25 - Being Scene: The Healing Power of Parties, Raves, and Social Gatherings—with guest Evan Cudworth, Party Coach

Episode Notes
Written By

This week Anne and Alison talk with Evan Cudworth, The World's 1st Party Coach, about his mission to help people party with iThis week Anne and Alison talk with Evan Cudworth, The World's 1st Party Coach, about his mission to help people party with intention. We hear his personal story about growing up in small-town, Christian, Illinois, and then joining a fraternity in college and coming out as gay. We hear about the careers he tried before realizing and inventing his dream job. Evan shares with us the benefits of different types and levels of sobriety and all the benefits of enjoying a strong social life through parties, raves, and other social gatherings—especially when done as a way to connect rather than escape.

EVAN PAUL CUDWORTH is a musician who believes that a great "party" is a tribal event: a portal to human connection we can only achieve together as a group. But after spending practically every weekend of the last 15 year at a bar, concert, festival, or nightclub, Evan experienced the extreme highs and lows that alcohol and drugs contribute to our social scene. 

He's now on a mission to inspire people to take a closer look at WHY we really “party," and teaches anyone how to experience & enjoy "short-term-sobriety" (1 - 3 months) and regain their natural confidence while connecting without anxiety. In this space of clarity, you can set clear intentions for WHY they party: Escape? Find a lover? Network for your career? 

Inside these intentions are the healthy habits and freedom to then sustainably reintegrate alcohol/substances in a way that leaves you and your social circle feeling fulfilled and connected. 

Find Evan on Instagram: @evan_cudworth

Subscribe to the VIBE CURATOR newsletter & learn more about "Detoxify your Social Life," a 7 week group coaching course in short term sobriety: https://hoo.be/evancudworth

Audio engineering by Josh Collins.
Episode music: "One Cloud is Lonely" by Proxima Parada.

Intro Show Notes:

Interview Show Notes:

Science Corner:

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.

Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families. I got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend you are wanted here

Alison Cebulla 1:21
okay, we're super excited for today's interview with Evan Cudworth, a party coach, which is a profession he invented and we just love our conversation with him. So

Anne Sherry 1:36
I'm in the wrong. I'm in the wrong field. A party coach sounds really good. Stay tuned. My 60s. Pretty cool. This therapy thing?

Alison Cebulla 1:46
Yeah, I love that for your journey. So first off, we have a couple of business items. We have a YouTube channel and we're super excited. We just did our first YouTube video. That's not that's like a bonus that's not the podcast and so we look at the Humans of New York story about this woman who has a lot of childhood trauma herself and somewhat perpetuates that legacy a little bit with her children but does overcome and heal and so and and I and and I do a commentary on that Humans of New York stories who go check out our YouTube channel. And we'll link to that in the show notes. But it's the latchkey Urchins on YouTube.

Anne Sherry 2:33
Wow. It kind of makes me think I'm like, Whoa, I'm like August and his he watches Minecraft and videos all day. And like the commentary and like, I guess it's gonna be like, so happy to see that. I'm like, on YouTube, you know, how many followers do you have? YouTubing? Yes. That will elevate me in the cool factor in my household. I think

Alison Cebulla 2:55
maybe Oh, good. See that you're well on your way to becoming a party coach. Um, yeah. Second item is that we are doing a book club. The first weekend in April we make that date is tentative. So don't get so set on the date. We're going to we're going to talk about that. But, but just we have that link in the show notes. We're going to discuss what my bones know. The book that we've been reading by Stephanie foods, so check that out in the show notes book club.

Anne Sherry 3:24
Reading, devouring, right? Yes, we It wasn't just sipping it was a devour for me.

Alison Cebulla 3:33
And it's been a devour for everyone else. My boyfriend devoured it as devouring yet. Yes. My friend Laura, who was our guest about the parenting and COVID episode, she devoured it. And she's you know, I'm just loving hearing everyone's commentary. So we're doing a book club where we can discuss super excited for that. Yeah. So, um, and what have you been? What have you been watching or reading?

Anne Sherry 3:57
What I have been? Well, August and I almost done with the entire series of Modern Family. That's one of his favorite shows. Anyways, so that's an ongoing thing. But what I discovered last night on HBO by Jay The Duplass brothers. I don't even know if I'm saying it right. But they are masters at sort of storytelling. It's called somebody somewhere. It's set in the comedian, set in Nebraska, Kansas or something. So it's just every anywhere USA kind of is so good. It's family drama. It's she has a her sister died and she had come back to help and he they just do an amazing job of looking at family dynamics as they are and there's like this. She's reconnecting with people from high school is so good. So I've been three episodes.

Alison Cebulla 4:51
Is that like, is that like a soap opera feel? No, it's it goes deeper.

Anne Sherry 4:57
Okay. No, it is I highly, highly recommend it is it's kind of like because we have all these, to me, projections onto rural America. And it's she's going back to her hometown, and it's just complicated and people are real. And there's community, and it's rough and there's trauma. It's all the things so, and it's funny, she's hilarious. The people in it are hilarious. She's a comedian, singer. A lot of the actors are comedians in it, so highly recommend somebody somewhere.

Alison Cebulla 5:27
Okay. And I'm, I'm reading I just finished an amazing, amazing audio book called girlhood. And this book made a splash last summer and it was covered in in every Literary Review magazine and I downloaded it back then and and then I just didn't want to touch it. I just did not want to touch it because I knew it was going to be hard. It's about how girls are raised. And how coming of age is so sexualized for girls were really raised to be sex objects. And her book is so good. I can't believe I was worried about reading it because it's we're in good hands. Like she keeps us in good hands like with her writing, dude. I mean, it's not I think I thought that it was going to be to, to trauma to re traumatizing or two all over the place or like not safe feeling, but it's very safe feeling. We feel safe with her and her name is Melissa fee bows. And then because I was like, Wait, this writing is otherworldly. She's a professor at University of Iowa, which is like the best writing school in the world. Yeah, yeah. So she's just amazing that her story is that she worked as a professional dominatrix for a number of years. And she

Anne Sherry 6:38
70s career for me? Yes.

Alison Cebulla 6:44
But I listened to the audiobook. So I wish I had more quotes and I couldn't find too many. But she says this is a quote. The more I think about it, the more amazed I am that anyone realistically expects young women to easily say no to anything. Least of all the sexual desires of men. If I struggled to say no to a lunch invitation a work request any number of less fraught and treaties when I have some pressing personal reason. How can a teenager be expected to stop a man's hands as it reaches under her clothes? Some do of course, which seems miraculous

Anne Sherry 7:17
that is amazing. And I feel so seen.

Alison Cebulla 7:20
I know. by Melissa feet boss.

Anne Sherry 7:25
Love it. Okay, I mean, I'm a little between books. I like kind of reading little bits and pieces actually of all the Kindle books I've started so anyways, yeah, so I'm gonna go devour that one. Thank you. As always.

Alison Cebulla 7:39
So now it's time for our struggle party. I'm so and what was your struggle party this week?

Anne Sherry 7:52
Oh, I wish it was just a little tiny, mundane thing about clogging up a toilet or something. But it's a little bigger. It's from what my bones No, which is just rocking my world. It really put me I mean, it was such a wild ride. It put me into this place of like, my critics started running my show. I was like, I'm a shitty therapist. I got the wrong training. It's all fucked up. What have I been doing? I've been a bad client. I'm a fake, a phony. I mean, I went to all the places. And then because I finished the book, like it felt like I had this like, oh, like let's try grace. Grace. And I really understood I was really rock. Keep saying rocked my world because it is but it allowed me to actually really claim probably complex. My take the probably out Complex PTSD. Yeah, like, the way I was raised. Of course, it looks like this. You know, of course, it's hard to have real relationships. Of course, it's hard to show up. Like there was so much permission in that book. So we went I got to a place of grace. So it was struggle, struggle, struggle, critic, critic, critic, and then we went to grace. And I and it was just like, it's like my critics turned into these sweet encouragers I'm doing fine. Keep going. It's okay. You got this. Oh, tears like, Oh, I'm gonna sing the tearsa Sing with the fears. But I have I've been leaking this week. I just leak. You know, anytime I start saying it was hard. It was hard. But the other piece too. I've been reaching out more. Like I reached out to you. You reached out to me

Alison Cebulla 9:43
that was a really beautiful part of her book was like how intentional she became about nurturing her relationships. So

Anne Sherry 9:51
yeah, and I reached out to my cousin who listens to this podcast. Hi, Tracy. Like, and I've scheduled a weekend. I'm like, Tracy, I need fam lay any family, I don't have family. I don't do family. So we have a weekend. We're going up there and have a good day. And then the other side of my family and just learned a little bit more got found a Facebook page with there's lots of information on like pictures and learned up like deep poverty that my mom's side of the family came from probably my father's side too. So I don't know, to grow the

Alison Cebulla 10:22
passion. Yeah, we want to we want to end the our struggle party shares with the tools, the tools that you use to get through your struggle party this week.

Anne Sherry 10:31
encouragement, like self encouragement, like it's, it's truly I was swimming, and I go swimming and still struggling. And but I like at the end of my 2000s swimming. I mean, I said out loud to myself, I'm proud of you. Good job. Look at you come into the pool in the middle of the day. Okay, so those kinds of so it really is this situation. I know. And I know that's like, I don't know, somehow it feels revelatory, in the face of why it's so hard and permission that I'm probably going to start riding my bike too fast down the hill, and like be really like overreach out, and it's going to freak my system out and I'm going to disappear. And it's like, cool. So disappear for a while, you know, so, okay, what's your dissociatives? You know, shields up? It's okay. Like, I love Star Trek. I loved when they said that shields up. Like, I get that it's so safe shields up. enemy approaching. That's fine. I don't know. Yeah. So that's it, I feel and feeling. And it's a struggle. And, on that note, Alison, let's your struggle party was invited.

Alison Cebulla 11:43
All of us. Everyone's invited to my struggle party and mine is kind of the same thing. That book has really opened up a lot of wounds. I watched or listened to her interview with, with her therapist. She did like a live Instagram this week. And I listened to it with my mom. And at the end of listening to with my mom, some stuff came up for me where I was like, I felt like it was like hard for us to connect about it. We both love Dr. Homme. My mom watched the I hosted an event a couple years ago with or I helped produce an event that he was a guest on. And so we both are familiar with his work, Dr. Jacob homme and so I wanted to watch this thing with her. But then at the end, it felt like maybe it just wasn't the right time. But I got really triggered, I like went to my darkest place of like she never, you know which this isn't true. You know what I mean? She never has shown up for me, and she doesn't understand relational health. And that's just one story. But instead of pushing that story away, or rationalizing it, or whatever I the tool that I used was just sticking with the feeling and feeling it. And that was awesome, because it just helped bring out grief. We all have grief that's in there. Of course, there were moments that my mom wasn't there for me. And there's real grief. And once I can feel that grief, it can stop showing up in my life in weird ways, like anger or keeping people at a distance. And so another tool that I used was reaching out to people you I texted you, I just said I'm feeling really wrong. I'm having some grief come up. I called my boyfriend I you know, that's like a thing to have, like wanting to keep my romantic partners at a distance and just process something by myself. So that was like, No, I would like to invite him into the struggle party to hold the space with me. So yes, that's something I've been doing more often. That's really working. So that's my, that's my party this week. And how I got through it.

Anne Sherry 13:42
Yay. I love that you caught those. Never and always do you know trances people lives do, Steve Oh, I don't know it. I think it's I think it's an 80s 90s therapy book. But I that was a one thing I remember from that. If you hear yourself saying never and always you're in a trance. Yes. Like, nice. Nice. So yes, dissociation?

Alison Cebulla 14:04
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Thank you for that tool. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. So now, our interview with Evan I did love that. He says, you know, he's just starting therapy. And you know, we love interviewing lots of different people who are on different parts of their journeys. Like, I feel like we interview a lot of therapists who have already done a lot of work and it was really refreshing to talk to Evan and see where he was at, at his on his journey and some different insights that he was having and the healing power of dance and electronic music and thinking and setting intentions in your life. And you know, his his voice is kind of coming up in my ear a lot in terms of Well, what do you want to get out of this experience? Like I love I love that.

Anne Sherry 14:57
Yes, yes. I also love that he He asked, like, I think even before we started what's bringing you joy? And I was like, You're not one fucking thing. Nothing. Nothing. I was eating a tangerine. I was like, well, I'll just go super Buddhist here and be like, this tangerine is bringing me joy. And it was and that had to be enough. But I was like, wow, that's a question I might want to engage in a little bit more.

Alison Cebulla 15:24
I know it does is good for us to think what we could do in our lives to bring more joy in. Thank you, Evan. Yes, yeah. Yeah. And so one other thing I wanted to say that I was, has been kind of sitting with me is that in the interview, you'll you'll hear Evan say, I grew up in a really loving home. And we are, we love hearing that. And I would also say that for myself, I would absolutely say I grew up in a loving home. My parents wanted me they planned for me. They showed me love. Very often, they said they love me very often. And just for our all of our listeners, because we know we have just a diverse, wider range of listeners is that you can come from a loving home and still have trauma. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. There could be times when your parents didn't say that they needed to say when something hard happened. Brene Brown has a great example of this in one of her books, where she talks about not making the cheerleading team, and her parents didn't know what to say. So they just didn't say anything and how much that hurt her. So even though it's like, would she say she came from a loving home? Yes. But were her parents there when they when she needed them? No. I have that exact same

Anne Sherry 16:38
experience. Do? Yes. And second grade you were trying out for mighty mites, cheerleaders, and I wanted it it's so bad. Bad badly. Yeah, what the where it is? Yeah, and I just swallowed that. Shut up. I

Alison Cebulla 16:52
waited for that. They didn't help you understand that. To be fair, I was

Anne Sherry 16:57
kind of done with them at three. I wasn't coming. I was pretty done. So

Alison Cebulla 17:03
anyway, but you would not I mean, for you. Like in terms of my I came from a loving home spectrum. Like if we're gonna put on a spectrum years, we're way on the not loving side.

Anne Sherry 17:14
Mine was dissociated, covered up. I mean, they were there I and I've said this many times, they call it the transactional childhood. You got the things right. So that's a form of love. I mean, they got me to practice that was food. But it's just, you know, that totally.

Alison Cebulla 17:32
Well, yeah. And our guests from last week, Matt, Aline helped us understand that, that on the other end of the spectrum was too nice, too loving, too clingy too much taking care of their needs. So your parents could say, Yeah, I love you. I appreciate you. I want you here. Also, though, I'm not okay. My I haven't haven't spent time developing the nurturance tools to regulate my own nervous system. And so as a child, you're stuck regulating your parents nurture the nervous system for them. That's right. That's that's another forum where you can say, Well, I grew up and my parents loved me. But you without realizing that you're having to do all the emotional labor in the family as a child. Yep. Yeah. There's more to trauma that we can get from. Yeah, more

Anne Sherry 18:17
of you have it, then not

Alison Cebulla 18:21
our list, I feel that our listeners know that I do feel our listeners know that. I know that our classic book, or classic books that just I mean, if you've been listening to our podcast, and you haven't bought this book yet, come on, people. We need to do a book club on this book running on empty, running empty by running on web

Anne Sherry 18:40
to know more. Yeah. Which puts it into the relationship category. Yeah. Let's do that. That will be our second book, because that is what we're doing here. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 18:52
I'm running on empty no more, we'll put it in the show notes. But this is a great segue to era interview. Because my rave years and my party years were definitely definitely for me a little bit about running on empty, I had that energy. And I love what everyone's doing his work around. How can we transform that so that you can still have this fun life that you love? Go out there and go do the dancing, go do the hanging out with the friends which is so healthy and good. But how can you do that with the intention to connect and to show up and be present and do this from a place of joy instead of getting on empty love writing love that

Anne Sherry 19:31
bond and not not checking out with substances? I mean, he did talk a lot about you know, this, being sober with this. Yeah, so I am so longing for that. And if I lean into it, I have terrified parts that show up and I don't know what that is, you know,

Alison Cebulla 19:52
but it's about that. Yeah. Oh,

Anne Sherry 19:55
yeah, me too. Stay tuned. Everybody, same unfolding on this Broadcast. The therapy goes on the healing goes on. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 20:13
We're super excited to be here with Evan Cudworth today and welcome, Evan. Welcome. Great. And so I'm just gonna read Evans bio, and then we're gonna jump in and I'm just super excited to talk about rave therapy, Dad's therapy party therapy, vibe, curating which I love that phrase, short term sobriety, long term sobriety, all these great, great topics, so as a former Raver, and like someone who would actually just love to go to a rave. You know, now we're like two years in the pandemic. I'm like, God, I'd love a good rave just so I've been wanting to do this topic for a while. So thank you. So Evan Paul Cudworth is a musician who believes that a great party is a tribal event a portal to human connection, we can only achieve together as a group. But after spending practically every weekend of the last 15 years at a bar concert festival or nightclubs haven't experienced the extreme highs and lows that alcohol and drugs contributed to our social scene, and he's now on a mission to inspire people to look closer at why we really party and teach anyone how to experience and enjoy short term sobriety which is one to three months and regain their natural confidence while connecting with that anxiety. In this space of clarity, you can set clear intentions for why they party is it for escape, is it to find a lever? Is it network for your career? Oh my God, these are questions I've never even thought of Evans dam. And inside these intentions are the healthy habits and freedom to then sustainably reintegrate alcohol and substances in a way that leaves you and your social circle feeling fulfilled and connected. And we will put links to his website, his Instagram, his Tik Tok all these things on the show notes. So be sure to check that out. Because you really will want to follow Evan on Tiktok and Instagram. I love his content. Man, I'm

Anne Sherry 22:07
so much fun this morning. Like I was like, I want to do that.

Alison Cebulla 22:12
I'm not moving enough. What

Evan Cudworth 22:15
do you say that like the content game? Like anything else, you know, I've been for a year and a half have been just like trying to break through figure out what is my authentic voice? How do I make content? I remember when I moved to LA five years ago, I have this first little journal that I like, I wouldn't tell anyone I was like, I want to like make content and be an influencer. And I failed at it for four years. And finally, in the past three weeks, you're literally seeing stuff finally connecting with people in a way. And maybe this will be a good intro to what we're talking about next Friday. And I actually had my first like in live party coaching gig where I took people to a nightclub in Los Angeles. That if they wanted to be sober, I was like, come with me as a party coach. And that was it was a huge party that was lines wrapping around as I'm walking to line I hear party coach party coach Turner recognizing, recognizing me from Tik Tok. And these people are like, I went down the line. I was like, What's your intention for tonight and people recognize me from Tik Tok, and I'm getting like emotional. That's what I've watched. I've wanted to connect to people on this level, and I couldn't figure out how to do it and really grateful that for just all the mentors and people I've had along the way, but here we are, and I get to talk with you. And I'm so well we're

Alison Cebulla 23:33
gonna dig into we're gonna ask you about your childhood, which is what we always put everyone on the spot to start with, um, but I kind of want to say first, so you and I met at a rooftop party in 2015 in Williamsburg, I think, in New York, and you definitely were curating the whole vibe. You were you were the coolest thing happening at that party. And I was like, We got to hang out with that guy. And we did. And it was so fun. Actually, one of my favorite moments from that night because we went back to your apartment, and it was so fun. We were like dancing was when our mutual friend Will and I know he would think that the story is funny. So I'm going to share it. Yeah. You had this great playlist going you and will kept trying to insert these tracks. Do you remember this? Yeah. And you were like, no, no, no, no, this isn't the vibe. This isn't the vibe. And it took him like several tracks to be like, Oh, he goes they need to be chill. Yeah. He was trying to like ramp the vibe up and you're like, No, this is chill vibes only and, like, I just, I'll never forget that moment. You know, it's like the vibe has to be right.

Evan Cudworth 24:39
There's places for and if you build to that, like that I put I think he was trying to put on like, we were doing even like tropical house but he wanted he was like I want to like begun hip hop. So it was like we did like that's not gonna fit into sort of what we're doing right now.

Alison Cebulla 24:54
Yeah, it was just like, you can't change the vibe that fast. Yeah, you and then and then there's kind of also this thing where you have to feel what the vibe is, like, you know what I mean? Like, if you put on a track, that's, that's too different than what you were just experienced. This is why DJs are amazing, you know, it's like you have to what's, what's the vibe of the group here. So I'll really never forget that moment that you're really kind of actually, even in 2015, were teaching me how to buy curate.

Anne Sherry 25:24
And it sounds kind of kind kind to will, I don't know, like, like, rather than well get the fuck out of here. It was so kind. I guess. And I really appreciate that

Evan Cudworth 25:36
I have this video of well, my memory for that day of will on my phone on that rooftop there was about remember, there was like a slip and slide back. And Will is like take a video of me. And I saw this bouncy house. And at the end, he's so happy he like gets all the way down, he looks up, he'd like a puppy dog, you guys made it

Alison Cebulla 26:03
good times. I love that so much. Um, and so I've been I saw you on your journey to move to move to LA. And I think the reason why I'm so stoked for you to to have found this party coach thing is because especially for selfish reasons, because the last two years have been so hard and none of us have gotten to party, whatever that means to us. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. And it's really what I need, I need to feel like I can let loose and just dance or just be a kind of out of my mind or like find joy or just, you know, be messy. All these things that I haven't been able to experience that I think really attracted me to the dance music scene in the first place. Because it's a place to let loose. It's a place to wear fun costumes, it's a place to be in your body. So anyway, it's like the the thing that you're bringing to people's feeds. And now people are recognizing you, which is great is like yeah, we do want that joy. We do want to feel like we're partying in our lives, even if it's just partying but like a kind of more, you know, not going to a nightclub, but I want to feel like my life has has joy in it. So thank you for your work your good service to humanity.

Anne Sherry 27:20
Play Play is just essential. We forgot, like you watch wild animals like and that's how they learned to actually live and survive is play. And we just stopped playing at some point or Yeah, so but I want you to spill it on your childhood child. Therapist. Yeah, we'll do this kindly.

Alison Cebulla 27:46
Yes. Have you seen spare parts? Yes. The emotional environment of your childhood, you know, who was home with you or not home? How was that? Yeah, tell us

Evan Cudworth 27:54
when you're cashing in a really great time I've reentered therapy, my third, like therapy big therapy session right now, like four or five weeks in right now. And I've been hacking this now, which has been really amazing. But first experience in therapy was like when I got to college, when I came out of the closet, and I was moving into that. So this connects to all of that. So to back up. I had, in my mind, a fantastic childhood, I felt supported. My parents were both their very presence. I felt loved. I really have genuinely amazing memories from my childhood. While that was I grew up in Midwestern prairies of Illinois, public school, et cetera, et cetera. But what started to happen by about like fifth or sixth grade, was Yeah, everyone else around me was starting to be like, oh, like, girls, like let's get let's go find girls and let's start to be interested in those things. And that wasn't happening for me. And I was starting to feel different. I actually remember prettier I think it was like sixth grade. We rode our bikes to Best Buy, because they could sell basically like, it was like softcore porn but they could sell it to like underage kid. And like we bought this these DVDs. I think it was like very early, but it was called like Survivor Amazon and it was literally just topless women with dildos like hitting like trees. And they were like it was supposed to be the sexy thing I remember my friends were like this is so cool. We're watching it like on my ex box. And I've just remember sitting there and be like, Oh no, like something's really wrong I just and and it's but in those moments and then what started to happen was and I've only lately been able to fully admit this but you know the connection that I wanted you know, was starting to fall in love with my best friends and love with men around me and but didn't know how to put it. A lot of denial, a lot of extreme sides of masculinity. I was a cellist. And so I had this like, musical side of me that was kind of flamboyant and musical. But I also played soccer, and like really had these kinds of things. So when I talk about, like trauma, essentially, from my early years, I don't, I can't really remember or think too much about that. But as it's been explained to me, like trauma can be those experiences that you didn't have. And so for me, when everyone had a first kiss, when everyone had that connection, whenever I had those types of things, that really never happened for me, and I would even try to date girls, but they could, like, you know, there was kind of that thing in the middle. And I was not able to be honest. And so I just have a lot of memories of those early memories of feeling like not in the same room as people are feeling disconnected and not feeling like I could have what everyone else have or wanted, and that that was never going to be possible for me.

Anne Sherry 31:03
Wow, when when what was your what age group? Are you like? Alice?

Evan Cudworth 31:07
I'm 35

Unknown Speaker 31:08
Yeah, same. Okay. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 31:10
So, because I know, I'm 54 but that just, you just didn't there was no talk of that. Like at my 30 year high school reunion. We finally found out who was gay. Yeah, like, and it was like, oh, you know, but we just it just wasn't so was there.

Evan Cudworth 31:33
Just starting? Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, it was starting to enter mainstream stuff. I remember, like my first exposure to stuff being rent, like listening to rent. The musical was really good for me. Yeah, physical. And that was like I, you know, had done this. I actually, like, like an EP first episode of Glee. I literally was on a soccer team, and decided I was gonna leave to do the musical. And I was gonna, like, go over and do that. And I joined show choir and like, use it. And musicals were a big part of feeling accepted. And my first time that I truly felt like I was a part of something that like, that was my show choir. And like, we had all the beautiful the toxic traditions that High School show choirs have, which are, you get really honest and earnest about those kinds of things. And now actually, I'm thinking back in that my senior year show choir out of the 912 guys that were there, I think eight of us have all come out of the closet.

Alison Cebulla 32:32
I guess I'm curious in my in my I wasn't also in choir in high school. And it felt like a lot of the friends that I had from choir did come out in high school fairly early to freshman and sophomore year. So, but this is California, and you grew up in the Midwest, do you think that played a role? Or like what was the cultural emotional environment that, you know, made it feel either it sounds like it wasn't quite safe to come out in high school is right.

Evan Cudworth 32:59
Yeah. And questions of safety. I think. Again, I felt usually pretty safe. But okay, I was also very involved in the church. So this is the other thing. So I grew up in Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, which is a very stand up, sit down very straight, you know, like, this is what it is, and sort of put it there. I was involved in the youth group there, but could sort of feel that was, hey, maybe not a play. So I had moved over to actually a more Evan Jellicle church that had a praise, but I played cello. So I played in the praise band. And that was like, one of the great joys of my middle school in high school was was actually in a kind of musician. But I remember about sophomore year, I believe we would do this retreat. And it was like over New Years, talk a lot of first party and feeling connection. I like those, like seeing those pray songs, and I still get chills

Unknown Speaker 33:52
thinking about it. Good music.

Evan Cudworth 33:56
At midnight on New Year's like singing, I remember crying and feeling that sense of connection with people around me, because that was a party for us. Right? That's what

Alison Cebulla 34:06
sounds like party vibes to me. Yeah,

Evan Cudworth 34:08
that's what it was right? I remember, they brought in a speaker to talk about this guy whose brother had come out as gay, and how this guy had tried to reach him, but he couldn't. So we cut this guy out of his life. And that was the right thing to do as a Christian. And I remember talking to my youth leader who was like running this who's an ex marine guy really, like hardcore, and I can't even remember exactly what I said, by essentially, you know, I was like, I'm having these feelings. Like, I don't really know. He's like, Don't worry, like, we're gonna like, you'll be fine. We'll take care of this. Slowly, my leadership positions stripped away, everything gets sort of like ostracized, basically pulled away from a lot of that kind of stuff. So never really brought it up again. But like, it was really clear that this was not a place to talk about that. At the same time, like my family was barely progress. I serve. I think that like, there would not have been an issue if I would have done it. But you know, there's just, it was at that really unique time and like those late 90s early or this would be early 2000s. Yeah. Where, you know, like, yeah, we got Willard grace on TV, and there's, you know, like that stuff is starting to happen. But I was not really interested in even in that culture. I was like, Oh, I like bros who play football who won't talk to me, right? Like, that was fine. Like, all I understood about it.

Alison Cebulla 35:32
Interesting. But

Evan Cudworth 35:33
yeah, but but that up against like, these places that were giving me a lot of community, my church, and my, like, sort of friend groups and things like that, like I knew it was either going to make those people uncomfortable. I was getting signals that like, hey, this isn't quite right yet.

Alison Cebulla 35:49
Okay. Okay. Interesting. So there's some different levels of feeling safe or not. Okay. I mean, sharing that with me. Yeah, that's

Anne Sherry 35:58
sort of like there's a kid who's my kids in fourth grade. And I'm not saying this is every school, but there's a trans kid like last third grade, they weren't this person in fourth grade. They're this person. Not even a speedboat. Nothing.

Alison Cebulla 36:12
Yeah. Are you a hippie town? I get it. I'm

Anne Sherry 36:17
not saying it's everywhere.

Alison Cebulla 36:18
No, no, I just say I know. I know. We just but for our listeners, for our listeners, I

Anne Sherry 36:24
am in Asheville, North Carolina, Asheville, North Carolina.

Alison Cebulla 36:27
I like some of the most progressive people in the country flocked to Asheville, because I want to be around like minded people, which I think is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So um, so I mean, so it was, it was college for you before you. You felt like where did you go, where to go to college.

Evan Cudworth 36:47
And this is where Anna Yeah, came together. So I went to the University of Chicago, which was, I was definitely I still identify as an intellectual masochist. I was like, I would love to, you know, torture my mind with as much self awareness philosophy. And, you know, almost like Joseph Campbell, like archetypal myths is possible. And in Chicago was the most it was known as the place where the fun comes to die. Literally the place where that was the unofficial motto, because people would go there and study so hard that they had no time for anything else. And I was like, that's when I was, you know, I was like, I want to go, I can become a, like a monk of this. Of course, as fate would have it, you know, I get there and with I never, I didn't really I drank a couple times in high school, and we can talk about maybe that but, you know, I remember the first night of being in school and like, I'm like, sitting in my room reading and the RA comes No, like, you know, it's okay to go out and like, party. And I was like, I don't know, like, I just don't know. Ra literally made me go out.

Alison Cebulla 37:57
That's amazing.

Unknown Speaker 37:58
He was your first party coach. All right, yeah. Yay.

Evan Cudworth 38:04
All of these things come together. In that, you know, I started I went played some soccer. And so we're making some sort of friends there. But I ended up starting to go into this. It was kind of a soccer fraternity. But finding people there that taught me like, you know, here's beer and like, here's how to have fun and actually really felt accepted and like my room and but my roommate was also a person that sweet. He was from Maryland. He was an Opus Dei Catholic, but who loved a party. It was also a theater guy, and just had a lot of sort of these similar ideas guy was a big thing as well. So

Anne Sherry 38:42
I thought you said feeder, I'm like, What's a theater? Yeah.

Evan Cudworth 38:47
But a lot of these things all started to come together. And you know, they asked me to pledge a fraternity. I remember telling my parents like, what, like, you want to pledge a fraternity?

Alison Cebulla 38:56
Were you like, choir? I'm just I guess I'm trying to think of choir guys that I went to high school with or maybe not the frat bro tight,

Evan Cudworth 39:02
right. Okay, so I was an extrovert, but I wasn't like a party, frat guy. I don't think people would have thought.

Alison Cebulla 39:09
Right, right.

Evan Cudworth 39:11
And, yeah, in that, you know, the whole pledging thing. You know, I'm surprised now, more books have been written about, like hazing and pledging and just what that rite of passage as as a human and as a man, like, I'm so grateful for that experience. Because, like in that process, you know, there's a whole bunch of psychological stuff they do to you, but it's all about like, the group your pledge class is like you become one entity, right? And it's important that you share you talk about like your you have to memorize your, your pledge brothers, mothers and their phone numbers, and like, get to know all of these things about these people that you don't really do in other ways, right? And through that, like authenticity is a big part of that and they tried to break then they break you down. You have to learn these songs and alphabet and all those kinds of things. And I was playing Romeo in Romeo and Juliet, taking these classes, I was already in over my head because a lot of these people were private schools from the East Coast that come from this school, right? And why they were doing all these push ups in the basement. And I, a couple weeks ago had like, hooked up with that roommates friend who had come to visit him, like drunkenly and connected in a way that I was like, Yeah, this is it like 100% I know I'm gay. I'm felt that connection and that first kiss or whatever, like, that's what it felt like. And as I just like, got into therapy a week or two before and just something came out we would do this day afterwards. It was weird. Like Lord of the Flies. We had a stapler that was like our college that we'd pass along. And like that was what you could speak with. And I was like, I need the stapler. And so I took the stapler. And in this little room, like we're all like, like, in our underwear, like crying after having done all these push ups. I was like, guys, like, I just had to tell you like, I'm gay. And like if I get kicked out because of it, like, that's what it is. But like, I trust you all. I like I just have to say this. And like everyone's goes cry and like hugging. And

Anne Sherry 41:08
yeah. Toxic masculinity, you have to be like it external. Because what I'm hearing internally when they're just amongst themselves, there's a lot of camaraderie.

Unknown Speaker 41:18
I can that come out of the closet, please? Yes. Jesus Christ. And so

Evan Cudworth 41:27
this is this is the future, but where ultimately, I think, you know, I will get to the party Kochi and my issues with addiction that I think are based out of this later. Yeah. So with that acceptance, they actually had to like talk to the fraternity and they actually had to have a vote whether they would still like I would be the first openly gay brother to come.

Alison Cebulla 41:48
Still kind of waiting. That's okay.

Evan Cudworth 41:51
Yeah, I don't know. I don't care what whatever what I was, passes, right, I get through this, right. But in that I found then I was like, became a social chair became the person that was throwing the parties. Not only could I curate a vibe that the dudes liked, but I knew how to throw parties, the girls love to come to as well as

Alison Cebulla 42:17
Disney Disney.

Evan Cudworth 42:22
My room became known as club seven, because I would go from 7pm to seven in the morning, because I would show these parties that everyone felt accepted, the boys can come in and sing, like, I just want to be king. And the girls can say a whole new world. And we could actually like, like, detoxify these frat parties that were only you know, like, that was really early club vibes. So But out of that, I just felt like accepted. These brothers had my backs and everything to last night, I had dinner with somebody who was an effort to steal like one of my best friends to these days this day, right? Yeah. And, but in that, the shadow, the shadow that like I, I was at my best when I was pleasing everybody curating a vibe that made everybody else around me comfortable and excited and happy, but was still denying that intimacy or like what I could quietly in a room by myself experienced one on one with another human. I was like, Oh, I can fill that hole with every like every other type of connection and become the extrovert become the party or become the cube curator. And do all these things make other like the number of people that are like, Hey, we met at one of your parties, and now we're married, like, like, there's a whole bunch of those stories that I have. But that side of things was not clicking for me. And what I'm finally unpacking now at 35 is still some of those, you know, habits and sort of anti traumas of, you know, like be feeling so connected and feeling really genuinely happy in a lot of ways. But delaying or denying myself the still that one on one more intimate connection that I might have been crazy.

Anne Sherry 44:18
That's right. Yeah. I'm just gonna let you know like I'm 54 and I'm a therapist and I'm still unpacking shit so so we've got like, you know, this sorta we were just speaking with somebody around this like, do you know this term of attachment like being Yeah, so like, I'm hearing something about like, some way you're meeting everyone's needs maybe hoping that they're going to meet your need or but if it's not happening and are you is this where sort of substances maybe took hold or like it's hard to tolerate not getting a need bed or being seen? It's like little

Alison Cebulla 44:57
Yeah, and what yeah, what me I was curious. Dude, that was great and like, what needs weren't being met, but you kind of understand now.

Evan Cudworth 45:05
Yeah. And again, I'm still starting to understand some of those right now.

Anne Sherry 45:13
And I will say, and let me just put this out there because we do get kind of intimate on here. And even finding after these broadcasts, like, there's some shame hanging over, so I just go slow, and like, whatever you want to share, or don't want to share, but just, it's, it's fun to talk about this stuff, but it's going out to the world too.

Alison Cebulla 45:33
So let me let me let me share like for my life, just because I relate to oven so much, I also hosted a lot of parties. I had an apartment, my freshman year on Call of college at my house was the party house. And I've shared in past episodes, that it's always been easier for me to form more superficial or, or looser connections with lots of people than it has been for those closer ones with just a couple people. And so part of my healing journey was like, how come I don't let people in? And why it is that hard. Yeah, and but then, okay, but then, on the lighter side, the science of introversion and extraversion that I've read about in a book about the science of personality, is that as a because I'm also an extrovert is that we perceive sensory input less than introverts. So there's also this justice personality part to where, like going to EDC Vegas where there's like 10 stages of music, bass, electric lights, you know, data that it was like, felt perfect to me.

Evan Cudworth 46:51
When you said that just goes on my neck go up. i You just got me so excited. Like that, like just thinking about that is like, I want that right? So let's let's get into because this, first of all segues or share that I want to hear actually, I want to hear before we dive in what like these like with a one on one relationships and healing that side for you? What, like, how did you get those reps in? And literally, what do you do now to like, connect in that way? Because I'm doing I'm doing a lot of that work. But I'm always looking for other ways to practice that and become better at it.

Alison Cebulla 47:35
I don't know the answer, but you have a call

Unknown Speaker 47:39
in line any callers can.

Anne Sherry 47:43
So I'm also probably I'm extroverted. Very self reliant. I, I was talking about how we tell the weather after a weather system has come through. So I'm the weather man or the weather woman afterwards, here, here, here were all the storms last week, you know. So for me, it is what I have done is just really a small group of people do it. Just find your safe people. There's a group of women that I've met with for 14 years that I call the goddess group for the first seven years. I hated going to our weekends, like every weekend, and I named the parts that were coming up for me, I hate this, we get vulnerable. What do you want for me? I have to take care of you. Like I was able to speak to all those voices that were like, Oh, we're gonna hug and people are gonna cry, and I might cry, and then you're gonna see me cry, and then that's terrible. And so my husband would say he would just listen to me. I'm like, god dammit, like, Sue wants to meet two nights. What is wrong with them? Is it one night enough one night of intimacy enough? And I would come back like, Oh, they're the best. Yeah. So for me it is knowing those parts of you exist and just be friend them. Let them have a voice. I'm so curious. And still, to this day, it feels like there's just this echo in general of like, oh, I felt like for the last month, I feel like I've kind of been in a fog and I'm like, I think I'm in a fog and I keep trying to get out of it. And I'm like, I think I'm in a fog. You know, I think I've just heard but I still go you know, I'm going to the

Evan Cudworth 49:24
laughter you'll have to fly out here and we're gonna go to a rave Allison.

Anne Sherry 49:30
This was my fucking idea on the podcast that's coming out on Tuesday. I had an idea because I'm a hero. I have I had a he's deceased now and we've spoken about him my older brother John who was off the charts. Crazy mental illness, blah blah blah. Um, but he used to go to dead shows and he used to party and I was like that is can happen in my life. I did the dead for a little bit but I lock it I keep locking it down locking it down and I was like I'm so sick of being the Goodwyn and the hero and I was like I need a camp where I can go get soup, I need to go get fucked up. I need to be sober. And just party like a rock star for two weeks and then I can come back into my life you know, so So, okay, you're hired

Evan Cudworth 50:18
amazing ideas for you. So, especially everywhere but Southern California.

Unknown Speaker 50:22
This was literally my goal. I

Anne Sherry 50:24
was trying to start it with Kevin anonymous. I was like Kevin anonymous, we must start this

Evan Cudworth 50:30
four day desert festivals and they do here that are essentially mini burning man's where it's like, there's no rules. We can't go out to the desert. There's like enough to do but there's also solid like, you can be very solitary and stuff like that. And this summer, it's like all the walls like doors are breaking loose. It's there's so much cool stuff so well. Okay, I'm gonna do some research. And I will come back to you with some lists and times and let's make this happen.

Alison Cebulla 50:53
Oh my god, I perfect. I love this. Okay, so for my kid. He'll be fine. Okay. Um, so I went through this thing where I realized that I had a problem with one on one intimate intimacy, especially romantic relationships. And I was like, I'm gonna read I have a coach mindset like you have ended. I worked as a coach for a few years. I'm gonna read every relationship book ever written? Well, guess what? There's a lot of bad relationship books out there. But it was a really fun exercise. Even the worst books had somewhere in there. Tucked away was one nugget of truth. I think I read one, the worst one. It was like this woman who hosts a reality show about women who want to marry really wealthy men. What's the what is the call?

Evan Cudworth 51:40
It's a Millionaire Matchmaker,

Alison Cebulla 51:42
Millionaire Matchmaker. Yeah, I read her book. Yeah. There were a couple of nuggets in there. There were it was mostly toxic. But it was such an interesting thing. I was like, I'm just gonna read all the books. And the ones that I got the most out of were attached by Amir Levine. That one is so good. In fact, when I first started dating my current partner, we went through that book together. And then there were a couple others I think you've read these ones, right and the wired four series wired for love wired for I bought the books. Oh, you got you bought the book, fire and flipper?

Unknown Speaker 52:18
Yeah, one of

Alison Cebulla 52:19
my biggest insights from the wired series by Stan topkin. Was that he? Seriously I don't know why this didn't occur to me before. Because people taught like, for example, the polyamorous community knows all about this. But your brain gets really high when you first start dating someone because it wants to reproduce. That's why your body is going into overdrive because it wants to reproduce and keep your species alive. And so you've got all these chemicals of being alive that are so amazing and makes you high, but they wear off. And so I always think like, Who do you want to be with when the drugs wear off when your brain drugs wear off. And every time that my partner and I have like a rough patch or a hard day, I'm always like, Man, I wish those drugs were here to like, make me high, and they're just gone. And I have to just trudge through this. So anyway, those are just a couple pieces of my journey.

Evan Cudworth 53:10
Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing both of you. And I think tying this back in, and something you said and what Tyson was something we haven't talked about. And, and also one of the reasons I was at that lowest point in my life, and that was actually my mother. So my mother passed had passed away in 2013. After an eight year cancer diagnosis ovarian and had been like a beat it back, and then it would come back and there was a lot of back and forth and hospitals. And that's that, like all on the way and it's just an amazing woman, gardener teacher, great host and party hosts. So but what what what she would said is, there was this part of her life that I did not know about until she went into hospice and sort of right in the last couple months, which is that before she met my dad and before me, she had followed the dead around for a couple years when she was like 19 She never you never knew no.

Anne Sherry 54:19
There was no point here would that have been when that would

Evan Cudworth 54:22
have been? Fleet 70s Yeah. Okay, like 79 So yeah. And I don't I don't know how comfortable I am sharing parts of that story with with you but there had been a guy there had been just some toxic really bad stuff that had happened. And she had been ashamed of that and and are wanting to protect me from certain things and express like, Hey, I didn't like the person I was now was not the person I was during then. And she's like Were you Are you mad at me for not telling you that I was like no. Like I actually really I kind of prefer though I had this relationship and I was able to have this. I know who you were through my childhood and who I am right now. And I'm glad you're telling me now and I hold no, anything about that. But it was right at that time. We talked about party therapy I literally had started using when I was in New York, we would go to Eric Prydz shows who's if you know, he does.

Alison Cebulla 55:27
Madison Square Garden. I was there. Okay, so we

Evan Cudworth 55:31
used to call it. I call it Fritz therapy, because none of us could afford therapy. So we're like, let's go to print shows. Take Molly, and like, that was our therapy. We would love to talk to

Alison Cebulla 55:42
you more about that. I want to talk to you about that. Because we did that. We did Episode Five, five. And I have a thing, right? Yeah, yeah, I'm with Heather Smith. And and psychedelic and MDMA therapy. And it made me think of, and I mentioned in that episode of rave therapy, because, um, I, so I was, I was a hard drug user at 19 dropped out of college. That's what I meant. And when I right after I'd gone to rehab, and then and then I and then that was more that wasn't so much MDMA, but then MDMA came into my life. And that was like sort of another phase that that phase didn't necessarily get out of hand. And I think that actually, because it's funny, because there's so much stigma in the media. Like, I can remember my therapist and rehab telling me that oh, the science says that MDMA kills all the brain cells in your brain, and you can't ever get them back. I remember her telling me that it's so terrible. Yeah, because to be honest, my MDMA experiences were so therapeutic and healing and feeling love for the sum of the first like, actual, just such huge, enormous universal love. That I think fam, it's really hard for families and parents to even give that kind of love. So I'm not even saying necessarily that I missed it, but just like, it's I don't know that it exists. It feels so good.

Anne Sherry 57:06
Yeah. Well, I mean, it is a proven treatments for PTSD. And I mean, it's coming. I would say in probably two years, all psychedelics are gonna be legal. In many states, of course, who knows? Whatever. But for the most part, yes, but it is there's training programs galore, but it's like the, you know, it's in a settings nice and it's internal, and a therapist sort of sitting with you, but not a ton of guiding like with so substances. Your system is just gonna unfold. So anyways, but yeah,

Alison Cebulla 57:42
yeah. What was your experience? Yeah.

Evan Cudworth 57:45
So you know, I think why I was bringing some of this up of that dark place there was I was looking all over the place for ways to grieve for ways to connect for ways to and I like you, I remember, like trying to read books and just Googling, like, what do I do when my mom died?

Alison Cebulla 58:09
Like? To be honest, I really do not.

Evan Cudworth 58:14
I remember, I remember like, therapy and Daxing, where I literally would like, go try to find therapists, because in New York, it was like, $300 to get a therapist. And I was like, I just needed to talk to somebody and like, This guy had said, like, oh, just come in. And then he says, like, oh, it's at the end. He like, surprised me was like, it's gonna be $300 I was like, I don't have that. And like, you'll be like, well, you need to pay I literally had ran out of his office.

Like shit. I found a lot of not good things during that time. But

you know, because of all of those things weren't going on. I really was finding connection. And like, my, I've kept a journal for 17 years, pretty much daily. And it's, I go back and read those and they are filled with, like, yes, the extreme lows of like, I'm literally typing like, I am depressed. I know, I'm depressed. This sucks. But then being like, I cannot wait to go this weekend and see my friends and go to Mystery Land. And like Dan said out all weekend and that kept like, the chicken and the egg thing. But I think a lot of people blame, you know, the party scene for these kinds of things that happened but most people make their way there because they are not being served by the plethora of other things that I've said yes, are healthier and are probably better long ways to do it. But when you're in that state, like unless, okay, so this the reason I'm becoming a party coach is because when I was looking for those resources and wanted to try to get sober I walked into my first AAA meeting in 2015. I remember writing my journal I'm drinking out of fear, finding love and support and things there but finding a lot of bitter notice a lot of you need to take your away go away from all these people these are bad for you

Alison Cebulla 1:00:07
but these are my you can't take my people away from me fuck you that same exact experience you will have to rip my dead unless

Evan Cudworth 1:00:19
I want to be really clear like the like addiction and abuse is it's a spectrum and there's problem and there's addiction and for people that are truly in an addiction mindset and are really damaging there I've that but I had never no troubles with the law. No hospitalizations, no things I did want

Anne Sherry 1:00:39
to say I'm actually did change it from like, whatever. And I'm sure it's still fucked up. Yeah, and not a whole lot. Yeah,

Evan Cudworth 1:00:50
well with the are changing. I owe so much of who I am today. And especially the man I am today, because of what I found in 12 Step programs I had when I got to LA and I did a almost a full year. And there was a there was there was work here and people that I met here that I am being so incredibly grateful for and and I've not been there without it. But what I what? I leave it open, like I don't know what I'll be in 20 years, I might be it ends up back there. Fuck yes. I have no fucking clue. You know, thank

Alison Cebulla 1:01:22
you for saying that. Absolutely.

Anne Sherry 1:01:26
You don't know.

Evan Cudworth 1:01:27
I do not know. I think I'm probably even still identify as an addict. In certain ways, I think but yeah, I

Alison Cebulla 1:01:37
do too. I do too. Yeah, it's definitely definitely Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Evan Cudworth 1:01:42
But where I go, they say the opposite of addiction is connection. And for me, as a party Coach, what I do is teach people how to connect. And if you can fill and if you're more filled with connection, than you are with the substance, then even if the substance remains, and you need to do it every once in a while, and like that's a part of what you are, but your life is working. And you're not damaging people in your life. And you're still existing in a way that is fulfilling and exciting for you, then maybe that's a more sustainable way to live life and as a dry drunk, or somebody who is miserable, and walling themselves off from people and make them happy. Because there's substances and things like that exist in the middle. And this is really cool. I can't believe I just said this out loud.

Anne Sherry 1:02:39
Well, I'm a therapist, and I, you know, I don't know what for the stamp of fucking approval I have. But I love what you said, yeah, like connection. It's not like, again, we get into these polarizations you're either a fuckup and drunk and you're sober, we're gonna have to like find our way through capacity. And what I hear you saying is connection, you're gonna have to trust. I mean, we learned a while supposedly the therapy field, you know, we used to say you can't get therapy until you get fucking sober. Like, we had no idea that there was a connection between mental illness trauma and substance abuse, we just treat silos so what I hear the more that we can stop putting us all in silos and say, I don't know this feels okay, and be okay with like, some of the edges, right? We want it controlled and safe. And this is a good practice and it's healing and it's kind of like, I don't know, we're not gonna make it and I want

Alison Cebulla 1:03:35
to break I want to bring some like a negative side in for discussion of the dark side, the shadow side of connection. So when I was living in New York, I definitely was going out to parties sometimes to have connections validate my worth. So that could be finding a guy to make out with on the dance floor or feeling validated by by men flirting with me or giving me attention, or maybe sometimes going home with, you know, a man that I had just met. And that was a part that I really needed to heal because it was feeling sick. And I can remember going to dance party at a warehouse in Bushwick. While I think I was really working with with Claudia, who we interviewed a couple episodes ago, who was helping me with all the stuff. You have to listen to that one. Yeah, so 2121 and, and I went and I was like, I am just here for me. Like I'm just here for me. And I'm just gonna see how much I can enjoy dancing. I didn't drink anything. I just and I didn't flirt with anyone. I just enjoyed the music and enjoy being in present my body and dancing. And I had so much fun, and I think it's it's I also have fun when I go and my intention is connection. And I just wanted to bring in like, I had this really great time when I went and my intention was don't connect.

Anne Sherry 1:05:08
Yeah, yeah.

Evan Cudworth 1:05:10
Well, and this brings things probably all full circle connecting all these things. So for me, speaking of connecting, that really did this and I think we're things shifted, you know, I was drinking a lot in, in college. And there was some times that I was trying that connection, but like when I moved to New York and found Coke, like, that, not only opened up, like, oh, I can do this longer. But it was the thing that allowed me to connect with dudes, especially straight dudes, who would want to stay up with me all night and share their deepest, darkest things. And yes, sometimes would turn into something else, you know, and it unlocked this side of like, getting that sexual intimacy line blurred in a way. Yeah. became this Pavlovian like, oh, when do you want this? This is the thing that does it for you, God, right. And, you know, on and off over the years, like when I've when something doesn't go, right. I it took me longer than it takes that should take anyone doesn't like see those patterns and be like, oh, what I feel like rejected, right? Yeah. What I feel rejected. I was like, oh, I need to go to a party. And that's what I do. That's what I find this guy. And that's what I ended up with seven in the morning, like on the beach with some stranger like, right, so clearly, like the tape plays the same way every time. But, you know, it was hard for a while because I, I it it was serving me, right? I wasn't like it's an outside when you look at it, you're like, why are you doing this, but it was like, I was having fun, you know? And like I was still get my hangovers weren't that bad yet? I hear you. And all those things were kind of working. And I was like, This is what you've always wanted. Why would you stop doing this? So glad you're saying this? Yeah. And finally, you know, like, when you get sick of your own shit, I go back and read the journals. And the weirdest thing about the journals is like, I got moving to LA, just not a astrology person. Like, don't give a shit about the moon. And like now I literally host a moon circle. And every week we come together if we're going to do this, at the same weekends, every year, we can count I was making the same mistakes. I was doing like in the exact same thing. It was things were moving. I was like, Oh, wow, like for the past seven years. On this day, I've had like the worst Bender of the year.

Alison Cebulla 1:07:31
You're really making a case for the stars and alignment here. Yeah.

Evan Cudworth 1:07:40
Yeah. I will say the way that I get for me, the way that I think about a rash is not that the stars are even gravity or moving those things but you know, whatever. You know, like energy is moving around in the people throughout the world. Like there are things that happen as as wind shifts and moves things and like we just tend to do different things and like you can either we talked about like surfing a wave, you can either choose to ride it ride that wave in, or you can push your board in and wait for the next wave to go through. So every time there's a cycle or something like that, I tell my body was like okay, do I want to ride this Aquarius wave? Or do I want to go nope, not for me and I put my head under. So like, that's how I can use it is is it's there for me or not

Anne Sherry 1:08:29
like a choice having a choice

Alison Cebulla 1:08:38
Okay, I'm gonna drop in a little science corner here. I found such a cool study in the arts in psychotherapy journal, and this was published in 2006. And it's called neuroscience meets dance movement therapy, mirror neurons, and the therapeutic process and empathy. I'm just gonna read the abstract. It says the recent discovery by neuroscientists of mirror neurons has launched a spate of scientific investigations, a keystone of the therapeutic process of dance and movement therapy. The concept of mirroring is now the subject of neuroscience, and interactive phenomenon. Studies are revealing that the identical sets of neurons can be activated and an individual who is simply witnessing another person performing of movement as the one actually engaged in the action, or the expression of some emotion or behavior. The domains of behavior currently under investigation span, motor, psychosocial and cognitive functions, including specific psychosocial issues related to attunement attachment theory and empathy. Although dance and movement therapy and body's empathic forms, until recently their neuro biological underpinnings have not underpinnings have not been studied. The paper addresses the theoretical constructs of the mirror matching mechanisms and empathy and the implications for dance and movement therapy therapy. Beginning with the basic mapping of important central nervous system structures and their behavioral functions, the focus shifts to the mirror neurons with respect to the formative years visa vie, the developmental issues of empathy, attachment, attunement, social cognition and morality. The final section offers to exemplars of mirror neurons and empathy as mediated through dance and dance movement therapy. Okay, so that's a lot of words. But um, and I don't have access to the full article, unfortunately, I really hate these paywalls that you have to be in academia to read a lot of these full studies, just drives me nuts. But what I'm really curious about learning more about is how dance movement, especially in a group setting, like a rave or a dance party, where you're around a lot of other people, and you're all dancing and moving your bodies together in time with the music, I'm really curious to learn if that actually helps heal, attachment trauma. That's what this abstract is sort of implying that there's some attunement that's going on because of mirror neurons. So you're watching other people dance and move. This is affecting your brain as if you're doing it yourself. But then you are doing it yourself. So the app feeds to the other person's mirror neurons as well. And it seems to be a feedback loop that sounds very healing. So I kind of always had a feeling that going to raves and dance parties was very healing. And there is quite a bit of research and evidence. And I will link to this one in the show notes. And another one that I found that dancing is very healing and regulating to the nervous system. But it's so cool to see from this study that it's especially healing when done with others.

Let's learn a little bit about party coaching. And I just want to say that from an outsider's perspective, watching you on social media, I saw that you were doing the kind of essay coaching like getting into school because you worked in that field for a while. And it's so interesting, because it's like, you have that coaching in you. However, it wasn't your exact, highest self. It's and it's like, that's why I'm really admiring your journey so much is that I'm like, wow, like, what is my version of stepping into something as radical as a party coach, dude, I mean, like, what is my version of like, being my most authentic self and especially because like what I said about there's so much shame around dance culture, dance music culture, when I just want to tell everyone

Anne Sherry 1:12:48
to go on it change.

Alison Cebulla 1:12:50
I mean, but yeah, if it doesn't have to be unhealthy, it can be so amazing. You can have these great friends, you're in your body. You're dancing, you're moving, you're enjoying.

Anne Sherry 1:13:02
Like, I grew up in fucking Footloose. like, damn, like, it's terrible, you know, a self imposed Footloose or something? Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:13:12
there was like, there was a coach that I was watching once that was say, that had this thing where she said, You have to flip your flaws. And I almost feel like that's what you I mean, it's so hokey, right? But I feel like that's what you've done. Right? Is something that normally people would shoot for and you're saying, no, it's actually my greatest strength. So anyway, talk about whatever you want.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:33
Yeah, that

Anne Sherry 1:13:35
supporting your highest self and your highest good and everyone's highest good and transformation and coming together. I love all of that. And it seems like such a bummer. A lot of this equity work too is like no, it's hard. We're all terrible. We came from there. And it is it is it is, but how are we going to play together? Yeah,

Evan Cudworth 1:13:53
getting getting to this point where it's like I can talk about all the things that I'm talking about with you right now party coaching and, and fighting an addict and all those things like I've these been threads in my life that have like con together and through it all, like I've had a pretty chaotic but fun career. I started in college admissions. I was like a really young but it was like directing our marketing and rebranding for the entire University of Chicago. I started this office in New York and it was like recruiting from the I was literally Gossip Girl, I'd wear a suit and go recruit the most elite private schools in New York attorney, I worked at Rockefeller Center you know, like I had this cool thing and then I moved to Shanghai and then then the party not too much in Cleveland I worked in tech and then yes, there's coaching

Alison Cebulla 1:14:45
forgot about Cleveland. I forgot about Cleveland. Okay, keep keep going.

Evan Cudworth 1:14:49
But through it all. And then I thought I found my dream job working in music here in LA, which was which was really fun, but uh, Through it all. Yes, people tell me Evan, you're the most right. I'm always doing a lot like, yes. And

Alison Cebulla 1:15:10
he's a seventh all the way. Enneagram seven, okay?

Evan Cudworth 1:15:15
It's just seven right here.

Alison Cebulla 1:15:16
So it's an okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:20
But in fact, lose seven. So

Evan Cudworth 1:15:24
letting go of the things that I had been along the way, and this college admissions consultant being one of them is that through it all the money, I got really good at it. And the money is really good. You know, like us, you can make six $700 An hour working with people in that space. And I had really excellent mentors. And I learned a lot about coaching in general from doing that work over the past couple years. Yep. But the person that I was showing up to do that work? Well, I could get invested in the students and I could sort of help with these things. But the things that people cared about, like this, what is the bumper sticker on my car, and like, like how these extreme details that I knew as an admissions officer didn't fucking matter, but people really cared a lot about these things. Yeah, I was having to show up as somebody really inauthentic to a lot of these interactions. Wow. Because the money mattered to me. And I had to finance my lifestyle, a party. And so the final, you know, over the past,

Anne Sherry 1:16:29
they cut out the middleman,

Evan Cudworth 1:16:31
the pandemic, yeah, the pandemic, I lost my job in that music job, which I was working with his music label, and I love the people there turns out that was a blessing. I hired this purpose coach, in like that summer of the pandemic, and she really helped me start to align this vision. But through all the thing that came together is being able to take what I have always been, which is somebody who is gonna search for that authentic connection, whether out of desperation, or whether out of genuinely believing that, like, our life is better when we connect in that tribal way. But seeing how toxicity can get along the way, like, basically, Ark, what alcohol and booze companies do is they basically take our confidence, they dilute it, and bottle it up, and they sell it back to us, right. And this is actually what you need to connect with other people. When you're drinking this diluted confidence all the time, you are constantly living in the expectations on the outside of it. So when I got that year of sobriety, when I stepped back into some of these things, all these things started to open up for me. And when I went back into that when I was working in that music label, every single event was beer, beer, beer, beer, beer, and it was all that we're doing all the time. I was talking to people afterwards. I was like, that was fun, but like, don't you feel like shit on Monday, Tuesday? And I like Yeah. How are we gonna do this? And then there's just no conversation about alternative. And for me, here's another here's Maxim. Most most anxiety party anxiety is lack of creativity. Right? So your anxiety

jump into that networking event, or you step into a rave and you're like, oh, my gosh, what I feel it is not because other people are judging you or anything like that. It's because you have not creatively thought about why why you exist in this space, and what can you create in this event. And if creation is too scary for you, the simplest is my simplest party advice is if you're nervous going somewhere, your job is to find somebody who is either the closest level of anxiety to you and help them feel less anxious. And if you could help one other person feel a little bit better. You've won that party, and you've made

Alison Cebulla 1:19:02
it so good. I have a story. Yeah. Thank you so much. Okay, so there's so many similarities. I so I just really, really, really appreciate that. Thank you. Um, but I be having been a coach. I also love the idea of setting an intention and I do want to ask you like, what other intentions do you think are good, but I can remember going to see one of my favorite DJs in Austin DJ a Tisch? I don't know if you've seen him. Um, and it was, yeah, it was during South by Southwest and so we thought it was going to be it was like a guy that I was somewhat romantically interested in, but he was from out of town and he was just visiting seems like a little awkward hadn't seen him in a while. And I thought it was gonna be like such a big fun party because it was South by but with South by there's so many other events happening that like no one was there. And we walked in and I was like, I was like, now I'm gonna talk to my date, you know, and like, This party is not good. And I just turned And I was like, Well, I was like, Do you? Like do you want to make this a fun night? Or do you want to go? And we were like, Let's make this a fun night. And I was like, Okay, here's the game. I was like, We need to find the most interesting person in the room. So we love it. So yeah. So we looked around, and there's this woman, and she's wearing like a giant fur coat and some other and we're and we both looked at him. We were like that one. Yeah. And we immediately went over and just started talking to her. And it was and she was so vibrant, and so fun. And after a few minutes, she was like, Hey, do you guys want to meet a Tish See, brings them over, and I spend the next next probably 40 minutes talking with a tissue about the nature of creativity.

Evan Cudworth 1:20:47
Oh my gosh.

Anne Sherry 1:20:52
Yeah, life in astrology because your stars are like always fucking happens for you.

Evan Cudworth 1:21:00
That phrase that you just use there, let's make this a game is like week six, Week Six and seven of my programs. So what I do is I run a seven week program called detoxify your social life, that is about learning how to curate a vibe that is true to you. So the first third of it is about quietness, right. So you do a dopamine fast, you sort of get really try to be sober as you can and really clean that out, clean up your mind, we come together and that time you're journaling and being introspective, the second part is starting to build, like, Okay, what is this vibe and start to communicate that both to us as a group, but you literally call seven people in your life and are like, hey, what, like, what is my vibe? What do you think about me? Like, this is where I started, get that information? But then the last part is game, how do you turn this into a game, and you have to go like, one of the assignments is like, go to a bar sober, and talk to three people and like, create some

Anne Sherry 1:21:59
terrifying

Evan Cudworth 1:22:00
boss in that game, like you get to create the game. So

Alison Cebulla 1:22:04
what your win is which,

Evan Cudworth 1:22:07
right? Yeah. And so for some people, I was like, Hey, do you need to combine your business? Like, do you need to be like selling to people, like just go and like, do that, right? But do it at a bar and start to get those reps in, where you are the confidence that you had, again, here's another thing that I just wrote the other day, but one of the things you realize in short term sobriety is the things that used to make us happy, we gave up on them. As soon as alcohol entered our lives, the simple things like going and being safe. I remember walking around with my friends at Walmart, because there's nothing else to do bumblefuck, Illinois, and we were just like, around, and like, that's what we would do on a Friday night is we would just like walk around Walmart and like, just hang out. Or we're

Unknown Speaker 1:22:53
looking for us. Yeah. Like

Evan Cudworth 1:22:56
Burger King. Like, like when this confidence it's diluted and sent back to us enters our lives. The simple things that made us happy before or gave us that confidence become like clouded and a little bit lost. So learning how to like step back into that takes some So Kurt Kierkegaard talks about how we like sort of bring these things back and the first is silence and being quiet. The second I believe is called My gosh, I'm forgetting the second but it's it's it's this idea. It's like giving information like being that is like God like the confidence like how do you go and create those kinds of things? So

Alison Cebulla 1:23:39
the University of Chicago back yeah, thank you.

Anne Sherry 1:23:44
I was a Religious Studies major and University of Chicago was like, we're not worthy. I went to Colorado. You have the program for

Evan Cudworth 1:23:54
I entered as a I was really interested in Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations. I read Gilgamesh in high school and did my piece my high school thesis on, like myth, the flood myth, and sort of where does that come from? And that's a big reason why I chose Chicago was that a place where these archetypal religious ideas and texts, you know, sort of came down into that. So with that, you know, whoever wherever anyone if you're listening to this, that you feel like you are on a journey where the archetype that you're living into is not working anymore, and you had this idea of like, I was supposed to be connected. My life was supposed to look like this. I'm partying or like, even if it's just with your local bar with your friends, or if you're a mom that's at home and it's like, like wine is the thing that you use to do that, or whatever it is, like

Anne Sherry 1:24:49
there's a lot of mom alcoholics. They were like, You deserve this. You're a mom, you're bored all day, start drinking a whole new the whole time. That's an alcoholism.

Evan Cudworth 1:25:00
Yeah, there's, I'm creating this possibility right now for you listening to this, you don't have to give this stuff up forever. Giving yourself one to three months free of that. What starts to happen in the first month is like, you're gonna be a little angry or you'll be a little upset. Like once you get a little bit free of that. Yeah, you will return to that happiness that you had before this enter that lives and that confidence that's living within you this whole time. It's there. But you have to ask for help. And you have to get outside of this because a lot of try to do this on your own. Yeah, not feeling that connection. And you and I and creating that connection. This is a group coaching program that I do, and there's so many, there's actually this other great plug somebody else. They're my competition. It's called monument, I believe, and they are a little bit more geared towards the line moms, but it's literally support groups for people that are smarter. It's not a but just like what moderators love that amazing. They're really great, too.

Anne Sherry 1:25:59
That's right. Well, I'm saying two weeks, Tom and I stopped drinking four years ago or something, it just we you know, we whatever

Alison Cebulla 1:26:07
he you are, you whine a little, my two

Anne Sherry 1:26:11
year old came up to me was like your mommy like 10 in the morning handed me my wine glasses that's on the floor, you know, but they're not being able to you got to replace it with something. I replaced it with yoga, but there was this other piece of like noticing just the separation of acquiring the substance,

Alison Cebulla 1:26:31
you know, like whole thing is a financial

Anne Sherry 1:26:35
time spent on that. And so that's a bunch of time that you get back as well as not just so anyways, yeah, yeah, like we used to go to Trader Joe's and I would have to buy like $200 worth of shit to hide the $100 of alcohol that I had like shit that I didn't want. So fuck you Trader Joe's.

Evan Cudworth 1:26:53
I just want a like a dry January group I host every month to a month I have like a free it's free thing. You just come in and you and you do support with that. Yeah, one of the women who came into it, she was like, I haven't I just joined this like wine club. And like, I'm really excited for this. And she then she was like, she looked up on my wall and like, she's like my mat says, I hope you brought wine. And as she started to look around her apartment, she was like, This is my, this is how I built my connection. And she was like, she's like, What? She sent me the message and I cancelled the why membership. I threw this stuff out. She's like, I feel so good. She's like this doesn't have to.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:33
Yes,

Anne Sherry 1:27:34
well, again, that polarization you're either you either have a deep problem with alcohol, or you don't. And there is so much in the middle where you I didn't want to admit it, but we were alcoholics so bucket it was finally good to admit it. Yeah. Okay, Alison, I can be messy. Your dad I feel like Kevin Bacon from Footloose is just dancing inside.

Alison Cebulla 1:28:00
Yeah, this is a great so we're gonna Yeah, so I've been posted on social media last night. What's your intention? And I had to think about it. So thank you for posting that. And I said I want to have a living room dance party just by myself. And I set that intention and I did it I put on my favorite rate playlist and I had a dance party. So good. I haven't felt that good in a long time. So Evan Yeah, doing the Lord's work here. Doing the Lord's

Evan Cudworth 1:28:32
to my middle school youth director so

Anne Sherry 1:28:36
well, I'm gonna host a dance party for our church once we like a monthly nails party. Yeah, without all the oldies inside man goes to liberal United Church of Christ. Yeah, like

Evan Cudworth 1:28:49
I ice have reintroduced a lot of theology and that in my life now and actually is now on. I've started doing Jordan says called vomo It's vocal movement, which is a lot of church people at former church people currently, it's people are recommit literally, like there's a whole like cloth, he's banned and we sing. But we'll sing like Lady Gaga songs like pray style, and it's for me, so you can take the search out of the Midwest, but he'll find his way back. Yeah, man. Brilliant. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:29:24
This I think our listeners are just gonna say thank you for this episode, because so many of our listeners have been like, I've lost my way with joy. I lost my way. And so we just we needed this and thank you for your work and thank you for your vulnerability. That's Yes, that's a gift to us. Um, that's how that's how we all learn and grow. I feel like that's an answer to your question is like when we see other people's stories that helps us heal and grow. So thank you for sharing yours.

Evan Cudworth 1:29:56
Thank you. Well, thank you both. Thank you, Alison. It's been a joy Watch your journey. Thank you. And thank you so much. It's a pleasure to meet you with this and I'm looking for overnight manifestation mood energy to bring you out here and we're gonna create the desert.

Alison Cebulla 1:30:19
So, Evan, where do people find you real quick? We'll post in the show notes. But what what should where can people find you?

Evan Cudworth 1:30:25
So the best place to start is just my Instagram, which is Evan under slash Cudworth. So you DWR th pretty much find everything. There's a link there to my party coaching program. I have a newsletter called vibe curator. That's a lot of sort of stories from the front lines of going to party sober, like how do I do it? How do I don't and when I do drink, or when I do bring those things in? How do I make those choices? And why do I sort of talk around that? So it's pretty that newsletter is new, but I would love feedback on that. And if you're just sober, curious, your ideas about that. Hop on into one of my dry months and let's make this happen.

Alison Cebulla 1:31:00
All right.

Evan Cudworth 1:31:03
Thanks very much. Have a good one.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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