's like, immediately like you are, you're my Nano Puff.

Anne Sherry 1:46:14

Gonna use that.

Alison Cebulla 1:46:17

Um, so I think like this morning, I woke up in a playful, cheeky mood, it's, it's my default. I think it can be protective, too, a little bit like playful, like you've to be really safe. But I think also like being kind of having that because cheeky is kind of it says irreverent can be also a way to avoid intimacy, which was my word last time that I really struggled with. Because if everything's irreverent, then then maybe you don't have to take it so seriously. And sometimes it feels really good to take it seriously. So I think there's both sides to Cheeki. So what does it feel like in my body, I can feel like flushed and like heat here in my cheeks. It's like something where my cheeks appropriate, puff up, you know, and I feel like stretching in my face. That's where I feel cheeky. It's almost like associated with, yeah, it's appropriate cheeks. Maybe that's why it's called that. But it's like associated with smiling to me. I think. So I'm feeling like smile muscles engaged. So that's that.

Anne Sherry 1:47:31

I call it I call it seven minutes of hell. That's my name for it last week. Yeah.

Ariana Gibson 1:47:39

So free, man.

Anne Sherry 1:47:41

I know. I will. So where I'm gonna go buy somebody some Starbucks

Ariana Gibson 1:47:49

offer someone home. Oh, okay. Right, right.

Anne Sherry 1:47:52

Well, I'm already I'm on your app. Yes. I'm on your app. I will record we Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:47:57

So one thing that I like to do instead of buy someone at Starbucks is like when I'm in line at the grocery store, whatever at Whole Foods, is that I try to be like, actually present with the people that are around me like the checkout person. And it really makes a difference. Like if you say, how are you? And they can tell that you actually mean it. And you're actually going to person, it's way different than saying how are you when you don't mean it? They're just like, fine. But if you kind of look them in the eyes, and you go, how are you? How's your day? And they know, they know they're like, Oh, you care? You will get the coolest responses from people. Like you'll

Anne Sherry 1:48:32

actually get having? Yes.

Alison Cebulla 1:48:37

Yeah, which is okay.

Anne Sherry 1:48:38

Can be okay, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:48:42

Ariana, any last words?

Ariana Gibson 1:48:45

I want to say thank you. That's That's two words that I want to say. Because it's, you know, starting something like this, that's new and spending time with people who are genuinely interested in hearing about it is just a pleasure. And giving me the opportunity to let your listeners know about what I'm building. I think your audience is probably exactly who would have a wonderful time. Exactly. And probably also, you know, real enough to be like, Hey, here's what I didn't like. And here's what I do. And that's the most helpful thing anyone can do is tell us like, what what don't we see because we're on the inside. So I would just say, if anyone was inspired by anything you heard today, the kindest thing you can do if you want to practice kindness is join stigma app. It's free. It's www dot stigma dot HPP. And just try offering someone hope that's what I always encourage people to do. Don't just join, offer someone hope and see what it feels like. So often people get a thank you. They're like, Oh, my gosh, believe this, and it's very cool.

Alison Cebulla 1:49:42

Awesome. So again, links are in the show notes to connect because you're on you if you're on Instagram.

Ariana Gibson 1:49:49

Yeah, so our Instagram and Tiktok are kind of the the big places where we have public followers and it's at the stigma dot app. So the same as the website. That's cool. Dot HPP. And then you can follow me on LinkedIn. Ariana, Alejandra Gibson I post a lot of stigmas. Love your LinkedIn.

Alison Cebulla 1:50:03

Yeah, love following you there. That's how we connected so thank you for posting all those. And so Okay, gosh, thank you. Thank you so much.

Ariana Gibson 1:50:15

And we'll I'll see you on stigma but let's stay in touch and we'll do um, uh, yeah, season two. Where are they now? I will be talking about

Anne Sherry 1:50:29

Yeah, I'll be like,

Alison Cebulla 1:50:30

I can't wait to see you

Anne Sherry 1:50:34

right now I'm the Roly Poly is one of my better Raleigh Police. And they're really hard on the outside. Yeah. Okay. All right. Because they got a different thing.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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