28 - Why, When, and How to Get a Therapist

Anne and Alison share their personal journeys seeking mental health treatment from therapists and psychiatrists. They share what they looked for in a therapist, why they sought treatment, and what their outcomes were. They share how to find a therapist and when to seek one. They also share what you can get out of therapy as well as budget-friendly options.

Show Notes

• I'm Ok, You're Ok (book)
• Neil Strauss
• What My Bones Know (book)
• Pat Ogden
• Connie's episode: Ep4
• Growing Yourself Back Up by John Lee (book)
• Claudia's episode: Ep21
• The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller (book)

https://youtu.be/ar70BMu_0Qk

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.

Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our Spidey prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend, you are wanted here.

Alison Cebulla 1:24
All right, welcome. So today we're doing a special episode where we're not doing our regular intro. We don't have a guest. But we're going to talk all things therapy. Yeah. So how to find a therapist, what brings people to therapy, what to look for? What the work is, yes, many, many of our listeners have therapists are therapists. And you may disagree with our opinions.

Anne Sherry 1:51
This will be a guideline for today where we are today around it. And I'm already like feeling nervous, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I am a therapist. So I should know this topic inside and out. So we'll do I'm here to do my best. Yes,

Alison Cebulla 2:10
I mean, the purpose of this episode is just that we know that people are listening to our episodes about healing. But there's not everyone has had therapy, or has gone to therapy or knows what to look for, or how to get one or what good therapy is or why anyone would want to go. So we're just going to try our best to answer some of those questions to make sure that yes, we have this resource for our listeners for all of you. In case, this is something that you need. Yes, we just know that it's a need. So we're just going to try our best. And so I guess I want to say like, for me, it's always been easy to reach out and say, You know what, I need help. Because that's the kind of parenting that I was raised with. My parents started going to therapy when I was seven when they got a divorce. And, and then they took my brother and I to a therapist one time. And so I wasn't one of those kids that always saw a therapist, but actually, we had this great program in elementary school for children of divorced parents called banana splits. No way. Yeah, once a week, we would go sit in a little room with a therapist and other kids whose parents are going through a divorce. And we would like draw pictures and process art. Oh, yay,

Anne Sherry 3:33
I swear it is getting better. I know a lot feels like it's getting worse. But I look at it as you never would have gone to I think I only wound up in therapy because I happen to make my way to University of Colorado in Boulder and that, you know, but I was probably 25 I definitely needed a therapist way before then. Way, way way. And then a older friend, sort of a mentor type was like, um, you need to see somebody and I trusted that person. And I remember I actually did call my mom and tell her I was going to start seeing a therapist. And she was like, why, you know, it was just not even on her. It just wasn't in their radar in there. Even though my brother by that time had probably wrecked numerous cars had been expelled from school sent to military school. Like, that's

Alison Cebulla 4:29
different generation. Yeah, because your parents are my grandparents age. That's right. And my grandparents. It's not on there's no way you wouldn't die with that. Yeah, yeah. And therapy just keeps getting better and better actually.

Anne Sherry 4:43
So it does like we know more about ACEs. We just no more when I started. I don't know that

Alison Cebulla 4:52
ASA stands for adverse childhood experiences. So I think I think all start Yeah. With my we're gonna each share a little bit about our therapy journey. And and it's so much a part of my therapy journey that I'm just going to start today. So, you know, I did have parents who modeled that for me. So that was, so when I was in college, I started off I went as a freshman to UC Berkeley. But I had to drop out my sophomore year because I realized that I couldn't stop using hard drugs, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc. Other Other fun, never got into the heroin, but other just used almost everything else, probably like 20 different fun things to be honest. And I'm, oh, but I want to throw this out there. The reason I never tried heroin is because my mom sat me down as a teenager and was like, this is a drug you won't be able to stop using. Do not try this. It's going to feel too good. And that just stuck with me. And I didn't try it. So talk to your kids about drugs. I'm just throwing it out there and maybe

Anne Sherry 5:57
all the drugs because your mom's singled out heroin but not the other ones. So that's interesting. I know.

Alison Cebulla 6:03
Yeah. Yeah. I know. But it's just certain. I think it's just what you know about you. I mean, so someone had talked to her about that one, it's got to do to talk to me about it. Parents can only do so much, but it was helpful. Yeah, it was very helpful. That just stuck with me. But so once I was in college and realized, like, oh, no, I can't really stop. It was like very natural for my brain to go. I probably need help. And I know that that's really hard for a lot of people who didn't have the kind of parenting where their parents modeled that for them of like, you know what, I think I need help with this. And I think I can do this on my own. And I want to say like most people weren't modeled that

Anne Sherry 6:46
no hallmark of the Gen X as you don't need any help, which is reinforced by the American. Whatever bootstrap sort of, you know, it was it would have been very, very strange to get therapy. It feels like in the 70s. I'm sure people were doing it, but on mass. That just wasn't. It just wasn't talked about. There

Alison Cebulla 7:09
were a few pop psychology books starting to happen. Like,

Anne Sherry 7:14
I'm okay. You're okay.

Alison Cebulla 7:15
Okay. You're okay.

Anne Sherry 7:18
I know Tom. Tom has a funny story that he looked at it as a kid and it said, I mock. You're okay. And he was for longest time he wondered who I mock was and but he was and why I mock needed been told he was okay. So,

Alison Cebulla 7:33
yeah. Oh, my mock mock. You're okay. Um, so luckily, because my parents modeled that for me. I just was like, I need help. And so unfortunately, universities are not, weren't I think they're getting better. But at the time, it was like, sorry, we only help people. Like when a parent dies or something. They're like, we don't you know, so they have like support groups for people. And I was I would go to these support groups, but they weren't really that useful to me. And they were kind of like, I don't know, we can kind of help you find a therapist, but not really, here's a sheet of people to call. So it's like, not that good. Yeah. So this is where an comes in and saves the day. I mean, our wait, before that. I did do a rehab program. They were like if you want to come back to Berkeley to do rehab, and my I just did like the free public slot, San Luis Obispo drug and alcohol program. And it was really awesome for me and my therapist, Donna was someone that had lived experience. Like she had also been an addict. Yeah, she was. And she was a student in training. And she was an older student. She was amazing. And she like saved my life. What I loved about Donna, that you do, and is that Donna would just look at me and be like, I trust you. Yes. Yeah. And that is just like, Oh, yes, you left. Yes. That we just need it. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 8:57
I do remember, kind of the early therapy. I had a tenant's or something was like, getting away from the therapist is this major expert, and they hold some key that you just have to unlock and figure out, like therapy more now is no, you got a lot of wisdom in you. And we are just like, kind of trying to help you unlock that. Like, exactly. It's a long path to being able to trust but for a therapist to just keep giving it back to you like, what are you? So yeah, yeah. What do you think?

Alison Cebulla 9:30
Um, yeah, so that was really helpful. But then I moved to Asheville, and I moved in with Anne and you and you had I was going to therapy school, which was great. And so you helped me find my therapist that I had in Asheville. Yes, Susan.

Anne Sherry 9:46
Yes. I think I invited her to like our like our like our podcast at Facebook page. Good. Yeah. So I Susan, hopefully you're listening.

Alison Cebulla 9:56
Hi, Susan. So the thing about that was Like, she was great because she was this was like 2005. So this was like before mindfulness went big. You don't I mean, it had gone mainstream yet. Yeah. And but she was bringing that in with the hakomi style therapy. But the thing was, like, I had so much work to do. Like, I'm even just like tearing up thinking about where I was at, you know, as a child. I was a disaster. Yeah, so Susan would just, she would just try to like, be like, wow, you know, maybe that mindset isn't working. But it there it was, I don't, there was oh,

Anne Sherry 10:34
my, my 30s clients that come in, I'm like, You're right on time, like 20s or hard. 20s. It's like you don't even often you don't know what your blind spots are. Until the loss is just added up enough, you know, and then Strauss

Alison Cebulla 10:48
Yes. Yeah. Neil Strauss, who wrote the game, who I was like, in this mentoring circle with him, he and he's awesome. He would say. Just think of it like you escaped a cult. Like, your family is the cult that you've just escaped. Yeah, have to think of it that way. Because you're like, and you may not you may not throw everything out. Some of the stuff that you learned from your parents is really good. Like my parents taught me to ask for help. Yeah, but the rest of it, man, you got to dig in there and just see how they brainwashed you and get rid of that such. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 11:21
I think I had a mentor one time say, I don't know if you remember those biodomes you know, we're living in this kind of, do you remember that? Like you that was a Nike thing? Yeah, like you go and live in this BioDome. And it's kind of like therapy is coming out of the biodome into this land. You and you really have to discover what that land is. So like, just so much curiosity of like, it's your curiosity is your friend. Why would I act that way? Why would I say that way? Like, for me, like, my next level is like, why are community so hard for me, which is what I've just written about, like, I didn't know how effed up and broken I was until I started joining communities. Like I was like, I'm good. I've been at therapy for like, 30 years. I'm like, great, I probably have a lot to offer this community and it is insane. How much crap I feel trying to belong in communities, so goes on and on.

Alison Cebulla 12:19
Leaving the biodome leaving the bio it's scary. You're gonna keep running back

Anne Sherry 12:26
into that BioDome. You're gonna get in relationships that mirror anyway, relationship therapy is a whole we that's a whole nother episode. That's a whole book. Right? Many, many books. Yeah, so

Alison Cebulla 12:37
go ahead. Oh,

Anne Sherry 12:39
you came to my bio.

Alison Cebulla 12:40
So my, yes, I want to wrap up my summary of my therapy journey so that and you could talk about your so really quickly. So then my 20s was a shit show. I'm like, I think your 20s just have to be like you just said they're just, it's just wild. Whatever. You're programming, you're just out there. Like,

Anne Sherry 13:00
you're programming your best. Don't beat yourself up so much. Yeah, not really, though. Okay.

Alison Cebulla 13:05
And, um, and then when I was 31, I moved to Austin, Texas. And I was just doing this toxic positivity thing which listen to our toxic positivity episode because I talk about that. And then when I was traveling in Iceland, I got sexually assaulted by my Airbnb host, and that was a big trigger for me to leave the biodome of my brainwashing Because suddenly, it's like, I couldn't keep running anymore. Like life intervened and was like you will stop running now. Yeah, and I I got back from that trip and just just thought there's something else is here. Something I reached out to a therapist in Austin, and I just was like, I don't I got attacked, but something is coming up for me and I don't think it's just about this. I think there's something else in there. And I was just touching the surface of my child sexual abuse, like just like I think it's I think it's touching this but I didn't know what that I didn't I just didn't know. And so I went to her office and she read me that list of the criteria for childhood emotional neglect from running on empty. And Jack Jack, I talked about that in the episode about Yeah, exactly. It was just like Check, check, check, check, check that I read that book that I had to check myself in a psych Hospital, which we talked about in episode 20. Listen to that one. Then I realized that that therapist wasn't for me and I want to talk about why that was because she felt a little cold to me she I think she probably wasn't a great therapist. Yeah, but luckily I had the intuition to go cuz my mom is different people. I'm I'm a colder person. There's different people that are warm that are cold, you don't I mean, and I just knew for my nervous system that because my mom tends to be a colder type person that I wanted to find the warmest therapist possible that my nervous system needed that in that moment. Yeah. So I found this amazing woman named Pat. And I interviewed her. I was like, Well, why, you know, why should I work with you. And she had just some great stories about her own recovery at her own personal journey. And that I felt really comfortable. And she was just so different from my mom, she just was not like my mom. And I really needed that. And she just really helped me see so much helped me heal, heal so much offered that safe space, I would just start crying on my way to her office. And I went every week, and just cried about all the stuff. And really finally, like, finally, for the first time saw my shit. And I think for me, personally, it was really important that my therapist be really warm and really well read, I tend to not work well with therapists who don't read books, because I'm always reading books, as you know, like a million of them. So I can't go to my therapist and say, you know, this book data, and they don't know what I'm talking about. Like, that's not healing for me. Yeah. So I just want to throw that out there as like, my personal story, hopefully, will inspire you to help you find the right therapist for you. Yeah, that those things, because then I've had a couple therapists since then, it just didn't work that well, for me, they didn't really read. They weren't really up to date on new terminology. They just wanted to talk about my weak, they didn't dig in there. And so what Pat would do with me is every time that I would start to just talk and ramble and data, and she'd be like, can we slow that down? I noticed that when you said this, you started something came up for you. Can we explore that? And having that therapist that would slow me down notice the sticky spots in the conversation asked me about those helped me feel my feelings was so healing because otherwise, I was just dissociating and just Whoa. Yes. What about what my bones? No. That might be

Anne Sherry 17:05
what you need, at some point therapists that will say, Hey, I noticed a part of you is really talking a lot. Is there anything else is going on? You know, which is exactly yeah. Yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 17:17
that's my, that's my, that's like a very short summary of my therapist journey. So they're, you know, personally, personally, so what's yours? Well,

Anne Sherry 17:28
so long, 30 years of on again, off again, therapy, becoming a therapist, lots of trainings, I, I went the body centered route, the somatic route way back in the 80s. And actually why, um, that's just though, that's what was available. My my mentor person was actually good friends with Pat Ogden, who's kind of famous with so that was my first therapist for four months. And I just, I wasn't that discerning. I was like, I trust this person. This person seems really competent. Obviously, she is. But I would I'm because I could go so many places with this. But something that you said, I too needed just deep, nurturing. A lot of times, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't really have a sense of myself. And so by being invited into well, what's your body saying? I like something about that. I didn't really know there was another type of therapy. Actually, it's the only one I knew. It's just what I showed up to it's where I landed. It's what I practice. Yeah, it's about going back. Good. Yes, yes. And so that was it. What I do have appreciation for I mean, it's really why I became a therapist, because the first person after that the next person after that her name was Manuela in San Francisco. Um, was it was kind of like, I was like, Are you my mother? Are you my mother? It was like, the first time I felt seen, heard understood, and I was like, Well, that's what I'm supposed to do. So on. Sometimes I'll even be like, wasn't even supposed to be a therapist. It just somewhere inside my system made the decision. That's the best I've ever felt in my life. So I'm gonna do that. I want to be that I want to own that. I want that. I know. It is worth getting out. I really love being a therapist.

Alison Cebulla 19:27
Yeah. Yeah. sharing that story. I'm hearing incredible warmth and love for you. And yeah, that feels really so good to hear.

Anne Sherry 19:37
Yeah. Thanks. And then I then I like went into trainings. I like literally wanted to be her. So I'm like, Well, what are you and then I did the same training that she did. And so I needed to and she was the trainer and I moved to another therapist, which was kind of sad, but I kind of went stoic about it and was like, Okay, well, I guess this is you know, I didn't lobby for Can we still be in this? You know, it was new to me to be like If I have to go away to become you, I have to go away from you to become you. But still, it's just really, I think the biggest thing here for me, nurture, nurture, nurture, nurture, where my therapist and I would often show up and I was like, I don't know what just happened, but I came in, started crying, and I feel better. And so it was just almost like they were just wiping off like, layers and layers of exactly. tenseness. I hate you. I hate everybody. I hate life. I hate everything. And I was like, Oh, just Tensta instance. And they would like, kind of mother me for a while. And then I would cry, and then then I would feel better. And so I there may be faster ways to do this. But that's what seems to work. I really don't think there are actually I mean, there's so I, you know, then I've gone into places of looking for, like, what's the prescription so that I don't have to feel a ton. I'm like, oh, EMDR let's do EMDR Ooh, let's do this type of therapy. Let's do this, then I'll get well really quickly. And I'm telling you what, this book with step Fini foo that we go on and on about I have really come to terms with what my Oh, my neglect qualifies as complex PTSD. Yep. And there really isn't a destination of healing. It's just, I just keep building. There's no shortcut. No, no shortcut. It's my, my favorite word now is capacity, we're just building capacity to be with everything that hangs out

Alison Cebulla 21:35
a little bit. What does that mean?

Anne Sherry 21:39
It's, it's kind of making, creating spaces like so that what'll happen, I think, when a trauma or a trigger happens, it takes up every single bit of space in your system. And it's all you see, right? And so you have to kinda like to, you have to ask it, or coax it or be with it or breathe with it. So it will it will shrink enough. So that can actually feel all the work. You're doing like 20 years of somebody saying, I see you, you can cry here. I got you. Like that's in there, but the trauma net, it just, I don't know if it ever will know that. But what I can do is meet it quicker. I will these days. I know what's happening and I can be with it. I can get to it quicker, like within maybe 30 minutes or an hour, although maybe a day but it used to I used to live in flashbacks for Yes. years.

Alison Cebulla 22:39
Yes. I would stay analyzing it. No zombie. I my allergy zombie. I wasn't happy. Yeah, I was just walking through my life like a zombie completely. I just had no awareness that I was having a trauma response that this was making me push people away. It was making me angry.

Anne Sherry 22:57
Yeah, I drank for a long time. It was social, but it was every day and it became more and more and I was like, oh, drinking has now I have. It has become it has become a way to cope with all of that. And it was

Alison Cebulla 23:12
because drinking kind of helps you I think drinking helps you access some of the feeling stuff it does. If I would cry with friends. I can talk and Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. Connect.

Anne Sherry 23:27
Without the anxiety. I had no idea I how anxious. I was. I am still. Absolutely, yes. I mask well. So so

Alison Cebulla 23:40
yeah. So that's sort of then you know, so. So how does that bring you up to today? Is that anything else you want to share from

Anne Sherry 23:53
today? I'm working well. Yeah. And you've heard I've said if you're joining today, you may not have heard this, but I am an internal family systems therapist. We speak about it quite a bit through this podcast. That's the type of therapy that has worked the best. It's what I practice. It's who I'm working with. Now what I love about the person I'm working with now it feels a little more adult isn't the right word, but I'm like I don't know some of this capacity. Maybe I was talking about the work I'm doing with her feels a little it feels deeper. And it just feels developmentally appropriate like I'm moving into my 50s

Alison Cebulla 24:37
already gone through the phases see Yeah, there's quite a lot of connection

Anne Sherry 24:41
inside but what's so interesting is I can I'm getting to it's like I'm getting to way deeper hurts way more sensitive parts like what we call exiles which have been or little protectors that helped me manage the overwhelm of neglect, like I'm meeting them for the first time and a new way, often people will be like, I've already worked on this stuff, you make a show up to therapy and be like, I've worked on this stuff. There's hundreds of poems out there, and wisdom that say, No, you're just gonna keep coming and circling. Like, if you your original trauma, which mine is just this neglect. I just keep digging in that area, you know, like, and I'm just meeting in order to it feels like to me in order to keep being big in this world, almost equal and opposite reaction. So I'm one of those like, there's some law, physics law or something, the bigger that you become, you better go. You don't better. But what's happening for me is I have to go and look at deeper stuff, the more that I expand, it's almost like there's an equal and opposite reaction into something that's pretty hurt. And that's, I think, if you grew up pretty securely attached, I don't I don't think you're on that path. And I'm coming to this are those people? Who are you? Who are you?

Alison Cebulla 26:07
Yes, securely attached

Anne Sherry 26:08
your promise, but it's like cast. So anyways, that's just feels like it's just a journey that goes, I think I'm finally getting to the place of accepting Oh, I just keep showing up. Just keep going. You're doing fine. You're doing all right. And that is that capacity to meet? What doesn't what feels edgy, what feels tense? It's like, this is something I just don't live in those spaces. Right. I don't live in a my meet them. I think well,

Alison Cebulla 26:38
so this is a good transition to our next point, which is why might pique my why might a person seek a therapist? And if you're listening, and you're like, maybe I want one? I don't know. Or maybe I want a better one or a better one for you. Yeah, I think there's, it's like, you know, how they say there's like a lid for every pot.

Anne Sherry 26:56
I've had people come, you know, yeah, I'm a therapist. People have met me and they're like, doesn't feel like a good fit. I'm like, probably not.

Alison Cebulla 27:04
Most of you. Someone that's not a good fit today. Yep. Yeah. So we will talk about that. But first, the kinds of things that bring someone to therapy. And so I'll share a little bit about, you know, for me, relationships are a big one, you know, like, I've like my first major boyfriend, he and I would just fight all the time, verbally. Like just just all the time. And I didn't know that we were quote triggered or that trauma was coming up or whatever. And so he actually, I was seeing Susan and he started seeing Vijay. Connie are guests from Episode Four colonies husband. Yeah. And that was awesome. And so that was my first exposure to trauma, that trauma is coming up in your fights because um, we both as a result of him working with Vijay, we both read a book by John Lee called Growing yourself back up that talks about, you know, if you're having an argument about how, you know, how come you always come home late from work, and it's blowing up, you can't talk about in the same way, something else is going on for you, which for me, because that was a fight was like my mom would do that. You know, she didn't she didn't, she didn't want to see it. She wasn't excited to see us. After she got off work. She would work late, she would forget to pick us up from after school program. And so it was this old wound. So we were having these explosive fights and I was like, what is happening? Why is this hurting so much? And it's like, well, because your mom Hello? That hurt? Yeah, you know, and you want and so now you're wanting your partner to show up in a way that heals that wound? Yes. So I so you know, the kinds of things that bring people to therapy are often relational. Why am I fighting with my partner or why am I not fighting with my partner? Like having pets are important to like, there's like, valid like you want to do? Why does it feel so empty? Yeah, why aren't we talking? Yeah, that's right or your coworkers or your boss like for me it's like another thing that that took me to therapy was like How come I can't keep a job?

Anne Sherry 29:08
It's not a Tom has a saying I like it's not a problem until it's a pattern you know? So when you see a pattern of losses or why am i right? This is where the curiosity piece and Claudia alludes to this this like and Stephanie does this unflinching curiosity of like, what is going on here? Rather than like out what the fuck I love that I say that that has helped me grow my capacity so much because I'm like, What is this? You know? What is yes? Yeah. The fuck yes, yes. Yes.

Alison Cebulla 29:42
If you are saying that in any area of your life, why can't I follow through? Why can I keep a job? Why can't I talk to my partner? Why is this hurting? Why does it Why do I feel numb? Why

Anne Sherry 29:54
lots of comparing to there's a phrase to compare us to despair. But if you find yourself crying equity comparing like why don't I have that? Why don't I? You know, it's like there's just a question to ask. Yes. Yeah, just not. Yeah. And not be needing a therapist, like, why don't I have what I want? Maybe that's that maybe that's a coaching road? Who knows?

Alison Cebulla 30:17
I think it's a really I think it's a really good question to ask. And of course, some of these things are like societal level like for us 100%. We didn't get to do the thing that Boomers and Gen X did where we like got the house and the job and the career and the partner like none of us are doing that. And I think it's really important that therapy be contextual in that way. Yes. But also, if you are, if you always have money problems, and you can't seem to get a grip on your finances, that's a great reason to go to therapy. That's a great reason to go to therapy. Yeah, you know, I mean, when I saw I used to teach this coaching program that helped people quit sugar, that's another great reason to go to therapy, if you can't, you know, if you just can't get a handle, and you just always feel like, but why am I always eating when I don't want to or not eating when I need to? That's another great reason to go. And we would do this program where we look at your relationship with sugar, because that was one for me. And that was the whole point of the program was just to build an emotional foundation. Yeah, feel your feelings instead of eating your feelings? Yes. Yeah. And that's the same with if you're overspending. Yeah. How come you're spending your feelings instead of feeling your feelings? You know, that was that Claudia to your

Anne Sherry 31:28
body and talked about that, too. Don't treat the symptoms, often you may start there. But once these like these things that are not really about the sugar, yes, yes. Then you start feeling stuff. And that can be overwhelming. So don't sit with the overwhelmed, don't pick up a new addiction, go to a therapist and try to get carried for

Alison Cebulla 31:49
addiction that is safer. Like I remember reading an influencer once but she's like, my mental health thing is if I'm feeling triggered, I just go to the dollar store and buy something that's like $2. Yes, like, addiction that might work for you. Yeah, I mean, if you need to go buy a $2 things so that you don't buy a $200 thing? Yeah, that Yes.

Anne Sherry 32:11
That's true. Yeah. Go to yoga. What

Alison Cebulla 32:14
are some other things that bring? Yeah, like what brings clients to your door? What's what's their tipping point?

Anne Sherry 32:21
I'm usually relationship, grief, things that seem out of proportion, maybe a grief has occurred, and they just can't seem to get over it. Because often, like you had talked about the sexual assault, that's this is complex grief, where it pretty much opens a doorway to all the unresolved grief, so it seems outsized, you know, and you're like, why can't you do this? And you know, you're, you're doing all the things and it doesn't seem to be it's just not taking? Yes. Let's see what else just life transitions. Don't be afraid to have somebody help you with some life transitions like my kids have left the house like we're not we've been taught in this, this stupid America, this part of American culture, like you should be able to know this, you know, your friends are fine doing it. Why not get some assistance with like, your kids have left the house? Right, your empty nesting, maybe it's like you didn't realize stuff that you had around. You've been a parent for so long, and then you don't have a purpose. Or maybe you didn't nourish certain purposes, let somebody help you do that. therapy can be it's doesn't have to be this like 30 year, I didn't go straight for 30 years. I'm a big proponent of taking breaks to letting the work work. So yeah, life transitions, trauma. All the traumas. Yeah. I

Alison Cebulla 33:52
love that life transitions. Yeah. So now we're gonna talk about how to find how to even find a therapist. And then we'll talk about what what is what, why did you know what should be the goal? What's the outcome? Right? What are you going to get out of it? So how to find a therapist. So I've actually going to post in the show notes. I made a video a couple years ago about how to use the website Psychology Today to find a therapist, which is one way that you could find a therapist, so I'm going to post on the show notes. And for example, is a therapist that's not on Psychology Today, because you're usually full. You use Yeah, for all

Anne Sherry 34:29
yes, at this point and just how I was connected in the community and just decisions I've made on life balance. I am pretty full. So but one thing that's

Alison Cebulla 34:43
a sticking point, I just want to acknowledge that for our listeners is like I'm so sorry that it's so hard to find a therapist Jesus H Christ

Anne Sherry 34:50
it is but don't don't entirely buy that. You're gonna find that I do want to hold space for that. But keep going, you know, because if you just keep going some ways, one thing I was talking to you about in Asheville, and I'm sure many communities have this, there is a professional Facebook group, it probably has 1500 members on it. Anytime somebody says, I need a therapist or I don't know, I'm looking for this particular thing, I just post that to that group. And I get like 10 responses, five responses. I've

Alison Cebulla 35:31
got space called, though, for people who are literally, how do I find this group? What are these? Well, the it's it's really

Anne Sherry 35:37
it is the professional group. So what I would say you have to be, I would say, ask your friends, don't be afraid to say I'm looking for a therapist. It's not shameful. And maybe people do that. Now, I guess they asked, Who do you see? Or do they have openings? You know, could you ask your therapist like, like, ask we talked about this and community a little bit be a burden. Like, push a little bit and just say, could you like, keep at it like some and I know that may be something you want to work on in therapy, like being assertive. But you are, I mean, we know this, like all these humans have worth. And you may have to like ramp it up. I swear, once you get to your therapists office, you can talk about for weeks, like how hard that was to find that person. You know, that's the type of thing you could but like, try, keep going. I mean, there's a better help is out there now. So I mean, some of those may be a great place to start. I don't know the quality of therapist on BetterHelp. And, but I mean, isn't it kind of amazing that there's tons of commercials, Michael Phelps, and a lot of people out there saying, I am doing therapy, so I love it to distill that down. Yeah, yes. Pete Davidson. He's like, Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 36:51
God bless him. Yes. This is why he can just date any woman that he wants in the whole world. Because he's like, Yeah, guess what I have, there's a lot of stigma around saying that you're borderline because that's a sticky one. Yeah. And he what I love about him is that and that we should probably address is that it's really, really, really important that if you are diagnosed with a severe mental illness, and you should get checked out to make sure that you don't have one or that you do have one before you try regular talk therapy because talk therapy does not treat severe mental illness, it does not treat borderline personality disorder, or bipolar it is probably going to be a and I'm not a doctor. So don't you know you need to talk to a doctor. But it's probably going to be some combination of medication, your psychiatrist, which is a medical doctor, that's what psychiatrist is. I know it's kind of confusing. All the different terms. Yeah. So you need to get a good psychiatrists too. And just make sure and a good psychiatrist will say, maybe you don't need meds mine did. When I saw psychiatrist he said, If you don't need meds, we're not going to put you on them. Let's try it. Let's just see. Yeah, it turns out, I really did need the meds. And it was great for me. And I'm probably saved my life. Um, and so if you have and I you know, so I have a severe mental illness, I have major depressive disorder. So you know, that requires psychiatry. And my psychiatrist said, you also need to be in talk therapy. So that was amazing for me. Yeah. And, but with Pete Davidson, what I love about what he's doing is that he, he said in some interview, you know, I go to Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, twice a week, which is the only clinical proven treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder, you cannot go see a talk therapist and recap your week and go, Yeah, this was hard at work data and expect that your borderline personality disorder is going to get better, because if not, you need to get the clinically proven treatment for what you have.

Anne Sherry 38:44
Yes, yes. Absolutely. And really talking to therapists about their competencies. Like, ask them what the, because a lot of times on Psychology Today, you just you just check like 100 boxes or whatever where you're being Oh, yes. And it's like, it's like, look for a therapist that kind of specializes. Or ask them about that. What is what, you know, what do you actually treat? And just don't be afraid to be a bit awkward or ask for can we just talk a little bit? Yeah, you are

Alison Cebulla 39:21
interviewing, too? Yep. Um, for me, like a big one. When I started working with Pat was like, I like I said, I really wanted a therapist who'd read certain books. And so for me, it was really important that I found a therapist that had read the Alice Miller one, the trauma to Child Yeah, yeah, I just it was really important to me that my therapist had read that and so I asked her and she was like, Absolutely. That's one of my foundational books. And so I was like, boom, we're in Yeah. Because we I want to have that shared language. Yes. And it's like, if you're not, if you don't know what trauma is, there's no way I could work with you. Yeah. Yeah. You have to know what trauma is. So Oh, why should therapy do

Anne Sherry 40:03
it? She said, it's not going to necessarily make you feel better. Right away. For the first time in your life, you might be making space to look at all the things you've been masking, or pushing aside. So it can feel a little disorienting initially. Ideally, you may even want to talk to a therapist about like, can you help me with that? Or I mean, just just don't be surprised if it feels a little, you know, it's the darkest before the dawn or whatever, all these phrases, you know that it feels a little nuttier initially, because you're just seeing stuff maybe for the first time. But just a good point. Yeah. So you know, having we know all about these grounding skills now, the DBT the five senses, like use everything, there's not one prescription, you know, so I would be a little bit aware of people that are like, No, you're going to be better in this amount. This amount of time, I can get you better in this amount of time. Therapists with big agendas. So

Alison Cebulla 41:06
I mean, I, I thought I was like, you know, on my way, doing pretty good at it. I had a major meltdown out of nowhere yesterday, big, big, big, big, big, big meltdown. So you just never know what's in there.

Anne Sherry 41:19
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I say it again, that capacity piece I ideally you're you're building your sense of self, you're building your sense of trust, like ifs has these qualities of self and I can never name them all. But what we're looking for with my favorite one is curiosity. Calm courage, creativity, like those are the qualities that we possess, ideally, somewhere in there that got knocked out by generations of trauma, just your experience. But it is possible to like this idea of like this. The calm you know, every tornado does have an eye. So you're sort of looking Can I have these spaces? While it's insane outside? Do you know because nothing. You can't change your external environment? Yeah. Initially.

Alison Cebulla 42:10
Yeah. I mean, as an example, let's say I had the kind of, I got triggered by something. And, and it triggered some pretty big trauma for me. So I had like, kind of a meltdown yesterday. And so I think like the me before therapy, which was a long time ago, but maybe I would have gone for some drugs or gone for a drink or distracted myself or changed. You know, like, honestly, like the trigger really made me want to blame people. Like it really made me go like, Oh, you know what, my boyfriend is never there for me, which is not true data. And I hate everyone and even let's the podcast is stupid. It made me want to redirect everything and everyone I need to, I need to stop doing the podcast need to break up with my boyfriend. You know what I hate living in San Luis Obispo? Yes. And so instead of taking action on any of those things, which is what I would have done without therapy. Yep, I just went, you know what? I'm not qualified today to do anything. So why don't I just get curious, like you said, about what this is? What the fuck is this? Yes, yes. And just ride it out. Yeah, and gave myself that space ended up having several hours of some pretty deep sobbing and crying, and then was able to reach out to you and and another friend that shares some similar trauma with me. And just be like, I had something really big came up for me today that I need to process. And at the end, hopefully, that trauma is more integrated, so that the blaming, and the running is happening less and less each x is

Anne Sherry 43:43
that's the capacity piece, you know that where it doesn't feel you don't have to leave yourself. You don't have to leave yourself and look way outside or look at everything in your life. That's and make everything wrong, right. It's just like what Yeah, is this? And what

Alison Cebulla 43:59
is this? Yeah, yeah. And then hopefully, the trigger just gets a little less and less. So I don't need to have that giant, giant giant meltdown next time. Maybe I will. Who knows? But hope hopefully, what's happening with the therapeutic process and in therapy, I got the tools to even have this meltdown in this way, is that it just gets less and less and less reactive my nervous system over time. I can dip in there and touch it touch the pieces of the trauma and sit with it and have a cry little by little by little instead of just terrorizing myself for the people around me. Yes. Basically what I asked.

Anne Sherry 44:35
I talked about that one time, like it's the clean pain and dirty pain and they talked about talks about that in equity work or just doing a white supremacy culture type or just those types of work is like it's, you often will just you feel something uncomfortable, unfamiliar, it feels gross, it feels bad. It probably is something from childhood. And you're just like no way Am I owning this? It must be you, you, you, it's all external. So we're teaching us to go internal and be like, What is this and learn how to process the pain? Yes. And it's not who you are.

Alison Cebulla 45:14
So I just want to talk a little bit about what might get in your way. If this is the first time you're gonna go see a therapist, or if it's the first time you want to find a therapist, that's an even better fit for you. I think one thing that comes up often is the feeling of discomfort in the body can be really hard. Yeah. So you you like, especially if you've never had it modeled, like, I had a friend say, like, I don't even know what to say, when I call the therapist, what am I supposed to say? And so I just want to offer that Yes. If you've never called a therapist to say, I need help, I need a therapist. This is feeling hard. That is going to feel really, really, really uncomfortable in your body. Because new things yes, feel uncomfortable. Yes. Yep. But if you can, hopefully, we've made the case that there's a lot of ease and beauty and everything on the other side, and therapists are gonna, they're gonna help you with that, they're gonna be like, it's okay. You don't have to be

Anne Sherry 46:08
more that you can tell the truth about what's happening for you in the moment, the better off you'll be, like, this is terrifying to talk to you. You know, there's so much information right there. I know, I need help. Like, just make it simple and say what's happening for you, you do not have to be like, you don't have to. And I want to work on this, this, this and this. But if you can just

Alison Cebulla 46:29
feel like sometimes a barrier though, is like it's feel so ambiguous. Like for me, the way that my trauma shows up often is that I'm frozen. And so just going to your therapist and saying I don't I just think I feel numb all the time. And I don't understand why I'm so numb or why I'm so frozen or why I can't show up or what so sometimes it's like I often think like the the the giant verbal fights that I was getting in with with one of my ex boyfriends. That was easy to look at and say this isn't healthy because you can see it Yeah, but the numbing out the watching TV every night, the drinking a couple drinks every night. That is harder to see and address. Because it's just like you're just coasting. Yeah, but coasting is a great reason to go to therapy,

Anne Sherry 47:12
I would say I mean, what impact Yeah, walking through my life sleepwalking, which we now know, is probably some form of dissociation, which I know is a big term. And yeah, you know, psychiatrist, psychologist might be like, Stop throwing that term around, like, Stop throwing trauma around or whatever. But yeah, like it, I don't want to get into the structural piece. But you also can reach out to therapists via text via email, there's ways to do it that aren't so triggering to kind of see who's available, see what their responses are like.

Alison Cebulla 47:47
That brings me to a really good point, though, because there are a lot of therapies that are like text therapy data, which can be good for like emergencies. But I want to throw this out there because, you know, I work in truck, the science of trauma. And so I do know a lot about this, and we'll link to this in the show notes. But the still face experiment with the ED Tronic. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 48:07
yeah,

Alison Cebulla 48:08
we should get him on our podcast, I have his email where the mom needs to look into the baby's eyes and COO and awe Oh, I'm so happy you're here. And those emotions. Yeah. And for a lot of us with attachment trauma, of which Anna and I are definitely two of those people. And you probably are too because it's really tough for parents to be there all the time. Yes, every time that your baby needs you. Yeah, that you need that therapist every week to look at you and marry your emotions and care about you to rewire those that attachment stuff that went wrong in your brain. So just the text therapy or the really quick is good for an emergency. But long term you need to show up and have someone look you in the eyes every week for a long time to heal those attachment wounds.

Anne Sherry 48:56
Yes, yes, probably forever for some of us. But you actually but I think you do you start again that capacity building the therapy is about then now I have I got enough confidence to develop my goddess group, you know, like this group of women I've been meeting with for 12 years. So I have these other pockets like you start to the it's not just you and a therapist at the end of your life. You know, ideally you're starting to move out into your world and connect with groups and those types of things. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 49:25
Oh, that reminds me that it's so important to talk about the budget when it comes to a huge barrier Yes, but if you don't have it in your budget, Al Anon groups and adult children of alcoholics groups are free and so so so good if you get the right group keep avoid the groups with like toxic dominant people. And and if you find a good healing group, those can be so healing and free. But most insurance, you know that you'll find a therapist eventually that takes your insurance. If you if you look, but I just want to say like if you do have have the means to pay for expensive therapist, I would say it's totally worth the money. But there's free, there's free options out there. There's community health clinics, like I used to go to the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center, that was completely free. So Ann's going to take off Sia, and bye, everybody, I gotta go. And so making sure that you have some free resources, so I, you know, to help you on my sexual trauma, you there's always some sort of rape or sexual assault crisis center in almost every town or city that you can find and get free, free, free, free free therapy. And so and that can be like, I think that unfortunately, some of the languaging can be off putting, because it's like, well, it didn't just happen yesterday. So is it really a crisis, so you can go to these crisis centers, even if you're so you know, crisis happened when you were five, or three or 16. there for everybody. And, and so and there's other, you know, community counseling centers in a lot of cities and towns, and you can kind of Google Bs, and where you can find access to free therapy or therapists and training. Like, like I mentioned before, the San Luis Obispo drug and alcohol center had an amazing therapist and amazing counselors of their programs that helped me heal so much. And that was free, that was completely free. So there are you know, for every budget, there should be someone for you. Um, you know, I don't I just in case that's a barrier, like, well, I just don't have the money for a therapist. You know, I think it's also just like a really good investment. I mean, a lot of therapists offer sliding scale. So, you know, for certain people who have a good job and insurance, it's one price, but they could take a couple lower income. You know, when I was seeing Susan in Nashville, I did have insurance. But it was still a $30 copay. And so I just asked my mom at the time, and I realized not everyone has that privilege, but I just asked my mom would you pay the copay every week because I just wasn't I didn't make that much money. So she, my mom would just give me you know, $120 every month for me to go to therapy every week. So there's ways you know, usually if you can find one covered by insurance, and now with you know, the Affordable Care Act, you know, it's pretty easy to get insurance. I know it may be it may not give you access to every therapist, but even just going and talking every week to someone is going to help. So you know, I don't think we were able to cover like every every everything, but we're gonna link to different resources and things in the show notes. Feel free, you know, go to our website, latchkey origins.com and fill out our contact form or email us latch key urchins@gmail.com If you have questions, because we want to help connect you with the resources like hey, I'm having trouble with this business, or how do I find a therapist or I'm running into this thing? Like, let us know. We'll respond if we can. We just think it's really important to get that kind of healing. So let us know how we can help and good luck

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