22 - Historical Trauma Never Takes a Day Off—with guest Dr. Donielle Prince

Episode Notes
Written By

Anne and Alison interview Dr. Donielle Prince about holidays in the United States like Presidents day and the legacy of historical racial trauma and violence which complicates celebrating said holidays. We talk about the messiness of engaging with social justice and racial equity work and how to stay in the work. Most importantly we talk about why we need to keep doing this work. Listen to this episode for a new way to celebrate Presidents' Day in America.

Donielle’s experience with research, policy, and reform is reflected in her deep commitment to advocating for social justice. This work has included youth mentoring, including first-time offending juveniles and foster youth; as well as community-based organizing against state violence, educational inequity, and lack of access to mental health supports, particularly for members of marginalized communities—similar to the community where she was raised, in East Palo Alto, CA, located in Silicon Valley. Currently, Donielle resides in Sacramento, CA. Donielle has studied education, counseling psychology and human development, and race and racism, earning her B.A. at Wellesley College (1995), her MS.Ed. at the University of Pennsylvania (1996), and her Ph.D. at Stanford University (2006). 

"Over 10 years ago, I sat down with a family and a school staff member to bridge a misunderstanding. We all got up from that table with a common understanding that a child’s difficult behavior was rooted in something he had no control over — his body’s stress response, connected to the trauma he had experienced, and that the school, until that meeting,  neither knew about nor understood, how to help heal. Their strategies had, in fact, retraumatized the child. After our meeting, the school staff took seriously my suggestions about how to help soothe this child’s fears and swiftly implemented effective interventions. The difficult behaviors soon subsided.

As a therapist and education researcher, I have learned that like this school, many environments lack an understanding of how humans work. The ACE Study and related research and practice have innovated a simple yet profound way of helping organizations and communities understand how humans work, and how institutional practices can support or hinder healthy growth. Once these connections are made, the work to address the harm that institutions can do becomes clear and urgent."

Donielle's LinkedIn
PACEs Connection Website
Audio engineering by Josh Collins.
Theme music is “One Cloud is Lonely” by Proxima Parada.

Show Notes:

Intro:

Social Science Corner:

Interview:

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:08
Welcome to latch key urchins and friends podcast. I just had the whole thing

Anne Sherry 0:13
you did. I was like I was I could feel the nervousness rising. Like I was like, I haven't thought how to say friends. And you just didn't. I just didn't much.

Alison Cebulla 0:21
You're welcome. Okay, I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:25
And I'm an sherry.

Alison Cebulla 0:28
You know, a little a little bit culty they have their intro pre recorded, could be something I look into.

Anne Sherry 0:35
We might want to do that. I think we get stuck here, or I certainly do. And I'm like, Okay, maybe we'll just like need this dough. Like just this dough. Try to bake some bread with just this little bit. So I need to just bake this intro and then we can go into talking about shit. Before the episode.

Alison Cebulla 0:56
Yeah, baked the intro.

Anne Sherry 0:59
Or be baked in the intro. That might

Alison Cebulla 1:04
or might be terrible. We could

Anne Sherry 1:08
we could do one of each and just see what happens.

Alison Cebulla 1:12
The other night. We were so baked that Oh, I I need to send you your birthday present. We were so baked that we couldn't even change the channel. We were like, Oh, yeah. Did you want to watch Abba elementary or the great, but those other shows we're watching right now. And we were watching the Olympics. And we were like, I don't I think we need to just leave.

Anne Sherry 1:33
Oh my god,

Alison Cebulla 1:35
you got on the channel and saw

Anne Sherry 1:36
that says very like, that's what the 70s felt like. Normally because we didn't have a remote. Right? So okay, yes, there weren't that many channels anyways, but if you wanted to watch something else, you had to get your fucking ass off the couch,

Alison Cebulla 1:52
my TV, right TV in college, how to turn a crank dial. Yeah, I came

Anne Sherry 1:57
back on that a little bit. And just like there was no pause. So like commercials came on and you fucking hooked it into the kitchen to make your snack or whatever. And it was like it's coming out. It's coming on and you're like sailing over the couch. Yeah, like, yes, the 70s were more fun and a lot of ways

Alison Cebulla 2:17
we know this reminds me of the book I just started which I love because it's dropping me right into our latchkey urge and energy and it's the night the 90s by Chuck Klosterman. And you and I guess you never got on the costume and train

Anne Sherry 2:33
up and he's like, it's called 12 bucks. Okay, I want to be called you. You

Alison Cebulla 2:39
want to be in the classroom and calls. And so he was born in 72. He's a prime Gen X or last year. His books are amazing. He writes about culture. He's hilarious. He brings in music. He brings in sports, but he's also just like a nerdy kid from North Dakota. And so anyway, he's the best. So the 90s just came out. I just downloaded the audiobook. And he does mention that how you could go through the 80s without a TV like some people just have one. But in the 90s he said everyone has a TV in the 90s. And that's what he said like every person in America was watching Seinfeld. Seinfeld versa. There wasn't Netflix. You couldn't just go watch something else. It was just Seinfeld.

Anne Sherry 3:24
Yeah, yeah. And then all our conversations were you know, that's Wordle is trying to do that. We're all playing. Oh, yeah, girl, and we all get one word. You know,

Alison Cebulla 3:34
these words sucked. I don't want to talk about it. Okay, yeah,

Anne Sherry 3:37
I got it. And three people got it in three minutes taking people down. I'm watching people but like, my streak is over. Get it in six. I was like, I'm in three. So.

Alison Cebulla 3:51
So okay, um, um, oh, but okay, this was an interesting thing from the 90s. I'm just on chapter one so far, but he said that the stereotype about Gen X was more like, my so called life that one TV show with Claire Danes or Reality Bites with Winona Ryder and and Ethan Hawke. Oh, that movie that was a movie, right? It was a movie. It wasn't a TV. It was a movie. And it's like, thought of as being like the quintessential Gen X movie. But he said that that was only a little bit successful. And my so called Life got cancelled after one season. Whereas the the complete anti vibe of what we think of as being Gen X or the 90s is friends and friends was the most popular like thing and the 90 of like, this is not that disaffected, you know, whatever Gen X culture, so that's super interesting to me.

Anne Sherry 4:46
And I think Oh, Allison, I'm just gonna show her look what time it is. 1111 keeps showing up. You're getting all conspiracy. Angels, they're talking to angels of speed. See, they're like you're doing good. Keep going. I think that's what they're saying. Anyways. And friends is making this resurgence among today's kids. I think like I hear, right. Yeah, like it's I don't love that show.

Alison Cebulla 5:15
I do not love though I

Anne Sherry 5:16
don't either. No. Okay, neither. Yeah. Yeah, it's just like

Alison Cebulla 5:21
a little too earnest. For me personally. Yeah, I am not that excited about my life as the as all every single fucking character in that show. Yes. Yeah, there's just way more depression or something for me. Seinfeld is more of my pace.

Anne Sherry 5:37
Completely, completely. Trying to remember. I mean, I was, uh, I watched it. But X Files was my big show. I think. I didn't ever watch that. Okay, yeah. Anyways, so, okay, so today,

Alison Cebulla 5:51
actually, you had some thoughts about, about last week's episode? Processing? Oh, my

Anne Sherry 5:57
God. Yes, the dignity piece like dysregulated we lose our dignity. And I was I've just been really pondering that and like, and it definitely ties in to equity work and racism. And what we're talking about interviewing Danielle, today, Black History Month, just I'm just struck by a fucking culture that is addicted to note, like shunning. Just not providing dignity, like, hmm. And then when you see, you know, you, like, see a homeless person on the side, and you're like, oh, like, what do I do? You know, your body goes into this intensity, or you see, I don't know, poverty, and you're like, oh, you know, but we have, where's the dignity in this culture. And, and that it's, it's so important to make space for dignity, structurally have dignity, you know, like, back into the mental illness pieces as well like that when the dysregulation is so on. Just it's on, there's no turning it off. We're just like, oh,

Alison Cebulla 7:09
it was so interesting to hear her say that with our conversations about the Kevin that I that I lost a few weeks ago, when I first was starting to get to know him, I was noticing that some I had this thought in my head where I thought some of his self worth has gone because of the experiences that he has had as a drug user. And it made me feel really sad. And it also made me really curious. I was like, I want to get to know this part of him more. And as I got to know it more, it got even sadder because he couldn't, he couldn't slow it down. Claudia does such an amazing job. And if you all missed episode 21 It's just you can't miss it. I've just listened

Anne Sherry 7:51
to it three times already. Literally, literally then mo because I've incorporating it into my therapy work. My own work my own curiosity and also I'm bringing into client's work.

Alison Cebulla 8:03
Oh, that's so good. Claudia. Thank you. But if if you don't have the skill set, like like with Kevin I was talking to another friend of his this week was that we were like he was like a toddler sometimes with him. He wasn't he didn't have a motion regulation. Or he was like literally like an infant. Like he missed that soothing. He missed that parental soothing of like rubbing his back soothing him, you know, it's okay, let me help you calm down. So he literally did not even have one iota one shred of an ability to calm himself. And, and so that he would lose his dignity more and more. And then he would do things because then the things that you use to self soothe yourself, like use drugs, yes, further degree. And then the stuff you do when you're on the drugs. So you you start traumatized. And then you just re traumatize yourself over and over. And it was so devastating to watch as I because I met him in 2016, which is hard to believe that that's six years ago, but he literally crumbled in front of my eyes like he was already knocked down off of you know, he was like star athlete, Ivy League student. Then he got knocked down. That's what I met him then he just kept knocking himself down it just so human your

Anne Sherry 9:27
way about falling data. Well, and there's no hands. Yes. And the speed at which you're going yes, that thing to grab on to.

Alison Cebulla 9:34
Yes. Yeah. Just horrifying to watch.

Anne Sherry 9:39
Totally, totally. Well, I you know, I am noticing I built an entire persona to erase John's lack of dignity. You know, I can remember just like, I'm going to go be a star athlete. I'm going to be really great at school. Yeah, even like, got into the full scholarship, Army ROTC. which I think we've talked about here. So all this shit. And I really was, I mean, I could do it all, but it was powered by erasing John. You know,

Alison Cebulla 10:11
so interesting now

Anne Sherry 10:12
and so now I'm like started but that is therapy goes on forever. So I do have this curiosity of like, wait a minute, I need to act a little less dignified in places not like, zip it up, I'm fine. You know, I'm fine i suck in your body I know. And I like you and Claudia sat there just like oh, and I was a drug addict. I was a sociopath. I was, whatever, Mental Hospital and I'm sitting there going like, Whoa, I don't do those things. I don't.

Alison Cebulla 10:45
I've been interested in

Anne Sherry 10:48
secret places where, you know, I might lose my dignity, but I'm very controlled. In many horrible I know, don't you notice? Are you are you like, like, have my? I don't

Alison Cebulla 11:01
know. That's so interesting to me. Yeah, yes. And that's what that's what Vander Kolk says the Body Keeps the Score. You think, Oh, I've got it all under control? I know. I don't I know. But then your body? I mean, but you seem to be healthy and your body? Yeah. Maybe Maybe you can fall You're doing great. And maybe I'm doing

Anne Sherry 11:23
fucking Fine. Whatever. Yeah, I have but I you know, I'm I don't even know if this is where I feel. It almost was impossible to start this podcast with you. Because my I lost my dignity when I lost my voice a few times throughout my life. Right, then all I do is I don't say oh my god, I didn't say I wasn't able to say what Claudia says, What the fuck is this? Is this you know, yeah, I lost I my body shut down when I was trying to speak at something, I don't know, like, loss of dignity. And I'm like, Okay, I just will never speak in public again, I will create an entire life that has none of that, you know, I so that's how my parts handle it. They don't go What the fuck is this? You know, it's just like, just just bring some more managers in, you know, so it's taken a long time to get the hair and a lot of therapy. And one of my people said, Just practice where it's safe. You know, when I was shutting down in a therapy workshop, or whatever. He was like, you just practice where it's safe. Your body is just shutting down. So just find places where it's safe. So that has been a mantra. But I probably need Yeah, so which leads me into the work of equity. Today's episode, Presidents Day, Presidents

Alison Cebulla 12:42
Day, so we're interviewing my colleague, Danielle prince, and Danielle is the just the best frickin person I've ever worked with. She's just all of our co workers say this about her. But I don't want to embarrass her too much. But she's just the absolute best. And I work in this field of trauma, Child Trauma, communication, health science, you know that it is called paces connection. And I haven't interviewed any of my brilliant, brilliant, brilliant colleagues yet. And so I'm just so excited to era this interview with with Danielle amazing. She's amazing. I love working with her. So she and I had done this event a couple years ago for the Fourth of July, where we were kind of trying to reevaluate American identity in the midst of the Black Lives Matter movement. And so I thought, when I saw Presidents Day coming up, I was like, What the fuck is President's Day? So Danielle helps us reframe Presidents Day. It's also black history month, this month, February. And I am like, Danielle mentioned this in the interview that people worked hard for Black History Month. So I am so curious what how did we get this month so I'm just pulled up the Wikipedia. And did February celebrated in February in the US, Canada, Ireland, and in the UK. It's in October. And so the precursor to Black History Month was created in 1926 in the United States, when the historian Carter G. Woodson, and the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History announced the second week of February to be quote, Negro History Week. And this week was chosen because it coincided with the birthday of Abraham Lincoln. Okay, so it's not a coincidence that Presidents Day and Black History Month are the same. Okay. Okay, because I was curious about that. Okay. I'm on February 12. And Frederick Douglass on February 14, okay, I went to the Frederick Douglass house in DC and it's a must see that is a must see everyone has to go there. is the best. Okay. Um, so Okay, so that's, that gives us the week. Let me scroll down a little bit and give us a little background on the month, Black History Month was first proposed by black educators and the black United students at Kent State University in February of 1969. The first celebration of Black History Month took place at Kent State a year later, in 1976 years later, Black History Month was being celebrated all across the country. Okay, so that's a little, a little background. President Gerald Ford recognized Black History Month in 1976. During the celebration of the United States Bicentennial, okay, all right. I'm super late.

Anne Sherry 15:46
76, Jesus, this we

Alison Cebulla 15:50
are still we just the racism in in the United States is off the charts. And we're just barely barely touching the surface of all the Yeah, I mean, just Well,

Anne Sherry 16:05
I mean, it's huge subject, obviously. But again, from a therapeutic perspective, like, even I get so curious. I say it again and again, why can't we care? Why is this so hard? Just to like, make space for people to love people, you know, and I my own journey around this is like, as you learn about it, like you start to your body starts to freak out, because the horror of it is, well, it's not unimaginable because it happened. But if it's never been taught to you like my fucking upbringing in Spartanburg in the 70s, it was all whitewashed history for sure. You know, I can remember reading finding a book on Frederick Douglass. I probably read it 10 times. I was like, this book is amazing. And I still have that book.

Alison Cebulla 16:55
I'm gonna He's amazing. I can't even

Anne Sherry 16:56
Yeah, yeah, but I was my mind was like, tell me more Tell me more and right. Because the truth and the truth feels like so named No. Interesting around me. And I came from a family that was Democrats and you know, liberals and but it was again, it was just don't talk about it. Like don't talk about the horrible stuff. Like in first grade, I can remember some. We didn't didn't have that much money we lived in to kind of, yeah, whatever. But like, I guess, I don't even know, rednecks or country people ever that were using the N word freely. And I came home and used it in regards to Aretha Franklin, a mother lost her shit, thank God. But that was it. That was the end of the conversation. Okay, something horrible happens. Don't talk about it, you know. So that's sort of at six. So we don't know how to talk about this, our bodies freak out, we start to lose our dignity, right? Even entering this space. So we just keep being like, get out. Don't do it. You know.

Alison Cebulla 18:00
It's just too horrible sometimes to like, sit with and we do mentioned this in the interview. But like, it's we're very privileged as white people 100% That if we want to just stop and detach and go, Oh, I think I'm done with equity work today. We can, like Oh, I think I'm done holding space for the horrors of enslavement, you know, 400 years of enslaved whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And we can we can just feel like not today. But if you're a black person or an indigenous person or another minority, say a lot next person in the United States. You don't have that choice. You're you're going to face you're going to face that. That perpetual trauma, whether you feel like it or not that day, and I don't want to I don't want to say that. Because there's this whole movement. I love following Rachel Kargil on Instagram, she's just the best human. She is an activist that and a teacher educator you know about racial equity issues, and she's like, we need to celebrate Black joy. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 19:05
well, that's again, Adrian Marie brown on your activism. Yeah, like if we're gonna if you stay in the awfulness of it all. You know, so finding pleasure finding joy in this work, finding connecting Yes, just getting better at being an honest conversations, making space, increasing your capacity. Be a devotee to dignity. I think I'm just really stuck on that book, creating dignified systems creating you know, because we just think well, that's just how it is. So I think I mentioned this in the in the interview, but I also the, this is not a one night stand. We're in a relationship. You have to see this as a lifelong you, you are getting married to this work. You have to stay in the relationship. But I think a lot of people it's like oh, just that I I've delved in, that was hard, that was terrible, and I'm out. So you have to stay in the relationship. And when you grow up with a lot of neglect, you grew up with a lot of neglect. You don't know how to fucking do relationships. You don't have play stamina for it. And so it's

Alison Cebulla 20:20
got it really feels like we have such a neglectful and gaslighting culture just across the board in the United States. And this is what like, the more I've learned about the history of enslavement, as well as the history of of saying, like, oh, this group doesn't count like with, even with like Irish or Italian immigrants, you know, that sort of thing. Different groups throughout, throughout the different waves of history in the United States, is that we're all being gaslit perpetually, about how much violence has gone into the creation of this country. And I think that that does relate to the fact that we can't even see or heal violence in our homes. Yeah, no doubt, like As Americans, we have this toxic positivity culture, where we just put we're just gonna put our hands over our eyes and it's good. It's fine. It's great. Yeah, just let the American Dream Manifest Destiny, it's fine. We're all fine. Because the original the original gas lighting was the was enslavement, just pretend it was fine. Pretend everyone's fine. You know? Yes. And the

Anne Sherry 21:29
white trash book is helpful in just like, it just sees humans as trash. Throw people, humans are throw aways. That other thing, it's almost like to this manifests that word comes up. But like, I, there's the famous therapist or something, I don't know, Instagram therapists or something. And you just need to manifest you know, like, if you if you aren't able to create the life that you envision, right? Something's wrong with you, and you're not manifesting hard enough. And it's like,

Alison Cebulla 22:03
like some MLM fucking culty show. Totally,

Anne Sherry 22:05
it does not acknowledge that these are entrenched, undignified systems, or create no dignity. And you can't manifest your way out of that, you know, so it's just as fucked up.

Alison Cebulla 22:23
So, in preparation for today's topic, I found a little blog that I'm gonna put in the show notes 10 facts about Washington and slavery.

Donielle Prince 22:35
So

Alison Cebulla 22:37
Dida, I mean, I guess it says, despite having been in in slaver for 56 years, George Washington struggled with the the set already sounds like some white washing, but whatever, with the institution of slavery and wrote of his desire to end the practice. At the end of his life, Washington made the decision to free all of the enslaved people he owned in his 1799. Well, why didn't he do it while he was still alive? That's what I

Anne Sherry 23:02
was thinking. And I, I read that and then, but the law wouldn't let him do it. Oh, really? Nice idea, Washington. But the law says you can't fucking do it. So

Alison Cebulla 23:12
I know. And so because Presidents Day is celebrating Washington, and Lincoln's birthdays, and we just want you to, as it comes up this coming Monday to think about reimagining this holiday and do some reflecting and we kind of think that our listeners are already these kinds of people, but maybe just look into I mean, I just I find it to be very problematic, that the Constitution is talking about freedom and rights for all except for some people except not women. And except not, you know, enslaved black people. It's just so it's just I just have trouble celebrating America. So just inviting you to sit there with that with us.

Anne Sherry 23:56
I do too. I do too. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 23:59
So um, please enjoy our conversation with Danielle.

Anne Sherry 24:05
She's Bye everyone.

Alison Cebulla 24:16
Hey, this is Alison and before we aired the interview with Danielle, I just want to do a little quick social sciences corner. Before or while I was editing this episode, I attended a panel about ACEs and different racial inequity issues through Boston University's School of Public Health, which is where I got my Master's of Public Health, and was listening to a presentation by Dr. John Pamplin, who's at NYU who got his PhD in public health at Columbia University. Talk about structural racism and systemic inequity, as it relates to cannabis use, which Ann and I were joking about a couple minutes ago in this episode, and so since we're looking inequity and inequity issues. Today, I just wanted to note that it's a privilege to be able to joke about marijuana as white women and marijuana use, even though it's completely legal here in the state of California. It's not legal in many other places. And the statistics are really, really upsetting. He was sharing and so I looked up a couple of things, to 2021 analysis of marijuana related arrests in 2020. In New York City's five boroughs reported that people of color compromised 94% of those arrested for marijuana possession in Milwaukee County in Wisconsin, black Wisconsinites were 4.3 times more likely than their white counterparts to be convicted for having marijuana. And a 2020 analysis by the American Civil Liberties Union concluded that black people are 3.64 times more likely than white people to be arrested for marijuana possession. And this presentation was about ACEs and the fact that due to this punitive racial inequity as it relates to marijuana, that black people are spending more time in jail and prison, even if it's just for a couple of days before they're released. And that that's an ace, that's an adverse childhood experience. That's one of the 10 Aces. So because of these systemic level, inequities, households are being disproportionately impacted for people of color in the United States. So really important topic to dive into. So I'm gonna link to a couple of things in the show notes about this topic. And just to keep in mind that Ian and I are extremely well aware of our privilege. We're comedy podcasts, we love to joke about things. We love to make light we love to normalize, recreational marijuana use things like that. However, we we have, we definitely are acknowledging our privilege. And I'm cannot wait for there to be true equity when it comes to this topic and so many others. In California, the LA County District Attorney, you know, this was news in September of 2021. He's moving to dismiss 60,000 past marijuana convictions, many are most of which are disproportionately impacting people of color. And so there's some good things happening, but they're kind of small. So you know, just something to keep in mind. And so check out our show notes for resources. Okay, here's the interview

Okay, so we are here with Danielle Prince. And it's, it is Dr. Dr. Danielle Prince. I feel I feel we don't include that enough

Anne Sherry 27:54
doctor is in the house.

Alison Cebulla 28:02
And Danielle, is a colleague of mine and we work together at paces connection and paces stands for positive and adverse childhood experiences. And, you know, even though it's interesting, because this whole podcast is about trauma, but I haven't I haven't had anyone on, you know any of my colleagues on yet. I want to interview everyone. So I'm just so honored and delighted, Daniela, that you are my first you know, paces connection person joining us on the podcast. So thanks for being here.

Donielle Prince 28:33
I'm honored to be invited. Thank you.

Anne Sherry 28:35
So nice to meet you. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 28:37
And so let me tell you a little bit about Danielle. Danielle. And I work in some similar overlapping capacities at pieces connection. So we help communities throughout the United States become trauma informed. And Daniela has been leading efforts in the state of California, which I've been so impressed with. It's kind of amazing here in California that there's been a lot of money funneled into Child Trauma prevention with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris and Gavin Newsom. Our governor just kind of really getting that this like prevention is is key. And so Daniela has been running our partnerships with some of these initiatives throughout the state of California and just doing awesome, awesome work. And so, Danielle is based in Sacramento. She's has studied education and counseling psychology and human development and race and racism. And she earned a BA at Wellesley College and a master's in education at the University of Pennsylvania and her PhD at Stanford University. So, anything else you want to add?

Donielle Prince 29:42
I think that's everything. I mean, I can throw in I've done a lot of research on school based mental health policy, which kind of links a little bit to the work that I do at basis connection, but it's not in my bio. Okay,

Alison Cebulla 29:59
you and I I hosted an event, I just kind of want to introduce the topic and I want to ask you about your, your childhood.

Anne Sherry 30:07
We tell you, you have to, you don't have Okay, good.

Alison Cebulla 30:12
I'm ready. Okay, so. So, Daniela and I co hosted through our work at paises connection and event around July 4 2020, an online zoom event where we discussed reimagining American identity. And we just kind of realized, you know, it was like pandemic stress. And it was really what a height of the Black Lives Matter movement, where there were a lot of protests happening and a lot of unrest that we realized that the Fourth of July felt like a really complicated holiday to wrap our head around our heads around and and celebrate, and we kind of opted to not celebrate and discuss that and I wanted to bring Danielle back for a continuation of that discussion. And Presidents Day is just coming here around the corner. And it's also Black History Month. And so we were going to talk about racism in America. Historical trauma has historical like sort of reckoning with historical Why don't we do this very well. What the fuck all of this kind of madness. So before we dive in, and die, yeah. Are you a latchkey? Kid? Are you an urchin? Are you a friend tell us.

Donielle Prince 31:32
I think of all those things. I know. That's our definition of urgent. So I probably but I probably am indefinitely, whacky experience. And when I think about it, and I think about our topic, it ties into social determinants of health because I, you know, childcare was not affordable. So, right. That gap between when kids go to school and the parents come home from work, that was pretty much the only option. You didn't have money for the after school programs that were provided or things like that. So right, right. I know when I think kindergarten and first grade, I went to a babysitter, so I will walk myself from school, maybe a block or so to a babysitter. But then after that, starting in second grade, I came home had to you know, have my little latch already.

Anne Sherry 32:23
My time. I've said that before it was second grade and my kindergartener brother. I scored him home on the bus and know that Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. It was kickball. Yeah, yeah,

Alison Cebulla 32:38
you're Tanya, you are the latchkey generation. You Are you your genetics. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you and Anne are both like Lanchester through the key and everything.

Donielle Prince 32:55
Yeah. And oh,

Anne Sherry 32:58
my god, Mike, because I never bathed. I think either is my key was so the string my leg was a shoestring that the key was on and it was just felt they Yeah.

Donielle Prince 33:09
How has something like that too, because you can't really trust a kid not to lose a key but I can totally

Anne Sherry 33:16
be attached. It's getting us ready for our Medic Alert. But like, I'm elderly, right? That's like I know. Yeah.

Donielle Prince 33:26
AARP is like, just right around the corner.

Anne Sherry 33:28
Oh, for sure. For sure. Yep. Yep.

Alison Cebulla 33:32
So and you I know you you have at least one brother because you've told me of a brother that is theater. And so was he coming home as well. And

Donielle Prince 33:42
now he had a very different experience. Because for one I'm he. I was seven years old when he was born. So there's a big difference. Big difference. And also, I think he's so he's not Gen X. He's the next one. I guess he's a millennial. And the attitudes also had changed and it felt less safe, I think to do that. And also, an important change happened as we moved back to the community where my parents had grown up with they had moved away from East Palo Alto. It's only about is it 10 Miles like if that to San Jose, but like, there was yet another world, local to travel. So you know, you spend a lot of gas and that sort of thing. So once we move back to East Palo Alto, then my mom had options and there was a woman in our church who stayed home with her kids. And so my mom offered to pay her to take on my brother, so she had to like change her lunch break so she could get my brother from well, when he from his first five years. He just was there on time. But then in his school age time, she would have to take her lunch break later in the day just so she could pick them up. Take them to her house.

Anne Sherry 35:00
Stress. Yeah,

Donielle Prince 35:01
actually later when he was much older, but like maybe 10 or 11?

Alison Cebulla 35:05
Yeah, yeah. Do you think that impacted you in any way? Or did you notice any differences between you and your brother in any way?

Donielle Prince 35:16
Well, I think this is not exactly a two strongest move. I'm gonna say it this way. I think I'm a lot more responsible and independent as a result. My brother is independent. He is care of his life. But I think that that segue was a lot smoother for me, because I got it. Got it. Yeah, he didn't have to, like figure out how to, you know, take care of loving

Alison Cebulla 35:43
way. with kindness. I've never seen so much kindness. Okay, continue.

Donielle Prince 35:51
Yeah, well, yeah. And my mom would say things like, like I was, I don't know exactly what age but at a certain point, I was doing my own laundry, like, doing all these things. And my mom tells the story of how when she did leave my brother home for that very short window between school and when she would get home. He would call her and ask her to come home from work because of wash a fork because there are no clean forks.

Alison Cebulla 36:17
No, no. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 36:23
mentality, I got it. I got it. Yes.

Anne Sherry 36:26
Yes. I feel like I've said this before, you know, it's like, we're, I had my son at 44. So he's nine now and it's the helpless. Tom and I are just starting to have those conversations of like, this kid is kinda helpless. You know, he's like, you know, we've got to make gizmo watch. I know, it's just easier to just fuck and do everything on some level or I don't know, we're not I don't know. We're just we've we're he's being he's being raised by a latchkey. I don't know. What's, what's this? It's gonna like you're kind of a new diagnosis. Yeah. I don't know. Can I ask down? Yeah. What did you do when you got home? Like, great question. Great. Yeah, I mean, we played kick. I mean, we were outside running around doing jumps down at the, I don't know, the kudzu patches and stuff. And I don't know, did you? Did you? Were you able to be outside playing with kids? Or did you need to stay in their

Donielle Prince 37:26
house, I explicitly was not allowed to do that. So. And it was, it was hard to because I lived, we lived in this nice cul de sac. And there's a lot of kids my age, you know, all at the same school. We were friends we played together. And that was fine. But my mom did not want me outside of the house when there was no like, supervision by her. So um, so I was explicitly I was not allowed. I wasn't I was very obedient child. So I did what I was told. So I was not allowed to go out. And I was not allowed to have any kid inside when she was in home. So I, the kids, they would be playing outside and have those.

Anne Sherry 38:01
Oh, you could hear I have to be inside you. Okay, what television Did you watch? Or were you allowed to watch?

Donielle Prince 38:07
I feel like some of my worst habits in life today are links to that time period, because I thought I would do I would just sit in front of the TV for hours. And so you know, there.

Anne Sherry 38:18
Tom and Jerry. Gilligan's Island. I don't know what TV shows were Yeah.

Donielle Prince 38:25
Definitely was into cartoons. By I can't remember them too clearly anymore. But when you say them, yeah, we were probably watching the same TV program. I

Alison Cebulla 38:35
bet. Whatever. weren't a million channels.

Anne Sherry 38:38
This is this this? I know all this television choices, like great in some ways, or whatever. But I think it's increasing our polarizations because we were all watching the same shit. Like, for the most part. four channels PBS zoom and Romper Room and yeah, electric company, I think and yeah, so Rogers, of course. Yeah.

Donielle Prince 39:00
Yeah, this is the children's programming. There weren't so many channels. period, and then children's programming would be limited. So yeah, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 39:09
I mean, for me, like when I was growing up. During the summers, there were quite a number of summers where we just get dropped off at some relative's house and they didn't really want to watch us I wouldn't say that they were bad at it, but they just it wasn't like their highest thing that they really wanted to do. And so we would just watch prices right at 10 by a young and the restless at 11 followed by Days of Our Lives at 12 followed by as young as

Anne Sherry 39:38
restless I think was only 30 minutes short when Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 39:44
it was yeah every summer just the worst. Yeah, this is what was on TV in the 90s

Anne Sherry 39:52
What did you what any snacks we've we've talked about sometimes the latch key snacks that like what did you make yourself to eat?

Donielle Prince 40:00
Hmm, I and that doesn't stand out really clearly problem cereal. So, um, the good one my, because my mom did not like we didn't have a lot of snacky type foods like she made meals and there were leftovers. And I probably didn't want any of that, but I probably want would want a cereal and usually let us pick like one thing that we really liked and then the rest were like Raisin Bran or something that was, you know, same. Yeah. And so that would probably be a snack I would have there wasn't too much else maybe. Yeah, make sandwiches with? Yeah. Awesome. And I pray to my. So I have a sister that she's my stepsister. So she lived with her mom. And so she didn't live with us. But for one year, her mom did something. I can't remember what I don't know if it was a program she went to. But she lived with us for one year. And that's when I was in third grade. And she was in second grade. And so then I did have that little bit of the, you know, the older sister responsibility to ah, yeah, I remember one time she also walked to school. So parents left before we got up. So we have school. And I remember one time, we overslept. And I was like, Yeah, I remember I can still remember how stressful that was. Because I had to make sure I got ready and she got ready and she wouldn't run fast enough.

Anne Sherry 41:32
Oh, I same sort of things. We would like we miss carpool or the bus because we'd get absorbed in a television show parents were gone before school. And like it just this panic of I still to this day if you're in trouble, or just like if I have to start moving anyways. Yep, they do these things make imprints like to this day, I think. Yeah, yes.

Alison Cebulla 41:57
Yes. Yes. Yes. You want to stress stream last night and I did where you like thought that you missed the podcast interview. And

Anne Sherry 42:10
it was I could not find a place to record and I forgot everything. And so anyways, yeah, anyways, so far, so good.

Alison Cebulla 42:20
Um, so Danielle, I actually am not entirely sure. I know. Even though I've been working with you for almost three years. How did you get into work this work have adverse childhood experiences. So it looks like it was something that you already wanted to, to study? I'm super curious how you ended up going to wildly weigh over on the other coast? You know, and then like, what led you to this path of working in the trauma trauma prevention field?

Donielle Prince 42:51
Well, um, the I like this question, because I don't get asked it very often, I'll get offered an opportunity to do that recap. So, um, when I was in high school, and kind of trying to think what am I want to do when I grew up, I remember we had this elective, or probably juniors and seniors, we had this elective of a psychology class. And, and so I took that class, and I thought, oh, that sounds like a really interesting career. So I started thinking in high school that I might want to major in psychology, and then I did I chose Wellesley, you know, I applied to a bunch of schools and actually didn't want to apply to Wellesley at all. But my mom knew someone who went to Wellesley and so yeah, she insisted, and I just knew I was not gonna I was gonna stay in California. I mean, I was firm on that in my head. Yeah. But somehow I ended up picking Wellesley. I don't know. I don't know what my final. I think a couple of my friends were going to be in the Boston area. It was like a goddess, why not a mature way of deciding. And my mom was, of course, she was like, you know, manipulating me, you know, she wasn't ordering me to go, but she was also dropping a lot of stuff to like, okay, all right. She thought it would just be the greatest thing. So I did. Well, actually, I really did like it a lot. Like I you know, it was very different. I mean, in so many ways growing up in California, and then suddenly being in a northeastern snowy City. I went to an all girls school. So being at a women's college was not it was

Alison Cebulla 44:37
just to continue. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Yeah.

Donielle Prince 44:41
And, and then I had, of course, you know, there's a lot of intercollegiate stuff, and there's nothing to do out in Wellesley. So you go into Boston and Cambridge for fun. Yeah. So, you know, I had a lot of great experiences, and I have several friends of close friends from that period. So Um, yeah, I was happy there for the period of time that I was there. And I did study, I didn't end up majoring in psychology. And that was the first time I started taking courses. That was that revealed like our later topic and revealed a lot had been left out of my education.

Alison Cebulla 45:18
Oh my god, much like everything. What are they teaching what I'm teaching

Anne Sherry 45:26
South Carolina people. So? So okay,

Alison Cebulla 45:30
so then so then grad school.

Donielle Prince 45:33
Yeah. And then. So then I was trying to figure out what am I going to do next. And I majored in psychology. And I was sort of unsure whether I wanted to go into counseling, and I had a research job for a psychologist on campus. And I thought, well, maybe I want to do research in psychology. And I wasn't quite sure. And there's this program at the University of Pennsylvania that advertises itself as when you finish this degree, you can work out as a therapist, or other other things people do as they it becomes like sort of a first year. And then you can go on to a Ph. D. program in psychology, that seems which like what you want to do, and also listed, like a lot of different research in psychology jobs, I'm like, that's great. And it's a one year program so that I went there. And I got a master's in psychological services, and went through counseling, practice and learned all these things. And at first, I thought, I don't think I want to do counseling. There's this really sad like, all the things that we were learning and the stories and I don't know, if I feel like my clients would tell me their story, and I would just cry.

Anne Sherry 46:44
You do you do? Sometimes you do.

Donielle Prince 46:49
I ended up my first job was in research. And that took me down another path. I hadn't like made this conscious decision that I wasn't going to do counseling, but I just was off and running. And then I ended up getting a PhD in education policy, kind of my interest was in relationships in schools because I saw I saw a lot of the problems in schools as teachers not being not I put it on teachers but now I have a more system level analysis. Sure.

Alison Cebulla 47:19
Sure.

Donielle Prince 47:20
I'm is I was what I learned by doing research in schools is that teachers did not have a background in human development in the same way. Yet when you train for counseling, and so

Anne Sherry 47:32
interesting, your path is just fascinating, and how it's like putting together individual counseling piece and Allison is keeps opening my eyes more and more to list on net systems. We're not just gonna love each other out of this, you know, one on one, nope. So change that feature to make us be against each other and stay busy fighting little little wars here rather than like coming together and being like, I'm really not diggin the way this system is set up.

Donielle Prince 48:07
And your tagline that you have? Why can't we care like that? It's not intuitive in American society to care for the collective. Like, we're geared towards being so individualistic. Yes. We even for a variety of reasons, have trouble caring for the people that we're supposed to care for. But we really have trouble just caring for people who are outside of ourselves or our sphere. So we're the, yeah, so when it comes, it's not an intuitive skill. And that's not true in every culture. Right? It's a deficit that we have. And so you can't, because of that, you can't expect that in any setting, whether it's health setting, or a school that people aren't going to know how to care properly for children for each other. That's right. Training because we don't, it's not it's not a part of our culture.

Anne Sherry 49:00
That's right. And systems so that everybody isn't exhausted and overwhelmed and like one mistake and or whatever, you know, then you're just caught up in a legal system or whatever, you know, just it's I'm reading tightrope right now I keep saying that and it's I just can't you must know this book Allison. But anyways, it is just it just blows apart. Basically, why can't we care? You know, just we just love to punish people. Punishment, yeah, punishment, creating these, you know, the trauma that's out there. And then of course, people are responding to trauma in a normal way, which is substance use, you know, just all these things and then without trauma informed care, you wind up in the legal system and then somebody's like, I can make $1 off this let's privatize the prisons. You know, let's

Alison Cebulla 49:56
Well yeah, I mean, like for my my personal story, which I think I, I did share, Daniela when we co hosted that event a couple years ago is that I just grew up, you know, regular American history classes. I was just kind of like, oh, it was slavery. That was kind of bad. But it happened a long time ago. And it wasn't that bad. Like, this is what we learned, you know, then actually was an you were the one that you started doing all this good work in church, you know, and you recommended that I read my grandmother's hands and I was like, okay, and everyone and a lot of people were waking up starting to wake up and but I went to the peace and peace in montgomery. Yeah, yeah, Justice injustice Memorial. Yeah. Lit lynching Memorial, where they don't yell. Have you? Have you been there? Okay. Um,

Anne Sherry 50:54
pilgrimage, every American. Really needs Yeah, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 50:58
So I, I was driving across the country to start grad school at Boston University, and I was on my way to visit and, and Asheville, North Carolina, and I really wanted to go see this memorial. And, you know, get a better look at the real history. And so the the memorial itself, in which they've kind of put up these big metal structures that are hanging from rafters, which is a really visceral impact with the names of different people who had been who had been lynched, and

Anne Sherry 51:32
from what county? It's from, yeah,

Alison Cebulla 51:35
yeah, stay on then. And went a couple a couple of weeks, couple months later. So you're seeing you're really actually feeling the impact and the horror, because this was post Civil War, which if you read just if you just read regular history books, you'd be like, well, that ended that was, you know, so glad that's over. Wow. But this memorial was to honor that these lives mattered and that and to really, actually feel physically feel the impact of just how devastating These losses were. And that so there's that part, which is kind of the art display, you know, but then there's a museum that goes along with it. And the museum was what should have been in our history books. Totally. And I cried for hours. I cried for hours. And so

Anne Sherry 52:33
how do we get this in the schools? Yes, well, then,

Alison Cebulla 52:37
so then, so then what you know, so then we have oh, it's Presidents Day, everyone gets the day off. And and, okay, so Presidents Day where we're celebrating George George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, which arguably you could say, Well, okay, Abraham Lincoln really pushed to and, and enslavement. This is great. George Washington a little more problematic. You know, own slaves owed enslaved people. How are we supposed to how we're supposed to do this fucking thing where we're like, I'm American, and there's all these holidays, and I'm celebrating, and what's my identity? And what am I? What is this? And so Danielle?

Donielle Prince 53:19
I think about it. It's interesting. So there's the meta question, which is that all states like in across the arc of time and across cultures in modern times. And they erase the histories that came before like erased that aren't. Don't show them in a good light, especially if they're trying to, you know, a lot of things that the United States does imperialistic things that the United States does around the world is for democracy. So they have to hide Of course, the Yeah. Any kind of issues that reveal that we haven't had a commitment to democracy. So Right. Yeah, thing like Presidents Day, I look at that as never having really been intended as a celebration from a heartfelt place, but it's a piece of propaganda.

Alison Cebulla 54:16
Thank you for saying that.

Donielle Prince 54:20
You know, and so then the degree to which you do that unpacking, then you make decisions about whether you are going to participate in the propaganda or not. So, um, I think if you recognize it as propaganda, then the answer is going to be automatic. Now, for people who really do see it as a celebration there. I can go out on what is maybe a limb but something I firmly believe. If you think of something like Presidents Day as a celebration, you don't really understand the country that you're living in, in the context you're living in globally. You just don't have an understanding of it. So And then another way to look at it would be, well, it's a day off, and I can barbecue with my family. And I don't really think about these other socio political contexts. But yeah, and there's a lot of, you know, there's been that whole thing where people, like you said, as there's been this racial awakening, and people have demanded that monuments, false monuments to the Confederacy for something like a Presidents Day, even a fourth of July, those are also monuments. There's not physical. And so

Anne Sherry 55:30
that's a really good point. Yeah,

Donielle Prince 55:33
they're all for the same purpose, too. To reinforce a sort of master narrative of the goodness of this state, yeah. And we're every country does it. So yeah, there's nothing unique about the United States, it's just that a lot of times the United States will frame itself as being more benevolent and more. Yeah, more virtuous than other countries. And it's not it does the same exact things. Right.

Alison Cebulla 56:07
But don't you think, I mean, the United States is somewhat particular in the scope of the institution of enslavement, the, you know, the span of time, the very foundation of this system of oppression. The number of people impacted. And in fact, you know, there were in, in countries like in Europe, you know, in the 1800s, early 1800s, you know, long before we abolished enslavement. Europe was like saying, like, oh, you know, what, actually, like, we're, we realize that this is, we're not going to do this anymore. But it took us so long, that I often think of the United States and our history here as being particularly terrible, and horrifying and horrific.

Donielle Prince 57:05
I think, um, you know, speaking as not a historian because I can just picture like some of my favorite stories during this call, and they probably correct half the things

Anne Sherry 57:16
they would pick our entire podcast, you pretty good else.

Donielle Prince 57:21
Given my understanding, such as such that it is, you know, when this when the trans I'm Trans Atlantic slave trade began. It's not so much that a Europe in the Scandinavian countries were not as terrible. It's just the way it played out. So okay. Some of these other countries, what they did is they went in they colonized.

Alison Cebulla 57:54
Right? And Africa. Right? Okay.

Donielle Prince 57:58
settlings, although they vary, and so, you know, there, they weren't as dependent on owning human beings and having their labor, their exploitation was of the people to exploit the natural resources of the continent. And that created the wealth for those. Yep. settlers in the United States, the ownership of human beings was part of the capital in like the actual utilizing people for the labor Yes, in part because as they viciously and brutally stole this nation from the indigenous inhabitants, they needed to know Europe had been in existence for a long time and had built its structures and, you know, its infrastructures such that they were and we're building upon them for the new ages. But this country needed to build that up. They never United States would have a whole different story if they hadn't had free labor to build the infrastructure of this stolen country. So that like there's and there's a lot of viciousness in the way that Europe treat has treated in an ongoing way really the the continent of Africa so they're just a terrible

Alison Cebulla 59:24
it's just not laid out differently. I appreciate that. I'm Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have so many

Anne Sherry 59:37
where do we go? Yes, well, just this so I mean, this may be well we'll just as we do jump here and there, but just this why can't we care I continue to be I don't know why I'm baffled humans suck in so many ways. You know, I mean, we're just like we're not nice people as Nadia bolts, whoever she So I guess you have you met us, we're terrible. Have you? People have you met people are fucking terrible? No, I don't know, you know, this, this sort of these qualities of white supremacy culture, this urgency a lot of times well meaning people will. I mean, I went through it, you know, I, I started to be like, holy shit, you know, we gotta fix this now. Now now now now, you know, but that just puts in a panic and adds the urgency. Oh, it adds urgency. So but yet that finding this balance of like, what is it to? How are we going to come into spaces and care? Do you know, because there's just so much triggering like critical race theory. You know, it's like I saw some headline today where the some jackasses like call it has a hotline that you can report if a school system is there. Yes. I mean, it's like, What the fuck? I don't know. I'm sure it's Texas, probably. But down on Texas today. But I mean, like shit like that. I mean, the level of it's like, what a it's like, I can kinda know or, you know, from a counseling perspective, it's trauma, it's fear. It's narratives that it's Fox News. It's so what do you think is gonna happen? What would be so bad about a little bit of fucking care for each other? You know, it feels better. Yeah, and that's too soft. Likely? I mean, I know it needs to be policy, but I'm just how to not just

Alison Cebulla 1:01:31
let me let me, let me ask us, let me ask a specific question, based on what I know about Danielle's work. So we've been doing a series at pieces connection about historical trauma in the United States, and we're telling kind of the real, some of the real stories that people don't get in eighth grade US history or 11th grade US history about, you know, we just did one Daniela just hosted one, there was amazing about, you know, some of the Japanese internment camps on the west coast during World War Two, that we definitely have covered a lot of the the racism against African Americans at different different regions of the United States. And so, from your work in aces adverse childhood experiences, what what do people need to understand about the the long term repercussions of racism in the United States?

Donielle Prince 1:02:30
There's a lot of ways to think about it. One of the things is where we work, Allison, we focus a lot on there, the fact that there's a connection between experiencing toxic stress which comes from trauma, and your physiological health, because if you're always having to be on high alert, because of you know, your brain has been wired that way, because experiences in your past, you're not, it actually has an impact on your health and measurable. And there's a lot of research on that now. And so I think that, like historical trauma is important to understand, because it is also having that same kind of impact on people who don't, because if you're not, just like we were saying in the beginning, if you're not addressing things, if you're not, if you're having feelings, that you're not taking a look at that you're not examining, that you're not processing and releasing, then that is going to, there's going to be a psychological consequences, and likely physiological consequences. If you think you're getting away with it, you think that that's why pushing it away, it's not gonna matter. But that's just not how the human mind and body work. So one important reason is to, to give people an opportunity to bring those experiences out and process them and understand sometimes how things that have impacted their families. secrets that have emerged, struggles that have happened, how they're connected. A lot of times, when even when you think about the individual, understanding why things happen, can go a long way towards your healing. So if you can be aware of that historical connection, then it can help you better understand and interrupt cycles, because you can say, well, you know, this cycle was set in motion because of these factors. I better understand that now. And now I can, you know, kind of think my way out my think think my way forward. With that context in mind. I don't just have to say kind of trapped. So and then when it comes to what we're calling historical trauma, and it's connected to racial trauma, yes. Which is President ongoing, and I often one of my most personal and visceral awarenesses of that is how my Alison's probably heard the story. My brother lived in Japan for six years. And he intended to go for three because he had this specific goal. He's he studied Aikido Aikido from the time he was kid. And he wanted to go and train at the dojo of one of the founders of Aikido students. And in the original Dojo where the founder cool, yeah, so you had this that was like his dream. So he went and did it. But then he, you know, there's a lot he wasn't trying to gain citizen citizenship in Japan. And there's a limitation to your lifestyle, if you're living there as non citizens. So he never intended to stay, he just was gonna go do this thing. And he's he ended up staying twice as long because every year when he thought about coming back, he thought about being harassed by police. And it was such a festival, that he just was like, I think I'll just stay here because I didn't, the dynamics don't, you know, we get locked into how we think about race in our society, but it changes depending on slip societies. So being in his body was not a trigger for harassment in Japan, right. So in the stress that that causes here, you I think when people are going through it, they get used to it sort of, but so much so that when he had been free of it, he couldn't bring him back and experience it again. And that was a specific thing. He talked about the police harassment, but there are many ways many indignities that people experience

Alison Cebulla 1:06:32
microaggressions Yeah. I just have this feeling where I'm like, don't come back. That's what like, my body's going no, no, I want you to feel so safe and happy and healthy. And I don't like, well, like in

Anne Sherry 1:06:47
World War Two as well. It was like lots of soldiers came back. And you know, there's been a totally, I don't know, if you're in a wartime situation, but then you come back and you don't. Black soldiers are not getting veterans aren't getting the, the what was the so you could buy a house or get education or you weren't able? I mean, just like we're left out veterans benefits. Yes. Yes. Like left out of building wealth.

Alison Cebulla 1:07:17
That's one thing. I wish more people I thought like house ism. Yeah. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:07:23
it is. And missing out on those generations of wealth creation. This, to me is sort of I mean, is part of the heart of reparations is like, you can't undo I mean, how do you catch up? Like, it's just like, all these veterans got to white veterans got to buy homes and certain amount in certain neighborhoods, and then, and then pass on that wealth and, and I

Alison Cebulla 1:07:48
devastating, I was just so so to pull in some Native American history threads here as well. So my grandfather, he's white, but just due to lots of trauma and circumstances, he was raised by an aunt who had married a Shoshone man, so he grew up with a Shoshone family in in the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming. And so that was an entry point for me, when my grandfather passed away in 2010. That was an entry point for me as a white and privileged person to look at some of the racial issues just because it was like, it's something that had happened to one of my family members. And there's a lot of trauma on that side of the family. He really struggled with alcoholism his whole life and was pretty terrible to all of us. And, and so looking into some of the issues on the Wind River Reservation, it's there's so much poverty, but when you actually dig deeper, and actually look at each historical record, it's it's really tragic, because we tend to think of history as being like really kind of long and vague, right? Like, years went by hundreds of years or right, like enslavement was a system that lasted 400 years or whatever. But when you actually look at the days and the weeks, and the months of some of these things, is like it was a person who made a decision on this day, that impacted you know, like, so when it comes I was just looking the other day at when River and the water policies. So what had happened was that they had taken a tribe, the Shoshone, who were are herders, but the US government wanted everyone to get into farming. But when they put them on this reservation, they didn't give them any water rights. And everyone else the white people in Wyoming were given the water rights, but at the same time, they were saying we don't want you to hurt any more, you have to farm. So there were the all these huge disputes, and they started to build the infrastructure to bring water onto this reservation. This I mean, this is essentially a very desert area. And um, and then they just abandon the project and you see that over and fucking over in the United States, you know, for and I really only know about Native American populations because I've researched it, where they'll start to build a bunch of homes for people. And then they're like, you know, the, like, let's enter my governorship changes, or the presidency changes or whatever the the regime changes, and they're like, Oh, we don't have any more money. And so on reservations, you just have half built homes or half built electricity projects or water projects. And it's, it just is so heartbreaking. And this is the part of history that I, we that we really need, you know,

Anne Sherry 1:10:30
well, I mean, it's a big, huge message, we don't really care, we don't really give a fuck, I think it's, it feels like and so that that is just a feature. Again, I'm on this, like this feature, not like, oh, it's something that we need to live into. It's like, no, it's a feature of this country, like you have people at the top want us all against each other. And they are they are creating, they have a certain amount of wealth, and you ain't getting any of it. Like it's not for you, you know, so I, I, we gotta keep coming together and not buy into this, like, polarization i What I heard was just binds it creates binds for people, you're in a bind, you're in a bind, you're in a bind, you know, it's like, why can't you pull it? Why can't you do better? It's like, well, I'm in a housing situation, and the schools are funded by no money. But the rich schools are funded, you know,

Alison Cebulla 1:11:24
it's, yeah, like that.

Anne Sherry 1:11:26
It's like, why you? Why can't you? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. It's, we're, this is a rough topic.

Alison Cebulla 1:11:36
I know I cute. Yeah, here. If you have a response or anything to get on a soap, yeah,

Donielle Prince 1:11:43
yes. We'll just it. I'm hearing like the frustration. And it's, it's exhausting to have to dance and eyes for your liberation. But it's also the only choice like, exactly, it is. You know, I've heard people use the term the care revolution, the love Revolution, when Bell Hooks recently passed, people posted a lot of her quotes, she has the book about love. And she was really talking about, I see her as an extremely brilliant thinker. And the fact that she, of all the analysis that she's done on all these systems for so many years, going way back probably before the 70s. But especially the 70s, a lot of women of color, and black feminists in particular, were doing a lot of analysis of the system. And so with all of that incisive analysis, the fact that her later conclusions are that love, we need Yes, yes, I would I trace that, as is her coming to the point that you were just articulating and like, we can't do any of this, all of this analysis, we can't do any of it. If we don't care about each other enough. We actually want better for ourselves and for each other. So then we will do the things that are unnecessary. Yeah. So I see that as a really a powerful teaching, that I don't think we've all we've I think we still think we have to anger our way through getting the results. And yeah, the anger definitely serves a person purposes is necessary, so we can recognize what's wrong. But I think it's gonna end up being we have to have, we do have to figure out how do we care about each other, and kind of reject, you know, the state that we live in, and I think is probably there's probably no country that could describe itself differently. The state is not organized for our best interests. And so we need to figure that out and be collective with each other and figure out how to organize for our best interests in that let the state kind of dictate what we we value or care about, and, and, you know, a lot of really important human rights, fights as you can describe as human rights because they might take a different form they might be for civil rights might be for environmental justice, but they're long term bites, like That's right. You don't want cycle in the legislature, working on X ray policy that you're passionate about. Yeah. Boom, now everybody sees the light war, like people will do as much as they feel like they have to and then that like what you're saying, Allison, then they'll abandon it and then it can wear you out if you're on the other side. Yeah, the trick is not to get worn out somehow.

Anne Sherry 1:14:38
Yes. How do you i Well, this from my big awakening really was I have to be in community and really the only and I growing up latchkey I was like, I don't like people. I don't know how to be in community. Nobody gives a shit about us that feels like you know, like, trans. I call them transactional childhoods you know, you got clothing, food and And so but no care. So you start entering these really intense spaces of like learning about how traumatized our culture really is. And if you do not have a community to hold you, and where, who's who's interested in the work and can kind of like the firm with you or call you in or you know, but not shame you because you get shamed so quickly, and you're like, I'm out of here, we're done. That's it.

Alison Cebulla 1:15:26
And like, because yeah, racial, yeah, talking about racial issues is been, it's, I guess, it's probably been designed that way to, you know, like, Oh, don't don't, because you'll get embarrassed or whatever. And I've, I would say, I wanted to acknowledge the fact of how privileged and, and I are as white women, because for us, if we go, Oh, I'm tired of these issues, at any point, we can just walk away and just pretend they don't exist, because they don't for us, we get to enjoy the privileges of being white. Whereas for our guests on y'all, or you know, other people, black indigenous, other people of minorities in the United States, they don't have that choice that the stress is going to be there, whether you want to deal with it or not. So I just really want to acknowledge that. But for those of us who do choose to engage in this work, it's been made really hot, you know, that it's like if you say one wrong thing, or you know, that I really think almost like you'll get attacked by both the left and the right sometimes. And and so am like I was I have been really inspired by your work with your, your really liberal UCC church to do these restorative justice work groups. And it's been an honor and privilege for me to get some of Danielle's teachings because I'm in the the workgroup that what is, what is it called? What do we call the workgroup is this race and equity workgroup race and equity and Daniela leads on Thursdays, and I've learned so much. And so like, but for me, it's like, Daniela and I are directly employed in the field of sort of, you know, justice, um, which there's a lot of equity issues that come up when you work on trauma prevention. And then And for you, it's through your church, I'm sort of wondering, and maybe this is a question for all of us, or whatever. But Danielle, and Anne, like, we're like, if someone's listening, and they want to start doing this work, or like, re educating themselves on American history, or showing up and doing a work group? What, what do you what do you see what can people do?

Donielle Prince 1:17:41
Is so it's kind of it is it is difficult, I wanted to just speak to the part about how uncomfortable it can be to put yourself out there and be wrong. Yeah, say that. You got to embrace it. And if you have a place where people just have zero tolerance, and that's probably not going to be a good space for you. Yeah, but you also have to be sometimes what tolerance looks like is people pushing back on the things that you say, I'm doing wrong. And I know people can do this, because I've had that experience with, like growing up in a black Pentecostal church that was homophobic, something that once I was at, went to college, I learned new things, I no longer participate in that church, because a lot of the values there are also a little bit Messiah. I say, a little bit misogynistic, but you know, a lot of Christianity is wholly misogynistic. So I think that so I had been raised with some beliefs that I needed to shed. And when I in college, fortunately, that was part of the curriculum to try to help. There was a multicultural requirement, there was a whole orientation about things that we accept and don't accept. And that was a good level setting. But that wasn't enough. And so then I went on in life, and I had encounters where I was saying the wrong thing I was being I thought of myself as a good person, but I heard someone and they felt that the things that I was saying, were either homophobic or transphobic, or people were trying to teach me new things. And I was resisting learning the new thing. And I had to do a lot of inner work to stop being hurtful. And to make that right commitment, not my commitment is people not hurting my feelings. When I'm just learning. I had to say, like, I wanted to stop causing the harm. So I'm, yeah, I'm gonna take it. And sometimes people are yelling at me. And I did do something wrong. And I didn't know but what I'm taking away from it is I'm going to, I'm going to learn I'm going to I'm going to do better. So I had to go through that. And I was not broken by it. I actually, yeah. And I did better and I became smarter. And I went and did my own reading. And I was like, Oh, that's right. I get I get how I ended up with these kinds of beliefs and totally Yeah, that was able to shed them and still and know that I will continue to learn and can continue to make mistakes and that's okay. I'm not gonna. I'm not that's not gonna make me leave the work,

Anne Sherry 1:20:04
right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think for my self was certainly the church opened my eyes,

Alison Cebulla 1:20:13
it was almost like it was the right term, the right of the church I

Anne Sherry 1:20:17
know. And I mean, I was I grew up in a Democrat family who didn't go to church, we were weird. In the south, my parents were sort of intellectuals or you get asked all the time, what church do you go to blah, blah, blah. And just that there was a white churches and black churches, you know, I was, it was just this, it was so odd to me, the South just felt so odd. And so I left to a nice white enclave like Boulder. And I was like, Oh, my body feels so much better here, you know, because I think I was in a state of tension coming from a family that purported to be aware, and we weren't, you know, like, thinks all kinds of things were happening. And it was, don't talk about it, don't talk about it, you know, especially, it's like, my friend, my friend couldn't come to my pool. You know, my black friend, I was like, I'm gonna invite someone so to the pool. My mom was like, and I just knew not to go any further with that. But like, it was a pool in the South that was private. And, you know, it wasn't like a Century Club. Who would have been in the 70s? It would have been late like 7879 it wasn't, it wasn't No, it just all the secrets. So anyways, I what I learned is if we're talking about race, Be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, you know. So I took off. And then once I came back to the south, I was like, something that's not right. You know, I just knew it wasn't right. But it didn't make any sense to me, in a lot of ways. But, but my what I needed to hating communities, for the most part, I just don't like, oh, I don't feel like I belong in them. Yeah, but I had to put myself out there. And then I also have a group of what we call white ladies, who are, you know, we're reading resumes book, but it was a place where we could go and say, I'm a, you know, I'm a fuckup, I did this thing. And you could like, kind of, like, have a place where you could kind of shake off what you did and kind of like or or or wanted to do, or I gotta check this out or, and it's an it's it was so that we wouldn't we wanted to reduce the harm we were doing but you need a place to talk about it to kind of, oh, I need it. And it was like once it's it's almost like this throughput that needed to happen I need but if you stay in this tense place around talking about race, yeah, you're you will, you will wear yourself out, you'll start to hate it, you'll start to join like yeah, what are all these people talking? Ooh, why do we need to be doing those everybody's pull themselves up by their bootstraps? You'll

Alison Cebulla 1:22:53
like, head over

Anne Sherry 1:22:54
into like, those places, you know, so it's, it's kinda it's slow, tender work. Brave work. You know, this, we always tried to create we talked about you know, not brave, we want brave spaces. You can't always have a safe space. We're like, but I need a safe space. But like, so what do you need to have a brave space is like, I haven't. I'm not. Yeah, like, I gotta have I gotta know stuff. I gotta read. I gotta be committed to it. You know? Don't you don't have to be an all fire hurry about it. I did that. And I wound up on antidepressants. Yeah, I mean, I was so freaked out by how horrible the history I didn't get I had a fire hose of it. So don't do a fire hose just you know, read one book and digest it and listen, and just. Yeah, is what I find a very liberal church that has,

Donielle Prince 1:23:48
yeah, you also needed you just need a disposition. And I think that in our individualistic society, yes. You need a disposition towards it's okay to be wrong, so that you can learn. And you don't have that in our society, there's a there's a lot of pressure, especially in white supremacy culture to be right to be perfect to be as good even though our site is very moral. You're supposed to be this. Whatever this idea of being moral, it's very important that you are good, if you can abandon that and recognize that none of us are good. And we're all thriving. And we're all you know, hopefully we're on a journey like to towards becoming more loving and caring. Yeah, but you're, you're in process. So I think the more you can, I think people of color and the experiences are going to, there's going to be quite a range, but have not been permitted into this false notion of perfection because you're already imperfect because you're not white. So you already have a little bit more of a muscle that can tolerate it You're not perfect as a human and you're still worthy of love and care, even if you're not perfect. You need that disposition in order to learn because you cannot learn if you have to be perfect because you can't you can't reveal that you don't know. You know, but when you can win, you can win when you're comfortable with Yeah, I'm wrong. Oh, man, that stuff's

Anne Sherry 1:25:23
so free to be wrong. So like, my bad, my bad, like, my bad, you know, but I mean, perfection is so exploited. It is one of our industriousness and perfection, like when you have like emotional neglect trauma, which this caught. Well, let's just call it this. If you live in America, you are emotionally neglected. Like, I don't care how good and ghastly, I don't care. I don't care what family you grew up in this what you when you look out, and you can just drive by homeless people and be like, Oh, he's going to use that money for drugs. Like, like, if that's your thought, rather than like, What the fuck? Why somebody? Why, why? Why do we let people walk around like this? And like, why aren't we? Why isn't that our priority? Rather than like, I don't know, like, bigger hotels downtown, you know. So

Alison Cebulla 1:26:17
I mean, I really coming back to the emotional neglect, I actually think that I was only able to take in and actually feel in my body, the impact of racial trauma in the way that I'm able to, I'm never able to understand say your particular pain Daniela or, or, you know, any one particular racial experience, but I couldn't, I couldn't access it at all, at all, until I had done my own trauma work. And once I had done my own trauma work, I could, I actually had the ability to feel feelings, because I had to see that things that had happened in my life were hurting. It was like I closed off, there was no, there was no talk of emotions in my childhood, right? There was no like, Oh, are you feeling disappointed? Are you feeling embarrassed? Are you feeling angry, it just didn't happen. So I grew up to be an adult that just didn't have any emotions. And, you know, I ended up using substances, and kind of finding these like little addictions, exercise, sugar, all these things. And when I finally had a year where I just broke down, got the healing I needed, got the therapy started to look at my own wounds, all the sudden it was like, Yeah, people are wounded out there. But it was like, I couldn't do it without my own healing work. And I'm wondering if you could speak to that

Donielle Prince 1:27:37
at all. Um, it's an interesting idea, like what you're raising, like, it sort of goes deeper than the point that I was making. Like, maybe people don't have that disposition for more reasons than just the will, more reasons than sort of fear of learning what you didn't learn, like, it might be a lot deeper. Like, if you could do a study, it might be people who are more detached from the motions, which, despite the overall flaws of the society, people are going to be in different places along a continuum. So maybe we will find that people who are who have who have been kept whole for essentially for their during their childhoods are more open minded than people who had a more able to, like go into this process. So I think that's a that's really fruitful to dig into, like, I don't like I haven't

Anne Sherry 1:28:30
research that

Alison Cebulla 1:28:33
you do the ACES for like, carrying, you know, there was that study at Yale that that was published right after Trump got elected I'm sure you guys remember because it was big in the news where they made people feel safe. And they asked them about what you know, different things that revealed whether they had conservative or more progressive ideas on different topics. And just by setting up a pre survey, and helping the person visualize feeling safe, people would tend to be a little more liberal and progressive. Feel safe before you can feel comfortable to change. Right and so with the like the amount of trauma in the US that people Black White, everybody you know, indigenous there's so much that it kind of like, this is what you're saying and and like closes us off.

Anne Sherry 1:29:22
Yeah. Well, and this is where I think that the trauma the individual trauma work is starting to meet like when justice work, you know, because it's like if you you start to feel stuff, you know, and if you don't like if you don't find my grandmother's hands is all about that. I mean, resume minute comes a he's a therapist, you know, and he wrote this pretty wonderful how to book actually to say that you you are going to feel stuff and movements maybe haven't gained as much traction because people actually aren't working it through their bodies if we don't get in body. If you're in body You will not be able to stand for the shit that's out there. When we live up at White people learn to live up here I'm pointing to neck and above, you know, we don't know, what's in our bodies, and it just perpetuates a lot of crap. You know, just well, what am I gonna do? It's, you know, it's the system, you know, well, and just you're you're more susceptible, I think, to just narratives of bullshit. But if you're in your body, the problems become real, and you can't not look at them. You can't not and pass that on to your children. My God, like that would be a good the next generation coming up. I think they actually give a shit about each other. I think they aren't like that. I don't think they the bubbles and stuff. They're like,

Alison Cebulla 1:30:46
you know, I know that. Yeah. But I segue to just to wrap up with Danielle, and if you have any comments on what we just said, but I was I wanted to ask you what you feel hopeful about?

Anne Sherry 1:30:57
Yes. Like, we need some hope in the world.

Donielle Prince 1:31:03
I think what you're just saying, and I hope that is, it's the case, like, I do know that there is evidence that the more we get out of our segregation, so that we're spending more time. So like, we're trying to diversify workplaces, and there was the whole attempt to desegregate schools, which only had marginal success, because people managed to resegregate without it being an official policy. But the more time people spend with people who are just, it's really you're spending time with people, so you're getting to know them, but you spend time with people who are different from you and your foot, when you can bring that friend to the pool. You know, the more that happens, people do have less acceptance of because they're, you know, their friends, you're talking about people that they actually care about, and they're and they have less, they have less tolerance for the propaganda. So that's part of it. It's not the whole solution, it gets a little more complicated, because then who gets to define which which of those cultures that come together who gets to define what the cultural new cultural norm is, and there's still you have to do more, there has to be more political analysis, and that to make sure you don't just reinforce white supremacy for everyone. Interesting, but the but the carrying Does, does increase. So I think if the youth are having more opportunities to finally break through that constant segregation, which I'm not clear, like I would really need to look at the, or have someone who did the research tells me because I'm not going to do the research. Is that really, really changing? Because my impression is that we're still pretty segregated. So yes, are able to spend more time this, a lot of this is going to kind of melt on its own. Although I just want to emphasize, I won't just mouse one as long because I do the political analysis, and you've got to change the policies, and you have to do the actual work. But your motivation to do it will start to change when you actually have people you care about who are all the people.

Alison Cebulla 1:33:16
Yeah, that's right. That was so well. Sad. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:33:20
Bryan Stevenson, who was a big funder, or like, I think the Equal Justice Initiative. I mean,

Donielle Prince 1:33:29
he was able to do that after he got his MacArthur Genius Award, he started EJ, EJ, or it might have existed Yeah. To that new level that we

Anne Sherry 1:33:38
Yes, that's Yeah. And he's big on. He's like, proximity is what's going to help. That yeah, you must put yourself with Yes, yes. Because I think just what you said, I'm just restating, just like, you will care if you are with each other, we care about each other. That's the quote from Mother Teresa said, The problem with us. We forget that we belong to each other, which I just love that quote so much, you know, that. And I think that's been structurally done. Don't care about each other. We make a lot of money if you don't care about each other, you know, and for why it's like, why do you want gotta sucks I think to like, live in this top of a pyramid or whatever it is, like, it's more fun to be with each other. It actually is,

Donielle Prince 1:34:28
you have to constantly protect that. Yes, it definitely change your personality when you have to constantly defend it from people who might revoke it at any moment. That's right. I visited Cape Town, South Africa, and that is, that's a whole conversation in and of itself. Wow. The analogies we can and can't make to that situation. But that kind of attitude is visceral, because the you know, all of the nicest stuff, neighborhoods. and everything is white people have. And even though they got rid of apartheid, it's still segregated. And so you go to these nice neighborhoods, there's bars everywhere, there's gates, there's electric, like, you'll electric cutable. Like if you tried to jump the gate, it would electrocute you. And all these bars and all this, because there's so much fear that one day the people are going to say, I'm tired of being in poverty, and no one people aren't actually doing that. So it's in the heads of the people who are hoarding totally idea in this fear of their own behaviors. They're really afraid of their own AI. That's right. I mean, that's a prison.

Anne Sherry 1:35:42
I mean, like, that sounds like

Alison Cebulla 1:35:43
No, I, I read the book Jack jackpot. I've told I think I brought it up before I read this book, I highly, highly recommend this jackpot. I know, I'm sorry. And I listen to the audiobook. It's amazing, but it's looking at cultural wealth. I love it. I love it. Yeah, we're obsessed with not just not just having enough, we want millions and billions we are obsessed, and

Anne Sherry 1:36:07
shut out interviews, people

Alison Cebulla 1:36:09
who have all this wealth and money. And guess what, they are so miserable, because they have to protect it. And so they have to, they have to physically literally walled themselves off from poor people who want to steal it. And they have to set up trust funds, and upon trust funds, and they have to hire whole teams of financial advisors. And then guess what, no one trusts them anymore. And they don't trust anyone else anymore. It's like that HBO show succession. Where because there's so much money in play, relationships aren't real anymore. Because people are just trying to get your money. And if you give money to someone, then all of a sudden, they just see you as someone who gives them money and not as a caring person. But if you don't give them money, now you have someone who's bitter at you. And this book changed the way I look at money. I was like, I do not have any way we gave it away. Be ultra wealthy. We don't know. It's, it's misery making. So okay, so just we've kept you so long, Danielle,

Anne Sherry 1:37:11
thank you so much.

Alison Cebulla 1:37:12
I don't want to end the episode without mentioning that it's, it's black history month this month. Which is such a weird thing. Because it's like, um, we should be celebrating black history just as much as any other kind of history, it should just be integrated into everything that we do.

Anne Sherry 1:37:30
I mean, is there some point it'll be called history? Or? Yeah, I don't know. Like, yeah. Okay, well, stay in there. I want to just say to people do not I love what you said, Daniela, it is a long, this, you can't have a one night stand with this. It is you are in a long term relationship over generations. So settle in, it is very satisfying to to there are many benefits for hanging in there with a with a long term partner. You know, you do get more comfortable, you can joke together more you can take the piss out of each other more. So don't have a one night stand with this. Like really? Just, it's it's do this, you know, yeah. And go slow. Take care of yourself, but stay in it and find people to support you, you know, so you don't have to do at all.

Alison Cebulla 1:38:29
Any final. Anything else you want to add?

Donielle Prince 1:38:33
Um, no, it's been a great conversation. I know, you were asking. You said you want to acknowledge Black History Month, which, you know, we're evolving. So yeah, I think we'll get we'll get to the point where we don't just set aside specific times. But, you know, there are people who fought to have this and so I also want to thank you for saying that.

Alison Cebulla 1:38:56
Yeah. I mean, like, I think March is Women's History Month.

Donielle Prince 1:39:03
We think you're right, half of

Alison Cebulla 1:39:05
all humans. You get a month

Donielle Prince 1:39:10
well, then by by definition, the other month, our man's man's world

Anne Sherry 1:39:22
there is a song maybe maybe we can play that. Yeah. Going out Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:39:30
So I really appreciate you helping us see some of the different complexities and different things that we need to be thinking about to stay in conversation and and there's a lot of nuance and I just I just thank you for your your expert help on these these topics that can feel really weighty for people to try and jump into and thank you for encouraging folks like just jump in and it's gonna be kind of messy and hard, but just do it. It's worth it. So thank you, Danielle. Yeah, Yes,

Donielle Prince 1:40:00
fun to talk to

Anne Sherry 1:40:06
you are two.

Alison Cebulla 1:40:07
Yeah. So okay, well see you I work side by

Unknown Speaker 1:40:16
side

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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