32 - Poetry and Policy: The Anti-Violence Movement in the Caribbean—with guests Adrian Alexander & Juleus Ghunta

Episode Notes
Written By

Anne and Alison interview Adrian Alexander and Juleus Ghunta, community managers of the ACEs Caribbean Community, raising awareness of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs), and promoting Protective Factors, Positive Experiences, Hope, and Resilience throughout the Caribbean. They are working to inform and transform their region to see more empowered, trauma-informed, and resilient people, families, communities, organisations, and nations. Adrian and Juleus share about their trauma-informed anti-violence work in the Caribbean, including healing the wounds of boy children, who often are overlooked when we focus on gender-based violence. Juleus shares an excerpt from his recent book and poetry so good that it will capture even those who are thinking "I'm just not into poetry." 

Keywords: Juleus, children, ACEs, teachers, trauma, mother, years, book, Caribbean, adverse childhood experiences, home, hope, feel, violence, school, women, Jamaica, called, thought, experience

Bios

Juleus Ghunta is a Chevening Scholar, children’s writer, a member of Jamaica’s National Task Force on Character Education, and an advocate in the Caribbean’s Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) movement. Ghunta holds a BA in Media from The University of the West Indies, Mona, and an MA in Peace Studies from the University of Bradford, UK. His work explores the links between toxic stress and academic underachievement, and the varied effects of false positivity and emotional invalidation on the choices and hopes of survivors of complex trauma. His poems and essays on ACEs have appeared in 30+ journals across 16 countries. His picture book, Tata and the Big Bad Bull, was published by CaribbeanReads in 2018, and he is the co-editor of the December 2019 and March 2020 issues of Interviewing the Caribbean (The UWI Press), focused on children’s literature and ACEs in the Caribbean. He is also the co-editor of a special issue of PREE magazine on ACEs and storytelling (Dec. 2021). Ghunta’s new book, Rohan Bullkin and the Shadows: A Story About ACEs and Hope, was published by CaribbeanReads on December 31, 2021. His Notebook of Words and Ideas, which features prominently in Rohan Bullkin and the Shadows, will be published by Dreamright in 2022. 

Adrian Alexander, ACEs movement community leader based in Trinidad and Tobago.

"I came across information about ACEs while researching the effects and causes of Trauma. I was drawn to it when I realised that ACEs and resilience science can help persons to understand and overcome trauma experienced in childhood. This is a game changer for those of us who work with persons in conflict with the law and those who are survivors of abuse and crime. Moreover, it instils Hope that we can prevent childhood trauma by empowering families to better protect youth from adverse experiences."

Show Notes:

Interview:

Science Corner

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:09
And I'm Anne Sherry. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.

Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend. You are wanted

Alison Cebulla 1:13
here

Hey, Han. Hi, Alison.

It's good to see you. We just spent like an hour catching up.

Anne Sherry 1:31
I don't know like an authentic to be like, okay, with just I just sat down. Hey, Alison, how you doing?

Alison Cebulla 1:38
What have you been reading watching or listening to this week?

Anne Sherry 1:42
Oh, well. I put everything away. I wanted a memoir. Like I love memoirs. I love reading other people's in cash as a therapist to like, listen to people's stories all day. And then I just can't get enough. But I don't know. When I downloaded this. I thought maybe you referred it to me. But it's Laura Davis. I did not she co authored the courage to heal, which was the groundbreaking sexual healing sexual trauma that you need to read that, but it's from the 80s

Alison Cebulla 2:14
I think so late 80s.

Anne Sherry 2:15
I think I mean, it was just, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 2:18
Those authors didn't become antivax. Like all the other authors from the 80s. Like,

Anne Sherry 2:22
I'm not there. I'm meeting her memoir, which

Alison Cebulla 2:26
has become like a dozen. I'm like,

Anne Sherry 2:30
I read her mother daughter book. And it was so helpful. I was like, old. Thank you replacement now for telling me all the things easy. Yes. And this is the burning. We

Alison Cebulla 2:43
wrote. The beauty myth has also become an anti Vaxxer. And I loved that book. It was Naomi, Naomi, Naomi Wolf. Yes. Yeah. So anyway, please, please. I'm crossing my fingers about the courage to heal.

Anne Sherry 2:58
I don't know. She said she was. Let's see, she was a teen when, I mean, she's probably early 60s or something. And so it's the burning light of two stars a mother daughter story. And I'm just I think because, you know, I don't think it's any secret on this podcast that my relationship with my mom is struggling, struggling, struggling and having a struggle party, I'm gonna have a struggle party. I don't want to I don't want to. I'm foreshadowing the struggle. Okay. But this memoir, but I don't know what to say about it. Like, it's just good. And she's writing, you know, it's like, she's She kind of goes back and forth of what was happening, like real time when like, they're 30 years apart, which is same as my mom and I, okay. And then, and then she's into the future. Her mom moves to Santa Cruz, and she's caring for her. And you know, she lives in her own place. But like, she's like, Oh, my mom's coming to live near me in the same town. And even though she invited her she never thought she would come. But her mom gets diagnosed with dementia and then decides she needs to be closer to family. So it's this. She's had just an amazing partner. And it's just beautifully. She's a great writer. It's beautifully written. It's nourishing.

Alison Cebulla 4:15
We'll put it in the show notes,

Anne Sherry 4:16
I think. Yes. Really good. So what about you? What are you reading, watching? binging?

Alison Cebulla 4:22
So I have been following Dr. tema on Instagram for years and her posts combined psychology with kind of the like, I think like black Baptists like religious type preaching type style. That's what she does. She's a psychologist. She's black tema Bryant. She's at she teaches at Pepperdine which is such a Bougie place to teach. It's like the boot it's in Malibu. Yeah. Does it get Bucha

Anne Sherry 4:55
says three colleges right Claremont pepper. Oh, no

Unknown Speaker 4:57
different No. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Number Um,

Alison Cebulla 5:00
yeah, Pepperdine is like right on the beach. It's like right on the beach in Malibu where all the celebrities live. It's like, it's okay. Yeah. And, um, so she teaches there and then she's just been named. I want to get this right. I think it's president.

Anne Sherry 5:22
I download Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 5:23
ata. So the American Psychological Association. She's just been named president. I think wow. Yeah. Yes. I think I'm getting that right. Okay. And so she's kind of the woman of the hour, and she just put out a book called homecoming, and she also has a podcast called homecoming. So I just downloaded her book. I haven't started that yet. And then I've been listening to her podcast, and it's so nurturing. It's so soft and comforting, but also firm she does she just nails the vibe. Do you don't I mean of like, wow, boundaries, love your life. You know, Do this, don't do this. But also just like she's constantly talking about coming home to yourself, and how trauma can make you lose yourself and who you are and how we all have to get home. Oh, yeah.

Anne Sherry 6:20
So good. I can't tell you how many times I say that in my own therapy, and you know, having those body sensations. And also, that is what I see. From my clients when when a real truth comes or the efforting stops or but just like this sense of like, I feel like I'm coming home. Yeah. And I'm like, wow, we've really been shaped trauma chases you away. Yes, place in your life. And it's so awful. And that is such a huge piece of the tenderness and the softness of this work, equity work, any work, any human work, if I think that plays into our polarizations and hating each other and you

Alison Cebulla 7:02
know, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, so her episode 146 called creating emotional safety. I just want every person in the world to listen to that episode. So we'll link to it in the show notes. So good. And I think it speaks to how good she is that she has 453 reviews on. on Spotify. And the average of those is five stars five out literally no, no one is giving it less than five stars. Yeah, that's

Anne Sherry 7:36
how good another one. Everybody we are creating a mother effing awesome toolkit here. I mean, like the stigma app like our last yes, that last one, right? Yes. I'm like people download this. Give it to your children. Yeah, everybody needs this, get it into the psychiatric

Alison Cebulla 7:53
hospital. People click on our links in our show notes. I was just looking at what people were clicking on. You know, on the back end of our website yesterday, someone went through and clicked on like, every single thing, you know, that we have. So work as a toolkit and people are using it. Yeah. So I'm super excited.

Unknown Speaker 8:12
Always you don't go to her show notes. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yes. Awesome. Okay. Struggle party. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 8:26
You mean, so you go first, I was

Anne Sherry 8:29
foreshadowing. Okay. So I just had a, quite a few big emotions about this. Because I mean, I have a triad that I meet with that. Yeah, we just, you know, kind of doing this homecoming work. I think a sort of, it started out of being in a somatic abolitionist group. But what's happening in our bodies, so I talked with him about this, which is like, oh, do I want to bring this up? But I so I'm just gonna see what happens here. And I have a lot of protectors in place, because I'm not ready. I can already feel in my chest. I'm not ready to just be super open. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Ground here. Deep breath. So, yeah, that kind of coming to this. Just admitting that emotional neglect occurred and it for all kinds of reasons. And I, you know, like, I know about the 70s. I know how my mom grew up, and she didn't come with a lot of emotional intelligence. But I did, she was just like, actually diagnosed with dementia. And I was really surprised with how flooded I became with emotion. Because I think parts of me that have been so harsh and why I'm like, Oh, I hate everybody. You know, I know this that I had to shut down emotions. And it was really surprising. And what was sort of reflected back to me that I really appreciated was like, Yeah, you're at the point now where there's nowhere to run. then you have to feel all this. And I was like, you know, it was yay. And just the patients, that's gonna be, you know, like, there's a clarity and oh shitness thank God on some level and I was advised to, like, the best thing I got was like, be open to surprises, like, dementia sounds terrible, but like, see if you can let down a little bit because people, people's parts that they've had to lock away with dementia can come out. I know. It's not always it can be like, really harsh stuff. But my mom is a really soft kind person in the world. She just wasn't able to be present. So it's like, God, it's just gotten softer inside, you know? Yeah. So what a journey and it's in process, what a journey and I was like, it was interesting, because I was like, oh, Allison stuff from last week, you know, it not being too late. And that's true. And here, it is too late in that like, one sense, but I was also got this invitation to be open to surprises, like be open to surprises and so that hardness to like,

Alison Cebulla 11:18
now that hardness is melting a little bit. Yeah, I've been wanting to do so I have such a

Anne Sherry 11:24
good strap nowhere to run. And I Yes, it is. And it feels like how can you come home to like a hard locked door? Right. So I love this idea of heart homecoming. And that maybe like you want it who you don't want to live in a you know, hardness like, oh, maybe this would help me? Not, you know, come home to myself a little bit where then I could actually be a bit softer in the world. And just, maybe it's not too late, you know, with yourself. Especially Yes, yes. Yes. Well, that's my struggle,

Alison Cebulla 12:00
and it's impossible. space for your struggle this week.

Anne Sherry 12:03
Thanks, Alison. Yeah. And it was helped by you opening up into your struggle and feeling fully last week last week was Oh, my God, I was listening to our episode. And I was in full crying mode, needed to go into Lowe's to like, get some kind of receipt worked out. And I was like, I gotta sit here an extra 10 minutes to get my shit together to like, go argue over these plants that they didn't charge me correctly for so yes. All right, what's your

Alison Cebulla 12:39
struggle? My laid off me struggle this week is not a soft, gooey one. I'm just going to share a kind of a lighter, whatever. But you know, I've been talking for quite a number of weeks about, I think I need to go back on my psych meds. And so I decided to do it. And I'm super stoked. But I want to share the struggle because there is still stigma. There is still this thing in my head that's like, wow, you can't do this on your own. Can you? And yeah, well, that hurt a little more than I thought to say. Yeah, yeah. And, and so, but seeing the amazing brave posts, like I'm Georgia heartstart from my favorite murder, just did a post on Instagram where she was showing her handful of meds that she takes every day and it's like a nice little combo, some Lexapro, maybe some Wellbutrin and something else was really, really wonderful. And so it's so important for me to share openly. Yeah, I do need this, you know, this is what I'm taking. And this is what works for me. And it's okay. And some of the best of us are, are taking meds like Glennon Doyle from we can do hard things podcast and love warrior. She has a fun little song she thinks about her Lexapro and how she can't live without it. And so I've you know, I reached out to some psychiatrists this week actually made like a whole bunch of different health appointments at different clinics. And just in case like people couldn't, you know, I was like, yeah, and then canceled a few things. But um, yeah. I'm really proud of myself for doing that. And I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm real. I'm just you know, it's a struggle.

Anne Sherry 14:22
You know what? Well, yes, but that little thing that you just did I want to like take that and put it on crowdsourcing hope I want it on like

Alison Cebulla 14:32
I've been laid about. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 14:36
About this mom stuff or this heart you know, like tenderness or Yeah, I take my app, it's straight stigma app and I'm really surprised at how much comes up around like actually joining in I know I'm going to but I'm like so curious like, well, what's the holdup? What's the holdup? And I'm like, There's something that I'm getting curious about anyways. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 14:58
So that's struggling for you, and I just want to share what I'm taking at the moment I'm taking Wellbutrin, 150 XL, because I just want to I just want to normalize talking about beds for everybody. And that's what I was on for a number of years. It's been a couple years for me, but loved it worked great for me, and I'm super curious to see if it's gonna work great again.

Unknown Speaker 15:21
Awesome. So, today's episode.

Alison Cebulla 15:26
It's like a mind blowing episode. i

Anne Sherry 15:31
Yes, his poetry. Both of them

Alison Cebulla 15:34
just Adrian's wisdom? Julius. Yes. Just deep, heartfelt. Oh my god, I just can't even with this episode, the work that they're

Anne Sherry 15:42
doing in the world to their experiences of trauma, and then transforming them into help for generations. Absolutely. I mean, I was just yeah, my mouth was just I don't know how they do aspired, and they're doing amazing what it was. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a phenomenal experience and resonate. It's still resonating. It's still Yeah, it's still now with

Alison Cebulla 16:07
me, and I'm so excited for you all to get to hear this interview.

Just a heads up this episode contains some descriptions of violence against children. Okay, so we're really excited to be here today with Julius Ghanta. And Adrian Alexander. Welcome Julius and Adrian.

Unknown Speaker 16:52
Thanks so much for having us. Nice to meet you. And yeah, it's

Anne Sherry 16:56
nice to meet you both.

Alison Cebulla 16:59
So great. Um, I got connected with Adrian and Julius from my work at pieces connection and paces stands for positive and adverse childhood experiences. And this is the job I've had for the last three years I just left. But what I was doing in that role was working with different community leaders throughout the United States and the world who were leading aces, adverse childhood experiences and paces positive childhood experiences. Leading these movements. So Adrienne and Julius are the community managers and the community leaders for the paces connection Caribbean community. So Julius Kunta is a oh shoot Chevening scholar, poet, and an advocate in the Caribbean adverse childhood experiences movement. He holds a BA in media from the University of the West Indies, Mona and an MA and P studies from the University of Bradford. His work explores the links between toxic stress and academic underachievement and the varied effects of false positivity and emotional invalidation on the choices in hopes of survivors of complex trauma. And I have in my hand, the row hand bulkan and the shadows a story about ACEs and hope, which was published earlier this year. So congratulations on that. Julius. Oh, good. And then, Adrian you you refuse to to provide a bio in advance, but maybe you could just tell our listeners a little bit about your work. This is

Anne Sherry 18:45
natural consequences. Adrian,

Adrian Alexander 18:48
I hear that I hear not a problem. I see myself as like a facilitator. In this particular role. persons like Julius and so many of the others who have had the privilege of meeting since we started the Caribbean Community on pieces connection. They are the stars, they're the ones with the lived experience, the academic experience, they're the ones who have been writing. I'm just the guy who just happened to ask elephant a question. Hey, can we do this with the Caribbean as well? And it's parked a lot of beautiful, beautiful things. You know, a lot of people who had been saying the same thing and thinking the same thing to themselves when they're small groups now had a place where they could reach out and connect with other persons of like mind and heart and really begin to plan to see things happen in our region. And, you know, I'm just that guy.

Alison Cebulla 19:49
Absolutely. And I mean, I've been I had when I was working at pieces connection. I saw you as someone who was a particularly active leader you planned I like a little a little online conference. Um, was that was right. Was that one like about men's issues and and ACES is that right?

Unknown Speaker 20:10
Right. I'm actually someone who I've known for a number of years. He's a lecturer at the University of the West Indies, St. Augustine campus in history. But He is credited as being the catalyst for the International Men's Day. And International Medicine is observed on November the 19th. And one of the areas that he's recently been engaged in is will the of the boy child, so that was being commemorated last year in, in Maine. And that is the first one that we were able to address. And it was really looking at how our boys are being socialized their needs, their concerns, their traumas, and how left untreated, those can lead them to grow up into being very angry, very good, traumatized individuals. So we were able to have that particular online discussion and was able to, again, connect with some wonderful people, we had Mark from Canada, who was then living in the Cayman Islands, and he had done some research on ACEs and so on. So we had a little chat with him. And a gentleman I've known for decades now down here, Trinidad, who's a clinician as well and, and he's also a lecturer at two universities, and he had never heard of aces. So we brought him into the discussion, because he's done a lot of work as well, on men and men's issues. So for him, it was a great opportunity to hear about ACEs, and to also introduce his students faces. So he was on here, encourage students to tune in as well. So there was a lot of discussion about what is this thing called aces, you know, I sent him in from Asia. And so he's the kind of guy who, when he grabs a hole or something, he shares it with other people, you know, a real fatherly figure kind of thing. So we were able to do that. And then in June, we actually did one on Father's, you know, the father. Right, right, right. And I was able to get in touch with a lady who has been at the center of the International Men's Day movement in the US for a number of years, Diane Sears, and she was able to bring a lot of information. I mean, just historian, as you were, you know, and especially within the lens of African slavery, and how that traumatized men, whether they're African Americans or Afro Caribbean, and how that filters down into the family, and not being there for our families, because of a lot of that historical trauma and the socialization of men. And we just had a wonderful discussion on those issues and looked at solutions, right? Because you can't just be releasing a problem, we have to look at how do we address this. And I think that kind of like brings me back to what even led me to eases because it was looking at a terrible problem that we face here in the region, such as male violence against women, intimate partner violence, and it was doing research on that, that I came across. The first link to the east. Dan is connection website. Yeah. And it was about how do we get men as batterers to not you know, just continue to

Alison Cebulla 23:40
million dollar question. Yeah. Yeah. All over in places all over the world. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Unknown Speaker 23:45
Yeah. But the answer was found right there, right, because it was like pointing to research or looked at not just seeing two men. This is how you should behave. But filling that gap of this is why you behave the way you did. So there was some research from, I think it was New York, where they have this batterers intervention program. And they use the ACEs study, to identify how many of the batters had aces, explain to them what that was all about. And then they understood why they had behaved the way they did, and then let them into now this is the more appropriate form of behavior. And they had a much lower recidivism rate than other Bye, those who did not have that particular. I mean, that that critical element of understanding why I did what I did, because otherwise you're left thinking, I'm just a horrible person. You know, I can't help myself and all of those other things are when we understand why we did what we did, and how to change that behavior. And of course, some mentoring rules into that. And that, that was it for me. I just began until we look at everything, quotation mark Google searches, adverse childhood experiences. And that led me now into looking at it through the lens of human trafficking, because that was one of the main areas that I've been working on for more than a decade now. And I found, again, the research that pointed out that persons with four or more ACEs are more likely to become victims of sex trafficking in particular, and also some labor trafficking elements in there. And it was just like, Eureka. So I've been telling everyone who would listen. Yeah, but we have to look at aces as a means of addressing all forms of social ills in our society. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 25:46
It's like it like it brings in curiosity, right. But if you just stop doing that you're bad. You know, then then people are just, like, dropped into shame. But if you're saying, hey, let's look at the entire picture here. You really get people get interested, and they, you know, they don't, they can move out of the shame and be more like, Oh, I do want to take responsibility. I do want to understand I don't think people want to be bad, you know, so. Yeah, well, so

Unknown Speaker 26:13
is the man in the mirror thing. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 26:16
Yeah. Let's, let's ask Adrian and Julius each

Unknown Speaker 26:22
latchkey question. Do you want to ask Dan?

Anne Sherry 26:27
Yes. Okay. So we had talked about we don't we, before we got on, we said latchkey but, Adrian, you immediately said unsupervised. And we're like, yes, that's exactly. That was it? Yeah. So either Julius or Adrian, who wants to go first to maybe speak. If you you resonate with the unsupervised latchkey experience or the urgent experience or the urchin? Yeah. Which, or or your friend? Yeah, or all three.

Alison Cebulla 26:59
Yeah, Juliet's, go for it. Go for it. Both of

Juleus Ghunta 27:02
them actually. I grew up in. I grew up in a single parent home, in rural Jamaica, myself, and three siblings and my mother. And our situation was very, very difficult. I've often told the story of how, as a 14 year old, I moved into my 10th home. So we moved a lot because of those challenges. So my mother was always aware, hustling, as we say, indirect, trying to make ends meet, so we were always on our own. As a 14 year old, I found myself in an extended family setting living with my grandmother and uncles and aunts. And it was a difficult, terrible experience for me, but not just to me. I got into Africa, to put it lightly with one of my aunts, and my grandmother said, you have to go you have to leave. But 14 years old, I left my extended family home. I went in search literally have a new home. And I've been on my own since so no, I know what it's like to live in this way.

Unknown Speaker 28:12
No. It's okay. Yeah. The story is easy for me to tell. Because, you know, I have been through this experience, but I'm on the other side. Yeah. So yeah, it's absolutely no problem. Not distressing.

Unknown Speaker 28:28
So they we talk about latching Yes. That sounds like you had to turn your key is good. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 28:38
What do you mean by Turn your key in?

Anne Sherry 28:41
Well, he had to leave home. Like, he didn't. Yes, yes. Which is not good.

Alison Cebulla 28:48
Yeah, yeah. You were gonna say a little more about return ahead.

Unknown Speaker 28:52
Well, actually, what's good? What's good. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 28:56
That it was good. Oh, yes. Because as a 14 year old, I, of course, I cried. I remember I cried for about four hours immediately after that happened. Before I went to another community in search of a new home, and I asked for people, random people may stay with you. Now, we don't have enough space. We don't have enough space. But years later, when I thought about it, I would not have survived in that abusive place. It was a blessing in disguise. If I was not, Colonel, if I was not thrown away. I don't know what would have happened to me. I'm pretty sure I probably wouldn't be alive. And I'm not saying this to be dramatic because so many of my friends had similar situations have not made it. They didn't make it to 25.

Alison Cebulla 29:44
Absolutely. I have family members close family members and friends who didn't make it. So it's not dramatic. It's just the truth. Yeah. And I think that's what makes doing aces work so important because it Then it's like you can kind of you can really connect the dots of why did this person make it in this one didn't so, you know, thank you for doing the work that you're that you both are doing. Adrian, were you latchkey?

Anne Sherry 30:18
No. Heavily supervise. Okay. Yeah. We did get a term for that Adrienne. There was yen. It's called overcorrected. Her daughter. She was overcorrected. Heavily. Okay, I'm making some assumptions here. But it sounds like you might.

Alison Cebulla 30:41
If you wait, maybe it was just the right amount collected? Yeah, for you collected

Anne Sherry 30:47
over collected neglected? Yeah. We're making up words. Now.

Unknown Speaker 30:55
I didn't grew up with my biological father. So I mean, it was my mom. And then my stepfather and my mom. So mom grew up with, like, a dozen siblings, you know. So this whole thing of being alone just wasn't part of their DNA. And she made sure it wasn't part of our so if she had to go to work, there was always like somebody in the house to watch us that somebody wasn't always a safe person, which was one of the issues. I knew the irony of, you know, getting into this whole thing and doing this work on pieces and pieces at a conversation with my mom at age. I was 14, when she found out the abuse that we had been subjected to us by someone who had been hired to watch over us, because it just wasn't something you talk about, right. So you go through different things. And again, as I've mentioned earlier, intimate partner violence is not unknown, in our country in our region, and was not known in our home either. So those are the kinds of things that you know, your experience, this whole desire to run away because of some of the things that are happening. And then again, you look back now, and I realize that everything that I experienced was a blessing in disguise. So years ago, I was doing work with some young men in the juvenile detention center, this whole question of, you know, can you relate to them? Can they relate to you came up, and it's like, Okay, I've never been incarcerated. But I know what it feels like to be lonely, and what it feels like to hear your mom being beaten up, or to see it happening. And to have that fear, grip your heart, you know, so the underlying emotions are things that you've experienced because of the aces. And therefore, even if thank God, because of the positive experiences, you didn't hit in a particular direction, 100% you can still relate and identify, and it's addressing those things that may realize, yeah, nothing is wasted in this life, even some of the extremely painful experiences. Because like, right now, my sister is studying to be a clinician and taking all of that same pain from our childhood, and turning that around to help other people. And that's something I've seen a lot, a lot. So not necessarily a latchkey not necessarily an urgent per se, but

Alison Cebulla 33:37
oh, you a friend, friend to Child Trauma. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 33:46
I would love to do an Asus study on on therapists like what what is our we're therapists

Alison Cebulla 33:52
have higher aces, I think. Yeah, for sure. They do. Nurse

Anne Sherry 33:57
totally trying to understand you. Like it's trying to understand your family. You know what happened, right?

Unknown Speaker 34:03
Like, yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely.

Alison Cebulla 34:07
So, Julius, you just had this book come out about about a boy who and we will actually we'll we'll play we'll play a recording a little bit of it right now.

Unknown Speaker 34:28
Rohan Bookchin hates reading. Everyone knows this. His teachers, classmates, everyone, including the shadows. The shadows know Rohan better than he knows himself. Rohan can sense them, but he doesn't know what they are. That they feel a sphere of books that they do not want him to become a good reader. Every time he picks up a book, The Shadows cause his mind to flicker light To light bulbs in a hurricane, Rohan thinks hard about where to go, who to trust with the idea of talking books, who to talk to about the flickering bulbs in his hand. He thinks of his classmates, but fears they will laugh and cheer. He thinks of teacher Morgan. But she believes he's a troublemaker, and doesn't seem interested in how he feels. He thinks of home and his mind goes blank. Sometimes his home is a hurricane.

Alison Cebulla 35:39
That's just a little excerpt, but we have a link to his book in the show notes.

Maybe you just want to tell us actually give our audience like a little summary about what your book is about and what inspired you to write it.

Unknown Speaker 36:00
All right, thank you. So the title of the book is Rohan Belkin. And the shadows a story about Asus and home. Let me begin with the title. So this is my story. Okay. But of course, my name is not Rohan Belkin put this as the name of one of my childhood peers. We went to the same primary school. His actual name is Rohan Pitkin. And during our time, in primary school, we were beaten a lot by our teachers, for a number of reasons for being slow for being late for being poor. And the teachers did this terrible thing, where they often separated the clashes between bright students and don't do Oh, no. And both of us were always over a dozen said, and and they would, they would just just beat a son of parents gave them permission to my mother, I remember gave the school's basic school primary school teachers permission to whip me. And after a while, Rohan just stopped crying. He wouldn't cry, I couldn't understand why. And the teachers would beat him harder and harder to make him cry. And he just wouldn't cry. It didn't matter what they did to him. And so we call them Bookchin, which really means bulls skin, imply that his skin was so hard, he wasn't able to feel pain, wow. His life is quite different from mine. He is in his early 30s Looks like he is 55. And a part of what I'm trying to do with the books that I write, including my first book, which tells us again about my story, but it uses the name of one of my childhood peers, Tata, he became an fan for a little while and all of these sorts of great stories. And stories.

Anne Sherry 37:54
Were here for

Unknown Speaker 37:55
terribly have flipped. And there's hope and you know, the so this is me celebrating him. I'm not quite sure if he can read this book. I don't think so I don't think he actually learned to read. But when I go back to Jamaica, I'll show him a copy of this book with his name on it. And I'm hoping that people will buy this book because I also hope to support him financially. So that is the title of this book. So role unblocking in the shadows is essentially a book about adverse childhood experiences, particularly the nexus between early adversity and later academic challenges that children have. And this was my experience I learned to read when I was 11 years old. I was one of I think, one our tool, maybe the only student I can't remember who was forced to repeat a six. I went to school for the first time I was five years old. Most children Jamaica begin school at two or three, but I couldn't go because my mother couldn't afford to send me on my oldest sister and she had to make a choice. And in Jamaica, usually the girls get to go to school, as opposed to what happens in many Asian or African cultures. So I would sit at the five year old four year old and watch my sister leaves go to school. And I had to stay home and there was no stimulation there. So when I went to school, eventually at five years old, I was way behind and the teachers were not very patient at all. So I was beaten a lot. In Basic School. In fact, I only spent about a year or a year and a half. I can't remember in basic school, because on one morning, I was standing in the line on my teacher and these teachers return as villains in my books. Yeah. And this teacher just smacked me in my head. And I said, What did I do? I I didn't know what I did. So I took my belt out of my pants and I walked her through a times across his chest. Then I ran into the churches, schools in a church I grabbed my lunch kit. My pants was falling off. They were Have lots of graves in the churchyard. I heard it over the graves. And that was the end of my primary school. Wow, I didn't return. The next day, I didn't tell my mom, the next. The next day, I stopped halfway on that journey to school. I remember this so vividly. And there are so many things that I don't remember. And I was honored as a kid tree, I don't even know I can do it can fruit from West Africa. And I paid for about two hours. And then I decided, You know what, I can't go back to that school because she's going to murder me, I have to go and confess to my mother, who was my uncle and another community. And I went to that community, I told my mother and my mother did what a lot of mothers do to their children, she, she didn't really listen to me or what I was feeling. She broke an entire leaf from a coconut tree, and tied the leaflets together actually beaten for about half an hour before the entire school. And that was my introduction to primary school life, then she took me to the principal's office and said, you know, take him, that is our end, primary school. So part of these experiences are not in this book. But in the essence of some of these challenges that children go through the abuse, the loneliness, how difficult it is for them to learn, when they're experiencing these psychological pressures. Yeah, and how important it is for them to have at least one person. In my case, it was a teacher, who was very, very kind to me, and taught me to read and it was primarily because of her kindness. So to finish, it is separated into three parts and introduction, which is in the form of a letter to parents. And then the story itself an overview of adverse childhood experiences at the end.

Alison Cebulla 41:55
Adrian, do you see that culture changing at all of beating your kids? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Unknown Speaker 42:07
Okay, a lot of it has to happen through legislation, which is unfortunate, but that's kind of like where we're at right now, at least in Trinidad and Tobago. So in 2015, the Children's Act was amended. And the new Jordans legislation is really giving effect to the UN convention on the rights of children. What that has done is brought about a greater police awareness and activity, even against parents, okay, so where parents, neglected children, they go to live or to party and the libertarian woman supervised. They're being arrested, they're being prosecuted. Where, for example, women know that their husbands, the children's father, or whichever man maybe in their lives, is abusing the child and doesn't intervene or reported to the police, then fee to faces the courts. So by proactive by proactive police action, they've been able to get people to understand that this is not the way it has not reached to the point where we would like because over the last 10 days, we've seen two children die at the hands of parents or relatives one a 15 year old girl who was taken by her mother to her father's place so that she could be disciplined because she was getting into relationships with boys and not listening to her mom. Apparently the father was using a belt to beat her she tried to run away. And she fell down a flight of stairs and died from a injuries. The other was a four year old boy who was beaten for I mean, what kind of four year old do to warrant that type of abuse, but he died from his injuries as well. So it really highlights that we've come a long way in terms of proactive policing, there's a children's authority that is really overburdened, because they said, from the time the legislation was proclaimed and began doing their work, they were inundated. I mean, 10s of 1000s of reports. And of course, making children aware that they can make reports of their own means that you're getting so many more reports coming in and then telling the students that, you know, and the teachers as well, if you know that a child is being abused at home, then you have to report it and before. I mean, I've done sessions in schools and teachers are telling me that there's no way they're going to report it because there was an incident where a parent came into the school with a cutlass and attacked a teacher who reported the parents to the police, you know, but, again, the legislation they've imposed such a hit The penalty on anyone who is aware, and the category has been broadened over time. So you're in a relationship of a parent to a child. So as a teacher, as a youth worker, as you know, you have that responsibility under the law to make a report, and if not, you're fined heavily or you can be sent to prison. I think it's like the seven years or so. Okay, so everyone is now being a little more cautious. And saying, Well, look, let me make that phone call. Let's make that report. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, over the last 10 days, these two children have lost their lives. So we have a long way to go.

Unknown Speaker 45:40
Yeah. Wow. It's like,

Anne Sherry 45:41
I mean, ACES is so new, you know, in a lot of ways, like it's the 90s, right? Like, it's gonna take a generation for all these trauma and tourism stuff, like it's coming. But it's still bearing witness to, like that generation that's kind of lost in some ways, you know, but it's this study was

Alison Cebulla 46:04
published in 1988. And like, I didn't know, I didn't, I never heard of it until 2017. You know, so it's, yeah.

Anne Sherry 46:12
I mean, I, I tell everybody, as well, I'm proselytizing, and you know, nurses, doctors, I'm like, you know about ACEs, right? Of course, you do your primary? Oh, no, they

Alison Cebulla 46:22
don't like why don't know, they have no idea. I

Anne Sherry 46:24
give you the PS nine, I can tell you if you're depressed, but like, not aces. So I was like, I mean, everybody knows it, like, but like, it being this thing that policy is, is, you know, that is making big changes. Everybody's like, well, sure, if you're abused as a kid. You don't do as well, you know, but it's like, now, as policy and research. I want

Alison Cebulla 46:49
to come back to the whole thing about like, it just being like this open thing to like, strike kids in school. Because that's, I mean, that's definitely part of the history in the United States for sure. Like, my dad went to Catholic school and he was for sure hit by or you know, with different like instruments and things by the nuns and so he was in school in the in the 1960s. I don't know when that became like, I guess saying,

Unknown Speaker 47:18
the 80s. Like, but that junior high.

Alison Cebulla 47:21
Oh, when you're really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it's not really until the 90s

Anne Sherry 47:26
that that was up scented, that principal would do it like and had paddles on the wall, like, Oh, I didn't know and like, that would have been late 70s, early 80s.

Alison Cebulla 47:36
Wow. Wow. Okay. And so is this Oh, shaming? Is this still legal for teachers to hit kids? In, like your home countries? Or is it not like officially, it's

Unknown Speaker 47:49
not legal at the primary school level. I'm not quite sure if it is still on the books at the high school level, but we've had conversations about it, but it really doesn't matter if it is legal or not, because there will be no ramifications, no one will go to jail for and teachers will continue to do it. Unfortunately. I survived for months in a Jamaican school as a teacher, I was ready to quit after two months, one of the worst schools in Kinston. A lot of administrators at the Ministry of Education and executives and government do not understand the scale of challenges the challenges that teachers have to face particularly in these newly upgraded high schools in the country. It is extremely difficult not just the behavior of the children but the poverty that exists in terms of resources that are available to teacher in one school I went to school I taught at the teachers did not even have running water going to the pipes. And Jamaica is not really that poor, it's just an extremely dysfunctional and corrupt state. And when you have in your class 30 students and 90% of them have at least four adverse childhood experiences and they live in inner city communities created by political parties in our country and they come to school having been sexually assaulted the night before or they didn't have any food and they will tell you these experiences because as a teacher I was open to them and their sister look at my hand and you see the fresh cut a ladder going up to two there it was just terrible terrible to for me to observe so it's a really complex and difficult situation so teachers find themselves in that situation and they don't know what to do it's a last resort from any of them this violence

Unknown Speaker 49:52
but it's almost like our

Anne Sherry 49:55
our we have another category like asses like adverse struck Trouble experiences like government's not giving school enough money or, you know, like, so. Yeah, I'm gonna call it asses. Yes. I mean, really? I mean, these schools are having traumas. Right? You get it? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 50:15
Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 50:19
Make making complete? Absolutely. Yeah. All right, no crusade.

Unknown Speaker 50:25
But this is so important because one of the problems that critics or the so called pieces movement have identified is that there's two greater focus on individuals and unfamiliar challenges. And not enough focus on structural violence, the ways in which, for example, some of the political structures that emerge out of problematic 70s, in Jamaica, when they were clear ideological divides, that led to the creation of what we call Garrison communities in Jamaica, how these communities now that are extremely poor, continue to produce very problematic and difficult to deal with citizens. So the conversation about structural policy and structural violence needs to be a very important part of this conversation about how we're going to solve this problem. That is,

Alison Cebulla 51:16
yes. And report. Issues are deeply, deeply structural. So it's almost like, it's a really big Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 51:33
We have to start somewhere. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, from from our perspective, and this, this collection has been doing a lot of this work in terms of like the historical trauma series, and so on. And we can identify with some of those things here in the Caribbean, the impact of of slavery, intergenerational trauma, the fact that you're conditioned to use violence, because it's all you've known all of your life, right? Hundreds of years of oppression and exploitation organization. Yeah, correct. And there was no discipline there was in the name of discipline. So you practice what you have experienced. And until there is an introduction of a better strategy, you resort to what you know. Similar to what Julius mentioned, here, in Trinidad and Tobago, the decision to stop the use of corporal punishment in schools was a policy decision for this before legislation. So I mentioned to you the children's insurance legislation insurance package of legislation that was proclaimed in 2015. But a couple of decades before that, there was a policy decision by the Ministry of Education. And it happened overnight. So children went to school one day, only to hear that only the principal or a dean of discipline had the authority to strike them. And then even that was whittled away. So talking to a young man from the Youth Detention Center, he said, you know, a lot of my behavior, I traced back to that one day, going to school and realizing that there are no consequences for whatever I choose to do. No consequences, the teachers cannot physically restrain me they cannot. No consequences. Yeah. And that amount of power, they will not prepare to handle right. And in the same way, the teachers had not been prepared for this new paradigm interested people to understand how we are to speak with children, to motivate them, rather than using fear. As that catalyst, spark change, it happened overnight, literally, overnight, and they still had not been I mean, up to this day, the degree of training that teachers receive to manage a classroom when they themselves would have grown up having corporal punishment administered as a control mechanism. It's woefully inadequate. Yeah, it's woefully inadequate? I think so. And that's a structural issue. That is a structural issue. So yes, we want to see change happen. But change has to be phased in every everyone has to be prepared for the change. So even long before getting into isas and so on. I was trying to introduce restorative practices into our education system. That was way back in 2005. Right, working with the student support services in the Ministry of Education to understand what restorative practices are, and this is a means of addressing Um, disruptive behavior in the classroom in the school environment without having to resort to the violence. And it was sad, because doing the work with the social workers who were guidance officers in school social workers, and then having the door open to visit schools, and I'm speaking with the adults in the schools, and realizing that the problem in the school system is not the children, it's the adults introducing to them, the whole principles of restorative practices have an a level playing field, that everyone's rights, everyone's voice matters. They refused to see that. Right. They wanted the power that was inherent in them having the title of teacher so that regardless of what they did, if the child stepped out applying, they had the power to punish whether that was exclusion from the school environment or anything like that, or labeling the child or using abusive words. The fact is, they wanted that balance of power. And if you're speaking about restorative practice, if speaking about understanding where people have come from, what is motivating their behavior, and how to help them to change, being the bully has to be taken out of the equation.

Unknown Speaker 56:24
Because that just increases the level of abuse the level of disrespect the level of violence. And if they don't want to have that level playing field, visa vie their children, we saw that the school hierarchy, also didn't want to have that level playing field where the principal or vice principal wanted to abuse the junior teachers. Interesting. So it continued to filter down, right. So we all have to take that step back and realize that the manner in which I don't want to be treated, I have to bear that in mind that I don't put that on to another human being. Regardless that person's age, their sex, regardless of their nationality. It's about us foods and food was recognizing that we are fellow human beings. No other distinction should distort that. No other distinction should this store that.

Alison Cebulla 57:19
Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot there we could dig into, but I want to give some space and time for Julius to share some of his poetry.

Anne Sherry 57:31
Yes. Oh,

Alison Cebulla 57:33
you have one on hand.

Unknown Speaker 57:38
Thank you. So one of the reasons I'm in Japan is to put together what I hope will become a collection of points, or chapbook. And these points about my experiences. So I'll read one point about what it was like for me being on my own from age 14 to 17. And I wrote this few years ago, and I literally just changed the title so the title of it is a sadness stretched, and deep on living on my own from age 14 to 17. Not long before I had marked my grandmother for her fear of ghosts. Alone, I learned that the spear is a graveyard. Like her. I sprinkled throughout after dark sprinkled Psalms, each verse a charm for vanquishing ghosts, who, like rain seep into crack riddled homes. On many restless nights. I stared at the ceiling, watching my rage hammered dense into zinc, catching the wrath of weathered nails on my tongue. At 14, I craved simple things. My parents talking tenderly to me. Their whispers withering my fear of the dark. There was a stream in the valley behind my house. There, I baptized my needs in the shallows and hummed a sadness stretched and deep. It was the way I learned to ignore with a calm so still, it could have been the eye of a hurricane thank you

Unknown Speaker 59:42
oh my god. Oh, yeah. We How

Alison Cebulla 59:52
did you get into writing poetry? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 59:55
Well, I actually wrote my First time when I learned to read around age 11, age 12. And, and then I stopped writing, I played football for a number of years or what you got stuck in America. And this was my way of dealing with my trauma, the violence in the game, the East kick of the ball. For me, it was a way to relieve some of my stress. And in 2008, at university, my leg was violently broken in a match three places right leg, and I couldn't play football anymore. And I had to find something else. Another way to relieve the stress and writing was what was available. So that is when I started to write poems seriously. And the writing has been such a great outlet for me terms of helping me to process on a very, very deep level more than any other form of writing. So all the experiences have been through. And I wrote my last point, five years ago. I'm here in Japan to see if I can write poems I can still write and I've managed to write a couple of new poems, and I'm really excited about the possibilities and hoping that I'll be able to finish a collection.

Anne Sherry 1:01:20
Well, not that I want you to be in any pain, but I sure am glad your leg got broke. So.

Alison Cebulla 1:01:37
Transformation. Do you have any other?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:45
Yes, I go for it. Quite a few. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:51
The title of it is still tended to but I'm calling it for now. Suicidal boy kneels at the altar of Mother worship. When I was 13, I poured kerosene over my body and lit a much. Mother said there was more than enough land to bury me in. Later that year, I stood on a cliff at Fort Charlotte. The whole school gas behind me and below the wide arm of see urged me into its depth. In Kendall. The school's counselors collected mother's tears and forced me to drink drop after drop until my mouth was full of praise. They left me there repentant at the altar of Mother worship, my offerings of silence and shame and regret raised above my head. Mother said she loved me for the first time when I was 16. But not before I had fallen to my knees. eyes wet with wonder and prayed Wow damn

Unknown Speaker 1:03:20
beach lists, Julia.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:23
Yeah. Oh

Alison Cebulla 1:03:25
my god. Wow.

Anne Sherry 1:03:29
So when you're on fresh air with Terry Hall?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:34
You heard it here first.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:35
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:42
They'll be on the big ones.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:43
First. Yes.

Alison Cebulla 1:03:48
Holy crap. I don't have anything to say. I can't Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:03:54
I like poetry. Now. Often. I don't like poetry. Yes, I know.

Alison Cebulla 1:04:01
I like poetry.

Anne Sherry 1:04:08
Okay, Julius, I'm converted. Yes. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:04:14
Thanks. Um, maybe. Do you want to tell us a little bit more background on either of the poems?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:24
Yeah, sure. So right, so this this point, suicide of boy and he is at the altar by the worship. I'm trying to to address a number of issues in this plan in our culture in the Caribbean and you know elsewhere in the world, mothers are viewed as sacrosanct. In many instances, a father will be called But very quickly for being violent, but mothers generally are not called out in the same way. And a significant number of boys in the country, Jamaica are abused by mothers, and there are usually no consequences for mothers. And I wanted to highlight that particular issue in this poem. But I've always also wanted to write a poem about how I tried to get my mother's attention by threatening to commit suicide, and how indifferent my mother was, towards me. And towards pretty much any any thing that I did to get her to pay me attention, and how this this didn't make it into playing, but how this drove me into the bushes where as a 15 year old or so I tied a rope around my, my neck. And but I couldn't, I couldn't do it. But, you know, her inability, I would say, more than resistance or inability to see me, forced me there. But I really want us in the Caribbean, to begin to have a conversation about mothering. And about the fact that mothers need to be scrutinized in the ways that others are scrutinized in our culture.

Alison Cebulla 1:06:35
Interesting. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:06:39
that's an excellent point Julius because I mean, we revere our mothers, it again, comes back down to the whole family structure coming out of slavery, the fact that the men went around, and the woman often looking for help with the child that they have now ended up with another child and another child. And now that one of our independent senators Who's an attorney and family law specialist, she she called out some of the members of parliament, I think it was last year, she said, because she had been approached by women who had, as she put it, help children, you know, they went to a parliamentarian to get help to deal with some injustice or housing need, or whatever it is. And instead of getting help alone, unbiased, they ended up getting pregnant, you know. And it's something that we revere, that our mothers will do anything, to put food on the table, to keep the family together. But not every mother is like that. And we've had incidents where mothers have been arrested and prosecuted for murdering their children. I remember doing an interview with a lady who can pay for the postpartum depression, she took the life of her child and attempted to take her own life. And that was because having been separated from our own mother for decades, and now having that relationship restored, her mother was separating from her again, you know, she just could not deal with the the hurt, and the pain. But we do have, unfortunately, the need to balance the equation, as Julius is suggesting, which is why it's so very often I find that we genderized everything, when we should simply humanize it. We're talking about human beings who have been hurt, who have been broken who have needs. It doesn't matter whether they're tall, short, men, woman they have needs. And if we don't address those things, they may act in ways which would harm themselves or another human being. And we have to be aware of that. We have to be sensitive to that. If not, we will see rates of infanticide increase and that's not something that anyone wants. Certainly isn't. So Julius, thank you so much for highlighting that issue. Yeah. And for being transparent in sharing your story. I think anyone listening who can identify with this would be touched deeply and inspired. Because I definitely, yeah, definitely. I'm inspired by you, Julius.

Alison Cebulla 1:09:32
Yeah. To kind of I mean, respond to Adriana what your words were speaking about because and you and I kind of talked about how the patriarchy hurts both men and women. And when you look at like, let's say we want to try and blame a lot of violence on on the whole earth is perpetrated by men, you know, but if you want to, then you want to say like, well, how you know, if you're looking at aces that there may have been violence perpetrated to this boy at some point by his mom. Well, why did she perpetrate that violence? Well, yeah, it was perpetrated to her maybe by a man you've all heard. It's just like, yes. Yeah, it's everyone is hurting everyone is being from the patriarchy.

Anne Sherry 1:10:20
Yes. Yeah, hurt people hurt people.

Alison Cebulla 1:10:26
Quick science corner, I did find a study from British Medical Journal published in 2021. Looks like it was done by UNICEF. It's called co occurring, violent discipline of children and intimate partner violence against women in Latin America and the Caribbean, a systematic search and secondary analysis of national data set. So it's looking at the relationship, the intersection between violent discipline, which is physical punishment, and or verbal aggression, of children and intimate partner violence, which is IPv, against women. And the study aimed to determine how many Latin American and Caribbean countries had national data on CO occurring IPv and violent discipline in the same household, and how estimates compared and whether violent discipline was significantly associated with IPv. And so, nine countries had eligible data sets. And I think they're kind of saying we do need more data on this. And in almost all countries, children in IPv, affected households experienced significantly higher levels, and odds ratios of physical punishment and verbal aggression, whether IPv occurred during or before the past year. So just kind of affirming what we were saying about these cycles of violence, that hurt people hurt people. So check that out. And then of course, just like we were saying, this is contextual. So even when we look at personal level violence, it's all within the context of community level, country level, and historical trauma, especially as perpetrated by white settler colonial is capitalism, and neoliberalism.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:27
Well, one of the things that I have been trying to do, Adrian, to and from others in the Caribbean, is to get this conversation about gender based violence to be a bit more balanced. I think that the focus on women are very, very important. And I think women have made significant gains, but unfortunately, many of those gains at the expense of males, particularly boys, and can we speak about gender based violence in the Caribbean, it is usually seen really as a synonym for violence against woman. And this is not a small matter, because I would say 95% of the billions of dollars that are poured into gender based violence programs every year actually go to women's programs are programs for girls. And men and boys are neglected. There are clear consequences. In in my experience from the difficult challenges I had growing up with an abusive mother and abusive teachers and an abusive sister. I have struggled in relationships with intimacy. I am a single man, no, one of the reasons for that, because I find it very, very difficult to be with a woman. And in early years, when I was just beginning to process my trauma. A woman would say something to me, that would remind me of my mother, and that would send me over the rails. I was never a violent person physically, but emotionally, I just couldn't handle the humiliation. The humiliation is a big thing. I have encouraged I keep trying to encourage Americans that in this conversation, they need to speak about women's violence against boys find this a violent country as it relates to men perpetrating violence against women, but these are the boys who grew up to become men and to become violent against women. If this is not a part of the absolutely, then I don't think that we are going to achieve the lofty goals that we have in terms of GBD equality.

Alison Cebulla 1:14:47
Really excellent point.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:48
It goes back to that the blind spots. We all have blind spots. And I think what what we're seeing, as Julius rightly mentioned, you know, there's the policy element is driving the spending, the selection of programs, it's creating this myth that we have this, we have the solution, we know what to do. And this is global, right, because this is coming from the UN is coming from various factions. And at the end of the day, if we look back for the past 30 or so years, we still have the same or even greater levels of violence being perpetrated. So, clearly, we do not have the solution, we have not found the silver bullet. All right. My entry into like social related issues, really goes back to interacting with people who are incarcerated, whether it was as an assistant to an attorney who was defending them, or doing prison ministry, social type of interventions with them and their families. And I cannot grasp any concept that says, if we want to address a situation, we only invest in the victim. That makes no sense

Alison Cebulla 1:16:14
to agree to 1000 1000. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:16:19
yeah. So we have to balance it. And we have to look at definitions. So the definition of gender based violence, for instance. And again, as Julie said, it's taken to be violence against women. So let's just isolate the definition from the convention. And we realize that this pattern of behavior is unacceptable, regardless of who perpetrated, regardless of whom it affects, it is unacceptable behavior, right. And if we stop gender rising it and focus on the fact that the behavior itself is unacceptable. And we ensure that we do not allow any room for this behavior to become normalized, don't allow any room for it to be deemed acceptable, if it is perpetrated by this person, or this type of person. And if the victim is that person, that's where we're missing this. That's where we're missing this. Because men are hurt by men, women are hood by women, some of the most painful things that a woman could ever hear being said to her, is not set to her by another man by a man or is being said by another woman. I grew up with a dozen hands, right? I'm telling you, women have been cruel to other woman for a long time. And that has to stop violence by girls in schools, whether it's in a convent, or in a high school, or whatever it is. It is endemic, but no one talks about that we talk about how boys are fighting in the streets and what, but goods are fighting as well. So we need to take a step back and really identify what are we trying to accomplish here? Are we trying to label people? Are we trying to create a greater divide between the sexes? Are we trying to bring about hope and healing in everybody's life? Regardless of who they are really like that? Because if we're trying to do the latter, then we should be going about it differently. Right? really needs to be going about it. Well, I

Alison Cebulla 1:18:37
think this is a really great direction. I think what I wanted to ask both of you before we do the feelings game, the fun feelings and the recipes

Anne Sherry 1:18:47
I'm about

Alison Cebulla 1:18:51
to get our coat Yeah, is just that if you could each name something that's in That's like going really well, that's inspiring you in this movement right now to kind of end on that note, like what what's working?

Unknown Speaker 1:19:07
Well, I was gonna go, I was invited to join a task force on character education by the Minister of Education in Jamaica, between 2007 and 2017, to make us spend over 1 trillion Jamaican dollars on various programs at risk youth with very negligible results, no success whatsoever. And I was invited to join this task force that is trying to create a character education program. One of many attempts since 1992, more than 20 attempts have failed. And I spent with others a few psychologists the first few months trying to convince the team to focus on trauma informed care that they should be a trauma informed character education program took a while. But I believe we managed to succeed in bringing awareness to the importance of trauma, and how trauma is linked to many of the problems we have in Jamaican schools violence, and low academic performance and so on. And so now and we conducted research, which I co authored with Dr. Herbert Gale, and another scholar University was Ms. And now we have a small body of work to support the implementation of a trauma informed programs. So I'm excited that this conversation is taking place in Jamaican society, and I'm hopeful that something good will come out of it.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:50
That's great. Wow. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:53
Yes,

Alison Cebulla 1:20:54
Adrian, do you have one,

Anne Sherry 1:20:55
Adrian top that.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:00
This is 2022. For the past two years, we have all been exposed to trauma, tragic loss and grief. I can't even imagine what a lot of people who have lost multiple family members to COVID are going through right now. I can't imagine what people who have lost their livelihoods who have had to go into bankruptcy who have lost their homes, what they are going through right now. My hope is that, because of the awareness of the who, who has become everyone's daddy, for the past two years, right? Because they've been speaking so much more about trauma, because there's a greater understanding that many of us are dealing with a lot more than we can handle. And it's not only the fact of COVID, it's the news media, the bombardment from social media, a lot of people are just plain worried. We have to come up with something that is more definitive, something that hopefully will be a lot more targeted, strategic and effective. All of the money, all of the research that went into identifying a way to deal with COVID, we can marshal that and help people now I hope so come a lot more aware of how do we deal with trauma? How do we prevent it, primary prevention is the first thing on my heart. Right? It means that we have to raise people to be different to be much more compassionate. And that's one of the things, you know, starting the East Caribbean community, the aim is not only to have a trauma informed, but a more compassionate Caribbean, where we really care about each other, and what we say to each other. I mean, just how we treat another human being matters. And I hope that that awareness is going to come out of what we've all been living through this, quote unquote, hell on earth, for the past two years. So I have hope, because of how bad this has been. I have hoped that coming out of this, this would be a catalyst for more research than some of the gains that we saw, such as banks and groceries opening an hour earlier, so that the elderly and the disabled can get in and to do their business. I hope that never goes away. Yeah, with the desire to reach out to your fellow human being, because we've seen an explosion of giving in Trinidad and Tobago and people who don't have much, but wanting to give something to someone who has less. And that has been a catalyst because of COVID. I hope that never goes away. So this whole back to normal, I don't want to go back to what was that was toxic, clean and simple. It was toxic. Yeah. And we have to be willing to acknowledge that and to move forward with a much greater degree of compassion. So that we love each other, we help each other and we'd be a better Caribbean as a result. So that's my home.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:32
Yes,

Alison Cebulla 1:24:34
yeah. So recipes. We didn't we forgot. So what were y'all making at home alone when you were younger? Alright, so yes. Do you want to go first?

Unknown Speaker 1:24:49
Yes. So I still have a craving for this interestingly. So when things are tight, when I was on my own as a 14 year old, not much to eat. There are times when I had just a little bit of floor and some thought, and I would just use that. So I would make a fried dumplings in Jamaica fried dumplings are very, very popular. But usually if you're making it that sort of traditional way, of course you use baking powder, some people use a little bit of butter, a little bit of milk. But for me it was just thought, the flour and some cooking. And if I didn't have cooking, I'll just use the pot it was outside on a woodfire. And it would be just just that and it was glorious. I loved it, I loved it then and I still make absolutely no shame in my version. Sounds Allison oil

Anne Sherry 1:26:01
and if you don't have oil well

Unknown Speaker 1:26:11
for me, it was more traditional peanut butter. And just about anything, whether it was different types of jelly or jam or a slice of cheese, especially when my mom baked. And we would like strategize so that when she went to her room, we would lift. This is an image that came back to me during a job interview and I just erupted in laughter We would lift the cloth that you had, you know, the bakes covered over and try to get one so that when she lifted it, just a check, she wouldn't see that. Those were missing. So down to the back. And it always tasted so extremely good. It was warm. Whether it was just with butter, but with peanut butter so that it sticks to the roof of your mouth. A slice of cheese that melts in it. Yeah. Good memories.

Alison Cebulla 1:27:15
Good. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Okay, are you guys ready for the feelings gay?

Unknown Speaker 1:27:24
Hey, so

Anne Sherry 1:27:26
it's gonna win. I can tell ya, it's not a competition.

Alison Cebulla 1:27:37
It's not a competition

Okay, so we'll start with, we'll start with Julia. So I have in front of me like a big wheel that has all the feelings and I still need to do this where I put it in just a random word generator and it just gives us one but I just haven't done it yet. So just I'm I'm gonna have my finger go around the edge of the wheel. So just tell me when to stop. And that's the feeling word that you'll get and then you'll share when you felt the feeling recently of what it felt like in your body. Does that sound

Unknown Speaker 1:28:11
good? Okay, all right.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:15
Or you could write a poem about it.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:16
Okay. Okay, tell me when to stop. Okay, stop now. Okay, in fury ated.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:36
When did I I haven't feel infuriated in in a while. Give me a second. Let me think, well, this is great. Right? I haven't felt infuriated. You know,

Alison Cebulla 1:28:58
it's good. I think it's good.

I think I feel infuriated a lot. That's like my name, my natural state

Unknown Speaker 1:29:11
baseline. Okay, let me let me use this example. So I have to go way back, I have to go way back. For this. As a part of my, my journey to find myself or to create a new version of myself. I was a member of a number of churches throughout my, my childhood, maybe six or seven. And I remember I became a Jehovah's Witness at one point. And I remember going to follow the elders and telling them about my dream to go to university and to study. And in some parts of the world witnesses are very much against it. You become a preacher, you go on the street and you do the work of proselytizing. And I remember quite vividly how he, he told me that not only should I not go to university, but I wasn't capable of going to university and performing. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:30:21
now we all feel it. Yeah, right. Oh.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:31
Um, so I feel like I feel like in large measure my, and this is not a great thing, right? Because I listened to your podcast about the Messiah Complex, you know how, in response to some of these difficulties, we try to become this much larger version of ourselves and to save everybody in the process. But in large measure, much of my effort to make a different version, create a different version of myself has been in response to being told that I was worthless or not good enough that I couldn't make it. And then this focus that I have now on trying to make the world a better place, whatever that means, is connected to that as well. So that's it for me. Thank you.

Alison Cebulla 1:31:25
Thank you What does infuriated feel like in your body?

Unknown Speaker 1:31:34
Just just anger really is what I feel when I feel infuriated. It's so difficult for me to desire for revenge, a desire to show that I am invisible, that I'm worthy. Usually when I feel infuriated, it's a response to people making me feel invisible or invisible. lysing making me feel as though I'm worthy or good enough. That more than anything else is what makes me feel that way.

Alison Cebulla 1:32:16
Thank you. For me, I tend to feel anger in my fists. Do you have that at all?

Unknown Speaker 1:32:23
Oh, that's what you mean.

Alison Cebulla 1:32:26
Do you like where you are? I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:32:30
oh, that's what you mean. Yeah. I don't think I feel it anymore. But I did when I was much younger. In fact, I used to sleep with my head faced in the wall. And in one of my nightmares, I punched the wall so hard. I almost broke my arm. I'm trying to write a plan about how even though I sleep with a clenched fist. It's something that I'm very conscious of. I see with anger. My hands are always folded in a fist that feels like I'm about to do something violent or protect myself. So in that sense, that's what you mean.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:16
I want to hear that poem when you have it. Yes. Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:24
Yeah. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:27
Okay. infuriate man.

Anne Sherry 1:33:29
Yeah. Thanks. Like, shake it off.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:36
Shake. Okay, Adrian, are you ready? Okay, so just tell me when to stop. Stop. Helpless.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:51
Oh, wow. Well, I think when the power dynamics are against me, and I could revert to past behavior.

Alison Cebulla 1:34:11
Quick note from here on out. We do not have Julius his audio just due to his internet connectivity, but he was here with us when we recorded this.

Unknown Speaker 1:34:20
But I've chosen not to. I feel helpless. You know, what I know that if I be my full self, whether that's standing in a particular way, taking a stand or seeing something that would bring whatever this situation is to an abrupt end, but it would be a step back and it would definitely cause pain. And I feel helpless because it means that I am not in quote unquote control. But it also means that I have decided not to surrender control to that infuriation You know that frustration as the case may be? So that is, yeah, sometimes that happens, because over the years of living that by taking a particular stance, sometimes it becomes a distraction. So, it's not any more what the other person did, it becomes about my response to what the other person did, you know? So, learning that it means Okay, be silent. Watch, listen, and wait. And invariably, the situation resolves itself. I'm vindicated. And often, simply because I chose not to see anything that may have been a revision past behaviors and past attitudes and so forth. And coming out of it, I've, I feel that there's been a level of growth, a little more maturity, a little more understanding and awareness. So the helplessness doesn't last too long. Thank God.

Alison Cebulla 1:36:34
And what does it does it feel like anything? in

Unknown Speaker 1:36:39
it? I don't know it, it feels almost like a sense of feeling weak. And then, you know, because it's like, okay, if it's a physical situation. So for example, I was in a place, a hardware store strange. And this guy, a complete stranger walks up to me. And he starts being abusive. And I'm like, I know, I don't know, what's all. So it's like, resisting the temptation to deal with it in a manner similar to his behavior, and realizing that's going to create a bigger problem and having to subdue that. So that's an internal thing of trying to push this thing down, and to take deep breaths without it being visible, that I'm taking deep breaths. Okay.

Alison Cebulla 1:37:38
So it feels like something down in your body. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:43
Because you're trying to suppress desire to deal with a situation or say something that would be meeting fire with fire, you know, so there's that initial feeling of helplessness, because essentially, what I have to do is trust God to work this out, trust that this person's behavior is going to simmer down. And it did, I mean, just abruptly, just at the point where I was already scanning the walls at things that I could use to address the

Unknown Speaker 1:38:18
hardware. A lot.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:24
His whole attitude abruptly changed. He was apologetic, and I just left, you know, so it's like, okay, I may feel helpless, because I don't want to, quote unquote, help myself in this situation in the wrong way. Because I realized I have a lot to lose, you know, in the sense of career wise and stuff. Somebody else doing something. It's not going to be honest. Yeah, but I have a lot to lose and my family, embarrassing them and stuff like that. So those are things that tend to run through my mind, which is a lot different from what's you don't think about so the feeling of helplessness is ready as a result of that. Okay. And then,

Alison Cebulla 1:39:18
yeah, it's interesting because, like, almost here that you all like you're saying, You're that you feel helpless. But I'm like, sounds like you feel like also very empowered to like, choose your reaction and response.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:31
exists. Exactly. And that has come over time. And again, there was a time in my life. I could feel love only for my mom, sometimes my sister, everybody else. It did not exist. I had nothing but a coolness in my heart.

Alison Cebulla 1:39:48
And we have an episode about hating everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one of

Anne Sherry 1:39:53
my favorite things

Unknown Speaker 1:39:53
and that is what comes to mind. I don't want to go back there. I don't want to Go back there because that person was unhealthy. And therefore that feeling of helplessness as if could I be heading back there and of course the power I realized that I have I have the power to choose I have the power to choose. And with ancient wisdom you realize that you think about your choices through a particular lens. What are the consequences going to be 510 15 years down the road? If I say this if I do this, so, yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:40:37
thank you Adrian. Thank you for helpless Yes. Okay, are you ready

Unknown Speaker 1:40:44
help us okay. All right. Okay, tell me when to spy stop

Alison Cebulla 1:40:54
victimized

Unknown Speaker 1:40:57
Oh, Lord,

Alison Cebulla 1:40:58
this is heavy today can you get a happy

Anne Sherry 1:41:04
feelings we'll victimized Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I got one. Okay. Okay, okay. Um, I was having a couch delivered. I finally invested in new furniture for my office when I moved. Been about 15 years. And there was something with that they got the delivery address wrong. And they were delivering it to my house and I had called earlier in the day and made sure that they knew and they were like, yes, we got it. Okay, we've contacted the driver, blah, blah, blah. But the driver was new, doesn't answer her phone. And she was pissed. And she went to the other place. And anyways, Tom sent her down the road to the office it's only a mile away, but she got out of the car out of the big van and it was very stressful and she was blocking cars and blah blah blah. And she just went after me like I did the wrong thing I should have known and I started to that I Adrian I wish I could have I got to the Adrian place but I was like let's go oh, so I was like look so I started to like so the victimization didn't last I didn't stay there too long but it was this kind of like and even as I speak about it right now it's there's a lot of tingling running through my body you know like just just a lot of energy running but I was like wait a minute she's had a terrible day I can tell it you know here I am getting this couch and you know whatever things look good in my world maybe to this person she is obviously stressed out and I went all full Adrian on her I stopped I was like oh, wow, you've had an awful day, huh? Yeah, it's awful. You know, and it just turned immediately you know, just a whole thing turn but the victimization was just a lot of energy and a lot of Yeah, so that's it.

Alison Cebulla 1:43:38
They did do was okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:42
It was a coherent feeling. Yeah, what did What does victimization

Alison Cebulla 1:43:46
feel like in the body?

Anne Sherry 1:43:50
It was that it was that um, for me it was a it was almost this disappearing feeling. I don't know how to describe it, but I got very disembodied, like very tingly. panicky. Yeah, very. Yeah, it's the it's like my insights just became very disorganized. Like I was sort of shocked almost Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:44:18
All right. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:21
You're too okay.

Alison Cebulla 1:44:25
Tell me when to stop.

Anne Sherry 1:44:26
Okay, stop.

Alison Cebulla 1:44:29
Oh, I got a positive one. Sorry everyone.

Anne Sherry 1:44:32
Oh yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:44:47
okay, so the one I got is curious. So I mean, this one is super easy. The most recent time I have felt curious is right here on this call. You know, it's such a blessing to get to interview amazing guests every week. And I have felt very curious to learn about your experiences and expertise is so Julius and Adrian. So, you know, this whole last hour, I've been feeling very curious. And if I check in and see what that feels like, I think it's like very heart centered. I think, um, curiousness for me is feeling like warm, warm hearted, you know, and also, I think it's also a feeling of safety. I don't think that I'm able to feel curious if I don't feel safe. So there's this like, stability in my body like I'm, I feel safe, I feel still I feel present and then the warm heartedness of feeling curious. Beautiful so that was the fun feelings game

Unknown Speaker 1:46:09
yeah, at least one of us had a fun a nice game. Yeah. It helps you to analyze. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:46:18
so I think that's

Anne Sherry 1:46:20
a big part of resolving drama. Like we got to we got to feel if you feel nothing's real. You gotta feel you don't care. Right? Yeah. So we're Yeah, we're, we're practicing on air. Practicing. It's hard. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:46:33
Well, okay. Thank you so much for joining us. Yes. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:46:38
It's been a pleasure. On behalf of Julio

Unknown Speaker 1:46:46
Well, I've always thought his strength when people say when we raise it

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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