23 - I Saved My Family and All I Got Was This Participation Trophy—with cohosts Tyler Tamai, RN, BSN, and Kevin the Psych Nurse

Episode Notes
Written By

Anne and Alison welcome back beloved guests Tyler Tamai (from Ep11 and Ep16) and Kevin Anonymous (Ep20) to cohost about the 80s parenting and cultural environment that led to our messiah complexes. We look at the popular films that shaped our worldview towards saving. What's a reasonable amount of saving? What amount is a mental illness or psychosis? We dive into the psychology and child trauma of saving. We look at Jesus' mental health (the OG Messiah) and lastly, we explore what demons are to us.

00:00 Intro with Anne and Alison

17:00 Science Corner with Alison

19:00 Conversation with Tyler and Kevin

Audio engineering by Josh Collins.
Theme music is "One Cloud is Lonely" by Proxima Parada.

Tyler Tamai is a Registered Nurse and Public Health Nurse with a BSN and in San Diego, California. He is a father, husband, social change maker. In 2020 he was awarded a full scholarship for his nursing program as an Honors Fellow for Social Change. Click here to read more about that. Tyler’s educational journey has spanned numerous areas of focus, including homelessness, poverty, and mental health disorders. He has provided care for several diverse populations, including those who find themselves homeless and those struggling with substance abuse disorders.

Catch Tyler on Ep11 and Ep16.

Kevin is our other cohost. He is a psychiatric nurse who is choosing to keep his full name anonymous due to the nature of his work. Catch Kevin on Ep20.

Show Notes:

Intro:

Science Corner:

Conversation with Tyler and Kevin:

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:08
All right. Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:15
And Sherry.

Alison Cebulla 0:17
So we got a couple of five star reviews this week. So thank you, everyone. Thank you. It really does help.

Anne Sherry 0:28
Well, we need to do a Brett brex commercial. Do you know the Brax? And this is a good seven days one and I told two friends and so on and so on and so on. And

Alison Cebulla 0:40
you know this commercial? Yeah, you've I think you've mentioned it. I love

Anne Sherry 0:43
it. And I think they sold cream rinse people, not conditioner. I still say cream rinse. So that's how you Yeah, instead of conditioner.

Alison Cebulla 0:53
But it reminds me speaking of old timey commercials. My mom used to come into my my bedroom every single morning of my childhood, I've told you this right. And first, she would come in, and she would pinch my toe. And the thing was, is that her hand was a spider. And she would be a spider and she would start singing this commercial from her childhood from the 60s and she would go early in the morning when you eat a spider. That thing could be bad. Or they Coco we'd be fighter every morning in my entire childhood.

Anne Sherry 1:29
Oh my god. They're all rushing. McDonald's, do you remember? You don't know we have different commercials, commercials, international foods, or Maxwell House or celebrate the moments of your life.

sad is that now celebrate the moments of your life.

I think that's International. That is international food coffee like I don't know. And then McDonald's to be paid for stuff Swiss cheese because on our systems they've been

Alison Cebulla 2:05
some of that does sound a little bit familiar.

Anne Sherry 2:08
Radio stations were running where you if you could say it under 30 seconds or under? I don't know. 10 seconds or something. You could win something so

Alison Cebulla 2:16
Oh, interesting. I know. Did you see that show on HBO the MC? I think it was called MC millions or something.

Anne Sherry 2:24
Oh, yeah. Five part documentary. Oh, good.

Alison Cebulla 2:28
Such a well done documentary. Puli.

Anne Sherry 2:31
Lee what a scam and I fell for it. I played and played and played Monopoly. Oh, you better believe it? Yeah, I would play it today and say I would definitely play it today. Yeah, I'm a sucker for get rich quick stuff, or I still

Alison Cebulla 2:51
want to play like one of my favorite trauma authors. Peter Levine posted this to his Facebook. And it has a Mr. Rogers face on it. But who knows if it's the Mr. Rogers quote, someone just put this together it says play is often talked about as if it were a relief from serious learning. But for children play a serious learning play is really the work of childhood. agreed and missed out on the play. You're fucked up your whole life.

Anne Sherry 3:17
Well, this is the one because we've talked about what creates a sociopath, right? Yes, this is the one thing not playing doesn't make you a sociopath. But it is like almost 100% correlation or whatever. All of these like, yeah, like the grisly murder or types are whatever. None of them got to play. That they all have that in common?

Alison Cebulla 3:41
Uh, yeah. In that book, The boy who was raised as a dog by Bruce Perry,

Anne Sherry 3:46
Jr. Did that Oh, good. Thank you thrift books. I got all all of your titles that's probably just looking at the list of trauma might be making me have murderous rage. But it did play as a child so I won't. I'm not a total psychopath.

Alison Cebulla 4:03
You You were you were like a almost gonna get murdered by your sociopathic brother.

Anne Sherry 4:08
That's true. Well, there's that. That is true. That's kind of a bummer.

Alison Cebulla 4:13
It's a bummer. I was the sociopath sibling trying to murder my brother. Is this the thing when you're the older child? I just I didn't want to murder him. But it's just like, if you're watching you, if they're not watching you ever and you're a fucking child. I don't mind because I

Anne Sherry 4:29
can remember holding saran wrap over my younger brother's face. Oh, boy. Yes. Oh, that was when we were being cared for by an alcoholic person. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, it was nuts. Now the more I look at those are the whatever, the more memories are coming back and I'm like, Oh, that wasn't just a funny story. That was like terror. Yeah. So thanks. Allison, I thought I was almost finished with my therapy. You're not even close. scratching the surface right? You

Alison Cebulla 5:07
just scratch What have you been working on this whole time? What are you?

Anne Sherry 5:17
Okay, I'm so sorry if any of my clients are listening, like, I'll give you a refund.

Alison Cebulla 5:24
No, she won't. She's

Anne Sherry 5:28
well, that's what makes you an amazing therapist because you know truly how fucked up you are. Heal and you don't heal, you just build capacity people. You just build capacity. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 5:39
So but okay. But in the in the boy who has raised his dog, there's a story about two brothers and one of them was a murderer, and the other one wasn't. And so that's where you ask yourself, well, how can we how can you blame his upbringing if the brother was fine? Yeah. But it turned out that when the first child, the non serial killer was born, they lived. It was two parents who live close to their family and they had like a large support system. And, you know, grandparents could watch uncles and aunts all this they felt supported. Then they had they, he the dad lost his job, and they had to move far away for a job. And they had their second baby and they didn't have family around. And the mom. Apparently, I guess she was a little bit mentally feeble in some way. She just wasn't completely all there. So she wasn't making the best choices. But she felt really overwhelmed. And she didn't know how to care for her new baby all by herself. So she would just leave the house with the older sibling and just leave the baby alone, home alone every day in the crib. And that meant to be a killer.

Anne Sherry 6:48
And she took did she leave the the older kid alone to

Alison Cebulla 6:53
or she would take the older kid with her? They would she would go do stuff with the older kid and just leave the baby at home alone every day. That's how you create a scenario. Literally the exact formula is you never interact with your baby.

Anne Sherry 7:10
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I know I say this, like humans are terrible. And that's like when my pack when my art pieces disappeared. I just, I mean, I said, I just hope everybody on the planet dies is kind of where I go. Which is kinda outsize. And I said, except you August you can live. But I was like, I really just don't like us. But then I'm like, Ah, the things that humanity human humans have been doing to each other who who was reading about maybe it was in the the dog. The boy was right. There's a difference between humanity and humane. Where was I reading this? I mean, we have to be taught how to be humane. It just I don't

Alison Cebulla 7:57
understand why it's not intuitive of like, you need to care for your fucking children that why is that not intuitive?

Anne Sherry 8:03
I know. But if she wasn't cared for herself, or she's overwhelmed, this is why the system also

Alison Cebulla 8:09
reactor of the data having to move for the new job. Yeah, and

Anne Sherry 8:13
not having help, just losing all that help. I mean, they just check the fuck out like so I simultaneously child

Alison Cebulla 8:20
in a crib continue continue. I know. But this

Anne Sherry 8:23
time it is it's simultaneously like hating us in what we are on mass. It seems like it's hard to see the good and then also understanding holy. It's just a circular thing because we keep perpetuating the trauma, you know, and just what people have been through and then these systems that we're creating that make it so hard to care.

Alison Cebulla 8:47
So today, we brought back two favorite guests, two beloved guests, Tyler Tomei, and Kevin anonymous. So Tyler was in Episode 11. Kevin was in Episode 20. Yeah, and we are talking about this episode was really a therapy for me. I did it selfishly for me. Just so you know. Good. So if you know, yeah, if you ever want to issue Yeah, you know, to work through. Oh, we can learn Kevin back or something. Or Tara or? Yes, yeah. But so I had to work through my I suffered from some delusions of grandeur, which is a mental illness in my teens and 20s. And so we talk about what's going on with Messiah savior complex, you know, what the fuck is going on with that? And I think we I think we do a pretty good job of unpacking a few things. Yeah, it was helpful.

Anne Sherry 9:52
It was interesting to hear that you guys felt so much pressure or feel so much pressure to heal the world or do something greater

Alison Cebulla 10:00
Brent arch upbringings were be well it was like three Millennials versus one Gen X. Yes, the three of us were all born in 8485 So we were like peak. We are the world's save the world bullshit. Yes. And like we were literally born into that, like weird world it was being recorded and distributed like during. Yeah, cuz I

Anne Sherry 10:24
kind of even look back on like the just even the ads and stuff of the 70s. And there just wasn't this. So you weren't getting that much care in some way in general, but also the media wasn't like sending you this message of we care about you either. So or but it's probably really you're supposed to do something. Yeah, that's right. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 10:45
you want it cheaper, you know, so then all of a sudden, people were traveling to countries that had been colonized. And as a result, we're what we refer to as developing countries or this is a very outdated term third world country. And so people were able to go to these places like Africa take photos, put them in National Geographic and and garner all this, you know, sympathy. And like we have to do something. Urgent urgency was there. Yeah. And then people were getting more and more families were getting televisions in their homes. Yeah, it's just the technology, the flights, the media

Anne Sherry 11:23
and like, when did we start like trying to heal the ozone with banning Styrofoam cups? When did that happen?

Alison Cebulla 11:30
That felt like the magic to me. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 11:33
We kind of gave there was a little bit of a giving a shit like and also remember this like we closed it we close the ozone hole is somewhat message that was out there because we stopped using CF or something in the refrigerators. Right, right. Right. Whatever that stuff was. But classic though. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 11:52
there's a classic case study. About there was a big commercial I think it was the late 70s early 80s where there was a Native American man with a with a tear

Anne Sherry 12:04
I remember that I started Indian throwing my my trash out the window.

Alison Cebulla 12:08
Oh, that was propaganda that was paid for by the can the aluminum can industry because the people always got their soda and milk and everything all these things in bottles that were refillable. And they

Anne Sherry 12:22
still does that I think. Oh, really? Okay. A little milk trucks? Yep.

Alison Cebulla 12:26
Oh, that's really cute. So then the candy industry was like, we want to be able to make more money. So we need to give people throw away cans because we could really make more money on this. So they they invented the can industry and then they started to even though it's always it always has been and it continues to be industries that are the major pollutants polluters, not individuals. And they did this whole brainwashing campaign with the the quote crying Indian in he's going down a canoe and he looks at all this trash. And it says something like, you know, you need to pick up your litter or whatever. Yeah, and but really, it should, it was meant to put the onus on the individual instead of the industry. It's so now we have this individual level guilt for something that was never our problem. That's right. I mean, I'll link to that article. By the way, it was a great article in Orion magazine.

Anne Sherry 13:19
Yeah, bad we were easily duped. Why, why are this beautiful earth that we have? Like, why would we choose to live this way? So I can't I know it's like a billion factors or whatever. But yeah, depressing today.

Alison Cebulla 13:38
Well, and then I mean, it's a we live in a complex society and the complexity is what makes us intelligent. That's that's intelligent that intelligence, the complexity of our society, so people who think that you can just go be a homesteader and give the middle finger to everybody and just go live on your own. Yeah, you just not thinking right. You just know. I'm sorry. You need to take a sociology class. Yes.

Anne Sherry 14:06
Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, this will this is what Octavia Butler stuff is they're forced into creating these small communities, right, like, and then the world just keeps, you know, still there's like a Trump. I mean, literally in there. There's this is in the 90s. And I'm sure this has been said before, but there's the slogan of the terrible leader that's going to be elected is Make America Great Again. That's the That's his campaign slogan in Octavia Butler's, but in the book, make it more clear, right again. 9090s like 9495

Alison Cebulla 14:41
Did the slogan get picked from that book? Or I?

Anne Sherry 14:45
Who knows? I don't know who's running lights wise campaign and stuff. I know. I mean, he's Trump. She describes this person who this Jarrett, President Jarrett, but he is and he brings in Christianity So they start these crusades and they're rounding people up and down and look up the year. What's the name of it? It's a parable of the talent is this one. Sorry to Octavia Butler died. I don't know. So this, I mean, she's just I keep saying like, Oh, we can't let this happen and what 1898 9098

Make America Great Again. That's so why it is so weird. Yeah, I'll post it. Oh, maybe anyways, read these books. Speaking of happening now. Grandiose rulers. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 15:46
We have a great, it's not actually an interview. It's a conversation. It's more like our toxic positivity episode where we just hash out a topic with our friends. So

Anne Sherry 15:59
it's fast fun,

Alison Cebulla 16:00
grandiose rulers, we could have been the totalitarian,

Anne Sherry 16:06
poor people. We raised, the kids being told you could do anything you wanted, which is fucking crap. So

Alison Cebulla 16:14
Oh, it's so awful. I'm following your worst advice of all time. It's like, just go out there and make a little bit of money and just try and find some sort of life. That's okay.

Anne Sherry 16:25
Yeah. Find people you like and who like you and hang out with us be together and hang out and have fun and care for each other.

Alison Cebulla 16:33
Okay. Okay, here's the conversation.

Okay, for today's science corner, I found a great study, I was looking for an association between adverse childhood experiences and delusions. And I actually ended up finding a great one about loneliness. It's called loneliness and psychotic experiences in a general population sample. And this was in the journal called schizophrenia research. And this was published in April of 2020. And it looks like loneliness is associated with common mental disorders, including psychotic disorders. We're all discussing this today. And none of us really suffer from a psychotic disorder, but we all kind of share different ways that we had delusional thinking which felt definitely felt like a mental illness. So in this study, they had a sample size of 974 people. And I'm just I'm kind of curious where they got that sample of people. Are these all people with schizophrenia or what but it's deep in the study, you know, I highly recommend checking it out. I'm gonna post it in the show notes. But it said, for delusion of reference and persecution, delusions of control and hallucinations, there were no significant associations when adjusted for socio demographic factors, adverse childhood experiences and common mental disorders. The results suggest that increased loneliness is associated with psychotic experiences, particularly delusional mood, and that future studies are needed to examine the potential causal relationships and underlying mechanisms. So I think this study doesn't doesn't say like which way it goes, maybe you have the delusions, and you become lonely, but I was just super curious about this because my childhood felt so lonely and if you listened to Claudia's episode number 21, you'll hear that I shared that befriending my loneliness was such a huge part of my personal mental health journey. So I was super fascinated to find this study. Check it out in the show notes.

All right, we are here with Tyler to my and Kevin anonymous, and they were both featured in our past episodes and two of our most popular episodes, so we're doing a you know, back by popular demand. That's best of the latchkey kids.

Tyler Tamai 19:30
Yes. I didn't even know elections or anything, but I'm so glad.

Kevin, psych nurse 19:34
Yeah. Really. It really comes down to how many toasters you set on fire. That's your weird things.

Alison Cebulla 19:44
Yeah, I got Tyler for his wedding gift. It's an amazing toaster. If

Tyler Tamai 19:51
you have not set it on fire once you can

Alison Cebulla 19:54
toast while it's toasting. It's a window like a clear window and you watch the toast toast It's not

Tyler Tamai 20:00
like the toaster oven where it's like that kind of window. It's like a vertical toaster with a window. It's great. It's really it's magic.

Anne Sherry 20:08
Really?

Tyler Tamai 20:09
I don't like that. Yeah, toast process until this time, told me that the bread just teleports elsewhere and is replaced by post. Now I know I could watch it happen.

Anne Sherry 20:24
Oh, toasts parents see is that when it comes? Yes, parents say,

Kevin, psych nurse 20:32
Okay. What I realized is that we didn't bring up that whole ology when we were talking.

Anne Sherry 20:41
Raise your hand if you have a butthole.

Kevin, psych nurse 20:44
I have one.

Alison Cebulla 20:59
Let me let me get through the business part. All right, so if you if you're just tuning in for the first time, we highly recommend that you go back and listen to Tyler's Episode 11, the middle school the drug addiction pipeline, and Kevin's episode, which is episode 20. Not enough for the too much a conversation with a psychiatric nurse about severe mental illness. And yeah, thank you. Thank you for thank you for coming back. You too. So Tyler is a nurse in the San Diego area. Kevin is a psychiatric nurse. And we are here today to talk about Messiah savior complex, which are topics that we touched on in Episode 20. Actually, and what's been interesting about this topic is that because we brought it up in 20, and I published a blog, which I'll put in the show notes about the fact that I was dating someone who recently passed away who had schizophrenia, and he had Messiah, Messiah Complex. And actually, Tyler was the very first person that I called, when my ex boyfriend, Kevin started to share some of his delusions of grandeur with me. And I was like, you know, these sound relatable, because I've had them too. And Tyler, you were kind of like, yeah, like I relate to those two, and I'll ask you to share kind of your story on that. And then Kevin, you're kind of like, Yeah, me too. And I'm like, fuck, okay, like, we need to explore this topic. So that's why we're here because there's, there's layers. There's, we kind of just talked about 80s Parenting setting us up and kind of like 90s movies, like The Matrix like everything's a Messiah. And then, you know, while while I was digging into this topic, I found this great Wikipedia page that I had never even considered about the mental health of Jesus, Jesus is the Messiah, what he actually saying, or did he have schizophrenia? And and this is not meant to bash Christianity whatsoever. But it's like, just such an interesting topic to me that I've never considered is like the Messiah Complex has to do with Jesus, who may or may not have been totally sane, and what does that even say about mental illness or like what we worship and what our society is built around? So,

Anne Sherry 23:19
so wanted to send that to my pastor Sarah, just sit get her to weigh in on it, and I forgot. Oh, well, okay, way to go. And yes, I'll send her this episode, and maybe we'll bring her on. And she Okay, great. Let us know. Yeah. Okay. So,

Alison Cebulla 23:35
um, like, first things first. Tyler, Kevin, and, yes. Do you have any? Do you? Does anyone want to share or go first and I'm happy to share mine. Of like, Did you or did you not have saviors slash Messiah Complex? And what does that look like?

Anne Sherry 23:53
I did not have that.

Tyler Tamai 23:58
Like leaned in to the microphone, like,

Anne Sherry 24:01
I know I do. And I steer clear of walking down streets claiming to be Jesus.

Kevin, psych nurse 24:12
That's because you're, you're not the Messiah. You're not the Messiah. It's

Alison Cebulla 24:19
me. It's me. Back to me, my Messiah Complex. Okay,

Anne Sherry 24:25
I know. Yes.

Kevin, psych nurse 24:27
I can speak a little bit to that. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 24:28
please, please.

Kevin, psych nurse 24:31
So in my, in my adolescence, in my early adulthood, I would have this recurring dream where I was in this like bunker type place with like the map of the world. We did I

Tyler Tamai 24:47
remember hearing about this

Kevin, psych nurse 24:48
right. And it's and I haven't had it in a very long time, which is good. But it was recurring, and it was the same all the time and medications

Anne Sherry 24:57
have gotten better. Yes, it's difficult.

Kevin, psych nurse 24:59
are much, much kinder to the body, we would be around, we would be around this table with a map of the world. And it was me and my siblings, my siblings, and I, and my, and my father, who we didn't touch on with the episode that I was in Episode 20. But he was a pastor for a long time. So I was raised in the Christian faith for for a lot of time. So I had, I had this dream, and it was like, we were figuring out, like, where to move the people from, like genocide, and it was like, and I and I, I really believed that I was gonna be like, part of some sort of big thing that was gonna save people's lives. And, you know, maybe maybe I have a small, little little role to play with what I'm doing now. But clearly, you are saving lives. Yeah, over, you know, an atlas. But I had this reoccurring dream for a lot of years. And it really it resonated, it was like, wow, I am going to do something great. I am going to do something great. I'm going to say why. And I, you know, I was chosen to do this.

Alison Cebulla 26:07
I'm so glad that you shared that. Yeah, you are doing this come true. No, no, no. Okay. But I just want to say thank you, because, um, that's pretty much exactly, it's not I didn't have the map visualization. But um, for like, pretty much my teenagers and my 20s up until I got some, some treatment for my major depressive disorder when I was 31. I had all of these actually worked with a life coach in New York City, who helped me see my Messiah Complex for the first time, which was really, really valuable. And he just was like, you weren't, you weren't put here to sacrifice yourself to save others. He goes, you know, that that came from you wanted to save your parents, you wanted to save your dysfunctional household, you know, and that, and I think I went home and cried, because that was like, yeah, a protective part. Right. And I'm like, I have a Messiah Complex, protecting me from some real pain. It was like, I'm hurting, I feel lonely in childhood. And so my brain in order to get me to survive my childhood, and I don't know if you kind of relate to this, Kevin at any way, but it's like, I had to invent this alternate reality whereby I would come and save the day, both for my parents, I would often fantasize about buying them things like buying them a house or get making a lot of money and giving it to them. I that was like a recurring one. And if you guys had that one, and you guys can pop in, but and then also like saving the world. I can't remember what the specific image was. But it was like this, I this feeling that I had like this special purpose. And once I figured out how to tap into it, I was gonna save everyone. And it makes no sense. But this was like this would come up in my head. Tyler, do you want to Yeah, Kevin.

Kevin, psych nurse 27:56
Because Because my parents so we were in the Christian faith for a long time. And then my parents marriage kind of fell apart and they divorced. I was 14 when they when they separated and they divorced. And it was this big thing for them. Because, you know, you know, the Bible tells them to do other things. But when I would tell my dad about these this dream, it was it was reinforced. He was like, oh, yeah, same. It's same with yes, there's something big for you. You're gonna you're gonna my

Alison Cebulla 28:22
parents will say that.

Kevin, psych nurse 28:26
You know, the Holy Spirit.

Anne Sherry 28:29
Not laughing at that. I am just like, so like, my 70 Shit.

Unknown Speaker 28:36
No one

Anne Sherry 28:37
gave a fuck. I mean, it was indifference on steroids that I'm like, you know, so I I think I just was so busy saving my family by being this enormous hero. You know, basketball star, perfect child basketball store. I wasn't smart enough to make I didn't have good enough grades or good enough study habits so I would just I don't know how the fuck like but I made on a roll and stuff like that. But it was all about do not look over there. Do not look over there. There is a madman over there. Don't look, you know. So. i It's so interesting. Because it's like by having similar to you, Alison. But there was no like, I didn't I don't know. I don't think I cared enough to like I was like, just get me the fuck out of here. You know, so I don't know.

Tyler Tamai 29:33
I can I can definitely relate to both Ali and and as far as like having this. Like the hero role, like just family dynamic kind of stuff. And I think Kevin can as well. As far as like having this merit based, like place in the household where it's like, this is how like, I'm doing something for the family. And so it's really Yeah, how culturally like we're influenced to carry that. And then also within our own families, which really, with the addition of faith, and then just like a dash of psychosis, right into messianic stuff really easily, easily and

Kevin, psych nurse 30:15
fine. Like, it really is. I'm

Alison Cebulla 30:18
glad you said that. But like, after, after reading this Wikipedia page, which we'll put in the show notes about Jesus's mental health, which there's some citations in, in the Bible about people saying, like, he has demons, which are on this Wikipedia page. And it sort of makes me question like, is there something inherent in our brain that wants to save ourselves, our family, our everybody, and maybe that's a really nice part of us. You know, like, maybe it's actually something like our social engagement system. It's like a some, I mean, it's seems like a protective factor from depression or whatever loneliness. And I wonder if there's something in there because the, like, the Christian religion is all about worshipping someone with the original Messiah Complex.

Kevin, psych nurse 31:10
The OG Messiah 100. Og

Anne Sherry 31:12
Yeah, there was something on I can spirituality about. Can't remember what it's called the temporal lobe epilepsy, temporal lobe epilepsy that gives you this three sort of factors that you get. You write excessively, not that you're not interested in sex, you're sort of asexual, and then you also what was the third one just sort of the save the world Savior? I don't know. I'm God sort of complex. And that lots of Messiah types may have had that, like Paul on the road, because there's tomes everywhere, right, they write the so much shit, you can't have sex. That seems to be across the board. And you have visions. So ah, like, and so there's a curiosity around that, and I don't know that

Tyler Tamai 32:08
with like, our current knowledge, which I assume is going to be outdated in, you know, a couple of decades. Yeah, looking back and seeing lots of things that like occur in either history or, you know, in the Bible, or Judeo Christian faith that can be easily be like, oh, yeah, that's, that's mental illness, you know, things that like possession and that sort of thing. Or the guy there's like, like a self harm kind of thing that's happening. There's there's a few different cases in like the New Testament, talking about people afflicted with something. And a lot of it, it's like, if you just opened the DSM, but you know, they didn't have that then I guess.

Kevin, psych nurse 33:01
A lot of folks with these with these, you know, spiritual backgrounds, these religious backgrounds, when when they experienced their first psychotic symptoms, oftentimes the first person that they approach for any sort of care as a spiritual leader, yeah, will care. And so you know, they can you know, you're presenting as if you are possessed with right, you're, you're hearing voices, you're seeing visions, and so oftentimes and in different cultures, in the in the community, I work, there's a big Filipino presence, and I've worked with some kiddos that their family has brought them to, like, these spiritual leaders that are giving them all these remedies and prayers, and it's like, well, they're having their first psychotic break, unfortunately. And so it delays care a lot for folks arresting

Alison Cebulla 33:52
interesting. But in some cases, I wonder if the care is like, culturally relevant is can be healing. I can

Kevin, psych nurse 34:02
there's a place for it, you know, yeah, we struggle with with spiritual care with somebody who's super religiously preoccupied in a hospital, right? Where they have this Messiah Complex, where they're very much focused on, on these symptoms that are spiritually based and it's, you know, bringing, you know, the chaplain in or, you know, they get to have access to their, to their literature. I mean, we're not going to be like, No, you can't have your Bible, you know, and it because it's, you know, but it's this fine line of like, how much how much do we support the spiritual care, which is important for a lot of people? And how much do we go? I don't really want to reinforce this until you get stabilized on some medicines and you can use it out like what's

Tyler Tamai 34:47
with the with the cultural component, though, that you're talking about? I think that there's there's lots of times where there are cultures that have this like, deeply ingrained spiritual belief about whether It's like possession and it's in. Yeah, maybe? Well, we view it as with Western medicine, and everything is explaining away mental illness, like what I was just talking about. But along with this, like spiritual approach to mental illness comes a lot of protective factors like family systems that gather around somebody rather than, like, put somebody in an institution, right. So that's like a sort of treatment in itself. And like, there may be a lot of like, mental illness stigma that is exists in these cultures, because a lot of what they consider to be what we would consider mental illness is a spiritual, something that they get they rally around those people. So

Anne Sherry 35:43
well, and I think a lot of our mental illness comes from the that we don't have anybody, you know, I remember trying to like, put a plan together, and it's like, okay, who can we discharge this person to? Nobody? You know, do you have any community? Do you have anything? It's like, no wonder you're going. That I mean, it's a different sort of side of the mental illness that we're we're so desperate in our community connections. Yeah. So I don't really good story about when he was in working in state hospitals, where there was somebody from, I can't remember what culture it was. But he actually went to the head of the state hospital and said, Look, this person thinks that they've been, someone has given them like a stink guy, or something.

Unknown Speaker 36:33
Oh, the evil eye evil.

Tyler Tamai 36:36
And in many cultures, that's a thing.

Anne Sherry 36:38
And he got permission initially, to bring in one of their faith leaders to say, I'm taking this away, and the higher ups caught wind of it, and we're like, absolutely fucking not. are we engaging in that? It was

Alison Cebulla 36:51
interesting. I mean, just give it a try with the flow. And

Kevin, psych nurse 36:55
it goes back to like, people gotta be flexible, man. I mean, if somebody can come in and bless you, and the evil is gone, like so be it, do it.

Tyler Tamai 37:05
Yeah. Much of our medication is like, effectiveness is increased by Yeah, so if the placebo effect applies with some sort of spiritual remedy, then yeah, okay, cool. Let's fucking do it. You

Anne Sherry 37:21
know? Yes.

Alison Cebulla 37:22
Yeah. I'll bet though. I mean, as it has, like a public health scientists, like I'll bet Allison's gonna bum us out. Yeah, I bet the outcomes are not good. You don't I mean, because if if spiritual healing or like exorcism worked, like, if that worked, we'd be doing it.

Kevin, psych nurse 37:37
Well. It would be it's got to be in conjunction with Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 37:40
yeah.

Tyler Tamai 37:42
And I don't think I wasn't thinking of something as extreme as exorcism right now. Plenty of cases that like, yeah, the person fucking died, because they're like too busy splashing with holy water to feed them and bathe them, you know what I mean? But let me

Alison Cebulla 37:58
let me first define Messiah Complex from the dictionary of APA dictionary of psychology, American Psychological Association, Messiah Complex, the desire and compulsion to redeem or save others or the world. And the individual may harbor the delusion of being divine. That's so interesting, because aren't we all divine? You know, like, really? One of the most we're all having a human experience. Like who's to say that's divine or not? But um,

Anne Sherry 38:33
but what's the difference between you seven me growing up, we sort of wanted to, were this latchkey you guys growing up into in the winter to grow up the 90s 80s?

Alison Cebulla 38:43
He was born in 84 and 85. And then so we we had 80s We have 1980s. And a lot of the pop culture from the 90s. Yes, yeah. So, I mean, for

Tyler Tamai 38:56
me, with the end, we have all the Gen Xers

Anne Sherry 38:59
Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 39:01
definitely.

Anne Sherry 39:02
So it wasn't we weren't your parents were it was was my generation. Your parents? No, the one my parents were

Tyler Tamai 39:09
the same. And we

Alison Cebulla 39:09
though. Yeah, yeah. I mean, my mom was born in the 60s. So there's a little bit of overlap. Um, and so I feel that I think there was like, a couple things happening right. So the hands off my grandparents were really hands off. And then so my parents wanted to like the 80s was a lot about like, get your kid like playing the piano like Mozart, like three years old.

Anne Sherry 39:36
So you know, baby, crying and shit. Einstein I'm so

Alison Cebulla 39:40
sorry. A little bit after us. On Air. Oh, no, don't. A little late. This episode. Not this episode. Okay. Not. Okay.

Kevin, psych nurse 39:52
I have a lot for watching Barney. quite ready to go. They're

Tyler Tamai 39:57
not today. Not today. cuz I know,

duration here. We won't do it today, when you brought up the cultural component as far as like, the movies and things that like things that we've seen as children kind of playing into this, I actually so I attended a Christian conference a few years ago. And there was a myriad of speakers and some of them were not Christians, but they were you know, whatever Christian adjacent, I guess. This thing was like, like Mega churchy, like super young hipster Christians, which if you're not familiar, they're they're a big cry,

Anne Sherry 40:45
like the music like you're Yeah, the radio and you're like this song, and then they're like, throw in some Christian lines. And you're like, damn it,

Kevin, psych nurse 40:56
kinda like kill this guy. Christian youth groups are hanging out.

Tyler Tamai 41:01
Look, you don't have to attack me. All right, bro. Anyway, so this guy was talking about, about archetypes. And one of the like, most familiar archetypes is the Messiah, one, where if you look at movies, like, just you could take on like a ton of movies, and you like, go like, zoom out, and then trace it along the lines of like a Jesus type character, where there's this guy who is like, unaware of things that are happening with him, doesn't feel equipped. Then somebody comes along and says, You can do this. And then they get some sort of supernatural stuff like Star Wars did Luke Skywalker? Tony doesn't he's just an idiot farm kid. And Ryan needs a Ben Kenobi who's like, Nah, dude, you're the one and then comes this Messiah type save the world with the force? Or like you said, the example was the matrix, where this dingdong, who works in an office suddenly is beset upon with these circumstances? And a person who's like, Nope, you're the one. And then like, you can see it over and over and over. So for us like to be growing up and influenced by these sort of things. It's like, of course, like, these are the heroes that we've looked to have all had some sort of met our parents, as well. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, like what you were talking about with your family dynamics, and like creating a sort of fantasy world as a coping mechanism, then to fall into that same sort of vein where like, I'm this kind of hero, but it's like, of course, like, this is what we've been raised with this is these are the heroes that we know is like this, like, you know, skeptical Messiah that didn't choose to be a messiah, you know, and for me, that was my experience is like, Man, I don't like I felt this like heaviness like oh, man, I there's a lot of like, bad shit going on. And it doesn't look like anybody else is paying attention. Yes, because I have this special set of like, whatever awareness, meth awareness but you try to tell somebody it's the math and they don't they don't believe you.

Alison Cebulla 43:17
Yeah.

Kevin, psych nurse 43:19
know that's so true Tyler and I think that Alison and your experience in my experience, I mean, you know, growing up together and having really similar similar experiences with our parents, you know, being divorced and having two households right. The one really been the one that to keep it together to to try to use maker being the third the third sibling you know, that was definitely my my role and it kind of still is, you know, like if there's like people call me like on my family, they come to me. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 43:55
same and it's a blessing.

Kevin, psych nurse 43:57
Yeah, totally. And sometimes not so much a blessing because sometimes I need to go to somebody to write but it's this it's it's can come here like call

Tyler Tamai 44:11
we're gonna have to arrange a reunion episode like every week. Discuss DBT

Kevin, psych nurse 44:19
paying her for her sir.

Anne Sherry 44:24
I've got your Venmo you guys are talking about like trying to, like save your families? I guess. I don't know. I mean, were you guys like let Did you roam loose? Like I I could ask my dad to take me to the mall. My bra was stuffed. You know, I'm eight. I've got toilet paper and some training bra. I've got makeup on. I mean, I'm trying to find I'm trying to get picked up. I'm like, look it's 10 I don't know. It just nobody's back. was I wanted out I knew it was good. And when I tried, ma'am like where are the puppies candy the panel vans

Tyler Tamai 45:13
looking for a little strange

Anne Sherry 45:16
all this was before Strange was due

Alison Cebulla 45:22
this is exactly what it was

a rhyme for

Tyler Tamai 45:30
it that's all

Kevin, psych nurse 45:33
on milk cartons and freak out and said you were

Anne Sherry 45:39
okay. This was pretty Yeah, this was pretty that was it? Yeah, when I wasn't realized I wasn't gonna get picked up that I was stuck with that family then I became a hero. So those were my glory days. But you remember when Claudia was like, I was promiscuous, I was like I was all those things by 10. And then I know I gotta save this family. I don't know if I want to save the family. I just have to like create a strong diversion. Like, don't look over here.

Alison Cebulla 46:07
You really kind of were like sia to your family. Peace out. So that's such a curious thing. That's like the difference between Gen X and Millennial because, I mean, obviously, we can't speak for everyone. By the end. These are huge stereotypes. But you had like your style of parenting was so hands off, and ours felt oppressive at times, even though it was also hands off, even though my parents also were not physically around. When they were around. Just like Kevin said, they were also saying to me, you will do something big. And I was talking to the other Kevin, my boyfriend today about it. And he said, Yeah, I felt that too. He was born in the 80s. He's like, I felt that for my parents. But I had this thing where nothing I ever did was good enough.

Anne Sherry 46:53
Hmm. Ouch. But we're also told like you can do or be anything you want. Did you go Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 47:03
And it's such a lie, and aren't

Kevin, psych nurse 47:05
true.

Anne Sherry 47:07
That is the worst.

Alison Cebulla 47:11
Yeah, this is black piece. So I want to hear like if you guys relate to this. So what I heard and all the messaging that I got was you can't do anything you need to set really big goals, you need to do really big things. No one ever defined what that was in my head. It was like save the Earth. I was really like environmentalist, but no one helped me set regular fucking goals, how to make a budget, how to manage your finances, how to pick a major how to follow a career path, what's a reasonable career path, how to make money, how to negotiate a raise, it was like, no, just go out there and save everything.

Tyler Tamai 47:45
You got it. You can do everything.

Alison Cebulla 47:47
Fucking life goals, or none of that existed.

Anne Sherry 47:51
Because where did that come from? Why do we need a sociologist here?

Tyler Tamai 47:58
Yeah, the period like of getting into like the gate program. I'm sure that everybody here was in Yeah. Yeah. I was. I think it was two it was. It was maybe later than then. Yeah, it was after your

Anne Sherry 48:12
time coming up with all kinds of acronyms or names for anyway.

Tyler Tamai 48:15
Okay. He was like a gifted

Alison Cebulla 48:19
and talented education.

Anne Sherry 48:22
Okay, okay.

Tyler Tamai 48:23
I was gonna say, I was gonna say kids who read stuff, good. But yeah, so like, right around that time when there was like discussion at all from like, parents or teachers about like, you know, like, so smart. You're so smart. Like, you have all these capabilities. And like, I just rode that, honestly, it was like, that's all I needed to hear. I fucking knew it. I'm the smartest boy that out without doing any work. And then it was like high school came along. And we'd be like, parent teacher conferences. And this is like, the second time that I was about to get kicked out of AP, and advanced placement, advanced placement. Yeah, hard classes. And the teacher was like, this, he he's talking to my dad, and he's like, he's one of the smartest students in the class. But he just doesn't do any work. So he's not going to make it. And all I heard was, he's the smartest kid and then looking at my dad, because I was probably saying something like, yes. It's like, No, you missed the part where you're failing though, bro. You're gonna have AP shortly thereafter for this, like I

Alison Cebulla 49:34
relate to all that so much. I think Tom has

Anne Sherry 49:37
mentioned that the kids here. Oh, you're so amazing. You're so smart. You're so smart. Those are they they've moved towards sociopath. Sort of

Alison Cebulla 49:45
a little bit. I agree. Yeah. A really bad place to be. I just want to be normal and fit in and have friends. I don't want to be so smart. It takes you out of community. Relationship person. Yeah, I

Tyler Tamai 49:56
feel like this is the second time that I'm getting called out. Yeah. and getting called you know whatever associate

talking about me I knew it oh no I don't believe wow wow

Anne Sherry 50:21
I'm so curious where the swings in parenting go around this like this

Alison Cebulla 50:25
I want to talk about 80s culture because there was there was Live Aid there was what we are the world

Tyler Tamai 50:37
wait ways the world the same as Hands Across America

Alison Cebulla 50:40
was Hands Across America

Tyler Tamai 50:43
with everybody held hands

Anne Sherry 50:48
that was that coke commercial with the light at Christmas 286

Alison Cebulla 50:51
Oh my god. Okay, the knees was white savior Central. Oh my god. Okay, hands across America was a public fundraising event on Sunday, May 25 1986, when five to 6.5 million people held hands for 15 minutes to form a continuous chain

Tyler Tamai 51:09
the across America across the joking.

Anne Sherry 51:15
God

Alison Cebulla 51:16
and they raised

Anne Sherry 51:17
minutes.

Alison Cebulla 51:19
Yeah, for me it was it was the We Are the World. Oh. We are the world. Combine. Thank you Tyler events raised almost 100 million to fight famine in Africa, which is like we as what European not us personally, but the European settlers decimated Africa. Like, problem. And then we were like patting ourselves on the back with like, we will hold hands.

Tyler Tamai 51:46
I want to see I want to see like the spreadsheet of like the allocation of those funds, man. Oh,

Anne Sherry 51:55
yes. Yeah. Where'd all that money go? Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 51:57
Okay. And then Live Aid. Wait, hold on Live Aid. It was a benefit concert held on Saturday 13th. July 1985. See, this was like, right, the what we were born into doing. I mean, this, like, save the world? atmosphere. This is right when we were born. And it was a music based fundraising initiative, raising funds for relief of the 1983 to 85 famine in Ethiopia. And what were you going to say, Kevin?

Kevin, psych nurse 52:25
Did you guys listen to that podcast that came out this land? It was like in 2019. And it was about Native Americans here. Okay, now, like the Indian Child Welfare acts and white families, adopting native children to save them, you know, it's it's, it's so it's so bad. So so this this welfare act, it came out, like I think right before the 80s it was like 78 or something and it's to protect native children from being removed from you know, their specific nation or family. Keep them you know, if they have parents that are lackluster to keep them in with their people, with their family with with other Native Americans. Because us white people are just scooping them up. We're gonna save their lives, we're gonna take them into a place that they don't know, they don't have any access to their culture. They don't have any access to their family, their traditions, and

Tyler Tamai 53:27
then discipline them if they don't assimilate well. Yeah, yes. And so I mean, like, this is like, not very traumatic or ugly, like a pretty established constant, you know, yeah. 100% 100%

Kevin, psych nurse 53:38
So this land it's, I wrote her name down Rebecca, Rebecca Nagel. And she's, she's a native Native American. And she follows these stories about big lawyers big law firms trying to challenge this this native Native American Child Welfare Act. But there's all because these white people want to adopt these babies but there's there's people in the community that are like, no, these this is this is our community. These are our people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the white savior situation, right. We're gonna, you know, we, we did it in California with the with the missions, and we're gonna we're gonna do

Tyler Tamai 54:20
Can I can I like add a little just like a side thing on this. And then I swear, we'll return back to topic. So I was having this great question. I think Hands Across America, last I checked was what we're talking about. Anyway. Yes. So I was writing this paper was for school is a project I don't you know, whatever. And I was doing this interview with a friend of mine who is an indigenous person and part of a tribe down in San Diego and his history because it's pretty fucking dark and like, the atrocities that we just did on the rag And anyway, so I go through this whole history and like what you're talking about Kevin, where we went in and removed families, stripped them of their culture, you know, gave him all the trappings of white man life, you know, because we're so gracious. Anyway, so I'm doing this project with him. And then he's like, hey, you know, like, I want to tell you about, we're like trying to recapture some of this culture and like relearning this language that has been dying. And like, there's this pretty big movement. And I was like, Man, that's amazing. That's so cool. And he's like, here, man. Um, I want to share this with you. And it was a recording of some of like, the the tribes like bird songs and stuff like that. And me being the ignorant asshole that I am. I was like, Dude, can I get Can I get a copy of this recording? Because I would love to, like, share this. And he's like, leans back. And he's like, Dude, are you serious? And I was like, What are you talking about? And he's like, I'm telling you this because we're like, friends like this is we don't share this with people. This is ours. And like, you like disseminating it is like breaking my trust. Like, I don't want to share this recording with anybody. This is like, this is special. And you're just gonna, like, try to get an A with it. And I was like, Damn, dude, that's exactly what I was gonna do. So what's happening? No, just kidding. I didn't. That was it. But it really like it was the same sort of thing where I was like, oh, man, like, here. I come to like, educate all these people. Because I'm, I'm the guy, you know. And he's like, No, man. That's not That's not the business student. We've got. Interesting. Yeah. It was like, taking like a leap of trust in me. Yeah. And like, I was just like, oh, well, now. Now this is like mine to do with what I want. Because, you know,

Anne Sherry 56:48
that sounds so American. Or American. We know that we're not yeah, we're just not. We're not

Tyler Tamai 57:00
so entitled. Like, God. I was so grateful for that experience, because it really like put me in check for that. But anyway, like, because I'm the Messiah. It seems like we're bringing it back around. Like, you know, I really believe that about myself.

Alison Cebulla 57:16
So what does it say about about Western culture especially and again, like, and Tyler are Christian people, so none of us are? None of us are bashing Christianity whatsoever. You are stop. I got a Christian like, and clearly doesn't have religious trauma because she loves going to church and she's talked to someone who has trauma.

Anne Sherry 57:42
Well, half the people that go to the church I go to I think are atheists are they? Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 57:46
yeah. But all I'm

Tyler Tamai 57:49
really, really progressive church as well. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 57:51
And I love progressive, my progressive church. And so I'm what I'm saying is like, I'm not bashing Christianity at all. I'm just want to explore some of these topics, which is, what does it say? Or what does it maybe mean? Or what do you guys think it means about, like Western culture being directly influenced widely by the Bible, it's like the most important book, and that the story of the Bible is this is the Messiah is like saving is all about saving, saving your souls, saving people spreading the gospel, making sure souls are saved that it uh,

Kevin, psych nurse 58:24
you know, it's really, it's really tough. You know, my, my experience, my folks were pretty, pretty open mind. They are pretty open minded individuals. And as soon as I was like, Hey, I don't, I'm not really feeling this. I don't want to go to church anymore. And, you know, my dad being he was a pastor for a long time, and then had stopped because he had to make some money and wasn't, wasn't making money. He was like, yeah, if you know, I'm not going to make you go because you're not going to get anything out of it. Yeah, he went away against, like, norms that, you know, you baptize your children, you know, when when there's small kids, you get them baptized, and that, you know, I don't know a whole lot about what that means. But it's like a, you're, you know, you're bringing in the Holy Spirit into their life and you're dedicating them to this belief system. And he never baptized us because he wanted he was a born again, Christian, like at like 18 or 19. So he didn't have it growing up. So what he wanted was for us to make our own decisions as to whether we, this was something that we wanted to have in our life as, as an adult, whatever. So I always respected him for that, you know, I've never been baptized. So at most, I think all three of my other siblings have been baptized, you know, when they later in life as as adults. So they were pretty, pretty open minded folks. That being said, you know, there's a lot of really heavy stuff as a kiddo that you're listening to, like really big concepts of like Jesus, and you know him, you know, coming back from the dead and and saving people and if you accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your Lord and Savior, you're gonna go to heaven and you're not going to go to hell. That's some wild stuff.

Alison Cebulla 1:00:11
But actually, now that you say it like that, and

Anne Sherry 1:00:15
this fucking division, why are you in and you I that's always what confused me. And

Kevin, psych nurse 1:00:19
I remember having some religious conversations with my dad about like, I was like, But Dad, what about the people that don't know about Jesus? Do they? And they're good people? Do they? Do they go to hell? He was like, Well, son, that's a good question. Everyone is going to have the opportunity to learn about Jesus. And so everyone will have the opportunity to except

Alison Cebulla 1:00:41
interesting,

Kevin, psych nurse 1:00:42
and I was like, crossing like, like, I don't, it doesn't seem possible. Right. And, you know, but it's love. Community is huge. And we got a lot of that in, in the church. Right, we got a lot of that. And I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful. There's also some kind of trippy things where it was like, my dad would, he would speak in tongues at times. And it was I actually looked it up today was about that.

Tyler Tamai 1:01:14
I'm super familiar with a lot of the

Kevin, psych nurse 1:01:17
loss loss of laelia is actually what it's called. Yeah. And so it's it's, God is speaking through you. The Holy Spirit is channeling like this language that is in your in your past and your history that somehow you know, and it's in your it's in your spiritual mind and long history of you're channeling this holy language. And it's, it's gibberish. It's it's there's no English word or Spanish word or it's theirs. It's yeah. And so I use

Anne Sherry 1:01:52
it on I think I loved

Kevin, psych nurse 1:01:54
it. When was it? Yeah, I used to ask me I love Star Trek, because I thought it was so I was like, Whoa, like my dad is channeling like the Holy Spirit. I

Anne Sherry 1:02:07
would have scared the fuck out of me.

Kevin, psych nurse 1:02:10
Because every night in bed, right he would pray right? Or Jesus protect my kiddos and all the all the good things, right? Yeah. Speaking tongues. tongues, and you'd be like now Lin. And that's what it sounds like.

Anne Sherry 1:02:26
He could just turn it on. It wasn't like

Alison Cebulla 1:02:28
he was he was channeling the spirit.

Anne Sherry 1:02:33
side. I thought it was something besides not not a faucet. Like,

Tyler Tamai 1:02:38
there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of like the modern. Oh yeah, Anna costal like gifts of the Spirit. Say Instagram really? That really steers. Like away from what like biblically it says now and again. I'm not like, I don't want to bash on anybody's faith. And like, if this is the thing that like, absolutely next you with God, then like, please, by all means, like do it. However. So I know for a fact that in the Bible, there's one of the epistles that says that tongues must be interpreted. Paul, the apostle, who wrote like, two thirds of the Bible is like, he says himself that like it's useless if nobody can understand you. If you're just speaking in this, then then what is what good does that do for the faith for anything? And I think that personally, like my own take on it is that misuse of this kind of understanding is dangerous for people who like feel coerced into speaking in tongues, or coerced into practicing some sort of gift to the spirit when they don't feel that because then it's like, what are you building your faith on? You're just going along with something and maybe, at the worst, obviously, like pretending. And so then when it comes time to actually feel the need to lean on some sort of faith, then what do you have? Because like, oh, man, my, my experience with tongues was a pastor or priest, or whoever told me that I needed to do this. So I did it. And I didn't know what I was doing. I just spoken gibberish. So maybe none of its real, right. You know what I mean? Like, it's dangerous. It is dangerous.

Kevin, psych nurse 1:04:28
Did you guys I liked that perspective. Tyler, did you guys listen to not the episode that was just released today and on a little bit cold tea, but the one prior it was a two. And it was with Alice Gretchen. Yeah, she was she like really, really like a particular type of Christianity. Where you know, and my parents were involved in this to where like, you know, the pastor will lay their hands on you, and they'll heal you and you have some experience and your brain in the spirit or whatever. And so she grew up in this type of face and she's, you know, gone from from being a Christian to being an ATS but also processing a lot of like, sexual repression and different things that come along with the purity culture that Christians out there and not everything, right? Like you're not in your you know, it's not your body, it's your husband's body and God's going to tell you when that person has access to it and all this kind of weird shit. But she her podcast was really great. She had a lot of a lot of insights, but but she describes this moment where she's like six or seven years old. And she has always said like, oh, I, I don't hear God's voice. Like it's like God speak. Right? Right, right, right. It's like, well, I don't, I'm not experiencing that. So maybe there's something wrong with me, whatever. But there was a moment where she was going to have this, this experience with the pastor where you put their hands on the head, and they fall down and they do the things and they're full of the Holy Spirit or whatever. She was like, I didn't, that wasn't happening. And I kept waiting for it to happen. And then she described the man pushing her onto the ground by literally pushing her onto the ground and forcing her to have this experience. And it's just my god,

Tyler Tamai 1:06:12
like, yeah, so upsetting. Awful, because that what

Kevin, psych nurse 1:06:15
you say Tyler is like, it undermines folks that don't do this, right, where it's where it's faith, and love and community and a belief in some something greater than yourself. It takes away from a lot of that when you have,

Alison Cebulla 1:06:31
like, Kevin, you and I would have been the kids to be like, it's true. God is talking to me the same way,

Tyler Tamai 1:06:44
I felt the same way. But I like, like, as far as like, direct line with, you know, the secret of the universe. But tongues is where like, when I saw other people speaking in tongues when I was in like high school. I was like, what? I know. I went I went to, to a youth group thing because like a couple friends were like, oh, yeah, it's kind of like, whatever. Like just putting it out, like, cool. Like, let's see.

Alison Cebulla 1:07:12
That was available to do. Yeah, and he was

Tyler Tamai 1:07:15
like, and there was like, an offshoot of this, like, popular like, cool kid church, you know? And so I went, and it was like, Yeah, hanging out in the church basement, you know, like, whatever they like. And then they get like, came time to pray. And everyone's just doing their thing. And then the lady who's like leading it just breaks out in you know, gobbledygook. And I was I like, I was intuitive until that point, and they just stood up and I was like, What? What is this? Like, you know, I didn't know what speaking in tongues. Phones exist.

Anne Sherry 1:07:47
So I could text my mom to get out of here. Yeah,

Tyler Tamai 1:07:52
come pick me up. Mom. I'm scared. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:07:56
Jesus Camp. Did you see? Yeah, you need to read you need to watch Jesus Camp.

I mean, so much.

I just, like what is this thing where you have to be, there's something this connection of having to be special, you know, like, I have to be special and it has, I have to believe it's like, somehow connected to parental love or cultural love salutely.

Alison Cebulla 1:08:22
And like, why can't we I don't understand.

Anne Sherry 1:08:25
I as I get older, I'm just like, Can we all just fucking be kind to each other and not try to force each other? Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:08:34
Okay. Messiah. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:08:43
I'm like, no, no, like, I don't want to follow anybody out

Alison Cebulla 1:08:47
there every time. What were you gonna say?

Tyler Tamai 1:08:50
I really wonder about like, as far as what we were talking about earlier, as like family dynamic kind of stuff. And being this child put into a role that no child is ever really bad equipped for. Being told that not only are you special, but like the family needs you to be special. Because you're like, you're the showpony here like, yeah. expression of our family. Yes. And so when, when in that position, I know for me, I didn't feel that way. I felt I felt overwhelmed. I didn't feel like all these things other than like, Yeah, I know that I'm smart, but the work the workload, and like having to be this person, like that's not who I am. And so, it makes sense to me like to like, I don't feel this kind of hero, but I've been told and programmed to believe that I've got to do something special. And so just again, like for drugs, or depression or whatever it is that drove me to have some sort of triggered mental illness thing. It's like maybe this is the special that I'm supposed to feel Because I sure as shit, don't feel this stuff.

Alison Cebulla 1:10:02
Oh my god, thank you for saying that, that actually, that's a huge like, moment for me because there's and I'll post this in the show notes, but there's that great video about how childhood trauma leads to substance misuse by Gabor Ma Tei, where it's like this animated thing with his words, and it's so good. But it's he talks about that the visual in the film is the person's using drugs. And it's like a big warm, glowing hug. So it's, so this goes to what you're saying. And it's like, it's, it's weird, the dichotomy between the words, you're so special, you're the hero of our family, you need to save the family, and you probably need to save the world, the earth and of every dying species. Well, I

Tyler Tamai 1:10:42
mean, like, that is a kid's world is their family. World.

Alison Cebulla 1:10:46
That's right, but at the same time, at the same time, I'm feeling like something is missing. The nurturance is not there. That is such a weird contrast of like, but can I just have a hug? Or could you just ask me how my day was, wasn't there? So then you grow up and you feel this pressure? And the drugs come in? And you know, I was a meth user cocaine, alcohol? I don't know. Few other fun ones. And they may and they may ask you, especially some math, I think, like, gives you I mean, there's that whole book that I love about Hitler, being on math, you know, like, math is like, well, I could do anything and be anything. It's like, oh, now I'm that person that you said I was going to be and for

Kevin, psych nurse 1:11:36
Eric Yeah. Well, and oftentimes that that's the road to a budding mental illness, right. So you have you have these thoughts as a child, you have some neglect and, and you you are going to be the Savior, right? And then and then implement it, and then you maybe start messing around with some drugs and alcohol, you're you're 1819 and then boom, right? And then and then these these Messiah, complex. It's a classic presentation of a lot of these psycho psychotic disorders,

Tyler Tamai 1:12:05
bipolar, two, schizophrenia. schizoaffective. Oh, yeah, all the Messianic stuff.

Kevin, psych nurse 1:12:10
Like it's, it's, it's really interesting. Like, why why? Why is that? Why is that? Why is that where our brain goes? I,

Tyler Tamai 1:12:20
I think that what Ali was saying, as far

or Well, we were talking about the, the hero child or whatever the in this dynamic and feeling that way, whether or not it's spoken, or just an unspoken thing, because family dynamics don't have to be you know what I mean? So, but what Ali was saying, like, can I just have a hug, like we don't, in this role, we don't learn to regulate or self soothe, because right doing doing so or admitting that we need these things emotionally, would be outside of the role that's been established for me. Oh, my God,

Alison Cebulla 1:12:58
thank you for saying that.

Anne Sherry 1:13:01
Start to feel the terror of not having it so

Tyler Tamai 1:13:07
like, yeah, through through the building that fantasy role or or whatever, then when the mental illness or the drugs or whatever, it kicks it off and like yeah, like this, I'm, I'm this person. I am this I've been telling myself all wrong. Except that I'm this hero. And now it's like, finally clear to me totally. In this like, mental illness fiasco. I

Kevin, psych nurse 1:13:33
can hear your voice in my head.

Anne Sherry 1:13:36
Yeah. Where's that? Where's the shame? Like? For me, like, I think because I had a there was a sibling in the who was off the rails. Like, I wasn't, I have little secret moments of that. Like, I don't know, I dropped acid when I was 18 and Ubers to Colorado. And I was like, I had no idea. I was fucking frat party. It was so obviously trying to convince us of frat guys I was like, You're a stork, you know that right? Like, you're like clearly he was like a matter of fucking stork. I'm like, You're a stork, you know, so I was. I didn't know that everybody for your journeys. I know. Anyways, I soon learned I was like, Oh, I didn't know I was on this path of this this this and this and it kind of went off here but I wasn't really allowed that like it couldn't be messy in my world so I don't know I mean, because the I don't know Kevin do you have in common where you amass user record or just I mean, I'm so I'm just like so enamored, almost, but like, the

Alison Cebulla 1:14:53
the we got to be messy. You got

Anne Sherry 1:14:55
to be fucking and then you and then you've come around. and you're like, productive members of society want to answer that?

Alison Cebulla 1:15:04
It's not fucking fair. No. Kevin had a kid Kevin had a kid, Kevin, and he was like, I am gonna provide and he told him okay, gather.

Anne Sherry 1:15:15
Kevin, would you like to go on retreat with me and get fucked up on everything that these two

go on retreat and just like have a maybe I just do a virtual reality or something but just lose it. Yeah. That feels being

Kevin, psych nurse 1:15:36
important. Yeah, you know, my parents were very much. They knew where we were all the time. And they were very much like, this is what you're going to do. You're going to you're going to play the piano, you're going to go to all the sports like I remember, my mom had this calendar that was highlighted with all the Ford kids activities and all this stuff.

Anne Sherry 1:15:56
Heard about those look? Yeah, busy. Yeah. But then

Kevin, psych nurse 1:15:59
that kind of fell away. When my parents got divorced. It was like, you just did whatever we want. And I saw my mom that I'm at my dad's house. And I told my dad, I'm at my mom's

Tyler Tamai 1:16:14
is a little bit of both.

Alison Cebulla 1:16:16
Yeah. Um, I wanted to I wanted to bring trauma back into the conversation, because that's what I always do. I'm really fun at parties, and can confirm. Which is that when we were talking about the Bible, and Jesus has mental health, and the Bible actually saying things like, we thought that Jesus had a demon. I wanted to talk about that, that demoness because my ex boyfriend, Kevin, who passed away a few weeks ago, who we talked about in episode 20, with the Kevin, who's here today, was really fixated on demons, he had schizophrenia. And he every one was a demon, everything was a demon. And sometimes he was a demon. And he had a lot of ACEs adverse childhood experiences, including a lot of sexual trauma, so and so do I, um, that when Freud actually was doing his original research on hysteria, and women, what he found was that to be the common denominator, was sexual abuse and childhood. And it's interesting how the demon terminology has seems to be very pervasive in Western culture. But when we're kind of looking at, like, what's the demon, because the demon is like this dark shadowy figure that we can't really look at, but feels very painful and hurtful, and we just want to exercise it out of ourselves. But when you sort of look at like, what is the what is the actual demon, it's it's abuse, it's sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and we don't, in our society, we have never, ever looked at in the face. Because even when Freud found this with his research, he had to table the research, because no one wanted to hear it. No one wanted to hear it. So he turned it on his head and said, Oh, nevermind, sorry, that's not what my dad has said, because he wanted to fit in, in his field. And so he stuck, he invented all this stuff about how children are the demons. Children just come out of the womb as demons, and they're just running around trying to, you know, mess with all of us, you know, and that which perpetuates the cycle of child abuse. Yeah. And so, but I've seen is like, when you get down to some of these religious concepts, I wonder if all along, we're just avoiding talking about child abuse?

Anne Sherry 1:18:32
Forever. It's not well, in your therapists office, I think it's coming, you know, and then, you know, this other piece to just how delicate that can be, there was a whole 80s thing of recovered memories that are Oh, yeah, we're not true. You know, or maybe some of them were true, but then you get all they all get lumped in to.

Tyler Tamai 1:18:53
So memories are so unreliable. They really are.

Anne Sherry 1:18:57
I mean, I think the neuro. I don't know. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:19:03
Reliable. Our memories are unreliable, but child abuse is underreported. Yeah. Under acknowledged. Yeah. Yeah. And so

Kevin, psych nurse 1:19:17
it was a powerful statement saying that demon is the trial

Anne Sherry 1:19:20
grade. And how do we tell the truth on this? And how do you do it safely? And because if you just, you know, you start telling people, and then they're, you know, like, should keep it quiet or don't, you know, there's all these family protection and it's generations of that so, I don't know, like, until we can tell the truth. I also the piece here too, about child abuse. We know that the abuse, the abusers are generally abused, you know? Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:19:51
definitely. Definitely. Running, running the church, running for

Anne Sherry 1:19:56
church. I mean, until we can until we can Um, make space for our perpetrators as also part of humanity.

Alison Cebulla 1:20:06
I agree with that

Anne Sherry 1:20:07
again, happen. It's a special specialty. I mean ifs would say, why wouldn't you take on perpetrator energy? That's the one who had all the power while you were being abused? So it's just a it's a way can

Alison Cebulla 1:20:19
you define what it means? Because I really like that in ifs about taking on the perpetrator energy. Can you just define like,

Anne Sherry 1:20:25
you're being you know, you're, you're a little kid, and you're being abused. And it's like, Well, God, who has all the power here, so I abuser, the abuser, right, so I will become that I will die. Right. Right. Right, be that. And there's

Tyler Tamai 1:20:41
just in order to combat that feeling. Combat. Exactly. So and all that and the other companies all we want to do from there

Anne Sherry 1:20:49
completely. So I'm not. We need accountability, obviously. But until we can make a justice system that says, Holy fuck, it's trauma all the way fucking down. Yeah, we're gonna have to rework everything, you know, rather than like, I don't want to look at that. Let's put the shadows but we just keep locking the demons away, right? Yeah. So there's a demon and OS, and then there's the actual demons and then let's just lock them up. And let's put them on. Sexual Predator lists all of them.

Alison Cebulla 1:21:20
So did you hear about

Kevin, psych nurse 1:21:21
this, this this doctor that I'm just looking it up now? Because I remember hearing about it. And she was there is some really awful shit going on. I get that. Yeah. She conducted this research with with folks who are sexually attracted to children that don't you understand? You know, the, it's all about her office around it. And there was a huge controversy. She had to resign. Or maybe it's it maybe it's I don't ya, Alan Walker, a long dark shadow minor attracted people in their pursuit of dignity. And trying to understand the reason I bring that up is trying to understand, you know, yeah, sexual trauma and abuse is terrible. And people shouldn't do it. And there should be punishment, and it's God awful. But where does it come from? And how can we better understand it so that we can read it? So?

Tyler Tamai 1:22:13
Yeah, like, like what Ali was saying earlier that it's like, so wildly underreported, that like, in order to like, get in front of it, like being able to report those things is like key, because then if there is abuse, it's not just about like, punishing or segregating an abuser. It's about getting talking to the child or whomever was abused, and being able to, like, work through it. So that like, what Dan was saying, they don't like take on the perfect. Are they? Exactly,

Alison Cebulla 1:22:44
yeah. Trade a row. Yeah.

Tyler Tamai 1:22:47
But without without a report, though. And then we don't don't know to get in front of it. And certainly with like, like, it's a, unfortunately, like, a cultural thing for you know, however many decades and decades and decades that, like, there's so many different facets of that, that we see. And like, in recent history, we kind of see, like it's unraveling, or becoming more apparent, you know, and it's kind of like a delicate time, because it's like, how we deal with this is going to dictate, like, the next generation of whether or not they're going to get treatment that like prevents future generations.

Kevin, psych nurse 1:23:31
Yeah, the reporting and that's and that's also the great work that you're doing in public health with this ASUS stuff. I mean, that's, for sure. It's awesome. It's so awesome. And to to d stigmatize it to D stigmatize the fact that you were abused and to be comfortable and in a process and understanding that and reporting it, like you said, is so huge. But also let's look, let's look at the offenders as well. Like it's, you know, if if we can create some sort of treatment process and you know, maybe people are like, fuck, fuck these guys, lock them up, or whatever. Okay, well, like you were saying in most of the time, they're victims of abuse as well and not to make it okay for their for their actions at all at all. But let's look at their we can understand how to stop

Tyler Tamai 1:24:20
his rehabilitation, focusing on rehabilitation. I

Anne Sherry 1:24:23
think it just goes to dignity. I just keep like the I love that term. Like how do we create a society of dignity? Do you know like, but we keep doing this thing. I gotta save it all or I got to do and you you exhaust yourself. I'm thinking like the 80s about you 80s 80s 90s Kids fucking exhausted because it's like, it's too much you're not supposed to do

Alison Cebulla 1:24:49
and I would say and that while I'm in I'm glad you brought up dignity is that during my teenage years and 20s When I was in the mental illness, that was my Masonic complex my savior complex. I my dignity was at a low point and I kept re traumatizing myself with different sexual experiences, financial experiences, career experiences that were just I was constantly I did on my worth was self worth was low, it wasn't realistic, it was like go make a realistic difference. It was like go make a weird Messiah Complex difference. And I didn't have the tools. And I kept re traumatizing myself and my dignity was just getting less and less and less. And it it was I was really tough to recover from that. And, and I almost worried that I wasn't going to and so like, you know, in Episode 20, where I shared that I had to check myself into a psychiatric hospital when that world came crashing down, and I realized what I had built and it needed to come down. I almost thought I wasn't going to make it out on the other side.

Anne Sherry 1:25:57
Or if you want to lay or if you want to lay right. Yeah, right.

Alison Cebulla 1:26:02
Right. I didn't know how to do it and wake up and do my life anymore without the delusions? I don't know. Right. Right.

Anne Sherry 1:26:13
Well, a life of dignity really isn't sanctioned. It feels like it you know, right? I don't know. I just get so curious. How are we driving by people who are homeless? How do we have any of this shit this is the richest nation in monetary but like we're so caring bankrupt, we have barely anything in our like, caring,

Tyler Tamai 1:26:36
I'm missing the help are not profitable. So Oh,

Alison Cebulla 1:26:42
yeah. But even

Anne Sherry 1:26:44
like the spirituality guys call it late stage capital, they just call it late stage capitalist. Right? It's like going to end stage capitalism. I was like, Oh, right. Right. It's gonna fail. Right? Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:26:54
I have example, the small example of undignified, you know, work situation where I thought I needed to do mission based work, which I'm kind of trying to get out of, because it's like, I want to save myself. First, I want to make an income that supports my life. And so you know, I want that for myself. I want self care. And so I want to thank you, Tyler. So, I'm

Tyler Tamai 1:27:21
Loki mad that you don't just get that. I'm like, like, what Anne was saying, like, why don't we just fucking get this? Ya

Alison Cebulla 1:27:27
know, the perpetrators, you know, of, of this stuff where I my already had self worth. They were out there waiting for me, you know. And so I moved. I moved to New York City and I accepted a job where they had misconstrued and manipulated kind of the numbers I was supposed to be selling Fairtrade products when I got there, which was the industry I was working at a fair trade is like where people in developing countries get paid a fair living wage to make handicrafts. And so I moved there. These products were not even handicrafts. They were actually they said, they were helping women with HIV in Thailand. And it turned out that these this collective of women, they were actually very sick. And in the hospital, a tenant couldn't make anything. They were buying stuff from the market that was made in China, shipping it to us and saying they'd handmade it, and they wanted me to sell the stuff in the in the US. And it was a Catholic charity. And the woman who was my boss, who was an Catholic nun, would come into my office everyday, close the door, sit down and just berate me for a half an hour and then leave. And I wasn't. I wasn't.

Anne Sherry 1:28:36
We have not ventured Catholicism here yet. I.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:39
Yeah. So I wasn't making enough to live. I was making about probably half of what I needed to live in New York. And and then they let me go. They didn't even have enough funding for my position that never could have worked. And they let me go four months later, and I'd moved my whole life across the country. But if I had had dignity, before I applied for that job. The red flags were definitely there.

Anne Sherry 1:29:02
Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Well, that's, that's it. We don't recognize anything I was. Anyway. I've been just like, it's fine. It's fine. You know, I think we I don't know. You got to have access to your emotions and your feelings. Like that makes me sad. And being sad like I'm okay. No having why not? Oh, sorry. Here. It does. Yes. So, this is getting really interesting because I fell skiing. Whatever day I can't remember. Monday, Friday, I fucked my knee up. Damn it getting better. I know, but I like getting hurt. I was like, noticing I'm getting sad. And I'm like, starting to feel bad about myself. And I think it is this just perpetual. Like, I won't be bothered or I won't be taken care of or that's just there. So I don't like to get hurt. But I got this fucking fabulous nine and a half year old that's like, are you okay? You know, and he woke up and he was like, how's your And the mama has your knee. Can I get you something I know and I just started crying and they hugged me. And I'm like, What are you doing? What is your angle? What do you want from me? What's going on?

Unknown Speaker 1:30:15
codependent now.

Kevin, psych nurse 1:30:16
Feelings I know. And accessibility scared

Anne Sherry 1:30:21
of it. Yeah, he's not scared of it. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:30:25
I know. I

Tyler Tamai 1:30:26
can totally relate like, like, instilling this in my children to be caring and empathetic and everything. Yeah, but at the same time when it's like towards me, yeah, but what's your angle? What's your goal stub my toe and be like out and my kid will be like, Oh my god, are you okay? And I'm like, Oh, what are you doing Tai Chi mad at I'm like,

Anne Sherry 1:30:51
exactly where I go.

I know. That's exactly what it is. So I'm like, you know, we can do it. You know, we just I, you know, I'm coming to more clarity because there's like, what's the what's the thing I'll do? EMDR I'll do psychedelics. I'll heal this way. And I really am starting to get to a place of like, I may have been born without emotional legs. Do you know like, or not born? Or that's what happened. So there's no amount of like, why can't you work? Why can't you emotionally walk, you know, and it's like, my legs get cut off my emotional legs come flocking cut off. Like, I'm working on prosthetics, but it's never going to look like I'm in the Para Olympics of motion

Tyler Tamai 1:31:44
and I'm drawing that analogy all the way up to its metaphor. So proud of your dedication to that?

Anne Sherry 1:31:54
Battery, my battery.

Alison Cebulla 1:31:58
What sorry?

Anne Sherry 1:31:59
Yes, my computer's about to die. I'm gonna

Kevin, psych nurse 1:32:03
make some emotional battery. Oh, my well have empathy

Tyler Tamai 1:32:08
drives emotional prosthetics. They don't have batteries.

Anne Sherry 1:32:16
Anyways, the Olympics, that's where it came from the Olympics is on so I'm getting a little clearer on that. And I'm going to try a lot less harder to fucking fix myself and just try to feel some flashes up who you exactly are no, thank you, Alison. Yeah, I'm gonna compartmentalize this shit out. There's another fucking shit. Yeah. All right. And you

Alison Cebulla 1:32:35
might drop off to the drop off. Yeah. Like I talked too much. So sorry, Tyler. But

Tyler Tamai 1:32:43
I felt the same way about myself. So

Anne Sherry 1:32:47
well, you want to know, anything you want to be?

Tyler Tamai 1:32:52
Together? We can together.

Anne Sherry 1:32:55
All right, hands across zoom.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:03
Tyler, thank you so much for joining again, because I just felt like to me, like we just barely scratched the surface and in the episodes where we hosted you to about some of these deeper issues. And again, I feel like there's a lot more here but I've, I have been feeling so much better about my own fucked up story by sharing it and discussing it with others. And I've been having these conversations with the two of you and realizing oh, there was some weird 80s Parenting happening here that set us up for this particular mental illness that didn't exist for Gen X. And so if you're a listener and you want to tell us about your experience with this, we absolutely want to hear it um, just send us an email at latchkey urchins@gmail.com Or go to latchkey urchins.com and click the Listen. Tell us button. Because we I do want to hear if that was your experience or not. But I just it's been so healing and I've been finding that I'm having better and more open conversations about the weirder stuff. I don't like admitting that I was delusional. I don't like admitting that at all. But the more I do, the more I open it up for people to go Yeah, me too. And then I feel better the shame goes away. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:34:11
agreed. Thank you. I realized I'm way more fucked up than I thought I was Allison. I appreciate that. I thought I was on the other side.

Alison Cebulla 1:34:21
Yeah, I'll get trophies. Yeah.

Tyler Tamai 1:34:25
Yes, it's mine. Is mine bigger than

Alison Cebulla 1:34:30
Yes, Tyler.

Tyler Tamai 1:34:33
I worked really hard to save you guys. So you're welcome.

Alison Cebulla 1:34:37
Yes. Any final time Kevin and

Anne Sherry 1:34:40
I'll be starting. Drug safe. Get fucked up drug for a treat. So we can do what Alison and Tyler got to go through, you know, really your own journey. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:34:51
I don't feel the need to go to those because I know you're not invited. Because you can't Yeah, I didn't

Anne Sherry 1:35:02
got it already. I need the full circle that shit. So any any final words, Kevin, and I'm here to support you

Tyler Tamai 1:35:12
in your endeavors

Kevin, psych nurse 1:35:14
No, I appreciate it. Like I said I before you guys do great work and I'm just really I feel really fortunate to be a part of it. So thank you for talking about this stuff because you know what we got to do.

Alison Cebulla 1:35:26
Thanks. Thanks everyone. Okay,

Anne Sherry 1:35:29
yeah

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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24 - Mature for Their Age: The Parentified Child Explained—with guest Madeliene Warren, therapist
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22 - Historical Trauma Never Takes a Day Off—with guest Dr. Donielle Prince