24 - Mature for Their Age: The Parentified Child Explained—with guest Madeliene Warren, therapist
We interview Madeleine Warren, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) about parentified children. This is a relationship children have with their parents in which the child takes on the parent’s role of emotional caretaking in the absence of the parent doing this for the child. This can result in children being labeled “mature for their age” or “an old soul”. These children often grow up feeling that they may not even have any needs, which Madeleine shares with a humorous and personal story.
Madeleine Warren has a private practice in Evanston, Illinois where she works with individual adults and couples, many of whom have a trauma history and/or histories of childhood parentification. She is also an Assistant Trainer for the IFS Institute, and runs IFS Consultation Groups for trained IFS therapists. She has a life partner who is a survivor, and no children, although she has been honored to offer some re-parenting and to facilitate inner-parenting with her clients.
Show Notes
Intro:
- Our podcast Facebook page
- What My Bones Know by Stephanie Foo (book)
- Alison's book review of What My Bones Know
- Our new book club!! You're invited! What My Bones Know
- Psychosis an schizophrenia podcast
Interview:
- An Adult Children's Guide to What's Normal (book)
- The Night Watchman by Louise Erdrich (book)
- Enneagram 1 type
- Messiah Complex - our episode on this (Ep23)
Resources from Madeleine:
https://ifs-institute.com/practitioners
Here is a link to another podcast (for abuse trauma survivors) interview I did on the benefits of IFS and self-led healing.
Here is a list of movies that show the type of childhood parentification that I experienced (single mom whose life is always in chaos and/or flux and the daughter or son that is trying to keep things stable and together and typically includes some type of 'best friend or confidante' dynamic that makes the parentified child feel both valued and burdened, and ultimately leads to the desperate need for the child to differentiate and separate (e.g., I left my mom at the age of 15 to live with my Dad who didn't bother to try and parent me which I wouldn't have tolerated at that point, but gave me a place to stay until I moved out on my own at age 17.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbleweeds_(1999_film)
https://www.amazon.com/Way-Back-Steve-Carell/dp/B00DHB41JA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaids_(1990_film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anywhere_but_Here_(film)
Transcript
Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.
Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.
Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get
Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend you are wanted
Alison Cebulla 1:13
here.
All right. Hey, Ayaan.
Anne Sherry 1:26
Hi, Alison.
Alison Cebulla 1:28
So first up, we have business. Yes, we got some business, some great reviews. And we just want to start by saying thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the bottom of our hearts for listening and supporting our podcast because we would not be able to have a podcast with all of you who are our listeners at all? Tell us about them.
Anne Sherry 1:50
Okay, we have from friend that's referring to this as friend therapy, which is also free therapy. Right? Right. Right. So that's another reason like this is free therapy. Therapy. That's right. So here it goes. These women are a great combo of relatable, authentic, open and knowledgeable. Feels like hanging out with your friends. If your friends are all therapists, you find yourself thinking me too. When you hear their personal stories, and then magically coming out the other side with new insight and a laugh to boot. We love the last two boots. Yeah,
Alison Cebulla 2:29
we're trying to do some things I think and like should we be laughing at all
Anne Sherry 2:34
this? But I every time we have finished I am running overshot. Like did I really laugh about that? Did I really share that memory? Am I just a dissociated mess, which we'll talk about we all of
Alison Cebulla 2:52
us? Yes. Okay. Yes, yes. Okay, we got another review. Take it away.
Anne Sherry 2:56
This is from Dow Dow Powell. important conversations. This podcast delves deeply into some of the most difficult aspects of life and being human. This is so there is so much to learn from the amazing hosts, and each of their guests all done with compassion, honesty, and humor, I highly recommend. Thank you. Hey.
Alison Cebulla 3:19
So we have a couple of new exciting announcements. We have a brand new MailChimp, e newsletter. If you're the type of person that wants to be notified via email. Every time we have a new episode, that's a weekly email that goes out that just tells you like, Hey, new episode, here we go with a link to our show notes. We might occasionally put other news in there as well. But it's mostly just a pot like an episode announcement. And yeah, that you can sign up for that by going to our website. It's right on the homepage, you'll see it says do you want to hear about us by email, and go ahead and sign up there if you want to. And then we also have a new Facebook page. So please do go follow us on Facebook. Those are new. We are also on Instagram and LinkedIn. But those are we've had those but follow us there too. So we have gotten feedback from a lot of listeners, that you all are loving the content however you wanted more structure from some of our segments. So we are we've put it we're doing it. We're doing it. Thank you for the feedback. And so
Anne Sherry 4:27
what's happening right now you're actually in the moment of structure creation, right outlines
Alison Cebulla 4:33
this shit. Yeah. Okay. So so this is the part in our structure where we talk about what we're reading, what we're watching what we're listening to, and so excited because we are listening to the best frickin book on the planet.
Anne Sherry 4:53
I'm just shaking my head in a good way.
Alison Cebulla 4:56
I want to cry right now. Just just Thinking about
Anne Sherry 5:01
the book, say the fucking oops, a fifth book.
Alison Cebulla 5:06
It's called what my bones know, by Stephanie foo. And it just came out on Tuesday. And I wrote a review for this book that Stephanie ended up reading. I tagged her in it on Instagram. She said, she's liking our Instagram posts, just like in ourselves. Yeah, as a woman. I want to be friends with her. I want to interview her. And she's just amazing. I fully expect to see her on Oprah. And have this be like Oprah's Favorite book ever? Very soon. Yeah, it's gonna have this world. Yes, it came out Tuesday. Quick summary. It's like, she was 30, when she kind of had a meltdown, realize she had complex post traumatic stress disorder, which just means lots and lots of stressful childhood events over and over again, complex means that happen over and over and over. It wasn't just one like PTSD is like one bomb dropping or something. You're at war or a car crash or Yeah, but see PTSD, complex, PTSD is just so much stress all the time that your body actually starts to break down. Because it can't deal with that much fight or flight response that nervous system activation. So this is her healing journey of discovering what the hell happened in her childhood, which is devastating. And how she started healing and where she is now. And it is so beautifully written. Yes.
Anne Sherry 6:38
And yes, Alison texted me, you had gotten in touch with me twice. She was like, I'm serious, stop, whatever you're reading stuff, whatever you're doing right now, whatever you're reading whatever is happening, and listen to or read this book. And I did. And it resulted in me crying in my kitchen this morning, while I was making oatmeal, saying with actual feeling, rather than just stating it as a dissociated fact that I wasn't loved. In my childhood, I just wasn't. That is a fact. There are many complexities to that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But just to state it. And guess what, guys? I got a hug from my husband and my kid.
Alison Cebulla 7:23
Love that for you so much. And I felt
Anne Sherry 7:27
better. Yes, there was shame. But I did feel better. But like, there was something about the way she's writing the book. And just normalizing how long this takes. I've been on this journey. Well, since it happened, but my 20s was when I first started to realize like something might write some ain't right. And I've tried tons of different therapies, like look for the quick fixes all the bubble, blah, blah, blah. And here I am entering another stage of life being in my 50s It's weird. I feel like I'm circling around to another level of healing, which is great. I know, this is not a destination. But yeah, that book broke. I'm gonna say the F word here broke up. Fucking shit open today. Yesterday, best way in the best way completely. She normalized. And I was like, Yes, I'm doing all the things. And it just takes as long as it takes. It just reaffirmed that and that I'm not. I think as a therapist, sometimes you start becoming an observer and you forget to keep jumping in there and doing your work. And sometimes I'm like, I'm just taking a break. I'm just out here driving off in the sun. And then brakes are important. But yeah, it just takes a long time. And it really is, it really does have impacts in all areas of your life, health relationships, how you communicate. Can you tell the truth? Can you actually stay in there with people?
Alison Cebulla 8:56
And you figure out conflicts and love that you haven't that? I think because you haven't got I finished the book yesterday, and you've started? Yeah, when she gets into therapy with this amazing therapist that I that I've met, I met her therapist, I know him. And I was like, I was like, we do all trauma healing roads. Do they all lead back to this one therapists like if he could do is he he's like, it's Dr. Jacob homme, the relational healing and the like, understanding it's the self awareness to know why did I just say that? Why did I just do that? You have to you have to be curious. They talk about to be curious.
Anne Sherry 9:36
Oh, and Claudia helped us that that is a mantra that I live. Can you be curious about that? Can we study that? You know, so? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 9:45
So I posted this review on two pieces connection. Yesterday. I'll link to in the show notes. And that Stephanie's read it she reposted it she said she loved it. She said it made her laugh. So that's what we're trying to do here healing trauma with humor. So that has just felt so good. And her book, I went, I went to a yoga class and just picked a nice dark corner to practice in and just cried and yoga because my experiences were not quite as violent as hers hurt my childhood experience, but there definitely was some, some sad, some sad punishment, things happening. And some, you know, like, there's like a way to parent like in an authoritarian way that's like very punishing to children that I think we almost all share. I only think that we're just now growing out of that, like, don't just punish your kid all the time.
Anne Sherry 10:42
Yeah, yeah, I think what starts to get triggering for me around this is like having a kid so late in life. And so I am able to see him blossom and grow with being attuned and seeing him and giving a shit about what he's feeling, thinking doing. You know, so it's, and you'd literally I used to say this, I was like, I can see him expand when I just noticed him, like, Hey, I see that that thing was hard. Or I'm really appreciating this about you. It really felt like I could see him get bigger if that like almost his energy get bigger, or him just inhabit himself more or something. And I'm like I, I was, so it's hard, my little ones. And I think people likely resonate when you're parenting. Young kids is like you also your little unpatented parts inside are like, oh, I want some of that. I want some of that. So yeah, yeah, there's this tension of like, being really happy for your kid. But also like, Oh, shit.
Alison Cebulla 11:51
There's parents that are like, that. I know, I can't do that. And I didn't get any of this. That happens. That's just if you're listening, and that's you, we see you and we're holding space for you
Anne Sherry 12:02
completely get into therapy. Get curious about that. Because you're not it's just a reaction to all kinds of ways that you weren't seeing heard. Understood. You know, you gotta you gotta like, have defenses or you won't make it. Yeah, and many people make. Yeah, yeah.
Alison Cebulla 12:25
People get defenses so that they can make it to Brian, which that episode you sent me really quick before we talk about our book club. That episode you sent me I'm like, I sent it to my mom. Let me pull it up. And she listened to it. She loved it. The neurodivergent woman podcast we'll put a link in the show notes psychosis and schizophrenia with Dr. Ivana so thick. It's um, it's, it's if you were curious to learn more about the Kevin that I that we talked about in a few episodes who, who recently passed away and suffered schizophrenia, you must listen to this episode. It's so good. We'll link in the show notes. Very guess. So that's what we're, we're listening to this week and we are deciding people have been asking us if we could do this and we're gonna try it out. You know, we our listenership is still modest, you know, so we'll see who, who Who of you want to come and join us. And we hope a lot of you can and well, but it's just an experiment, but we're gonna do a book club. We're gonna do a live zoom book club for this book. What my bones No. And so we will put that link in the show notes where you can sign up and we'll put it on social media and that you newsletter as well. And so it'll just be like a one hour book club where we'll discuss the book and that'll probably be we'll give people time to read it in a couple of weeks. We'll do it. Even though you should just literally drop everything that you're doing. You should literally drop everything. So sign up for our book club. We want you there if you're listening, you're invited. Okay, this brings us to our newest fun segment which is called the struggle party. And we I should have Kevin write a song
Anne Sherry 14:08
a struggle party song. Oh, just a little jingle Yeah, a little
Alison Cebulla 14:11
struggle party jingle Kevin. If you're if you're listening, we need a jingle. That's my boyfriend everywhere. And he's he's the musician that plays our the music. Okay. Yes. Okay. What is struggle party? Struggle party? Yeah, define it when I
Anne Sherry 14:29
think it is just something that's happened over the week. That felt a little struggling and knowing my avoidance strategy tendencies to just kind of bury it or figure it out on my own. And then probably not let anybody know. It's an invitation to practice letting people know that something was hard and come to my party and witnessed my struggle. II celebrate my struggles. Yeah. So you're not alone with If
Alison Cebulla 15:00
so what was what was the struggle? And we're gonna celebrate that the party so you have one and I do on the mountain?
Anne Sherry 15:09
I do. I do. We were skiing in West Virginia at snowshoe and Tom and I had some big text miscommunication about meeting at the top of the mountain or the bottom of the mountain. I got very attached that he should be at the top of the mountain. My phone died. And we were stuck in what is supposed to happen. So we're kind of like waiting each other out for 15 minutes probably and I'm like ready to divorce
Alison Cebulla 15:33
indignant rage came up. Yes. indignant because because he
Anne Sherry 15:37
because I was right. And he was wrong. Right. Like, I knew what needed to happen. And then my communication got shut down because my phone wasn't charged. So I was loudly berating him for a little August also, I got him on my side. He also hated Tom for this amount of time. We finally had to ski down the mountain and then we're fighting in the lift line. Let us make an a scene.
Alison Cebulla 16:03
Okay, sort of thing. You got to make a scene once in a while. Okay. Yeah, that which
Anne Sherry 16:07
I don't like to do that that
Alison Cebulla 16:10
is taken up on my face
Anne Sherry 16:13
totally. So it wound up that I just basically sent Tom in August. I was like, fine you to go and ski. You're better than me anyways. I'm just gonna ski on my own. I created this, like, Oh, what was me? And they went off. I think I came up with my story that they were glad to be rid of me. I'm a burden. Nobody wants to be around me. All this childhood shed, and secretly hoping that they would text me to ask me to ski with them. And they did not. Because Tom was giving me my space. He believed me.
Alison Cebulla 16:47
Oh, that's funny. You like didn't want her to believe. Party?
Anne Sherry 16:54
Oh, my God, I was dropped right back into it. Okay, yes. So and then you told me to read that damn book. So I started reading the book, I skied half the day and then started reading that book. And this weather system that I was in of nobody wants me on the burden literally lasted all yesterday. And to to this morning, when I got that finally was able to say I wasn't loved, and have some feelings around it. And I got big hugs from Tom and August.
Alison Cebulla 17:31
I know that resolution.
Anne Sherry 17:33
I know. I know. So Alison, what's your struggle party? Now that I've shared,
Alison Cebulla 17:39
mine is really a like a really hard to pinpoint kind of struggle this week of like, feeling like I'm languishing, I put in my notice that work. So I have one week left. So it's like kind of like, I'm in this weird soupy mix this week of like, I'm leaving my job. And there's a lot of mixed feelings. They're a grief because it was my dream job. It has been my dream job, joy, because I'm excited to leave. And like there's real, you know, reasons I wanted to leave. So I there's joy about and relief. So just it's just feeling messy and soupy. And also Kevin is on tour right now for six weeks. And this was his first week gone. So I miss my partner. I miss my
Anne Sherry 18:25
you're doing this transition alone. Kinda.
Alison Cebulla 18:28
Yeah. So I've been feeling like languishing this week. Like I just sat around, read that book cried puzzled. It's been really cold and like my feet. I think I have Raynaud's or something. So like my feet and hands turn blue. Like from the cold like I'm just like,
Anne Sherry 18:46
like low
Alison Cebulla 18:50
it's been getting down to the 30s
Anne Sherry 18:52
Oh my gosh, that is cold. Yeah. Wow. So um, ah,
Alison Cebulla 18:57
so yeah, it's just that's my struggle party. I'm struggling. I'm having a solo solo struggle party and I feel so fucking alone. Ah, maybe like okay, I'm just like, I need it by
Anne Sherry 19:13
now. Well, I'm sending over August and Tom to hug you because it really it really worked. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 19:22
So we're excited to interview
Anne Sherry 19:24
Madeline Warren. She's a ifs internal family systems therapist out of the Chicago area. Yeah, and she does an amazing one of her specialties is working with parental fine what what is called the term is parental FIDE children. She I think she explains that. But essentially, it's when it's when the children have to become the adults, adults in a family and take
Alison Cebulla 19:52
care so to have this episode for you because I think I have a lot of friends and people I know who do not know what this concept is parental education. So, please enjoy this episode. We want to acknowledge that we are holding in our hearts that this terrible thing is happening in Ukraine right now. That's just it's breaking our hearts. And we just acknowledge it and they Yeah, and but please enjoy. We still have to show up and do the work for ourselves even when World War Three is starting so enjoy this episode about parental vacation
Anne Sherry 20:41
yay. Hi everybody we are here with Madeline Warren. I know Madeline through the internal family systems ifs community. She was my What do you call it? assistant trainer? Yes, during a level one training that I was supporting as a program assistant. So MADELINE
Alison Cebulla 21:07
That all sounds very culty by the way, does it sounds like Yes. Ashes the bow? You know?
Anne Sherry 21:13
Oh, yes, yes, I am I on ifs don't become a cold. I'm watching you. Okay. Well, you have to have roles in training. So anyways, the what I loved about you Madeline was your ability to care for all of us that especially the ones that not only the students, but those that were supporting the students you had seemed to have endless capacity for that and your expertise and parental FIDE children, which is our topic for today. So my parts like secretly resonated with yours. And they're also scared, you might like highlight some things that add up my courage. My children don't want to know that they're not the self, that they aren't running the show. They're not the only ones running the show. So if you would just tell us a little bit about you. And then we'll get talking. And then
Alison Cebulla 22:05
we'll ask you about your childhood.
Anne Sherry 22:10
Reason I'm having you on Madeline because
Madeleine Warren 22:12
for all of us therapists and therapists that are out there, of course, we know we have no problem talking about our childhoods. So nice to for your community that's listening to this. I really appreciate your patience and listening to this interview. I'm excited about it. And nice to meet you, Allison and and it's so great to see you again. So I am living in Evanston, Illinois, just north of Chicago home in northwestern I am 56 and I have a private practice for the last six years. And before that I worked for 10 years and community mental health which is very much in the trenches of working with a population that is mostly highly traumatized. And that was a remarkable experience. And then I had enough I think everybody should do it as a therapy.
Alison Cebulla 23:02
Hard Yeah, I
Madeleine Warren 23:04
think everybody should do it. We all need to agreed agree since because it's a population that's so badly in need of good good therapy. So I have a partner my life partner for the last four years met him later in life but that's been wonderful when neither of us ever wanted children and I would have to say that the we have similar reasons for that. We saw our parents do it badly. So we never wanted to do that to a kid ourselves. So here we are both single adults and and love kids but just didn't want to harm anyone.
Anne Sherry 23:43
Great parents.
Madeleine Warren 23:46
That's actually something I realized is that I still think I could have done both. So I am very much a parent for do a lot of re parenting. I would say in my work. I love that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But then they you know, go home and have their own lives.
Alison Cebulla 24:02
Okay, so you shared you shared your age. So I think that that puts you like prime Lakshmi. Yeah. Prime latchkey era. So you were at Gen XOR. So did your parents work? Did you? You know, were you latchkey? Were you urchin or are you a friend?
Madeleine Warren 24:21
Yeah. So I know your community knows those terms. I know latchkey I don't know urgent other than like
Alison Cebulla 24:28
street urchin.
Anne Sherry 24:32
wandering the streets. Didn't have to be home or like not, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. And this I would
Madeleine Warren 24:41
not call myself an urchin I would say, Yeah, I do. Remember I was just talking about this last night I was. My parents got divorced when I was four. And it was just me and my mom for most of my childhood. And I was at the age of nine I was at home alone. Um, I think, yeah, so you know, call me work full time single mom, I don't even think she was getting child support. It was just you know, they were both hippies that that whole court thing that just was she was just glad that he didn't make any problems with me living with her. So basically we're you know, she's living on minimum wage and working full time, but she basically told me just call me when you get home from school lock the door don't answer, you know, and that's the way that was. So yeah, I remember and also in the days when we could travel alone, I would a little sign because I would go visit my dad at the age of nine like I'm traveling alone. So I remember that kind of distinctly.
Alison Cebulla 25:40
Oh, my God. Terrible idea.
Anne Sherry 25:43
In many ways, like, although
Madeleine Warren 25:45
I remember that adults at that time, like were kind of took me under their wing playing with me or something.
Anne Sherry 25:52
Okay. Oh, yeah.
Alison Cebulla 25:55
Yeah, I was like, pretty pretty as a kid, like always wanting to interact with strangers. And it could just be my personality. You know, we're all born with personalities. But I was I'm always thinking in my head like is, but is it because I liked them more than I liked being at home? Who knows? You're interviewing people
Anne Sherry 26:13
to? Maybe I could go live with going live with you? Yeah. As I mentioned on a previous podcast, I used to be at the mall hoping I might and this is no, it sounds terrible, but hoping I get abducted, actually. So that's a terrible thing, which, because I know that's a lot of actual real pain in the world. But that was my little child part that was like, is there anybody here that like, would be better to go home with so yeah,
Madeleine Warren 26:43
and my story's a little different. I do want to say this upfront that my mom was a really fascinating, interesting person. And we always had a positive interaction in terms of, but it was more like peers, or that I was more of a mother. So I would say that I've always liked my mom, and she always adored me, but she just wasn't a good parent. Like, she didn't really get that. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 27:05
Can you tell us more about that? Like, what did that look like that she wasn't the parent? In
Madeleine Warren 27:11
a Yeah, I think she from when I was a very young age, I was just so emotionally empathic. She, she's a survivor of, of, you know, childhood abuse, her family life was really traumatic. I always had a sense of her sadness. She was 19 when she had me. And so she was, you know, she's she, I'll give you a couple of things. She said to me, which, by the way, she normalizes and when I hear them, it's like, that doesn't sound good. So one thing is she said, I wanted the best friends. So I gave birth to one.
Alison Cebulla 27:44
When parents call their kids best friend's such a red flag, that's
Madeleine Warren 27:47
part of, you know, their whole Gilmore Girls, for any of you that are, you know, not to that show. But that was, you know, those kinds of things, any movie about that Mother Child, where they just had that relationship that always was both, you know, resonant, and also a little cringy. At one time, this friend of my mom's came into town to Chicago left me a message and said, Hey, if you have some time, maybe we could get together and your, by the way, your mom worships you. So that word I remember going back, because that was kind of it was like, I was like a little Buddha. I was speaking early, I was reading early. And I just remember, you know, experiences were crisis after crisis. And I would just be there to ground my mom. So we're driving across country again, because some terrible relationship blew up, and I'm reading her a book, you know, the whole way, just kind of, so that kind of stuff.
Anne Sherry 28:42
The responses to that, like, that makes me nervous in my stomach, as you talk about that. Just, you know, like, just that little kid, like trying to take care of the Yeah. And little kid in the adult body, you know,
Madeleine Warren 28:56
right. Yeah. And it was also what I knew. So what's on like, I mean, just, again, for those listeners, it's not like I was thinking, Oh, this is terrible and bad. This was also a way I was valued deeply. And it was all I knew. So I think it's more later in life. This is my therapist parts talk, where you recognize that have a lot of impact, and I can now let myself feel just how scary that was. Some of those things, but at the time, it was just what you did. You know, you just so I have a great story when you're ready. Just go for it. So just to remind myself of just how self reliant, you become as stoic. So I have a wonderful friend, my friend Wendy, and it was our first date as friends. The first time we hung out, and this was some years ago, and we went ice skating, which I had done as a kid fearlessly. And within the first hour, I fell, and I could tell immediately, I've just done something bad might have broken. So I remember just noticing, okay, I've got to go to the hospital like in my mind, just tick, tick tick, this is what he saw. I went to my friend, when do you I didn't know well, it was our first time hanging out. I said, Oh, I'm gonna go to the hospital. Everything's okay. But I'll just be I need to leave. And she was like, what? Do you want me to go with you? No, no, that's fine. I'll be Oh, my God, Madeleine, and drive to the ER. And I was just thinking, as I was telling the story recently, like, that's kind of how it is, you just, you know, you just do what you got to do. And you don't expect that you're gonna get that help or isn't learn how to need that you really don't have that. So that's, I think that's a kind of interesting story. It makes me
Anne Sherry 30:51
I have so many of those to like riding my bikes with my friend going down the hill,
Alison Cebulla 30:56
the one where you told the story? Yeah, yes.
Anne Sherry 31:00
And just I just popped right up. I mean, I, I probably something may or may not have been broken, but it was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. And this poor, you know, but no, that was my when I went down on the boys. There was a hole. Yeah. Anytime I was hurt, okay. Anytime it was like I'd find, you know, it was just so intolerable for people to come near me to try to help.
Madeleine Warren 31:22
Yeah, so actually the kind of support that you would have liked to have gotten, but we gave up on a long time ago. And I think once you do that, it's actually painful to open that up again, the what the wanting to do want the halving of needs, right, like when she learned that you're kind of on your own. And that way, you kind of you normalize that, to the degree that I think even the idea that you would have those needs, I once went to a weekend workshop on needs, from the non from the nonviolent communication people. And if you've heard Marshall Rosenberg, who died some years ago, and I swear, I learned the first couple of hours, I raised my hand. So Well, is it possible that some people just don't have all these needs?
Alison Cebulla 32:03
Incredible, that is incredible.
Anne Sherry 32:06
Oh, you're my hero, Madeleine. I never said that, I probably would have pretended like I had one. So everybody would fucking leave me alone. So,
Alison Cebulla 32:13
um, but there's this book called the adult child, the adult child's guide to what's normal, you know, all those guides from the early 90s or late 80s, or whatever, like the adult children's, whatever, dysfunctional family, you know, that whole series for people with adult children of alcoholics?
Madeleine Warren 32:33
No. Sounds good. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 32:36
And so I'll link to it in the show notes for our listeners, but it's written for adult children of dysfunctional families. Um, and or, you know, alcoholics addicts or other other basically, it's for children with childhood emotional neglect. But before that term had been coined, and there's a, there's one that I just absolutely love called the guide to what's normal. And every single there's like 100, things that normally happen in families. And every single one was a revelation to me, every single item, I was like, that's what happens in a normal family. And I was like, God, I'm so glad to finally know, I wouldn't have known.
Anne Sherry 33:18
So Madeleine, can you maybe highlight because this isn't the only old that you're sort of neglect, where you have the best friend is it kind of the only way to becoming a parental FIDE child, but it's, it's kind of a particular role in a family, because I grew up in to say, you know, my brother became completely dysregulated, highly mentally ill externally, which probably reinforced some of my becoming a parental FIDE child, but just what are other things that people don't know, hallmarks of childhood that sort of lead somebody to head into this parental FIDE role?
Madeleine Warren 33:54
Yeah, and again, for those of you just the word parental FIDE is simply as kind of a role reversal. So feeling more like the parent and the parent and my mother has actually acknowledged this, right, like, but she does it with this sort of humor, which I sometimes need at this point, you know, she's in her 70s It's all good, we're fine. But so that idea though, that I was trying to be the adult for the adult that really didn't seem to be very competent as an adult. And I remember one workshop I have lots of workshop stories where these revelations but but I remember just bursting out and this was about both my parents those people were idiots like I was just in this like process. And some part of me wasn't even seeing my parents as parents. It was just those people that are around dry, you know, and so I that was startling to just have that be almost like a distance like, you're not even. And I even now if I'm upset and I have learned because prettified child children tend to learn, I don't, my needs are, don't worry about me, I can take care of my needs, and I can take care of your needs. And of course, let's check out some of the agenda for the prettified. Child, even if it's not consciousness, if I take good enough care of you, maybe you'll be able to finally take good care of me. So I just want to name that. But I think that really is what our underlying agenda is. But we forget that over time, because the doesn't happen. Right? So then we actually then that then you find yourself asking the facilitator of a workshop? Well, I don't think I have needs. So of course, we just learned to, in some ways, sublimate that, right. So anyway, for so that's my definition of printify gel in the case, for me, that that role reversal, and I would say that there's gifts, and there's, you know, tremendous, there's a lot of wounding and there's also gifts, I mean, the fact that I can be so self reliant, I am good in a crisis, the training that I did with you and I love caring for people and then nurturing quality that actually is what what I noticed. And this is where for internal family systems, not a call, just as a way of, I'm not talking about the cult aspect, which it has, but just the value of the model is. So this idea that when we are taking care of people from a sense of urgency, from a sense of I've got to make you okay, I've got to make this okay, versus what I really noticed in the training and is that that more heart LED or when we call and IFS self LED. So it the gift of that open heart, that ability to care for others, it's a lovely gift. But if it's co opted, and and turned into survival, this was my survival. Right? So I think over time how we heal some of that is to turn that requirement for survival into just what is a gift, a kind of a natural instinct for us, I can see that in both of you just like we are good at attunement. We do know, and we have a nurturing heart. And that comes from that, too. So I just want to say that, but I that's what I've worked on.
Anne Sherry 37:16
Because I want to repeal it. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Madeleine Warren 37:20
That's right. But when it was co opted, and I and I have said, I mean, the pain that I felt as I was used, my mother used me.
Alison Cebulla 37:28
What did she use you for? Could you help our listeners understand that?
Madeleine Warren 37:32
Yeah. As an emotional, you know, I helped her regulate herself.
Alison Cebulla 37:38
Regulate. Yeah, cuz I, here's, here's the thing, Madeline, just about every peer that I know, have this every single one, but they don't see it. Right? Because these emotional forces are invisible. And so you maybe you go visit your parents for the weekend now that you're an adult, and you feel bad when you get home, but you don't know why. You know, so if you could help our listeners who definitely had this, understand what they're feeling, but not seeing, you know?
Madeleine Warren 38:08
Yeah. So, so the question of how I felt used or what deregulation is, yeah. So my mother would end up in these, like, she had difficulty soothing herself. So the main thing that she would do when feelings would get strong, is dissociate. And that word really is about sort of checking out. So if I had strong emotions, I could feel her checking out. I could feel her going away even if she's just sitting right there. Yeah, so even today, I can feel a trigger in my body when my partner like we're close on the couch and he starts yawning I can I mean, I get what it is now, but I can actually start to feel this like he's going away. He's getting bored he's he's doesn't want he's not interested in being here right now. And so I've actually shared that with him like I know that you're just yawning but I'm actually starting to Yeah,
Anne Sherry 38:59
that is some high level shit that will save many partnerships, many marriages. Yeah, just to learn how to speak for what's happening not to not do it. You know, I had a we had Dr. Claudia was saying something. Now I've lost it, but just kind of like being able to speak for it, you know, like some? That's right. A partner would be so angry that a coffee cup was left in a car, and then the car smelled of coffee and it goes straight to I'm not loved. I'm not because I told you not to leave your coffee cup there and then you did it. And then it just heads like it's like a fucking bullet train down to a limiting belief or some belief you have about I'm not loved. I don't have worth bla bla bla bla bla so just what I hear. I
Madeleine Warren 39:44
call it like an echo. Like it just reverberates back to this association. That's so instantaneous. Yeah, so So I got really good. I mean, so she doesn't have to my mother learned how to survive painful abuse of trial. altered by nada tuning. So she went the opposite way. I don't know how bad this is, then I can survive it. I because she was so dissociative and the way she coped, I went the other way. Somebody has to be here, somebody has to know what's going on. Somebody has to attune. So I attuned. And that was actually helpful to her. So when she was upset, I could stay calm and steady. And so again, while that can be a wonderful thing, I was a child. And for me to have strong emotions and not be met with an adult who is again, going back to the word regulate, that can actually sit with you and say, Hey, you're really upset and literally, like, have a hug, or, you know, I'm here that's regulating, then the nervous system can calm down and kind of lean into that emotional support. I did that for her. Yeah, so that's where it was used, because we're my emotional needs. Were just not they couldn't be in the picture.
Alison Cebulla 40:57
Do you feel this might be a very personal question. And you can we can skip it. But do you feel that someone is able to hold space for your emotions now?
Madeleine Warren 41:06
Yeah, I don't think there's any question too personal on this podcast.
Alison Cebulla 41:11
Just in case, the answer was no, we
Anne Sherry 41:13
don't have to. Five we talk about oops. So you may be ready for a story. Okay.
Madeleine Warren 41:23
Yeah, having an autoimmune gastrointestinal disorder, poop is a topic for me all the time. So it's not a question being? I think, Allison, it's a great question. Because in some ways, the survival mechanism for me is about I don't need it. So how do you let somebody in and lean into somebody when you've kind of got this dilemma that my survival actually depends on not needing to lean into it? And you were saying,
Anne Sherry 41:51
pick partners, you pick partners that also kind of mirror your childhood, right? So like,
Madeleine Warren 41:58
and I think I do that, to hope for that redemption, Deke talks about that one of those folks, you know, like, so this time, it'll be different. I would say that my current partner is the best at any and I've had a serial monogamy for since I was in my 17 actually about these in Malaysia never got married either. I didn't say that, but never got married for the same reason you made it look so bad.
Alison Cebulla 42:25
That's right. That's
Madeleine Warren 42:26
fine as far as marriage, so I was like, Okay, I'm not doing that either. You guys suck at this. But anyway, he what I love about the what he can do is if he's really can just sit with me when I'm very upset and crying. And if you remember, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, the whole pop culture book for the women that go in waves, you know, they go into their caves, and they kind of work it out and talk about it later. And some some of us can do that too as women but this wave of emotion where everything is just awful right now. He doesn't try to do anything with that. So there's this openness about just, I'm with you, but he doesn't need to like say I'm with you. He doesn't try to come over and hug me immediately those things and I've had partners that have done that. It's it shuts it all down. Like basically Oh yeah, I've got I'm not supposed to feel this way. Oh, yeah, I forgot you can't handle it. Because a lot of partners. Just, oh, this is hard for me to deal with. So let me calm you down. So for him, it's just sitting with me. And it's just been like a miracle to my boss. Yeah,
Anne Sherry 43:37
I think at the Raleigh Police do remember this little Roly Poly bugs? Yeah, I kind of hardshell and they sort of open up but if you touch them they're like clam up or anything that clams up basically.
Madeleine Warren 43:47
Yeah. And you imagine that and for yourself, so yeah. Oh, yeah. I
Anne Sherry 43:52
mean, one of our tag lines, I think we're going to evolve like at some point maybe next year in two years, we might be like a motion if they're fine. They're okay. Just try them out. But right now we're like emotions are gross, or at least that's my but but the like other families like families with a lot of substance abuse or where the one child just I mean, at some point if once you start taking care it's all kinds of scenarios but I think our culture also reinforces this like I hear lots like the little kid and second grade that's so helpful to the teacher. You're so helpful thank you so much, you know just story a
Alison Cebulla 44:30
story right? Right
Anne Sherry 44:31
right strategy being reinforced not just in the home but like our culture loves helpful.
Alison Cebulla 44:38
Perfect non feeling check non feeling adults.
Madeleine Warren 44:45
Yeah, and we one of the things that was also a difficult part of my job as we moved a lot, so I never got to land anywhere. I don't even remember the schools I was in growing up. I hadn't. This sounds real. This sounds like a nurture in this sad little state. But I had my first friend at 12. That was my, at the age of 12. Was
Alison Cebulla 45:04
my first draw Madeline no really didn't have.
Madeleine Warren 45:06
So what I found some solace in was adults because the teachers always loved me, which of course makes it so much worse for you know, as. Yeah. But yes, I was a
Alison Cebulla 45:18
goody two shoes moniker. Yeah,
Madeleine Warren 45:21
the one that saw me they were the ones that saw that I was bright. And even though I spoke very little at the time, because that was just kind of a safer thing. But yeah, so there was a lot of value in being smart, at least from there. And so if I didn't have any peers to relate to anyway, at least I would, you know, be valued. So yeah, I think you learn what, you know, what, where you get some need met, where you get some value. And we,
Alison Cebulla 45:46
yeah, we tend to value in the United States. Being smart or being precocious like being outside of the peer group, like somehow special over having social skills and having friends. And it was interesting, because I was reading something about the way they raise kids in the Netherlands. And it's in stark contrast, the way they do it here, which is that they don't want their kids they don't teach their kids to read before they get to school or teach their kids special schools skills at home because they want their children to have friends. And I yeah, I had to my, they my parents did teach me reading and math before I went to school. And so in kindergarten, I would have to leave the room and go to a different classroom, while the rest of the kids were learning what I already knew. Well, guess what? You're not gonna have friends.
Anne Sherry 46:36
Right? I struggle with this right now. Because August has a lot of friends. He's very socially adept. He's fun, you know, they did these like Valentine's things or whatever. Like you're so funny. You're a good friend. You're above ah, and I was like, what is his handwriting look like? You know, all these fourth graders had beautiful little handwriting and cursive and August just he just does his handwriting. Pay attention and he can't you know, so I'm just like, oh, like, I am focusing on those things. And I'm not valuing like that piece that he is, like, socially, really adept. You know, like in play at all levels. And anyways, so you can't when? MADELINE What the fuck do we do with this? How do you heal this shit? Sounds like there's so many gifts. What What I noticed for myself and healing is coming from because it was so important to look good. My strategy was, I gotta look good for society. Because it's a shitshow. Back there wasn't I didn't need my parents didn't need me. There was just was nobody home. You know, while there was. This is funny, I just remembered this. My mom said, there was a 1970s Time magazine cover. And it was about inflation. So it was a family of four. And then there was a tornado, because inflation was killing the families or whatever. And I pointed everybody out. And I said, That's John, the tornado. And so it was there so early. But it was all external,
Alison Cebulla 48:11
right? Because they didn't need me. But I needed I needed to sign on as an brother, just in case. This is the first time you're tuning in. John has an brother who's suffering with some severe mental illnesses. And so he was like a tornado in the family. That's an interesting story. Okay, so how old were you were that
Anne Sherry 48:28
I was a bit it would have been like night when was in flight 1974.
Alison Cebulla 48:32
So how old were you? Six, six. Okay, so that's interesting, because you didn't have the words to say my brother has a mentally ill. But you could say, here's a picture of a tornado. And this feels like my brother. Yes. That's interesting. Yeah. So that's where
Anne Sherry 48:47
my parental FIDE child came from. I was trying to save the entire family because it was such a to me, it felt like a shit show. Like these people are idiots at that time. You know, like, or they're, I don't know, if they were idiots as much as nobody's home.
Madeleine Warren 49:02
Yeah. If anybody seemed clueless. Yeah, there's another cell or two. Right? Yeah, yeah.
Anne Sherry 49:09
So how do we heal this?
Madeleine Warren 49:14
Well, I think it's lovely that you have a community that you're sharing this with and normalizing and Alison, you were saying earlier when we were just starting like, or maybe before we started, like a lot of people not even really being able to name this. And I think for me in graduate school, which was 20 plus years ago, hearing the term parental FIDE child, I was like, Oh, that's a thing. That's what I had any so that I even wrote a paper on it. I think it was my final paper. So that that's a big step. That I'm not alone. This is a real thing. There is wounding associated with this. It's okay for me to feel some Distress about this. As well as whatever the pride is of like, hey, you know, I am good at these things. I am needed and I do hear you out. You weren't needed. You were literally just not seen and there wasn't a place to go. And
Anne Sherry 50:05
that's why I have rage. I was like, Yay, Claudia.
Alison Cebulla 50:10
Also, like when your parents don't delight in your presence. Yeah, that's such a huge wound. No, no delight. I'm so happy and overjoyed to have a child in my home. It's like when you miss that.
Anne Sherry 50:27
And Madeline Webb we allude to, or not even allude to, we outright say like just the neglectful structures of the American system. Create that again and again and again. Like where parents are overworked. Yeah. You know, they can't, like they can't be there for their kids often.
Alison Cebulla 50:46
And when I think it's settler colonialism i I'm listening to the nightwatchman book, written by the Native American woman, it's about a tribe in North Dakota in the 1950s. It won the Pulitzer Prize last year than I watched when I put that on my list. And I'm just the color contrasting all the time the white people that live around them in North Dakota with the tribes and the ethos of the of the white settler colonialism is about conquering, dividing, killing, watering, owning, and I'm just like, this is making us really sick, you know,
Anne Sherry 51:30
under percent.
Madeleine Warren 51:31
Yeah. And I just want to at least guy had this part that was wants to me, I probably not going to send this to my mom. So that's a little sad for me that I would like probably wouldn't want her to hear this. This podcast, but I do want to say even though she's not going to hear this that she did, delighted me. So there's two extremes, right. Okay. And she's delighted in me that it was like almost that was pressure and kind of a
Alison Cebulla 51:56
burden guy got it different. Okay. I felt
Madeleine Warren 51:58
used in how much she wanted and needed me to be it and steady and be the adult. That's not consistent presence, that consistent force. So I got it and I and I did write a piece once she she for her birthday one year, she said I want you to write a piece about us anything, it can be negative, she's so I actually did it. In one night. I just which is how I usually do things. Just kind of cranked it out. And the title is my mother was my biggest fan. Because I did get that there was always like, you can do anything. You're amazing, again, that adoration but it came with that price because it meant that that was expected and that was needed. And then what about me being vulnerable? Having my own needs just being a kid? You just I just don't remember feeling like a kid. I didn't have a childhood.
Alison Cebulla 52:48
And what were the negative? What have been the negative impacts of that? For you?
Madeleine Warren 52:53
Yeah, I think, you know, just just giving up, even having needs thinking that the only way you're valued at all is if you attune and take care of and make sure everybody else's needs are met. So you you know for so long my I call them most of my friends were I call unpaid clients. It was like I just didn't know how to manifest any relationship other than a one sided you know, I'm valued because you need me and I know how to attune. So I think it's a very distorted way of being in friendship. I think another thing we haven't talked about attachment styles, but parental FIDE children, that's a very big piece of literature and research. I definitely another thing that I got a revelation from in a consultation group I was in as a participant is I was like avoidant attachment style.
Alison Cebulla 53:47
And say,
Madeleine Warren 53:49
that was like horrifying. And I remember, but it was so resonant like Yeah, that's so a friend of mine, because I have made some friends that are finally not unpaid clients, people who have who want to be there for me, but I noticed how hard that is for me to allow if I'm not feeling, don't call them. I call them when I have something to contribute. So just being able to name that and for them to keep reassuring. Hey, I'd like it if you call me even if you're upset. It's okay. Yeah, but anyway, one of my friends said to me when I found out about my avoidant attachment style, she said, Well, that doesn't make sense to me because you're such a good friend. And I said, Terry, you're right. But if it wasn't you, it'll be somebody else. Like there's it's not that I don't really let myself know and feel like I'm attached to you. I don't get attached. Like I have friends who all consider me to be their best friend. I don't have one.
Anne Sherry 54:41
That person Oh,
Alison Cebulla 54:44
see, I just take that in for a second. We just want you you have a lot of people who consider you their best friend but you are
Madeleine Warren 54:53
multiple people in my life who would consider me their best friend and I don't have a best friend. I would not. I mean I love them all. Oh, and yeah, I'm telling myself over time as I continue to heal this, to let myself know that I can feel attachment, but it's not. It's not an open natural thing for me to feel attached. I really can sense that. Just like the skating incident, I'll be fine. Don't worry about me. First go to my you know, the default is to go away and take care of myself until I'm better until I'm fit company until I have something to contribute.
Anne Sherry 55:30
I'm laughing so I don't cry, I think because there's about what I also noticed, like when you've had this much, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. You've like trained to everybody in your life that you don't have needs. And you just step into that, like, I don't think I'm fine. Or I do need something. And when you hear, hear, like, what, you're always okay, well, how come you don't need so that's a devastating response to get once you like, put it out there just like, I think I need something. So do that very carefully. And only with safe people give you that response, you know, because then you hear that and it's like the sea anemone. All these images are coming to be a sea anemone, a roly poly bug, you just you know, a crab that just a hermit crab, everything, you just suck right back up, and you're like, see, it wasn't safe. So that it is that tender? Like the vulnerability is devastatingly tender. And it looks so together on the outside, you know, that's why I was even afraid to do this bug. Have you on almost battling? Because I'm like, Oh, she's going to open some up. So
Madeleine Warren 56:39
I'll go to Yeah, well, thank you and all of that vulnerable sharing. And to your question, Allison, how do we heal this are both of us that I think that's one of the the trailheads that's another thing we use in this field is called term. Yeah. Just that just talking about that vulnerable place that really does have needs. So kind of, you know, to me, it's very much an an both I use that term a lot. Where I remember my very first client in graduate school, she, she came in, she was pretty angry person. And she said, Don't give me that shit about being my own best friend. Because I really need other people. And yeah, I just understood that I was like, I get it. But what I know is that there isn't an both about can we bring some connection and like I'm here with you to that vulnerable place in us that really learned how to totally get sublimated and disappear like he does have. And she's had to be locked away. So that is some of the healing is just for us to kind of go to that place with help. I definitely recommend this process with a safe person that can really hold the space for you so that you can hold space for that little one. And I one of my therapists, that I still see occasionally when I have a little piece of work to do. When I first met her about 10 years ago, I said, Okay, so I'm a parental FIDE child, which means that if I've got strong emotions, I feel like I've got to take care of you. In order to handle that. So I need to know, Can you handle it? Can you? If I tell you, I don't like what you're doing? Can you handle that without becoming all upset at me? Can you stay there when I'm just feeling a lot and I don't know what's going on. She's like, I can do that. And I was like, okay, then we can work together.
Anne Sherry 58:32
Whoever and you tested her out. That's,
Madeleine Warren 58:35
that's, that's the way I'm speaking for and caring for that part of me. Like I'm saying, I do know that there's needs I have a lot of protective parts that can really block that reality out. But I'm coming here clearly because I have some needs, and I need you to be able to be strong and handle that. Yeah. And then with that someone holding space, and you asked that earlier, Allison, can you let people in? I do allow my friends to be even though it's not always apparent. I even had a conversation last week with my friend. She said, when you're this upset, which I was just telling her about how upset I'd been last week. I didn't. I didn't call anybody. She said you could call me I would really love it. If you would just Just try it. She's called me and not know okay,
Anne Sherry 59:23
that's funny. Not funny.
Madeleine Warren 59:26
I said, I hear you. I may not be able to do it. But I really appreciate the invitation. And I might try it.
Anne Sherry 59:32
So this is this is something it's akin to giving the weather after like the weather report after the storm systems already clear. That's what I do. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 59:44
Yeah, afterwards. Oh,
Anne Sherry 59:46
I won't ever reach out during a storm.
Alison Cebulla 59:49
I'm really good at reaching out to friends. I have like five friends. I can think of that if I'm having a panic attack or whatever. But coming back to the attachment I like Almost impossible for me to do it with my partner. I can do it with friends. It's like if there's enough distance or a therapist or something, but if you're my partner, no, I need to be perfect at all times,
Anne Sherry 1:00:13
I was just thinking to how I similar to you, Madeline with Tom, who's my ifs therapist, we found him on the podcast. But I have to set the stage for a while, like I'm about to have an emotion. Something's happening. I need you. I trained him because he's also avoidant, and doing His work and got his own shit. But he wants to be there. So we've sort of learned this language, or I have more, but like, something's gonna happen. Just sit there. Don't say anything. Don't try to fix me. Like, just like you sort of did with that therapist. Right? Yeah. And I have to set the stage. So soda, so so I can have success. Like those times with certain emotions, there's just no grace, I think we learn to have grace, eventually, at times that not everybody is going to get it. I mean, that would be my hope that we can have our emotions and not be dependent on if somebody meets us there that where we're going to be okay, not ridicule, but like, maybe they just don't get it perfectly right. You know, so would feel
Madeleine Warren 1:01:15
Yeah, and for me, it's a big credibility issue. Like for so many years, my parts really didn't think anybody can really do what I do. Like you're naive. None of you really do. You're you're not trustworthy. You don't you don't have the capacity for that. So I
Anne Sherry 1:01:31
like some one shit right there.
Alison Cebulla 1:01:33
Hey, we just did an episode last week about Messiah Complex. And I think if you're a parental FIDE child, you get a little bit of that, like, I'm here to save my mom, I'm here to save the day. I'm here to save society. So I don't know if you experienced that or relate to that. You're nodding, so I'm curious to hear.
Madeleine Warren 1:01:54
Yeah, I, you know, it's I've said I don't want to have it's not about power. Like, I want to have power over people. So I got it. Okay. But it's about it's kind of like, and I know, this is one way I've gone into being a therapist, and I watched that I pay attention to those parts. But it's basically like, you can't do it. I want to make up to you for what you didn't get. Right. I'm gonna do that you didn't get you know, all because I have a lot of prenta phi job clients, I have a lot of trauma ties, adults who are who had those histories. So I'm gonna make it up to you for what you didn't get. I'm gonna love you, and I'll be there for you. So I think that's probably also a reflection of just how deeply my parts would like that. Right? Like, like you were saying, anybody making it up to, to them,
Alison Cebulla 1:02:42
oh, you saw you just helped me have a big insight about the Messiah Complex, because you said it wasn't about power. So I'm realizing that it has to be a couple of things happening at once. You have to have felt like you're saving the family. And I think you had to have been humiliated quite often. Because that's where that desire for power comes in. I'm just wondering if this is where the Messiah savior complex comes in. Because to me it's it is about power in myself and my friends, is like if you had that, that double whammy being having to grow up too fast and feeling humiliated most of the time, you're gonna want to feel that power of you know, I'm I am so in control. And I'm actually really special and I'm here to save everyone. Yeah,
Madeleine Warren 1:03:26
it's a lot of sense. I don't think I had that other pieces much again, I had my mother's biggest fan I had a lot of like you are was almost like I had to because another thing I really hated about school was that everybody kept praising me, you the amazing a plus, you know, and it was almost like at first it's kept the pressure going, but that's what I was expected to be. But also it kind of again, lost credibility. I really have to say that I just I made this early decision that my parents just aren't credible they're just not you know, I can't depend on any adults adults are not dependable so but yeah, I don't feel like I that the for me it wasn't about power and control. It was none of you are in control. So somebody has to be yes, but that's a little different I think than I've got you this is the only way I'm very different.
Alison Cebulla 1:04:15
I think it's very different. Yeah, I was
Madeleine Warren 1:04:19
as a kid I was totally empowered teachers empowered me my mother empower me You're amazing. You're great. You have all this these gifts, so I didn't have that feeling of humiliation. So I think that's a really good thing Ellison that's
Anne Sherry 1:04:34
another angle on that maybe yeah, humiliated I was ignored. So this kind of people giving you power when you're ignored you don't know what to do with that like You're like being seen but it's like terrifying to you can't fuck up. You can not there's no place to fuck up or make a mistake. You know to Medellin
Alison Cebulla 1:04:53
and is a very reluctant podcast host I was actually I was editing last episode. You're in not doing it today. And I we can edit this out if it's embarrassing, but sometimes you start to say something and then you trail off like you're not allowed to say it, but your full power, like, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, Oh, can I just do that I can make I don't think I can have this opinion. So I'm gonna just trail off.
Anne Sherry 1:05:17
Yeah, or go in like 10 different directions.
Madeleine Warren 1:05:22
Yeah, for me, I saw the adults in my life is weak. So I have another story. Probably 10 years old. We're in a restaurant there was allowed to smoke at that time. My mother and I both hated cigarette smoke. Somebody was smoking near us. I call over the server because my mother would never do this. I'm like, Excuse me, we need to
Alison Cebulla 1:05:40
move. Oh, my God.
Madeleine Warren 1:05:42
That kind of thing. Right?
Alison Cebulla 1:05:45
The parents
Madeleine Warren 1:05:47
take care. I will take care because you can't
Alison Cebulla 1:05:49
Yeah. Wow. Madeline,
Anne Sherry 1:05:52
Madeline speak speak to us if you can about rage and anger that might be underneath, that we're suppressing or being able to be angry, because that's not really popular for a printify child to have big emotions. So we're, I heard it described on some podcasts that like emotions are like a beach ball that we're shoving under the water. And there it is gonna pop up. You know, I think that was on. I don't know. A happy. Good. Yeah. But so what do we do with cars? What do we do? What what do we? We collective? Obviously, I'm not asking for myself, because that would be asking for help. And that's fucked up. So
Alison Cebulla 1:06:33
so what would what?
Anne Sherry 1:06:36
When like, rage or the, or the big, unpopular emotions that
Madeleine Warren 1:06:42
Yeah. First of all, it's not just renovate shelter, I think women in general, I mean, if we thank
Alison Cebulla 1:06:48
you, thank you. So anger
Madeleine Warren 1:06:50
is actually very, pretty much okay for boys and men, although Don't be abusive, right. So don't be too angry. And then, you know, be nice be, you know, I think some of those things, hopefully are changing over time. So I just want to name that. But I'm gonna say that I'm not the best person to ask about that. Because that's my kind of layer that I really still haven't dealt with very well, I don't do anger. Well, I've actually had this extremely challenging client for the past couple of years. male in his 30s, who his trauma is being raged at. And he's without really being fully conscious of it. He actually does, he gets very angry. He blames me, he attacks me. And it's horrible for my system, because I just I, it's like, I want to react appropriately. Like, this isn't okay, to treat me this way. I got all this, like attunement. And I understand that his story is terrible and compassionate. So I'm trying I've got parts that are trying to meet his really angry blaming inappropriate, you know, attacking his purpose, and I'm normalizing it. I'm making that okay. And I'm trying to in compassion, which by the way, he then goes, What's What are you doing? You don't you don't I don't think you're being compassionate at all. I think you seem like you're just not even here. So it's like, wow, I can't express my anger. I can't, I'm not really compassionate, because I'm like, just trying to like survive these moments. So I just want to say that to be continued in terms of I think there is a lot of anger that we appropriately would want to express. But I think prettified children don't want to lose control. I certainly and tonight,
Alison Cebulla 1:08:33
yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, really let it
Madeleine Warren 1:08:37
out on this guy or anybody that I'm trying to care for. That's just not okay. So how does appropriate anger response being able? So I came up with an analogy too late, because in the moment, I'm just getting totally activated with this client. But later because he said something like, Well, you've got that quote, and IFS of all parts are welcome. I've got that little sign over there. I don't know if you can see it. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 1:09:01
Shut down.
Madeleine Warren 1:09:03
Actually, against me, because he's been read it by so he says, Why is it not okay for me to talk to you anyway, I want all parts are welcome. And I was like, totally discombobulated by this. I couldn't, I didn't know what to say about it. Because of course, I I kind of believe you're right. I'm supposed to just take whatever it is, and take care of you. Later. Well, I'm inviting you into my home, but I'm not inviting you to punch me in the face. I'm not welcoming that. But again, that wasn't said in the moment where I could actually say, Hey, I don't like this. I don't like what's happening. This doesn't feel good. So to how do we actually be able, and you said this earlier speak for this, because I don't want to lose control. You know, again, for prenta phi child that's that's actually not acceptable to my system to just lose it. Because that makes me feel very vulnerable in the world. If I'm just unfiltered and I see other people do that. And that's not an option for Me. On the other hand, if I only see anger as an out of control, unfiltered response, then I'm not going to allow those parts of me to have an appropriate push back and boundaries. Let's go to our cliched word boundaries. So what the hell do you do? Right? It's that's been a dilemma for my system.
Anne Sherry 1:10:20
I so appreciate you sharing the truth that US therapist types we fixed we were like maybe three steps ahead, sometimes two steps behind like we are like parallel, often parallel processing. So yeah, that we're figuring it out too. And that's amazing. So yeah, yeah, I do my rage by invest rage in the car. Yeah. So
Madeleine Warren 1:10:46
yeah, I do this thing that I've done since childhood, which is I rehearse over and over and over again, the conversation that I didn't have. Yeah. And I find that that's not real helpful that for the parts that really just want to feel and let something if you can't feel it, then you don't know how to respond. Right. So this is a way to go into my head and cope and make it what
Alison Cebulla 1:11:07
happened. Madeline, if you were messy with your feelings?
Madeleine Warren 1:11:11
I think it's a wonderful question. And something I in my wise mind, I'd like to call it that I've built completely believe in. And for my part, it's not a thing. It's just, that's why I don't call people when I messy or I last night, we were invited over to a friend's house and my partner and I, I was not in a good state. He'd had a difficult day. He's got PTSD. He's a survivor. And so I was like, I don't want to go I have nothing to offer. It's going to be I just don't want to be in the shape and go over there. But I absolutely couldn't cancel. She'd gone all out. They were so excited. It was like what the hell am I sent her a text and I said, just a heads up, that I'm not doing very well. My partner's had a bad day, too. i We're gonna be glad of your company. But I just don't feel like I'm myself. And I'm back this message saying your family. We love you. It's yeah, I'm gonna get a little tearful now.
Alison Cebulla 1:12:10
Madeline? Oh, my gosh.
Madeleine Warren 1:12:13
So the reminders, I think we just reassure ourselves when we are in enough of a state to do that. And we get reassured by those people we've manifested because I have manifested people who do get it. And that's a big piece of healing. When you pull in your life that do get it, you know that you've healed something?
Anne Sherry 1:12:30
That's so I always say that's so funny. That's not funny. That's like, real, authentic. For me, yes. But I have the story that I have no community. And then when I actually like, I have five or six women I get with once a month to do our equity work. I have a goddess group that I've been meeting with for 15 years, and we have a text string going so some part of me like that's happening, but there is this part that's like, refuses or doesn't think or, you know, and I just will still I'll probably be working on that till till I die, you know, so some of the things I've gotten into this, like healing or not healing, are we you know, do we have a lot of self energy or that kind of high wise mind energy present or not like that polarization. And it's just this kind of like, being okay with how long it takes, and sometimes it's better and sometimes it's really not.
Alison Cebulla 1:13:22
And you know, I don't believe in healing. I don't know if I believe in healing. I may be talking words, befriend myself and get to know myself and say, You know what, it's okay. But do I actually change or like to hear your ideas are heard.
Anne Sherry 1:13:40
Now, I'm pleased you weigh in on that, if you would, please.
Madeleine Warren 1:13:46
I want to be very, I feel very respectful of what you both just said. And I do want you both to hear I do believe in healing and tell
Alison Cebulla 1:13:52
us when it's over how does it work?
Madeleine Warren 1:13:54
We have seen my own healing and change pretty dramatically over the years. I think what we're saying though, is first of all, I love your question is about being messy. I think part of healing is to recognize that being human is to be messy and that we have these blind moments where we can really see well I can really do this differently now I have parts that are really feel connected now and comforted and have more belief in getting help. And I still have parts that I might as you say I have to keep companion and then for the rest of my life, but that even to be able to do that and recognize that to me as part of healing and change. So I'm I wouldn't do the work I do as a therapist divided but I've said that to clients. I said you I'm not a masochist. I said if all I was doing here was telling you Well, I totally get it. Good luck with that. That would be
Anne Sherry 1:14:42
a little bit what I hear and I think this is important just in the work of equity and us coming together. Is it messy? Is it like that is what we're going for in many ways. Not like this tying shit up in a better bow. You know? Well, yeah.
Madeleine Warren 1:14:58
Yeah. Like messy is part Devitt but there are there are definitely you know in this work that I help people do unburdening of Sharon was just literally there anymore I am I like that, you know energetically however we've absorbed beliefs we've absorbed messages we've absorbed energy that's shit can get it can get unloaded and when that happens you suddenly have protected parts saying wow I don't really have to do this thing I've always done there's not the same reason so what do I do now? And that's part of healing and change. Okay, how does my inner family now get to respond to the world when that is no longer something I'm carrying around? That's another aspect of change another layer another chapter but messy is part of it. And I think part of it yeah thinking that we need to just be in this calm state all the time. That's not even enjoyable right I mean, and the love your you know the energy the you know the crazy
Anne Sherry 1:16:03
word yes in our in my equity White Lady group trying to do less harm we were not going to call it a we do a check in we're calling it a mess in now so do away with yes a mess said isn't it better? Because stealing that habit? Everyone have it? So we're not doing check ins we're doing messin Madeline, take that to ifs you can have it will because everybody's like, I gotta have this. And that's what I used to do in the trainings. I'm like, I gotta get it together. I'm gonna say something stupid early days. Now it just let it fly. Yeah,
Madeleine Warren 1:16:43
notice that perhaps is one of our parental FIDE child manager parts. Yeah. Because actually, when we are self led, we do welcome all parts we do. Well, we don't have the agenda that at all need to be tied up. Well, that's right. And that's the message to say because I remember, one of the things my mother did was whenever I would get hurt, physically, I remember this. You're fine. Like, and I was so weird. I'm crying. It's terribly unfine. Okay, well, so to be able to be messy is to say to that part, it's okay to feel upset right now.
Alison Cebulla 1:17:18
It's okay to not be fine. Healing and change seriously, that's
Madeleine Warren 1:17:22
a healing moment. It is. It's okay not to be fine. And I and I'm with right. people out here that care about and are okay with me being not fine. And I've now got friends saying it's okay not to be fine. Call us. We love you like last night, that message. That's a healing message. And the fact that I could do to tell her and she did and I could receive it back. That's a healing change moment. So that was that's yeah, a little well,
Alison Cebulla 1:17:52
that's a great note. To wrap up on gosh. Thank you. I told you we've been waiting to interview you.
Anne Sherry 1:18:03
Basically what I said I was like watch we're gonna rock rock the audience's world. So go ahead and get your therapist on the line people are a thank
Madeleine Warren 1:18:11
you so much both of you and I will send you a few things including some links for for your audience. Yeah, thanks, man.
Alison Cebulla 1:18:20
We'll put those in the show notes. All right.
Anne Sherry 1:18:23
Okay, have an awesome day. It's gonna be okay. Never felt this good. Never felt this good.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai