Episode 1: Introduction to Latchkey Urchins & Friends

Episode Notes
Written By

Our monthly zoom hangouts during the COVID-19 pandemic morphed into this podcast. We are a therapist and a childhood trauma community health worker trying to bring some lightness and humor to the dark topic of childhood neglect. Come fill the void with us.

References & Resources:

Transcript:

Alison Cebulla 0:06
Hi. Welcome to our brand new podcast. My name is Alison Cebulla. And

Anne Sherry 0:15
that's how you say a name that I never knew how to pronounce your last name you just Allison,

Alison Cebulla 0:21
you know, and a lot of people are really uptight about it but anyway that anyone wants to say it is fine with me because we didn't even say it the way that it said and it's a Polish last name. It means onion and which is great because I love crying.

Anne Sherry 0:36
That's a therapy name.

Alison Cebulla 0:37
Yeah. Okay.

Anne Sherry 0:41
Well, my name is Anne Sherry, my often get called Sherry, they just dropped the an out so, but that's a that I inherited that from getting married. And yeah, welcome to our podcasts. We're finally here. Slapping

Alison Cebulla 1:00
it's happening. So we, we have been talking about about doing this for many, many months. And, and and I have been friends since 2005. I don't even know what that math is. Six. I

Anne Sherry 1:15
sure.

Alison Cebulla 1:17
Yeah.

Anne Sherry 1:19
Really? 2005. That's right. When I moved to Asheville, 16 years. Okay,

Alison Cebulla 1:23
great. Okay. It's right when I moved to Asheville, North Carolina. So, um, so Anna and I both work in the field of mental health. I work in Child Trauma prevention, and

Anne Sherry 1:36
you ask him what I do. Yeah. I am a internal family systems based therapist in Asheville, Asheville. I've been doing that since 2005. With a license Yeah, I graduated in two. No, 2007 got my master's degree, so.

Alison Cebulla 1:56
And so I moved to Asheville, North Carolina in August of 2005. And moved in with with Ayaan, she had a room for rent. That's how we met. And the thing was, is that I had just gotten out of rehab for my meth addiction. And did you tell me that did I know that I positive? I told you okay, I wouldn't have cared. You know, you didn't? You're like, great. Let's do this. And good.

Anne Sherry 2:25
You sound perfect. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 2:28
And so but coincidentally, or maybe, I don't know, maybe you were like, Great this project, because you were just starting school to be a drug therapist. Remember, that?

Anne Sherry 2:39
was sort of the first passion trying to understand how whatever the shit show I grew up in with an older brother, who

Alison Cebulla 2:47
were there drugs in your childhood? Were that well, it was the

Anne Sherry 2:52
70s. Who knew? Like what babysitter came with high on acid to take care of us. It was pretty

Alison Cebulla 2:58
babysitter horror story. They

Anne Sherry 3:00
were up. So I mean, just the seven days is a drug as a child, I they, which I think we'll get into. Yeah, quite a bit like what it is to you grew up in the I mean, we're, what, 1015 years?

Alison Cebulla 3:16
15 years apart? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. So I was born in 84. I was born in 68. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And, um, but we realized that we had some some overlap in our childhoods. Just in terms of like, I'm almost

Anne Sherry 3:34
your parents age. Actually. I remember meeting your dad.

Alison Cebulla 3:38
Yeah. Well, my eyes were so young. They were so they were born. Yeah. So, like, my parents now are like around the age of 60.

Anne Sherry 3:49
Okay. One of my parents is deceased, and the other ones 83. But he, they were same age. So

Alison Cebulla 3:55
she and my grandparents are in their 80s. So that's so that's so interesting. Yeah. So, you know, kind of when, when will we'll be digging into different Child Trauma, child neglect topics here on the podcast. It was interesting that I mean, even though you're older than I am, you're, well, let's see, but you're Oh, okay. So it does, it does put you in the same same kind of category as my parents to have to have your parents and my grandparents were the same age.

Anne Sherry 4:27
Right? Right. And my parents, but I've discovered the way they grew up. They're like a generation older than my peers because they grew up pretty, very, very poor in Northern Alabama with no electricity, no running water. That is a trip. It is such a trip. They were youngest of 10 and seven, and so neglect abound. Yeah, I'm sure. But I just thought every I didn't think anybody any of my peers parents grew up with electricity. in running water, it was it was a lot later.

Alison Cebulla 5:04
So that's, you know, in because I hear that when I hear about my friend's parents who grew up in the South. Yeah. So that's those are the stories I hear.

Anne Sherry 5:14
I'm sure it was more. I mean, my parents were born in 38. I'm sure it was more prevalent in the south and other places. But then when I hear, I don't know, when I hear the story, the cities of the South, it was it was the rule was rule and the cities probably were. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna have a history subject. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 5:37
So my one of my grandparents, well, once one side of my family, my grandparents are both southern. So my my mom's mom is from North Carolina, near near Asheville. And, although I think when I've asked her about Asheville because she grew up in Lenore, which is near hickory, she's like, Oh, that, you know, those hillbillies or whatever. Like, it's so funny. Like, the stigma is still there, you know, like a different world. It's just an hour away. And it's like, yeah,

Anne Sherry 6:05
well, it's like, yeah, Asheville. Was this like haven for wealthy folks to come and recuperate from tuberculosis or something, but I think that it still has the Appalachian, right? Yes. side of it. Exactly. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 6:18
And then my mom's dad was born in Texas, but raised in Wyoming. And then, um, that's a whole that's like a whole episode about because he grew up on a on a Native American reservation. And, yeah, so well, we'll, we'll get there.

Anne Sherry 6:33
Topics galore. Okay. I think we get we get ahead of ourselves. I told you not to follow my tangential. Not there's one on the Enneagram Yes. Yeah, you got to keep us. You gotta keep us aligned. We have Enneagram. Two, that'll be

Alison Cebulla 6:50
that'll be. That'll be an episode. Yeah. Yeah, the purpose. We're just trying to define what it is we're doing today. And some of them are family backgrounds. You know, and so because our family backgrounds influence who we are. And so my other set of grandparents are from Montana, both my parents grew up in Montana, and that, you know, kind of comes with its own particular cultural influences, especially to me, especially when it comes to physical neglect. Like people don't hug, you know, and like,

Anne Sherry 7:20
Oh, no.

Alison Cebulla 7:23
So but for you, everyone's from everybody about a spring in the South.

Anne Sherry 7:27
My parents knew each other in high school. I don't know they got married 2825. Again, I'm the youngest of 10. On my mom's side, youngest of seven. And then there were 12 years between my dad and his next sibling. So he kind of grew up sort of that Adler only child, because the family the family was done. So he was sort of, I don't know, are they to have birth control? So both of my parents, both of my parents, parents, so my grandparents had them when they were in their 40s.

Alison Cebulla 8:05
Like, why?

Anne Sherry 8:08
Well, what the? I know, isn't that crazy that I have and then you remember, I have a child at 44 I cannot believe you had a child if I can either. I keep Yeah, I can either. Little, little guys only nine. So it's amazing. Yeah, we'll see what happens with that. Poor kid, he's gotta like do mom and dad's. What do you call it? Midlife crisis? Like we're traveling to Europe? In Europe? Yeah. He's got to come along with us. So he's getting a strange childhood that I'm sure he'll is about. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 8:45
I hope so. I absolutely hate those like that term midlife crisis. Because when am I not having a crisis?

Anne Sherry 8:52
Well, this, I wrote that down as like, when I was sort of my notes. I was like, well, well, sure. But there is something you're not quite here yet. When you get to that 50. And then you're looking at the rest of it. I am curious about what shows up around that time.

Alison Cebulla 9:08
But I'm having my own crisis, which I'm sure you had at my age. I'm 36 which is like, oh my god, like if I want to have kids, I gotta have them because you're I mean, you. Yeah, but I was baby is a miracle baby. That's like, a

Anne Sherry 9:21
total miracle miracle. Yes. And the science part of that didn't work. He actually showed up after we gave up trying so so just yeah, interesting to go through all that grief process and then then you get something after letting go. I don't know. So, where were we? So another tangent.

Alison Cebulla 9:50
Um, uh, basically, I just want to share our inspiration for starting this podcast, which is that we the pandemic The pandemic started a year ago. You and I decided let's let's have a zoom call, you know, like we're on connect every month. Yeah, we got along really well back left a lot.

Anne Sherry 10:12
Yeah a lot. Yep.

Alison Cebulla 10:14
And we thought okay, let's let's get back in touch and and we you know we both work in the same area and we both were profoundly impacted by teachings on childhood emotional neglect. And so then I then don't forget this piece. You started doing the funniest posts on Facebook like okay, latch fellow latchkey kids.

Anne Sherry 10:37
Oh, yes. Yeah, the breakfast i That's the right. That's right. I gotta I gotta collect all those stories. I was. I think that you know, there was a lot going on about Gen Xers being very comfortable with the pandemic, right? Right. Like we don't expect anything, you know, not having anywhere to go being bored is just like so fine on my nervous system, and it must have resonated with Gen Xers or those that came home without parents generally or parents that gave a shit. So, I don't know if that I guess latchkey started in the 70s with moms going back to work. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But you know, also having this anyways, so having my child too and sort of seeing the ages of I would never let him go sell Girl Scout cookies by himself in first grade, like half a mile from home. I'm like, I'm out you know, I gotta go meet my quota. So and yeah, so that kind of I just started doing this like kind of bet that did have an impact or areas Yeah, about what that was and had been in my own personal work for several years now really getting that this was a thing childhood emotional neglect, and didn't feel like it was being written about that much or discussed. It was like the secret thing you had to talk about because for the most part you seem I'm interested in for the most part you we develop a lot of strategies we have good managers we become productive we become perfectionist we become it looks good on the surface. But it's like a just it's like a shit show back in there. And there's a lot of shame, a lot of emotions and you try to go work it out and therapy but to but it's seemed all in service of become looking fine in the world. I'm good. I'm good. It was just where do I go to look good and fine and functional. But there is that level of like, this empty in there. Or if I go underneath the emptiness It's shame that will annihilate me is sort of how it feels.

Alison Cebulla 13:08
Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And we've talked about this, in our conversations that I got, I got like latchkey parenting light, right? Yes. You grew up in the 70s. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. And so you you had like full latchkey, then by the 80s. Parents were like, Ah, maybe, God, maybe we need to adjust this but still have the effects of both both parents working? Yes. No, there's no, you no required paid parental leave in the US. There's no like high quality, low cost. Childcare. So if you have two working parents like, I mean, it can get real

Anne Sherry 13:49
dark. Yeah, I'm wondering if the panel this is interesting, like this pandemic, we may. I wonder if we're gonna produce another generation of children that Felts? Well, it's one year, but I have no idea how parent working parents or single parents were managing children during this year. It's like a devastating.

Alison Cebulla 14:12
Well, I think a lot of women have just put their careers on hold, which to me is devastating. You know, one of my best girlfriends who you met Laura, you know, she has three kids. She had just gone back to work after taking, you know, some years off to have three kids. And then when the pandemic hit, it's like, well, whose job comes first? Well, her husband makes more, you know, so Okay, so someone has to take care of the kids at home, somebody has to teach them school, you know, someone has to make sure they get on their zoom school chat. So it's not going to be her she doesn't make enough money to support you know, the whole family and his friend dies. And that's just been devastating to watch.

Anne Sherry 14:51
Yeah, I think likely. I don't know. It was like a big shot of neglect. We realized how neglectful this entire Our nation is that yeah, just really feeling that a great deal of it at top levels just don't give a shit about people. No, I think we knew that. But I think it like, brought it has it in great relief now that we really see that it's actually policies that don't give a shit or lack of policies? Absolutely.

Alison Cebulla 15:23
And I've really been, I think we're all ready to hear these teachings, which is why we think this podcast is relevant right now is like, we're right. We're ready to talk about it. Or, you know, and I've been digging into a lot of different materials about that, you know, kind of give us a different history of the United States. So the one that I just read was white trash, the history of class in America retelling the history of class in America, because

Anne Sherry 15:51
girl, I haven't read that. I got to get that one. Okay, I know you have my source on I feel like I tend to, like balance out with just straight up. Podcast, the murder podcast. Yeah. They're just talking shit podcast. Yeah. But

Alison Cebulla 16:09
well, the the podcast that I that's like the same topic that I love is pitchfork economics. You've been listening to some of those

Anne Sherry 16:15
I have. Yep. That's another challenge every time. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. It is so good. It's really Yeah, highly recommend that one.

Alison Cebulla 16:25
But just about, you know, like, sort of the America that we're taught in our history classes growing up is not the real America that really exists. You know, and the reality is that our country was founded by people who wanted to make as much money as possible, dehumanizing others as much as possible. And you know, if you read Can you read caste, though? Isabel? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so white trash is really sort of like, almost like the white version, you know. And I really think, you know, land barons are people who already had power and money. You know, as they settled America, they wanted to take advantage of whoever they possibly could, you know, Africans, poor white people from England and Ireland, like whoever they could just take advantage of. And so that's why white trash was really enlightening. And, and we still see the effects of that today. So, you know, if you haven't really studied history, you're not understanding how literally, the very foundation of our country is about dehumanization and neglect.

Anne Sherry 17:26
Yes. Well, that's something to just you know, is new ish to bring into the therapy room, like the individual therapy room, you know, people are showing up being like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? Why can I do this? Like, okay, I'm gonna, and I did therapy like that for years, I think but without, again, talking about the historical perspective and the number of levels that like, we're trying to fix ourselves to operate in a toxic culture, you know, so I regularly bring in, wait a minute, let's take a look at what all the values of this culture is that we're trying to exist in and, and that hopelessness often of you know, coming to those important places of healing, vulnerability, finding, I don't know, internal connection, feeling more loving, and then you head out into the world. And it's like, you know, getting y'all like, gushy and then it's like, go back to that narcissistic relationship, you know, so and just, you know, surviving the Trump years. Yeah, I know. That'll be and he's just a natural out. Yeah, yes. Now there's no way I think what we're coming to here is this shit is in everything, you know, like there's a you know, and I must the developmental healing of this is there is a lot of like, a fucking hate my parents, you know, parts of me that do. And then I'm like, holy shit. We're all caught in these nightmare systems where there's not a basis of love in this

Alison Cebulla 19:07
exactly. It's it's really, it's really the culture and I think that just hating your parents is a trap. I think it's a trap. Yeah, I you know, that kind of for me started when I read the drama of the gifted child by Alice Miller, which to me is like the Bible, the the childhood emotional copy of it on

Anne Sherry 19:27
my show, I will be arranged. To go. Yep.

Alison Cebulla 19:34
And you know, Alice Miller, I think she does an amazing job. And I love how angry she gets her parents like I love it. She's so rageful she talks about how in one of her other books, that I think it's the fourth commandment about obeying your parents, you know, how that set up, you know, basically abusive parenting and she just rails she's just like, you don't have to like your parents. You don't have to respect your parents because she's like, you have to cut that cord. You can't just go around living your life in a that, you know, all those coping strategies that he learned, like, figure out how to make it so that it seemed like the abuse that we were getting was love, you know, like and then we and then we're just going around in the hay so she peels all that back but it's like you can't stay in that place. No, it's

Anne Sherry 20:19
on the way of healing and yeah, that model I was talking about internal family systems which I think a fair number of people would know about it. We could put a link in our don't we have show notes?

Alison Cebulla 20:32
Yes. Oh, yeah, we wouldn't Well, yeah.

Anne Sherry 20:35
Anyways, yeah, but it is important. It's just it's not it's on the we'll do an episode on this as well but grief the the important role of grief because that is the way to let go and transcend. I think some of those hurts that developmentally. You got to return to those places. You know, I have people coming in there. I don't want to do all that inner child shit, it doesn't work. It doesn't work and I'm like, I don't know how else we got little we got experiences we got our nervous system stuck in the past. I think what's happened is a lot of emoting without a plan to get that the nervous system in contact with something that's more general can heal from the present moment. I mean, there's a statement he the treatment for trauma is safety so until those parts feel safe seen heard understood, you'll just there is a way you keep going back to that and looking for sort of redemption, right yeah. Which keeps you kind of stuck so but it's a tough I think people need to be prepared sometimes to stay in those areas for a while. You know, childhood is long, the child brain, like art, my life is flying at this stage, but from zero to high school is like in my years. That's like eons like you're in it for a long

Alison Cebulla 22:06
time. It felt that way too. Do you remember I can just still remember summers? Oh, yeah, whole summers I've just been so bored out of my freakin mind and just staring at the pool to go

Anne Sherry 22:19
to No. Oh, see, that's what we had maybe in the 70s we could we is just that was our babysitter, we went to the damn pool. You know, like from 9am Till I swear I didn't ever sick or vegan food, you know, begging for food, reaching your arm up into the Tom's machine that grabbed or whatever. Right and stuff I was I was a Hellion for sure. But there I'd remember not that many parents being around there was a whole gaggle of us like that would just walk to the pool get dropped off at the pool. And I do remember some parents being there and like, God, what's that like to have your mom be at the pool with you all day? You know, so? Yeah, but at least we have that. I mean, there's gifts too. I you know, I this there is some healing to do. But I think as the healing occurs, I also think it's important for us to highlight gifts from growing up that way. Somehow they emerge.

Alison Cebulla 23:22
I know. I have mixed feelings about that.

Anne Sherry 23:28
I feel like I gotta watch me analysis. battle it out or come to love just,

Alison Cebulla 23:34
I you know that term toxic positivity is is Oh, I hate that term now. And I'm from California. And you lived you lived in California for now.

Anne Sherry 23:44
I lived in San Francisco for eight years. Ya know, when I was in San Francisco, it's like cold and like,

Alison Cebulla 23:49
I know, Californians are just here. It's this fake smile. This fake happiness. Hi, how are you? Oh, my God. Yoga. Did you have chia seeds? Breakfast? It's just like, Oh, right. So you know, it's like, maybe you could just admit that it was hard and bad. You know? And like not see the silver lining. So that's where I think it's important to be like, Wow, this made me who I am. And I love who I am. But I'm also like, but also the house fucked up. Like, Oh, totally,

Anne Sherry 24:17
totally. That's like spiritual bypassing. Yeah, like if you're not gonna I mean, but somehow what I am noticing is some level of well ifs does this so you go and you sort of heal the burden. Like if you have a neglectful childhood, you're likely to have a burden around I'm not lovable. I'm not wanted, my needs can't be met. But what that does is suppress the natural gifts you come with. So once you can release those burdens, like many gifts are available and they're not. They're not. I mean, it's spontaneity, its playfulness, its creative, its authenticity. That's just doesn't feel authentic to me. Like how many yoga classes you I mean, if I don't know that yeah, whatever that kind of and I mean, you know, in the cell too, it's like we've got fake Hi, whatever. Bless your heart but oh yeah, I like I like I don't know, Flannery O'Connor Have you read?

Alison Cebulla 25:11
I haven't.

Anne Sherry 25:13
She's like Southern I like that Southern Gothic I was very drawn to that where it's like, you know, I don't know it looks bless your heart and then that like people are murdering each other and just like the intensity of which I don't know, it just it speaks to something. Maybe that's why we like the murder podcast so much or something. I don't know. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 25:34
Yeah, the murder the I'm often conflicted. I'm like, God, why do I love murder pie,

Anne Sherry 25:39
but we do not see that Saturday Night Live skit, like trying to get your your, your the the boyfriend goes out for an evening on the town and the girl is. It tended to be girls, I think 10 We're like so excited to have that a whole night alone to be able to watch the cult series and the murder podcast. And I mean, all this like dominated that domination or just horror, you know? So,

Alison Cebulla 26:06
I don't know. I think it's making I think we just our brains have to make sense of horrific things like violence. But I think women are tend to be especially drawn to that stuff. Because most of the time these are crimes perpetrated against women. And most of the time it's by men against women. Yes. Yeah. Men Yeah. Men commit a lot of violence against men to actually when you look at like kind of the stats because I you know, I work. I'm not a therapist, I work in public health. So I tend to look at larger population health trends on violence.

Anne Sherry 26:37
I'm all anecdotal. And you're going to actually tell me if it's true or not. Mine are going to be personal stories and it's better for brinjal.

Alison Cebulla 26:47
Yeah, so but there's, there's kind of a thing happening. You know, I guess I could speak especially for the United States but certainly in other countries as well, but it's like, men are killing men. Men are killing women, you know, and it's not that it's not that much of the other way around.

Anne Sherry 27:04
Okay, yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know how that I'm sure will make that relate to neglect somehow have we talked do we do you think we're clear on what we're doing here? We want to laugh. Okay, we want to bring awareness to you know, I had I had a therapist one time refer to this as emotional neglect as a natural disaster and that's always stuck with me as a what is that? It's like it's a disaster. But it's I mean at the the your life. And growing up with neglect is sort of like this invisible like a natural disaster, you know, people are gonna come together it's very visible. And nobody really comes together you know, so it does feel like when you really start getting down in there and the shame pieces it's like this is as messy and awful and disastrous as I think it is, but then you start to gaslight yourself so it's not quote unquote supposed to happen so it's not natural, right? It's an unnatural disaster

Alison Cebulla 28:13
but is it not natural because I often think about this like especially you know, that that book that we love that was such a huge inspiration for starting this which is running on empty Yeah, I janiece web running on empty about recovering from childhood emotional neglect. Just that work changed my life to change orderly and

Anne Sherry 28:31
I only just, I knew about it like for whenever it came out, and it sat on my shelf. I'm a great book buyer and book stacker and book looker. Yeah, I'm glad to have a Kindle now. So I don't have to look at my my, my gluttony of books. Anyways, yeah, but I I read I went back to that this pandemic and was like, Holy hell this is it. This is it. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 28:59
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I had a meltdown. I like headed myself into a psychiatric hospital literally after I read that but that's we'll come back we'll come back that's a different that's a whole Yeah, okay.

Anne Sherry 29:09
Yeah, but wait, it sounds like you were saying it. But isn't this natural?

Alison Cebulla 29:13
So but in her book, which she does really well and it literally if you haven't read it, go go buy it like right now you can listen to the audiobook just I know I just said I had a meltdown and had to check myself in a psych hospital but you really should read this book.

Anne Sherry 29:26
Okay. Allison was a meth addict so so look a little prime for it you

Alison Cebulla 29:31
might be stronger than I am.

Anne Sherry 29:35
And she and she has running on empty no more which is the second one which is really good just years ago. Yeah, that one really helps with relationships particularly how it shows up in relationship with friends with intimate how to how to handle graduations.

Alison Cebulla 29:52
Yeah, no, but okay, but in running on empty she does this amazing thing where she goes, this is what an emotionally nurturing parent She sat looks and sounds like this is what that looks and sounds like, that's what got me I was like, I couldn't have this. I couldn't have this the whole time. Right? I couldn't stop crying.

Anne Sherry 30:10
There's the grief piece right and I and in the end, this time this pandemic time I have been through, which I highly recommend it's called grief recovery process. I went through that with my an amazing woman who led it at our church. So that was a huge missing piece after working, working working but actually having this process witnessed by others where you get to because there's something about it, all of that happens like kind of in secret and then you go and work with your therapist and it's like this private place but to be able to what I and I can't say that's the thing that will heal it. I don't know it's going to be different what needs to plug in for everyone, but there was something about that like the words now everyone knows right and it's not blaming it isn't like I anyway, lots of parts come up around that but what felt really key and did give me some release around just this intense hatred. For my the living parent is what I worked on. Was I think it was being witnessed and not being judged. That's why I probably why AAA and stuff works. I mean, you have a whole room full full of people witnessing You and not judging you. Right. So it is this in theory. And I will I'm raising my hand right here. Now I am a judging motherfucker, for sure. But I know that's a part of me.

Alison Cebulla 31:47
I think it's a very natural part.

Anne Sherry 31:48
I think it is. But I've still like I'm still wondering like how I that term a natural disaster. Maybe it was because I was deep in the shit at that time. And it it hit. It felt right for my exile, or the deepest part of me that was like, Yes, something this one. Perhaps it was a disaster. And we live our lives. And we plug into this culture, which we'll get into white supremacy culture here to the Tim Okun's list

Alison Cebulla 32:21
character. So it's so good.

Anne Sherry 32:24
He did it all it all it's like the perfectionist it's competence. I need this. So this this is what you live into. And everybody's like, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You're like, I'm not fucking fine. Right? That's

Alison Cebulla 32:39
that comes back to the point I was trying to make about about her book, which is, but where we're, uh, who are these nurturing parents? I don't know if they do they really exist, or is it just a theory?

Anne Sherry 32:50
I hope the fuck I'm

Alison Cebulla 32:51
one. Oh. You mean the parents now? Or the parent? I mean, I think parents now I mean, like social emotional learning. That's new. Yeah, that's an IT is

Anne Sherry 33:01
fucking new. I think we have to like, I guess I don't know when it started. But I think I don't know. I mean, I see people I grew up with and this is the thing on a podcast. It's like, are you talking about me? Are you talking about me? If anybody actually who I grew up with listen to this, I'm not gonna put it out to those people anyways. But I see almost the whole I don't know. That's why I struggled sometimes as a therapist and I can find people that I'm I really have to get supervision and watch parts of be like when people come in and actually want to repair their relationships or they have a lot of like, they keep going back to drink at wells that aren't going to fill them up. It almost confuses me because I'm so avoidant. That's that's how I learned to deal with my how I grew up. I'm like, Wow, just cut that cut that shit loose. You know, and I'm so this same Oh, this I'm always impressed. And I can hold space. But I do have some confusion. Parts of me have confusion, like and, and that ties that pet Dang, this is a damn octopus we're doing here. Yeah. I keep thinking we can be like, we're only going to speak like a chapter like chapter one and everything all the time. Yeah, like there's a Radiohead song. I think. I don't that anyways. I don't know. But I am finding Well, this may be a tangent, but I'll just finish this thought which is a big goal of mine to finish sentences and thoughts. I don't know if I'll achieve that this lifetime. But I started doing the white supremacy work just just before Trump 2015 I just like started to get like what is this thing and growing up with the South that's a whole other thing I just segregation even though it wasn't really Kegel, it was sanctioned and sanctified and you saw it everywhere. But I found the qualities I needed to be effective in white supremacy work. I didn't have because it's like to be real, to stay in relationship to fight for love. And I was like, I am totally ill equipped and to be effective or successful or make headway in white and undoing white supremacy culture, because I embody, that's how I grew up. And that's Oof. So it's been an interesting journey. I almost see it as this infinity circle is like doing some of the personal work, tried to be in community, but like, I think that's why best white people are kind of bad at this. I think we benefit from whiteness, but I also like the privileges, but I think it's hard for us to change the culture because we are missing the skills of radical honesty, staying in conflict, fighting for relationship. Absolutely. That's what love is, like, no one fought for love and my family, we just knew how to fight sort of or ignore literally, it was a lot of ignoring, not talking about shit, quiet. So when people get conflictual, I'm like, parts of me are like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. And it looks all good. On the surface. It looks like I'm doing the work. But there's deep shame that I have to encounter of why I can't show up.

Alison Cebulla 36:29
Well, it does all come back to Child Trauma, which will be you know, like, sort of our grounding place. Yeah, for this podcast, you know, no matter what we talk about, because our inability to show up with strength and conflict comes from a childhood in which we felt afraid. And our nervous. Our nervous system was just on a high alert, you know, and but a lot of times, it's like the economic conditions that created stress in the household. So for example, you know, I had like a big reconciliation with my mom this summer where she said, you know, let's sit down, I want to talk about stuff that I did wrong. This was her she initiated I want to talk about stuff I did wrong and your childhood. And, you know, we looked through that, like, it was really hard, but really necessary and good. I cried a lot. But I won't I

Anne Sherry 37:19
cannot even imagine crying in front of my mother. I don't think that will happen. Like no, really.

Alison Cebulla 37:26
It is so different from mine. I

Anne Sherry 37:30
I think you're around the like your parents are still with it enough. And not like locked up in like layers or layers. They got through my there was that just I don't know how I'd love to see the stats on how many add people in there. To therapy early.

Alison Cebulla 37:53
Yeah, I don't know any. Do you? Okay, I don't

Anne Sherry 37:55
um, I you know, I do because I found myself. I am inspired by older people that are just rockin it out and willing to do so I find myself in those circles and drawn to women like at my church. There's elderly women that just are the neatest people on the planet and open to so but on mass? No, I don't think so.

Alison Cebulla 38:16
We figured out what are like official email addresses. And I'll put a little extra recording at the end of this with that if you know, or you are someone in your 80s or older who is in therapy or went to therapy. I particularly

Anne Sherry 38:28
doing one, parent healing or legacy healing like that, again, that ifs that I practice that is a whole modality. There's a whole arm of it basically about legacy on burnings, you know, so being able to unburden because I mean, when I look back, you know, my parents were just they didn't experience the depression, but their entire family did, right being youngest of 10 and youngest of Sam seven. They all the siblings lived through the Depression. And I have to wonder, I don't know, in the rural south, did the depression feel that different? Do you know? I mean, I think they're just really living that just totally hate living regular. Yeah. So but also another, you know, another piece here of this is like, how are we going to Adrian Marie Brown, pleasure activism and emergent strategy are two books that are important. But she, just this idea of how are we going to live into community, right, when like, you have generations of either communities being broken up, at least I project, my father's past now, so I can't I could probably ask some of my cousins that but what did they? I think they had a community. That community because they got educated. My dad was a PhD. My mom did go to college, you know, like, but that kind of made them different, I think.

Alison Cebulla 39:55
Definitely, definitely. Yeah. Um, I think that's a big difference. I mean, yeah, the access to education piece, what what I, the just the thought I wanted to finish around, you know, having these conversations with my mom is that there were socio economic pieces as to why she was so stressed that she snapped. Like if I broke something, if I was like a three year old, and I broke something, it was like the end of the world because you don't really have the money to replace it. Right? And so we experienced some of that. Yeah. And so all of a sudden, and maybe that wasn't even the truth. But she'd inherited it from her parents scarcity, who inherited it from being born in the Depression. You don't I mean, it's like, we do actually have the money in the bank to replace that. But she'd already inherited the scarcity mindset. So that if something like if you knocked over the milk at the kitchen table, it wasn't like, Oh, it's just milk, like, I'll just clean it up. It was like, Oh, my God, what are you doing? It's a whole glass of milk, you know, right. And our nervous systems, retain all of that. And so now later when your partner is like, Hey, can we talk about an interaction we had I didn't feel very good about and you're remembering the milk, you're remembering your? Oh, yeah. telling about the milk and all of a sudden, you're like, nothing bad can happen.

Anne Sherry 41:10
I come I come out swigging, if I hear that, like, Hey, can we talk about something either completely disappeared? Like, well, I'll just get a divorce like that will solve that. Yeah, I have just I could disappear. I'm much better. But my I've had a history of just I mean, I was in a marriage for 15 years. I really didn't want to be in like, that's the level of

Alison Cebulla 41:34
episode on that. Oh, Mercy.

Anne Sherry 41:36
Yeah, just the level of compartmentalization. And I don't, I literally don't have any needs. And I do think it's like that 25 to 40. You still, like got so much time ahead of you. I mean, I can remember at 40 My voice in my head, like, it's fine. It'll be over when you're dead. And I caught that voice, you know, like, No, I have to leave this relationship. I do not want to be in this. I don't know. Anyways, so I think you get there developmentally. But I was, I mean, just through age, you're like, okay, the end is coming closer and closer. And that can be a motivator. I really love to this podcast to encourage people to, and I think we are as a culture talking about this more, but just as another avenue. Hopefully we're funny enough to grab some people. Let's start let's start talking. I mean, like, let this be out in the open. It's so okay, I mean, just this, at the root of it is just, I think intense shame. And I know Brene Brown has been out there about shame, but it's like, feels like shame. There's just layers and layers and layers and layers of it. I think you can have good skills around shame but like to really experience I don't know, go into school that just added I used to make up shit about around curfews and stuff or, you know, protect I really had stories that my parents that where I would just copy kids where it felt like their parents really, were paying attention and I was aware of that. And I just used to cop ever just say that's happening for me to share something. Yes. I was like, Oh my God, my parents gonna be so mad if I don't come on by curfew. God, they get so mad. You are kidding. I don't remember them really give it a shit. Of course, I had an older brother that was so off the charts, drugs and mental health. And I mean, maybe they were

Alison Cebulla 43:37
just I'm preoccupied or sibling or that.

Anne Sherry 43:42
Other Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so we had talked about this is another one of the other avenues. I'm really interested in that level of hate. That can and all the oh, just saw the anger as a kid and just, just, that's really layers of hate, you know, and so this polarization I'd ripe to get into these polarizations I'm part of the problem, I'm sure because a or it makes it so easy to hate each other. And to slow down and really understand, you know, I listened like I could name all like my congressperson in North Carolina 11 Madison Cawthorn I just take out my shit on his Twitter feed and I'm like, What am I doing? You know, like he is it's almost designed it's like some puppeteer is up there going like let me show you how and keep all these people apart and busy. You know, I'm gonna post the the most offensive stuff and my stuff is

Alison Cebulla 44:43
really offensive publicans strategy.

Anne Sherry 44:46
I do. I fall for it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. With

Alison Cebulla 44:52
liberal hatred of Republicans is real. And it's exactly the problem. It's so ironic that we're like, I I hate people that hate people. And I'm like, wait, wait a minute.

Anne Sherry 45:07
I get it. I hear it. Yep. Yeah. And so yeah, you know,

Alison Cebulla 45:11
like I was, I was on that. Right. I went on live radio on Wednesday to talk about why as white people we need to care about, you know, reparations for Descendants of enslaved people in the United States. And yep, um, I got a lot of conservative callers calling in live and, you know, I just tried to keep saying, I want to meet you where you're at. I want to meet you where you're at on this. I want to hear

Anne Sherry 45:33
I try that. And Facebook is a great place to try that actually, because I can hang there for a while. It's literally the worst. It's Bing Bing 53 It's the it's the platform that makes sense to me. Anyways, I try I have tried, I have tried and I always winds up with some string of F words and on a block so I do I try I don't have but you know, what I what I found about that what which again, was doing the trying to do the anti racist work. i Some I can't do something around this getting curious enough about this. Ruby sales had a great podcast on our episode on being like, where Yeah, I remember that one path. Yeah. Where are you hurt? You know,

Alison Cebulla 46:21
I love that one so much. Oh, yeah. God,

Anne Sherry 46:24
that was a cry, tears, lots of tears. But what I realized was I really learned to just fight. I mean, it's just anger that's not grounded, you know, and there's a lot of I'll come up I can't remember the names right now. But just some meditation, some Buddhist teachers, just helping to understand that level of anger. And I think it's just almost it's just all that neglect, where's it gonna go? It's fucking infuriating. And so what you learn is starts to come out as just anger, just fight. I'm just gonna fight and the there's so much to fight for. But if you're not fighting, what I got clear about which was groundbreaking is oh, we're fighting to be in relationship. And that's okay. You know, that I love that

Alison Cebulla 47:11
revelation that you taught,

Anne Sherry 47:12
oh, my God, it was huge. Like, because I witnessed the conflict in my, in our church. And, and just the, the level of passion, like, I'm calling you back to me, and I was like, it and it's really, um, from a body perspective, it was the coming of knowing that conflict was coming. I don't know, details aren't important, but I could was so much intensity in my body, but when the actual conversation was occurring, and I was bearing witness to it, I was so caught something in me knew Oh, this is what it looks like to be fiercely in love with each other. Like, like, we've had a rift and it's gone on too long. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna fight to be in relationship with you. And I was like, Oh, that's amazing. I want that. I all I know how to do is just be angry and fight. So that is a an I don't I don't know, I still work on it. And I try to watch where the other thing comes up. I mean, we still my older brother used to like broker fights between my younger brother and I like knocked. No, but there were no parents around. Yeah, so I mean, literally

Alison Cebulla 48:30
like to like it. Shit. Jesus.

Anne Sherry 48:34
Yeah, um, I did I do. I don't think I don't know if they do that as much today because somebody's like, you know, saying like, hey, wait a minute,

Alison Cebulla 48:42
Hey, you can't? Alone.

Anne Sherry 48:45
I know. It's like Lord of the Flies. And that like that's carried into so I don't know if that's what's going on. I think we're trying to figure out what is playing into the ways we're being played. Yeah. by social media forces, why does it work to keep us polarized? What's so hard about being fucking kind to each other and realizing there's enough I just don't understand. Like, like, we're, we're programmed and we're just being manipulated. And that's what Adrian Marie Browns work is the emergent strategy and pleasure activism is a lot about and lots of people's works on what is how can we imagine a society that doesn't exist yet? Like we are trying to Yeah, and I don't think we know it yet. But I feel like it is happening. It is. Yeah, it seems. When I came to religion, girl, I didn't grow up with anything but I was an Eastern religion major in college. The Buddhist stuff made sense to me, but I somehow have come around I go to a pretty liberal church in Nashville, Atlanta, this guy shout out and damn if you actually follow Jesus, and I'm not saying like accept Jesus, Lord, Savior, Christ in your heart and all that I'm not converting anybody but just reading it almost feels like that might be a bridge he was oh

Alison Cebulla 50:05
yeah real no sorry. I'm not a Christian and but I do I always say I'm religious but not spiritual because I yeah I love church I love going to Unitarian Universalist Church I always have Yeah, but we don't You don't have to follow any certain kind of teachings in that church feels

Anne Sherry 50:21
like the language that could that's almost like the language that that like prosperity Christianity and stuff like that is there are the same words it's the same language but I don't know if that might be a way in to say because that's where I go usually it's the people that I'm fighting with on Facebook. They're like damn socialists I'm like, You are one of the biggest Christians I now how do you even say that your dude was socialist is fog

Alison Cebulla 50:49
right? They they just they don't get it?

Anne Sherry 50:51
I know so and I don't know enough about the I can't I can't they start arguing passages and shit with me and I'm like I'm out. I don't I don't know that I just like the meek shall inherit their lesson or the poor that kind of stuff. Rather than we're so fucking mad at the poor people. Right? I have story after story after story, our prison industrial complex and dump. Yeah, that's a whole nother episode.

Alison Cebulla 51:16
Um, well, cool. So um, thanks for listening in. And you know, we're gonna cover we you know, we have such a list here. We're gonna we're gonna cover childhood emotional neglect. I don't know I'm just kind of reading my list codependent shame. The latchkey cookbook. All right. Yeah, I got it.

Anne Sherry 51:39
I got it. We're gonna we may have a cooking show. Maybe we'll do a YouTube cooking channel for that.

Alison Cebulla 51:45
Um, you know aftermath of pandemic policy and childhood trauma, racial equity and, you know, white privilege, just all the stuff we've kind of been talking about, but we're gonna explore all this stuff and how it shows up in our lives and how we feel and all right,

Anne Sherry 52:02
okay, I.

Alison Cebulla 52:27
Thanks for listening to latchkey urchins and friends podcast music is by Proxima parada and this podcast is made by Alison Cebulla and Anne sherry. You can find show notes and other information at latch ki ergens.com.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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