27 - The Give and Take of Showing Up for People—with guest Tamara Hanna

Episode Notes
Written By

We welcome back beloved past guest Tamara Hanna, a clinical psychologist based in Asheville, NC (last heard in Ep8). Tamara has been inspired recently by the work of Mia Birdsong's How We Show Up: Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community. She shares how to show up for our family, friends, and community, which boundaries to set, and vulnerably shares all the ways showing up and setting boundaries can go wrong, with rich and sometimes comical examples from her own life. We love both the heart and the humor that Tamara brings to community care, inspiring us to show up for the people we care about, and build bridges with the people with whom we can't quite seem to see eye to eye.

Episode is live Tuesday, March 21, 2022 at Midnight AM Pacific Time.

Click here to listen on Spotify.
Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Tamara Hanna is a Licensed Professional Counselor, and a Certified Facilitator of P.I.C.K relationship attachment curriculum. She holds a BA in Clinical Psychology and Creative Writing and an MS in Clinical Psychology.

“I am a Certified Grief Recovery Specialist through the Grief Recovery Institute, and this is my passion–to help people through grief, loss, change, transitions: LIFE. Whether it’s trauma, difficult and disappointing parents or family, or miserable relationships, I’m not afraid of going deep because I believe you can come out better on the other side. Society does not help us very much. In fact, we often get unhelpful messages–sometimes from our family or our communities of faith and cultures of religion. We need to unlearn some things and replace them with tools that really resonate for us.”

Read more about Tamara: https://www.loveandlosscounseling.com/

Show Notes:

Intro:

Interview:

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:05
Welcome to latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.

Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm an Cherie. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.

Alison Cebulla 0:19
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.

Anne Sherry 0:28
latchkey kids are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set our toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do

Alison Cebulla 0:45
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our Spidey prickly parts keep people at a distance.

Anne Sherry 0:51
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about.

Alison Cebulla 0:55
Sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.

Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the kids who were comforted by drugs and alcohol.

Alison Cebulla 1:04
Sometimes we were the adults who grew up not realizing what we didn't get

Anne Sherry 1:08
whether you're a latchkey, an urchin or a friend you are wanted

Alison Cebulla 1:13
here

All right. Hi. Hi, Anne.

Unknown Speaker 1:28
Hey, Alison. Oh,

Alison Cebulla 1:30
thanks for tuning in. Again, we have just one item of business to start off with, which is that we made another YouTube video. And this one I had some fun adding some different like, images and sounds on the top. I'm really proud. My my inner like 12 year old is like, especially really proud of myself. I made an art

Unknown Speaker 1:54
You did so good. I did so good.

Anne Sherry 1:57
So I can see how happy you are about making an art. Thank you.

Alison Cebulla 2:00
It's you gotta make an art. That's your one goal.

Anne Sherry 2:04
I do have to make an art. I know, which is kind of the writing. Right? Okay. I don't Yeah, yeah. So I don't know moving offices. I'm going to make art in my new office. And I got lots of big plans for that as a seven does we it's so many things. We'll see what actually what actually happened into it. So check it out. For the implementation,

Alison Cebulla 2:24
check out our YouTube video. And well, we're gonna we put all this stuff at our weekly newsletter. So if you just go to latchkey urchins.com, you can sign up for that and get all those links every Tuesday, including the new show announcements. So okay, and what have you been reading or watching or listening to this week?

Anne Sherry 2:48
I am still I can already feel a little like I'm like a steal on girlhood. Oh,

Alison Cebulla 2:54
why does that bring up something for you? I

Anne Sherry 2:57
don't know. There's something I want to I think I want it more. I want to read more I can feel this vivaciousness but of oh, it says seven gluttony I want this, I want this sevens on the Enneagram folks tend to have this our shadow is like gluttony, like collecting stuff things shiny objects experiences. So I'm just noticing in this moment that I'm still savoring girlhood. It's heavy, and I feel seen and I was just reading the one about the body. And just the body hatred. Let me share this little quote here, what she was talking about. And it really is that like, once you little kidness when you're just in your body, and then there's some there's some turn where you start hating your body. And she said I suddenly saw my body is I would an animal that had been so mistreated my poor body, my precious body, How had I let her How had I let her be treated this way. My body was me to hate my own body was to suffer from an autoimmune disease of the mind. And I'm like, Ah, so she's I just love the way she writes. It's incredible. And I'm rereading stuff, and I very much resonate with body stuff. So that's what I'm kind of Yeah, being with this week.

Alison Cebulla 4:23
Yeah, we get a lot of that as girls and no one has explored it better than Melissa Phoebus and girlhood

Anne Sherry 4:29
Agreed, agreed. I think I might just start rereading it right after I finish. Oh, good. It's just so good. It's almost too good. Do not miss this. Yes, yes. But are you reading so? Listen? Yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 4:42
I listen to a great new podcast this week called conversations with people who hate me.

Anne Sherry 4:49
I know that podcast I listened to that a few years ago or whatever.

Alison Cebulla 4:56
Yeah, I follow the balloon guy Michael James Snyder on Instagram. And he was interviewed. And that's why I saw that this podcast exists. And Pete, he gets a lot of hate. Like he's very popular. He's a gay man. He posts a lot of kind of controversial or not popular opinions. And I guess he gets a lot of hate on Twitter. And so this podcast is where every episode they invite someone like one of the haters to have a conversation like, Well, why do you hate? Yeah, and so this was oh, inspired by boiler alert, they actually were not able to secure a hater, because he would reach out and this episode is not to be missed. It's so good. It's just so good. It's episode 41 balloon guy. But that he reaches out, like, you know, to someone who leaves a bad comment says, Hey, I do this podcast to understand if you might feel uncomfortable, but it's a safe space and did it and we'd love to explore this with you. And he reached out to all these people, and none of them wanted to join and talk about why they hate the balloon guy. So that was super fascinating. But it made me think of this other book I've been reading called Healing resistance by Kazu. Haga and about like community work, where he talks about how to hold space for people you disagree with, like, I'm, you know, politically, I like I'm very liberal. And I've, with the pandemic and staying inside our houses. It's been very like othering. Like conservatives out there are terrible people, and I hate them all. And I don't want to talk to them. And but he was talking about how do we create spaces where we do just listen, and he said, basically, everyone's basic needs are the same. That's right. People want people who may be anti gun will say, I'm anti gun, because I want to feel safe. But people who are pro gun will say, I'm pro gun, because I want to feel safe. So how can you get down to that core need and talk about how we all have the need to feel safe. So you know, last week was like, our big family reunion. And a lot of my family extended family members are very conservative. So I really tried to bring that energy in to our interactions of like, we all have the same basic core needs. We have like a no politics role. So none of that got messy, except for one time, but it's just like, everyone wants the same things. So how can we just show up? You know, and how can I hold space for this person that I disagree with on just about everything. And it was a really nice energy. It really worked. I felt like I got through the week. Okay. So yay, thank you.

Anne Sherry 7:32
I have that I have that in my family, like on my dad's side of the family, it tended to be fairly liberal, my mother's side of the family just tends to be more conservative. And then my Facebook outrage days, which were pretty much during the pandemic, a lot. I kind of went after family. Yeah, exactly. Now, and it's so easy to do that. And now I'm like, wait a minute, this these are my only you know, these cousins are the only people like they hold some keys to stuff and they're really just kind good people. And I'm like, I that was such a part of me. So this has been a very much an intentional thing of like, we can get along if we focus on basic needs. But spirituality has a good episode on that too. How to Talk to a science denier. Oh, right. That was a good episode. Yeah, I can't remember who he interviewed.

Alison Cebulla 8:26
But it will link to all these things that we're reading and listening to in the show notes. So struggle party

Anne Sherry 8:42
really starting to hate the struggle party. Here. No, I'm not a part of me. Maybe. But I like come to this. And I'm like, I think what I'm noticing maybe this isn't the struggle. Maybe it's a tiny struggle, but I'm like, how dissociated Am I during the week because I come to the struggle by him like, it was fine. I had a pretty good week. Oh, you know, so I really have to let your anyway

Alison Cebulla 9:04
Oh, and so I was just about to say I don't feel

Anne Sherry 9:10
shit. Yeah, just like yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, you go first. I went first the last few times. So

Alison Cebulla 9:17
just a quick struggle party actually. When I checked in to see like, what was feeling hardest this week, I'm having some body stuff. I think I'm just hanging out alone at home too much. Like I've started to feel like lethargic. Like, I can't move like I need to go for a run and my body like doesn't want to move or like me all the time. I'm like, feeling like I have a food allergy. Like this body part is feeling weird or this one or whatever. It's like just go do something stop. So do I mean like if you're, it becomes like a negative feedback cycle where like the more you there was a great episode of invisibIe Lea about this, where the more you think about the pain, the more pain you have. It's like so I I've been trying to like as soon as I'm like, Oh, my arm hurt my I don't I had a thing where my arm was tingly. I probably slept on it funny. And then I was like, Oh, maybe I have a tumor that's blocking circulate? You don't I mean, you know how the brain is? I do I do. So I was like, stop, stop the cycle, stop the feedback loop, move your body go for a run. And a couple times I was able to do it. But it's just I'm just noting that that's what was feeling struggling. And so my tools that I used was just sort of like recounting that, that that knowledge that I had, luckily, I had listened to that podcast in the past. I know that if you focus on your pain, you get more pain, that's a real thing that happens. And so just calling upon that knowledge and going, why don't you get up and move and definitely don't go on WebMD No, I didn't. I didn't. Really, it was a big win for you. Okay, what was your struggle party?

Anne Sherry 10:50
That's fine. You're just maybe about it? Well, okay. Well, I think I sort of alluded to something there of like, feeling not in my experience, but really what I've kind of been going through because of the episode coming. What's going to what we're airing today, the interview is about community. And so I really have been, like, why is community so hard? And I know I've said that probably all 2526 episodes. But I'd like Okay, so the skill I'm using is just show up, right? Just go to church, we're back in person, we're still masked, but I really sit there and try to be super curious, like, connected, and I bet it's almost like I'm an alien. Sometimes I feel like sitting in there. Like, how do people connect? What are we doing here? Why is this important? Wow, those people look like they're really here. Like, really? Yes, this alien experience sometimes. And then by the time I churches over I am, like, run really hard to like get the fuck out. Yeah, get out. Get out. It's it's it. I don't know what that is. I'm just gonna keep staying curious. But okay, so I still offer a thing. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 12:07
I mean, this isn't therapy hour, but like, I know how you are. I know how you are. Yeah. And I'm so I think sometimes you get worried that if you're present, you're not going to be able to handle all the feelings that come up.

Anne Sherry 12:21
100% So that's sort of the other part of this when I do slow down. As we did, I'll just full disclosure, like it was last week's recording, like between our intro and something else that we did. I just had a full meltdown. Yeah, and it was so disorienting to I do feel safe crying with you. Yay. Well, some parts do. But it just was gonna it just was coming. So So yeah, like it's that kind of how do I moderate the slowing down? Yeah. Cuz brings on feelings. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 12:59
Exact. So when I was when I go to church, I, you know, you don't have your phone. And there's lots of great stimulation, like singing and chanting stuff that helps you get like, present. And so by the end of church, I love I love church. My whole body is usually buzzing. It's like I'm on MDMA. I'm not kidding. I'm just like, there's so much love in here. That's my reaction attorney. That's exactly.

Anne Sherry 13:26
That's exactly what I sort of wrote about. I was like, all this fucking love. I gotta run. Yeah, like it makes parts because

Alison Cebulla 13:33
what would happen? Oh, wait, what happened? To me tuned in to that love and just felt it? What would happen?

Anne Sherry 13:41
I'd probably explode or melt or burn. That's

Alison Cebulla 13:44
the fear. Yeah. But probably what's happened is that you might embarrass yourself in public, you might you might actually start suing and then you'd feel embarrassed.

Anne Sherry 13:53
Right? Yeah. And then people have to take care of me or something. Well, wait, did I become? Yes, I become the elephant man. Don't look at me. I'm hideous. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 14:03
Then people would have to take care of me. I want to just bring more attention to that.

Anne Sherry 14:09
Stop it. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 14:13
Yeah, but

Anne Sherry 14:14
then I have to see what I need. Anyways. Do not come to me for therapy people. I know nothing about this shit. I am studying and is it amazing therapist? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So as people we can hold space for people. But being able to do that U turn. So it's a lifelong journey. I am appreciating being a little more open about it, which is a big risk. So all right, not managing it. So thanks for sharing your struggle party. Did I have a skill? What's the skill just showing? Okay,

Alison Cebulla 14:52
I challenged you to be messy in

Anne Sherry 14:59
our lives. Last episode,

Alison Cebulla 15:01
and I cry every time I go to church every time

Anne Sherry 15:07
i know i Well, every time okay, I've been going to this church five ish years or something. And when I started going, I said this is I spent two months crying every time because of the amount of care that was available. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay, but then yeah, okay, so it's there and I think it's post pandemic pandemic to give some if that makes sense. I have to give some like a lot of avoidant behaviors and sitting in you know, latchkey stuff got reinforced. Yeah. So I am very aware of just let it let it be hard. And what do I want, like really actually setting the intention? Because I think sometimes I go there. And I'm like, Well, I'm just here to like, have community I'm like, Well, what's my end? I'm not used to I'm like, Well, what is supposed to happen? I'm like, Well, what do I want to happen? Oh, I just got a new skill right there. What do I want to have happen? How about that? Thanks. Good insight real time.

Alison Cebulla 16:09
Thanks and happen sometimes so okay, I'm

Anne Sherry 16:11
really excited diamond struggle party.

Alison Cebulla 16:15
We're really excited to share this interview we brought Tamra Hannah back from Episode Eight. Beloved beloved guest one of our most listened to episodes on grief. And she's just wonderful. And we talk about community care how to shop for people who to shop for who did not show up for it's a gorgeous, gorgeous interview and

Anne Sherry 16:36
your why it's so hard. Yes, flippin hard and why our lives depend on it showing up for each other belonging to each other. Literally, the planet's life depends on it, I think.

Hey, everyone, welcome. We have Tamra Hannah, back with us. She was with us on episode eight high and did a phenomenal episode on grief. I love that episode. Such a good episode.

Alison Cebulla 17:26
It's a very beloved episode by our listeners, one of our top podcasts. So thank you, Tamra.

Anne Sherry 17:32
Yes, thank you for doing that work. You have ushered me through a grief process with a living relationship. That was very helpful. I didn't realize I have like probably 40,000 layers there, actually. But we got one. And that's 39,999 layers of

Alison Cebulla 17:53
grief. In my soul 39. Take one

Anne Sherry 17:59
down, cry it around. There we go. So yes, so Tamra is a therapist in Asheville, North Carolina. She's has a private practice runs group groups on grief. It's called love and loss counseling. We go to church together. We may soon be doing a dance party together at church. Yes, on the card. I know I need a partner. I can't do it by myself. Read my blog. You'll know why. And

Tamara Hanna 18:34
building the playlist you're building

Anne Sherry 18:36
the playlist. Okay, fantastic. Okay. Yes. And I don't know anything else you want to share. Thanks for happening in your world. Yes. Thanks for coming back. Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the topic today, maybe Allison, you share.

Alison Cebulla 18:55
Yeah, absolutely. So super excited to have Tamra back. She shared a lot about grief, loved it. And today, we brought her back to talk about community care. Well, first I want to ask and because and you were really excited to have Tamra on because you were inspired by what you were noticing Tamra was doing.

Anne Sherry 19:19
Yes. Well, we at church we there was about five books that we could read. And it was cool because you were getting in like a group of three to read a book. So it simultaneously we got to know other people in the church. Maybe we didn't know. I chose Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower, which is pretty apocalyptic. Really great. But my second choice was the book that Tamra Read me a birdsongs how we show up reclaiming family friendship and community and you did a you did you did a invocation or something at church. And I was just like, my mouth just was drooling of longing for what you were talking about community and showing up. And I mean, we've been talking, I've been talking about that forever. It's why I joined the church. But in a real I don't know, it was a way, just the way that you talked about it felt softer, nourishing, nurturing, like, maybe we can do this or it can look

Alison Cebulla 20:25
like, Tamra once again, you brought a spark of hope, brought a spark of hope you're like, Why? Why in the world? Yeah.

Anne Sherry 20:36
So but we have been saying, you know, the subtitle of this podcast sometimes is why can't we care, and it's near and dear to my heart, because I find I tend to go up to like, I don't care about anybody or anything, or I get overwhelmed. Gosh, yeah. And just growing up with my independent, you know, using independent personality disorder as a way of coping in the world. So. So I talk a good game around this. And I'm like, how do we do it? And it seems like me birdsongs book is bueno on this.

Alison Cebulla 21:06
So So Tamra, could you tell us about the book, why it's been inspiring to you and tell us a little bit about community care?

Tamara Hanna 21:13
So I think, you know, I'm glad to hear some hope came through and hearing some of those things, it's probably because I'm having to look so hard for it myself, you know, and finding it and then being able to share it. It's a way of trying to kind of ground myself in it, as well, right. But honestly, when I looked at that list of like five books to choose from at church, and I'm like, Yes, I want to be engaged. But it also comes with immediately the overwhelm of like, okay, yeah, anti racism work. How do we continue that when everything else feels so heavy and so hard all the time? And yes, it might work as a grief specialist means I'm in the throes of grief work and just therapy in general with people. And so to think about using getting more other time to go into other hard stuff, but wanting to stay engaged with it, wanting to keep learning and growing. I'm kind of new to that antiracism journey, just in the last I would say three to four years. And it's been a part of inviting me deeper into that with smaller, small group accountability and practices. But honestly, going from it was nothing on my radar to now trying to be regularly engaged with it, not one off, not one and done but continuing to nurture it. But so looking at that list of books, honestly, it was like, nope, nope, nope, I can't I don't have the capacity for that. Like, economic systems, you know, the apocalyptic normally I love apocalyptic. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 22:41
But not right now.

Tamara Hanna 22:43
It's just like a saturation. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I can't take one more bit. So yeah, so just reading like the subtitle a little bit reclaiming family friendship and community. Like something about having heard this through other anti racism learning. Like, it's like real change happens through relationships, but then it's like, okay, but what relationships, you know, yeah, so I was just getting into Mia birdsongs book, I felt like right off, what she was about is, is illuminating, that we can deconstruct our racism in all of our relationships. That doesn't mean between a white person and a person of color, but recognizing because I'm also suffer from what white supremacy culture has done to me. And that does to my relationships, I can undo it from that place. Yes. You know, so that's kind of I think the crux of what she explores then is how how we can undo this unhelpful work, you know, this unhelpful influence in all of our relationships. And so, yeah, so I think they're like coming to talk to you all about it's really exciting, because I think, even in my own mind, I used to think I have my own enough of my own trauma on my plate. My Plate is already full. That's a lifetime of work right there. That's right. You know, how can I take on more with this, but what's cool is to see they're actually naturally interconnected. Right? completely connected doing this, you know, so luckily, it's like a two for one I love multitasking.

Alison Cebulla 24:21
That quote, that really famous quote, If you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let's work together. I love that quote. Yes, yeah, I'm reading. I'm healing resistance by Kazuo haga about community work. And he just shared that quote and talked about it. And I was just listening to it and he shared that I'm, like, don't you shouldn't like for men, you shouldn't show up for women's rights because you think that you're helping women. You should do it because the patriarchy is harming you and your body. Like you need to show up for you like you You're showing up for others, but you're also showing up for you because it's harming you

Tamara Hanna 25:03
as like this, she makes a clear point that, you know, it's because people who've been forced to figure out how to survive in the margins have discovered some important truths and wisdom that we all can benefit from. Right? Because they've they've no option. I agree. Yeah. Right. And I also like she walks that fine line to also say, but that doesn't mean people from privilege now just get to benefit from all this. Yes, I so agree with this wisdom, right? In truth, right. Like she says something like, we shouldn't like sis, heterosexual cisgender. White people shouldn't be the ones that benefit the most from this, but we will benefit from stepping into it. But our benefit comes from also needing to be responsible to defend those who haven't been able to be in the Peace places of prejudice. So it's just like this really nice like Hand in Hand of

Anne Sherry 25:57
Yeah, I'm struck by Yeah, just sort of struck by the amount like doing this work. Something that Danielle had shared, like, this way that often on this talk about this, being alone in the world are these independent ways that we have to survive, you may develop this perfectionism, and that Daniela was saying, you know, it's a little bit further as she was struggling to she was

Alison Cebulla 26:29
our guest on Yes. Something it's our it's our she's black, and she was sharing just a few ago. Experience. And and her work in healing racial and historical trauma.

Anne Sherry 26:42
Yeah, but she was saying she grew up around queer culture that she had some harmful beliefs. And she was having to like, come to terms she grew up Christian, because she grew up. Yes, exactly. And so this coming down from a perfection place, and you actually have to start feeling nothing is what I'm realizing without the feelings and emotions, things aren't real. So how can you work for something if it's not real to you, you know,

Tamara Hanna 27:08
right. And it's like, we're, we're like a fish in water, we can't see the water we're living in. And so like things like perfectionism, I'd say, that's kind of white supremacy culture, that we're living in it, that we don't realize sometimes how it's constricting us, you know, that's what we're living, breathing. So it could be that fierce independence, like where we value is, our American Dream culture is one that's been steeped and rooted in like, I need to fear be fiercely independent, my family needs to be fiercely independent, we've got to just take care of ourselves, and not getting into anybody else's business. That's right. But those are actually cultural values that come you know, like, that's what me is, like, you know, kind of questioning is like, Wait, where does that actually come from? Where's the preconceived idea that I shouldn't get into my friends business, if I actually care about them? You know? So the feelings and emotions are like really looking at those things, my feet, my feelings or emotions that come up like that make me uncomfortable, or I should? Or I shouldn't? This is like, a way to be like, where does that come from, though? Where does that really come from? And is that? Is that bringing me more freedom? Or, you know, and if it's not bringing me freedom is probably not bringing someone else more freedom. So how do we start getting into undo? Yeah, all of that stickiness.

Anne Sherry 28:25
I was just thinking that we're were forever interested as therapists, and people come to us and boundaries, you know, and we may even reinforce some of that stuff with like, well, that's just having good boundaries, stay out of my shit, you know, rather than like, and then we're like, that's,

Alison Cebulla 28:42
we're trying that's boundary and connection and what's healthy, what's not? Well, we're boundaries, but we have to get

Anne Sherry 28:49
used to. Yeah, a lot of movement, more paperwork. We're looking for that. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 28:54
What you said Tamra about Well, I'm just kind of I feel like I have enough of my own trauma could really take me a lifetime to heal it. And then be like, but no, but no, I need to show up for my community. Could you tell me more about that?

Tamara Hanna 29:10
Oh, yeah. So this is really stretching. I mean, I think that's why reading this books been really stretching to me because, like it is those tensions of Wait, wait a second. I've been I feel in some ways I've been taking care of other people my whole life. Yeah, that's absolutely that's not what community care is really about. Right? You know, it's even like questioning that codependency or that too much of giving, as well as the too constricted so protected, you know, so it's about getting in there to I mean, I think having the courageous and hard conversations to tease it out, because it's going to look different for each relationship even and that's the other thing I think, like white supremacy culture wants there just to be an answer. Right away label. Yeah. Right. So I know where I can stand and where it can be to know if I'm good or bad or right or wrong. And these conversations are just Like, you're never going to know, it's about how to get in there and talk about the nuance, is this a time I need a boundary? Is this a time where I say yes, you know, for myself or, you know, in my in my community because it's not ever, you know, clear it's not like just a category of like to say yes to this is right, you know, or to say no to this is

Alison Cebulla 30:22
right. And what has your journey been around that? I'm realizing that since we've had you on before, we didn't get to do all the fun latchkey questions, because you already answered them in episode eight. And so I would be curious if maybe you could share with us like maybe a messier, the equivalent of burning your cinnamon toast in the toaster, a messier example of trying to figure out, you know, whether this is a time to set a boundary or a time to step in, and practice community care. Oh, putting you on the spot.

Anne Sherry 30:50
I know it all sounds exhausting. It's exhausting. If you don't do it, it's exhausting. Yeah, yeah. Well,

Tamara Hanna 30:59
immediately where I'll just go where my mind immediately goes to trusting that is the answer to your question. I'll try to put it in a nutshell. But I remember a time I'm you know, just in the last couple of years, where I traveled to my home state. And there had been a tragedy in the extended family of my family. And so I kind of went up there knowing like, okay, and is it was a tragic, loss, death. And so I knew like, Oh, my grief stuff, my, you know, loss stuff, you know, going to, usually I know well enough that it won't be explicitly sought Afters helpful, but just even to try to be like, I'm going in there with my awareness of like, what are people going to need and how to be as either steady or safe presence or calm presence, or all of that to bring to it. And it was nine days of unrelentless running around, trying to help trying to resource other people. And one of the biggest ironies was, my sister was there, too. We're all caught up in it in our family. And at one point, she, this might sound really petty, too. So I'm just going to clarify that to you. But I mean, I was running myself ragged. And some other extended family had gifted my sister a massage to take care of herself, because she was going through all of this stuff. But then she didn't have a ride to the massage. So the one time I was going to get to take a nap, I needed to give her a ride. It's not

Alison Cebulla 32:16
Petit five, what the fuck? And

Anne Sherry 32:24
oh, my God, I would have so

Tamara Hanna 32:25
that was kind of the culmination of like, what? And I didn't blame her. Like, that's like, just to sound like you are, you know, yeah. But then after that trip, literally leaving that trip, I felt my immune system implode and I got the sickest that I'd ever gotten before that caused, like long term impact. And I had to really reckon with that, like this did not work. Like this did not work to go in there trying to be willing to give everybody anything, not worry about where I'm sleeping, or getting good rest or be able to say no, or be able to take care of myself, you know, and like, that's not sustainable. Like that kind of community care actually isn't sustainable, where there really wasn't space for me to say I've got some needs to. And that's what I like about what Mia is talks about?

Alison Cebulla 33:13
Well, gosh, because it just makes me think that because this was a family event, that how much harder it can be to set boundaries with family. It just ends how much more draining because there's baggage, there's family trauma, there's a legacy of family trauma has, you know, like going back generations, there's expectations. There's projections, like families, we I'm in the middle of a giant family reunion right now, my dad has nine siblings, there's 10 My grandma had 10 kids, and they're all here right now. And we're we've been hanging out every single night. It's and I'm just like, Okay, this is just hard. Because families,

Anne Sherry 33:56
there's just, yeah,

Alison Cebulla 33:59
it's different, don't you think?

Tamara Hanna 34:00
And I think I carry that fear that fear because family has been so hard even though we talk a good talk about like chosen family. Yeah. And we do get to, you know, choose people who line up with our values, and you know, all of that stuff. There's still almost like, I'm wonder, like, the body fear of like, but to be in close connection with people. I'm gonna lose my Yes,

Alison Cebulla 34:20
that's right. Yeah. 100% Yeah. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 34:24
I mean, like all the parts that are that sort of solidified, you know, and are watching and hyper vigilant of almost any space that you enter. So I'm wondering does me about birdsong talk about in those chosen communities, just a matter of how do you start showing up or letting people know like, I don't do this very well. And I really want to or like how do I how do those of us that are merged with toxic individualism? Show up? Do we fake it till we make it

Tamara Hanna 34:57
happened? Yeah, I think part of it because it's Oh, it's like, it's not just the being willing to give yourself to the community, but that we undo it by also allowing ourselves to receive, and because she like raises that as important. Right, like, like, it's also white supremacy culture that makes it to where I don't ask, or that as well as my family trauma layered on top of that, I would say, right, reinforce that very deeply. I don't, there's not space in this system for me to have needs or for me to ask or that somebody will be there when it's my turn. And part of living into this is, is living into trusting that and practicing that. So that's, I mean, that's a challenging thing.

Anne Sherry 35:38
Why that was not even on my radar. So what do you learn how to receive?

Alison Cebulla 35:44
Yeah, well, what do you think you would have asked for in that moment with your family, that example? Like, how would how, or maybe you did do it and you want to show that or maybe you didn't do it, and you want to share what you would have done to receive more or ask for something? Okay.

Tamara Hanna 36:00
I think it's like, you know, like, well, it is so hard because trauma, like even in the places where I did ask, I tried to make it clear, like, this is what I need. I got backlash, like, there really was got it. Okay, you know, backlash

Alison Cebulla 36:16
asking for something outside of the family. Yeah.

Tamara Hanna 36:20
Yeah. Like outside of? Well, let's just say just yesterday, we had, we have a friend that's kind of closer in our orbit now college student and they, there wasn't power on campus. And so they had, you know, like, some needs to like come be able to spend a Saturday to be able to do their homework and charge their phone and be in a place with power, like all of that. And I'm really like rundown after several weeks of pushing and doing an output kind of thing. But it felt there's a lot of trust built up in this relationship practicing. We've been having conversations like about this book, and she's there, they told they introduced me to a podcast that's with like, Mia, maybe with Adrian Marie brown anyways. So the conversation has been lifted up, like, you know, brought forward explicitly. And so I think that backdrop made it really easy to say, yeah, come on over. And we just we said like, so it's okay, if we were just kind of like quiet time together, or my husband called it like fant, like, Family Study, study hall kind of thing, because I knew I needed to not chat and talk and visit and I wanted to be doing my recent self care practice of like paint by number and just like be in but to feel like I didn't have and they are, you know, we want them to be in our home. And it's some of the things that man talks about is like, like this old idea of hospitality, like, oh, I need to be have a guest in my home. And I want them to feel honored, I want them to feel important. Those are good things. But then it can also create this thing of like, I'm going to be performing and I'm going to be on and then I'm going to have to recover from that real community is saying, like, come into my home, you're important just because you're important. But you can find the glasses or let me know what you need, or eat my food and take care of yourself. And then that gave me the permission to be like, I'm not waiting on this friend hand and foot not that they were ever expecting it. But they're helping themselves that made me feel so good in my home that like this is cool. So cool. I'm not having to clean up for them or cater to them. And we can really be together in a way that's so different. Yeah, in the nervous system, right to like. So that was a practice, I think of failed to like, be listening to like, I knew I needed downtime. I knew I needed to do what I needed to do, which was like go very inward. But that didn't mean I needed to say no to anybody to being in the space. You know, and I could trust that the trust was there between us that they'll take care of their needs. Let me know if they need some different. Wow. You know, yeah, I'm pretty cool. I was

Anne Sherry 38:50
just thinking, what she was talking about the Well, when I think about we just didn't have family members coming and going. It was only just a special company. And then it was just the individual family. Right. It was the special time. So this, there isn't really this model of how, how is it for somebody to come into your household? And like, I just I don't know if that's mirrored much in our Yeah, culture. Yeah, super cool. Yeah. One thing I wanted to ask

Tamara Hanna 39:22
so name, one of the tensions I have is like just the difference between introversion and extraversion when it comes to this like, to me I think that that she even the author discloses at some point she's extrovert and so she's extrovert needs to get met, you know that that can happen through this meme. But me as an introvert, I'm like, Hmm, how does that fit in? When is it about honoring my own temperament and rhythms and needs and ways I get energy or get recharged or not? That's challenging.

Proxima Parada - Song 39:54
But I know that you all need to say everything's okay. Now

Alison Cebulla 40:04
Okay, today's science corner is a paper called potential impact of physical distancing on physical and mental health, a rapid narrative umbrella review of meta analyses, meta analyses look at a whole bunch of different studies together. And so they actually reviewed a bunch of meta analyses on the link between social connection and health. And this was published in BMJ open an Open Journal. So I'll link to the whole paper that you can read and BMJ stands for British Medical Journal. And this was published in April 2020. Due to the concern of physical and social distancing recommendations, which obviously, we ended up having a lot of, and they looked at these meta analyses, 25 of them met their criteria 10 focused on physical health 15 on mental health outcomes. And the results suggests that lack of social connection is associated with chronic physical symptoms, frailty, coronary heart disease, malnutrition, hospital readmission, reduced vaccine uptake, early mortality, depression, social anxiety, psychosis, cognitive impairment, in later life and suicidal ideation. So the results are clear that we really, really need social interactions to thrive. So I think it's super interesting to have found this one, which was published in April 2020. And then to now look back on the last two years, because I know a lot of us are really feeling like, wow, that I'm feeling like just not myself, I'm feeling like I'm just kind of staring into the void every day, I just keep hearing this from a lot of my millennial peers, especially. And so finding this study, and I'll link to it in the shownotes is very validating that yeah, the past two years, and not spending time with each other in a way that felt easeful was really bad for health. And it was definitely necessary to prevent the spread of COVID. So that the most vulnerable populations didn't die. But I'm just I love this study in that it's very validating that if you're feeling kind of crazy, there's a reason. So definitely check that out. But it's just so so so important for literally every aspect of our health to have social connections.

Proxima Parada - Song 42:28
Well, I've always started straying with people.

Alison Cebulla 42:34
You had you had mentioned would, you know, when we were talking about how family trauma and racial trauma, historical trauma, different levels of trauma can get in the way of community care? And so I kind of was was curious to hear what you've been working through on those lately.

Tamara Hanna 42:55
Well, it's, um, I guess, in a way, right now, I feel like I'm at especially actually, after that big incident, I described going home that was kind of like a new mark in the mark in the sand kind of thing. Like, I cannot go back into that. And granted, on the heels of that then pandemic happened, which I would say, again, in a weird, strange way allowed this big reset, of how am I going to do life in my relationships, and really getting clear on like, to expend the travel and the time that it goes back to go back to the home setting where a lot of the trauma is, is so different than even seeing my family on my turf? You know, Oh, yeah. Meaning that invites them out of that for themselves as well. And just getting really clear on that, and where am I going to invest my time, my literal time is in the relationships that are here more. And if it's like, with my parents or family, more inviting them into that, like, this is my life, if you want kind of a part of me in my life, like you're welcome to come into that to experience more of that with me, like inviting my mom to our church camp trip, you know, or inviting other people to be around when families here it's not like, Oh, my family's here. I can't visit with friends. But it's more like, oh, you know, my husband's parents are in let's also have my, our friends with the two little girls that are in our life, you know, like, those are, those are our people, we're like family, we're community to one another. So instead of like separating them, even integrating them more here. So something about that, I think is making it easier than to hold why what's important is important to me not having to justify that back to my family, but more trying to hopefully let it be something that inspires them they can just see it more versus they used to felt feel so separate because my family didn't know to ask about it or create space to learn or care about it. So I feel really isolated like I have this big beautiful life over here but my family doesn't even know because they don't even know how to ask about you know and like Trying to bring those Yeah, together.

Alison Cebulla 45:02
families that don't know how to even ask is like a whole.

Anne Sherry 45:07
Yeah, and I, that and there being sometimes I think, shame or embarrassment or you know, you want to keep these things separate, almost like family. So being able to trust that the chosen family that you have has a lot of space for maybe family that doesn't, I don't know, hold the same values or beliefs or, you know, and where you could be like, See, see, I told you, I wasn't kidding, say that. But it's so true. Yeah. But you're not the only one. But it's

Tamara Hanna 45:41
level. Yeah. Right. Because like, when I invited my mom to the church camp trip, part of me was very hopeful, like, this could be so great for her to get to see other things outside of her, you know, world. But then I also felt very protective of like my people, and like, not wanting my mom to do something that was hurtful wounding or, you know, something to them, meant trusting them with her and me, you know, and like some people I probably gave heads up about that, or, you know, could check in with me, but

Alison Cebulla 46:13
that's so interesting.

Tamara Hanna 46:14
That's risky. Yeah. It's like living into the risk of that. Yeah. And ended up being wonderful. You know, in many ways. I mean, I don't know what's going on below the surface for my mom, but

Anne Sherry 46:26
but you don't have to take care of that. Maybe, you know, right. Yeah,

Tamara Hanna 46:30
it was a practice of that, too. Yeah, that's an

Anne Sherry 46:33
interesting thought about this whole idea of caretaking like you stopped, you kind of just trusted your community and you don't have to take care of your mom or how she experienced them or whereas it sounds like you grew up. Yeah, a lot of that, like, I gotta manage everything around me. Yeah. That's why it feels exhausting.

Tamara Hanna 46:49
So it's hmm. And so then it all sets up like to have time with your family, my family would need I'd need to curate some kind of experience, right of like, what am I going to do with my family in town? Versus like, know, if they're coming to town to visit me? They're kind of visiting? What if I let them just visit all of me, which is, whatever we're up to, and without trying to censor that for them, what they're, you know, comfortable with or

Alison Cebulla 47:16
blowing my mind to think about? I think you're, I think what you're describing is asking a lot for a lot of parents out there. And I'm not saying that in a bad way. I'm saying that in such a good way. Like, I just have, you know, like how many parents out there are still sort of like emotionally? Not able to, like, I just feel so much like, there's expectations, like you need to take care of me if I come. If I'm spending time with you, you have to take care of me. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 47:52
right. Yeah. Well, and I, it's kind of an old, old timey sort of thing. Like, there's a phrase like, Well, why don't you just come and sit with me, you know, like, you just like, you just, you know, just sit a spell, you know. And so it's, that happens in because I'm on the younger side of like, a lot of older relatives, because my parents were youngest of seven and 10. But that's what we would do. That's what visiting family was, it was just insanely boring, just to go and sit with me. Like and just have these sort of like surface conversations, no fighting, no conflict. Or if there was conflict, it was You just disappeared. People. I know. And I have I have clients that taught that are you know, we're in this age of where we're taking care of aging parents that where we don't really didn't feel so cared for? It is? It's maddening. It is like, because you start to develop all this freedom, you know, in your relationship? I don't know, it's just hard to manage both. And then there's this stuckness with family that doesn't have a lot of vibrancy, which is why it's hard to be in community. So I don't know, how are you? Yeah, like merging this sort of

Tamara Hanna 49:03
imagine for some, so many people like part of surviving family was to leave. But then it's like, oh, but then if we still feel oblate obligated on how to maintain those relationships from a distance, it can make it even harder, right? It takes more time, because the travel or whatever. And so this like this is still trying to, like not just change it from distance, but change how we do it. And I will say hearing what you're sharing, and it reminds me how grateful I am for my Nana, who is someone in my family. There's no there's not a biological connection there. But presence has always been there. And when she first finally visited me here and met fant met my friends and met my chosen family. And she just exudes that like I love meeting your people, even if so much of it was different than her preconceived ideas and getting to viscerally feel that from like a family member. I think that really is what emboldened me more to say yes I want more of that. And if they can do that great, but if they can't, fine in really making no one Okay, answer in the other direction. Yeah, like, yeah, like, Hey, this is the time I have do you want to come to our camp? You know, church camp knows, okay if you don't want to like not putting pressure on them either kind of like you were saying, Allison it is a lock task. Yeah, it might not be met with willingness but whatever degree like, like I said, I don't really know what my mom how she experienced it. I know, at one point, she just was kind of looking around. And she asked like a telling question of like, So Sarah, a lot of adoption at your church? And that's because there's a lot of same sex couples and interracial families. So it's very telling question, right? Like, she's observing things and trying to put together connect the dots and understand. So, you know, maybe it's like an inoculation, like, little small doses of things that, yeah, because that's, you know, that's how a lot of change came from me too. And life was small, being introduced to people. And so much of my family, they've not gotten out of their circles, so they never gotten really introduced to,

Alison Cebulla 51:10
I do kind of think that Pete, there is a way to relate to our parents, where we see that we're part of a younger generation, and, and society seems to change and progress forward, even if it's like, one step backward, you know, you know, two steps forward, like that kind of thing. But it does seem like there's this forward momentum towards change. And that if you're the child of someone of a different generation, that it's, it could be seen as a responsibility to help bring them along. It'd be nice if you didn't have to bring them along, kicking and screaming. But you know, but like, I'm that's kind of how I look at it, too. I think, luckily, I have really open minded parents. So if I challenge them on something, and I say, I really need you to look at this differently. They do. You know, and that seems like a gift. But like, I guess what you're saying to me is like, if you do it in small steps, it's possible to, to, you know, I am needing this small thing, I'm getting this small thing.

Tamara Hanna 52:08
Yeah. Well, and sometimes there's things like, well, this is, you know, kind of going back to the book to talking about family and broader terms that like my husband, I, we don't have kids, none of our siblings have kids. That means we have this whole generation now without another one coming in. Sometimes when you start having those other generations that creates natural upheaval in the family changing or something like that, but we don't have that built in. And so figuring out, like, how is our family changing, as we're all still changing? You know, and it not being my parents are drawn to come visit me because their grandkids are here, like, and that's been really hard, because sometimes it's very evident that that would make a big difference. Wow, they'd be willing to travel or come here if they had grandkids. But that's not what our family looks like. So what's the draw? You know? And that is challenging that to say like, that's why it's so important to not only define family, yeah. And the nuclear mom, dad, kids, you know, yeah, a,

Anne Sherry 53:10
there was some quote from the book that I could share what she shared. Yeah, so So this, she says, family holds a place of honor in the American dream, a good family, in quotes, has some of the status of a successful career. But with the added weight of morality and virtue by American Dream standards, a good family is an insular nuclear family comprising a legally married man and woman raising biological children. This family is self sufficient as and as such functions as an independent use unit. It's toxic individualism, but in a family unit form. And anything outside of that. I mean, she even says like, she's been doing this work for 20 years or so. And she's like, she's still like, when she sees a single woman perhaps or you know, just like, what's there's this this thing of what what's wrong with that? It's so embedded this like American toxic individualism. Yeah, so that's a great

Tamara Hanna 54:10
one. I think the layer with the kind of families we'll talk about is like then it's like sets us up for I'm supposed to make this family work. So we keep coming back to like, the things that maybe aren't working in our families of origin feeling what's wrong with me that I can't make this family work, but we can't make it better. Right. Yeah. Versus loosening that Yeah, to say some of that maybe it can work somewhere else.

Anne Sherry 54:33
Well, then would you say to a lot of in the counseling office, probably is attributed to this people are coming in complaining about their, their significant other not meeting their needs. But then when you ask about what's the social context you're in, you know, well, it's just me and this person. Yeah. You know, like that every need to be met by we're

Alison Cebulla 54:52
not looking at the social context and no, relationships. We're really not But

Anne Sherry 55:00
yeah, well and, and go ahead.

Tamara Hanna 55:05
I was just gonna, we can go there the part of the book she she elaborate so much on she calls it the queering of our friendships, how us mark the queering of our relationships? Yeah. Because what I'm taking away from as the essence of that is I'm not going to get the quote, she has a good quote about what queer means anyways. But basically it's saying, you know, like, when we would, what that means is when we're stripped of pre preconceptions of those supposed to look this way, or be this way, right, which we could say about a gender, gender expression, or about sexual attraction or whatever it kind of draws from that understanding, but expands it to say any of our preconceptions about what a relationship is supposed to be. And we get to start kind of dismantling that it actually starts to make space for everyone, so people of the queer community who've had to find and discover what their wholeness really means to themselves, start to lead the way and us all be able to find more wholeness. And then not only in ourselves, but then in our relationships from say, like polyamorous relationships and understanding how do you know this isn't just a slip and free for all? Like, some people might have that impression of polyamory, but it's such intentional relationship negotiating and contracting or like clarifying Who are we to each other? How is that changing? Do we need an update? You know, so those are things I've been learning from my polyamorous friends, even though I don't have the need for polyamory in the sense of a sexual way in my relationship, but I sure do, and a whole lot of other aspects of emotional needs and things like that, that my relationship, my primary relationship might benefit. If that's not the place, I'm trying to get all those needs met. But how to do that intentionally in through community, the type of communication that we're just not having in friendships even? I like she said something about, let me see this that, oh, maybe in our cultural value, friendships that are effortless, have been valued, like it's effortless. But maybe in whatever keeps it effortless, effortless, actually keeps us from finding more depth? Yeah, right. Like, oh, yeah, we just don't have to, you know, we finish each other sentences, or we don't have to worry about this or that. Yeah, there's a effortlessness. But maybe, are we having the courageous conversations to take it further to like, talk about what's going on with our medical needs? And what fears do we have about death and dying? And who will be there to take care of us? And, you know, the queer communities had to figure a lot of that out. Yes. And I just found myself relating then being a heteronormative couple, but that doesn't have children starts to push into. It's out of that family picture of what's you know, culturally expected. And it's, it's hard, there's a lot of grief that's there. But then there's this, this is inviting discovery of what's there. You know, yeah, what's really more liberating.

Anne Sherry 58:07
And I have been having conversations, I'm experiencing it with an aging parent that has no community at all. In fact, what I often hear is like, it feels like judgment from people in her friends that don't go by, but they're like, we're worried about her. I'm like, well, Buck and go to her house, then go sit with her. I'll take her me instead of actually, she won't answer her phone. I'm like, she's old. And she doesn't know where fucking phone is half the time you can hit since I have a little energy here. But I've been so curious of this obligation. There was, you know, neglect in the household. So I haven't felt Uber cared for. And I figured it out. And I'm parts of me, it gets so angry, and I'm sharing this, you know, I'm hearing it in the therapy office, I'm hearing it with other friends that are in this, this place of caring for parents who didn't care for you. And they are they've been in this sort of insular environment. And here they are with all these needs. And it's all up to you. And it's exhausting. Lots of people. It's draining tons of energy. And if we did more community care are encouraged that I think we'd all have more energy. Share, share the care. Yes, yeah. But we just don't know how to pay for downdraft. We pay for it. Yeah, we pay for it. I think one of the largest, whatever you call it. There's a lot of money in putting people in homes and stuff. Right. Like, yeah, and that's needed, but I don't know, I've watched our church like really wrap around people with pretty big needs. And it amazes me and I'm Yeah. Hmm. So

Tamara Hanna 59:47
I think and I don't have the aging parent yet. So please get ready where this could be, you know, because I feel like I'm a little callous or that's where my boundaries you know, feel a little bit more protective affirm, because, like, I don't know, I feel like it's my job and my responsibility to cultivate that kind of community care for myself as I'm aging. Yes, but I can't do that on my parents behalf because they didn't choose to do it for them selves, that's actually a target for all of that.

Anne Sherry 1:00:20
I sent that text to a friend, my mother's friend, like, I can't go back and have her in therapy 40 years ago, to learn to care about herself. Tom was like, Yeah,

Tamara Hanna 1:00:29
I think so there's deep, deep grief witnessing that. Right, like, but to not take on responsibility for what they didn't do for themselves in that, you know, in part, they're subject to the culture. There's, there's grief, grief, grief, grief, so much of that, but, but I tried it, I'm trying to use that grief, or that of anticipated grief, even, like, there's going to be gaps there. There's nothing going to close that gap to make it look really great or ideal. I don't think at this point when it comes to my parents and what the their last chapters look like, unless they make big changes, you know, for themselves, but I can put that energy to like, what relationships Am I cultivating? You know, that has been or myself because the reality is I won't have children, which is an illusion that they'll be the ones. Oh, I

Alison Cebulla 1:01:17
hadn't even thought about that. Yeah. So it's like saying

Anne Sherry 1:01:20
you have children, so they'll take care of you. And that's

Alison Cebulla 1:01:22
it's a really feels like such a expectation, in some ways, an unreasonable expectation. Wow, okay. Sorry, I don't have a full thought because of

Anne Sherry 1:01:35
you young people, young people know, that was a huge motivation. For me. I was watching one having a child later, right. I don't want to burden August, I have one child and we're older parents. So it is you know, it's motivating me to work out more, it's motivating me to eat better. It's motivating me to do deeper therapy, it's motivating me to have a community because I don't want I've watched my mom struggle, and it's infuriating. And that feels like shit. Like, I'm a callous person, because I have a lot of feelings about how much she needs in a way. So anyway, yeah, that was it was it's a huge motivator to do better, which I appreciate that. But you're right. It's like 33,998 griefs in my soul, still thinking.

Tamara Hanna 1:02:26
Right. And that's where we can connect the dots. Even though we've been talking about the examples like the non traditional family. Yeah, it's freedom for the traditional family then to because right, like, that puts so much pressure on the kids or the expectations or whatever our roles versus saying like, yeah, like liberating, you know, all of that.

Anne Sherry 1:02:44
Yeah. Well, then I don't want him to be alone time. Yeah. Like he doesn't have siblings. Yeah. So I'm like, wait, we gotta teach you how to be in the world. Yeah. So. And so I owe people.

Alison Cebulla 1:02:56
I think I have one more question for you. Tamra. And then I want to end with a game. We actually talked about this. And but we just haven't done it yet. Because we haven't done any new interview. So we're going to do a game at the end. So

Anne Sherry 1:03:11
I don't remember what it is. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:03:14
So Tamra, you were talking about liberation through shared meals when we talked before? Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Tamara Hanna 1:03:25
Well, I just love and maybe this is just more a teaser for encouraging people to go read the book, but like she spends a lot of time telling stories of her lived experience in, in these relationships and and communities and other and insight into other communities that find ways to operate in just such radical ways, even economically, supporting one another but but part of what stood out to me was about food because foods accessible, right? Like we all need to use food and but how to bring intentionality to the way we do food. So like, let me say, think of like something that has really stuck with me from it. Okay, so a way that we really can work on noticing how we can undo perfectionism, right? So if perfectionism when that was we've ended by that's one of those, you know, white supremacy, cultural things, or maybe the over functioning child then right, all of it gets reinforced. So that perfectionism, like if we're going to put on a meal, but we want people to not feel like there's the guests, and there's the providers. It's like, how do we all be one together, is being willing to invite people into the process, even if they don't know how to cut carrots so they're not going to be cut uniformly or

they feel welcome in a different way. Instead of thinking like oh, people feel welcome when they're the ones sitting out waiting for the meal, again, being catered to or waited on versus how people really feel welcome when they can be a part of it knowing that however they're a part of it is good enough and it doesn't, but it means having to create I think speak a lot of assurance to like cuz people like, Oh, it doesn't matter, you know, like, it'll get to the table or it's making me

Alison Cebulla 1:05:05
think of these. When I moved back to my hometown after doing like college and then living abroad for a year, and I came back to my hometown, and it was like the Great Recession, it was 2010. And they're just I don't know that I just couldn't find a job. And I felt kind of dejected and just kind of the, and I needed to find community here in my hometown, I don't want to be back in my hometown, I didn't want to be I moved in with my dad, I didn't want to do that. And so I reached out to some of my high school friends to be like, Hey, I guess let's hang out. And you went, I got to work. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:42
I was like, let's do this.

Alison Cebulla 1:05:46
And I got invited into these potluck circles. And there would be a different theme every month, and it would be a different person's house. So it let's say it was vegan, or at one time, it was like stuff that pairs well with red wine or like what you know, and then everyone would bring their dish. But before we could eat any of it, after everyone had arrived, you'd go around in a circle, and everyone would talk about their dish that they brought. And I loved it so much. And I just was like, talk about your food, talk about you may talk about why you made this what went into it, it's just I was such it was so beautiful. So that's yeah, that just made me think of that, you know, of making a food ritual, the

Tamara Hanna 1:06:28
contrast, right, the contrast of that is what I saw happen being say, in church community in the Deep South, where potlucks had started to become this one upmanship, you know, so much so that then the one upmanship, like who's going to bring Oh, it's so and so's potato salad. And you know, that there's always the best that the one upmanship also like, it creates more competitiveness for people that are doing it. But I also saw that it did, it decreased the willingness for other people to want to contribute, you know, because they didn't want to kind of right, like, be up against, like, it's not good enough, or whatever. And so this is really undoing to say, like, create a different culture. And it reminds me this time, so for one of our church potlucks, this was several years ago, because we haven't had potlucks for several years. Anyway, so I brought this dish Actually, I'd made it was one of my over functioning moments, let's just say that so I'd make way too many things trying to fill in. So I had all these really wobbly like foil, you know, foil casserole dishes with different things in it and like I was a jumble it aways my bags, even like everything came that came crashing down at one point and so I put all this time and labor into cooking, trying to transport it to the church, trying to like have a smile on the whole time, all the pressure and like literally everything's imploding in the bag. And I'm trying to scoop up the slosh like curry that I had made. Like, oh, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. So it's served Okay, the potluck is happening everybody seated everybody's and the person sitting next to me has some of the curry dish and they pick out a point from it and then the person across from picks out another coin from it back I was transporting everything in had had like, oh no things that fallen out of my purse as well with loose change. I scooped back up into the curry that got served to the pool

it was still mortifying moment for me, right but did you claim it? Yeah, I think Did you say Oh give me my money back. Just sheer panic, because the six Enneagram six me is like like all of this so anyways, I can't remember how we handled the whole situation. But what's continued is real community is one that like I don't live in shame and mortification of that. Now we call that three Penny curry. It like changed the name. what it's called.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:09
Oh my gosh. Oh, no. That's all Oh, yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:09:14
Wow. Yeah. As an Enneagram one. I would I would actually just have to go die. I would just have to go die. Yep. That would be at it would be over. No more.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:29
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Alison Cebulla 1:09:36
I actually have one one more question, which is when it comes to community care. Who are we supposed to post to an air quotes show up for and why?

Anne Sherry 1:09:53
stumped?

Tamara Hanna 1:09:57
That's a good question. Well, I think I think it's I don't know, I guess what's coming to me is maybe it's not? Well, I don't know, I'm finding myself just opening myself up to look and listen in a different way to those people that are already around me, like these relationships already exist. It's a matter of like, a feel seeing or stepping into are opening up. And it's scary. I'll be honest, like hearing more need kind of come from some places, but it's like, it's a different way to say. But there's an opportunity to deepen relationships, that's going to go both directions here. That's right. And do I want that with this person, then it makes sense. Especially to it's not like going out to, like, I think in past, you know, over functioning, it's like, it's going out to everyone or to no one and are in very vague or intangible. It's like, No, this is like, how will this feel different because it's so and so, you know, to see what it means to actually walk them through their divorce that's going to go in a really intense

Alison Cebulla 1:11:02
pain is that you actually have to care which I'm just like, you.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:06
I was saying, Allison, I was like,

Alison Cebulla 1:11:09
you actually have the hair.

Anne Sherry 1:11:13
Something here I was noticing, because I do have an incident where friends that we adore and have wanted to be closer to and now we're, we intentionally or say we want to get closer to you. We even had them over, we hung out it was you know, we love them. But you know, kind of from that surface, funny place. But then there was this person had an emergency appendectomy. And I was just able to be right in there and saying, Okay, now we have two kids, you guys are gonna need something. And it was there was a little bit of like, No, we're okay. And I was like, No, I know, you need something. Let me help you. And it was hard to like one to push. Yeah, totally embarrassing to actually, you know, I went to like four grocery stores. I overdid it, I really only had to go to one. But I was like, I'm gonna do this really great. So trying to be like, Uber care person. And it was crazy. And then I went, and then, you know, he's like, how many stores did you go to? I was like, I don't know how to care for people. I just went to all the stores. And here you go. And I just want to run away. So it was embarrassing to offer help. It's embarrassing to receive help. And I. So I'm just noticing just got to get comfortable with discomfort,

Alison Cebulla 1:12:27
I guess.

Tamara Hanna 1:12:28
Yeah. Because that's what I hear in your story is like the war we do. Of course, we're gonna be dysregulated in doing it at first until we get recalibrated because we didn't get to build any of these things yet, right? Like, right, like only seriously, like I have a decade's long friendship here. And they just went through some unexpected loss one after another. And so of course I did. The thing is like, I need to bring them food, because that's what you do is bring them food. But it was a little bit the parts inside me that were like, well, I know, they might want some privacy right now. It's kind of like, This is exhausting gal, this news. And it's like, but just to have the friendship where I can text and be like, very clear options, I can bring this stuff and leave it on your porch, I can give you a hug and leave or I can sit with you and stay a while. Then, right like giving options and note so it's your building in where knows and okay option from people that makes it easier to ask and invite ourselves to, because we can trust that we've given them permission to set their boundary. But what I've heard since from that friend is like they were in such a cloud, they wouldn't have known how to ask for help, it felt so good to know, they had somebody who they trusted into that intimate space, just step into it. Right? Because like, they're not even a position to ask, right yet. Right. But we have to know each other enough to know like, yeah, what are the options for this person, or, you know, I'm just gonna, you know, drop it by, or I'm gonna give him the options and say, I'm willing to sit with you in silence or like I say, I'm finding myself now saying with friends that I know are going through things, I can be the person you want to talk to it about, I can be the person that if you need a distraction from it right now, we can do that. You know, or you can just know, I'm thinking of you. And I know, you might just need time by yourself. And that's my way I'm trying to work with like, pushing past like trying to find, like, Okay, where's it crossing a boundary? Where's it not? But where do I get all caught up in that where I do nothing? Versus just trying to get in there with it? Right. You know,

Alison Cebulla 1:14:20
messiness. This is a common thread. Just get in there and get messy. Yeah, just let it be messy. Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara Hanna 1:14:28
Yeah. And the thing I was thinking that you were saying Alson to about the oh, this does mean caring. It's almost like the energy output that we think of what yeah, this has been the surprising thing that I found. And so that means there probably is truth to it. Like the irony that sometimes when I say yes to something, because I really do know deep inside, it's something to say yes to, even though like part of me is like too tired. Like there's almost like some weird alchemy that happens that like, you know, when it was the end of a week on a Friday night, my most deeply needed time and my friend says, We've been cooped up in the house my kids are fighting we've got to get the house it's too cold to be outside. Can we come by your old house for a couple hours? And we're like

and, and that's me and my husband I like into like, we're going to do this weekend. And you know, and we just flunked together making some pancakes and letting it be whatever was going to be a couple hours passed by, they left a change their day, it really ended up we ended up feeling more uplifted from you know, kegs to giggles and stuff like that. And, you know, so there's this, it's not transactional. Ah, and I guess that's probably a white supremacy thing, too. It's not one for one that's like this other magic or alchemy or something happens in the mix that we can't predict from this side of saying yes, to trust, oh, it's gonna give something back to me, too. That's authentic and lived in this way.

Anne Sherry 1:16:01
That is, that's a phrase I've used several times on this podcast that neglect and the mute Yeah, it was I had a transactional childhood. So care is transactional to me and there isn't this alchemy that ever happened like but now you know, it's so it's updating that system that it is yeah, it is. Okay. There is alchemy to it, but you're just gonna just gonna have to believe it. That these are not these are people that actually care about you.

Alison Cebulla 1:16:33
And that you might get energy rather than lose energy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tamara Hanna 1:16:38
And I find myself saying out loud, when people are sheep is about receiving it. I'm like, Thank you for receiving this so that I can ask you when my turn comes and I'm saying that out loud, and it was a way to remind myself

Alison Cebulla 1:16:52
who shaken to bring that in? Okay, so here's the game

how can they it may be fun or it may be uncomfortable. So we are going to play a feelings game where a random feelings word is generated. And you will share if your game if you accept a time when you recently felt this feeling and and what it felt like what it felt like to feel this feeling. Okay, so. So I'm just gonna there's actually have feelings, we'll dot com up. So I'm just gonna go ahead and start putting my finger I think what I'm gonna do in the future is put all these in a random word generator and just do it but I haven't done it yet. So Tambora just I'm gonna do this. Go ahead and tell me my fingers going round Tell me when to stop. Stop courageous

Tamara Hanna 1:18:00
I feel courageous saying yes to your invitation to do this again. On a book that's new to me, it's not like something I know a ton about per se, but being in the beginner's mindset, but being willing to have the conversation with you. Okay, just to say

Alison Cebulla 1:18:15
where does courageous where does that feel on your body? What does that feel like?

Tamara Hanna 1:18:22
Today, it just it feels like a very open and full feeling through my chest. Yeah. My shoulders probably. I guess feeling stretched out.

Alison Cebulla 1:18:31
Thank you for sharing. Okay, yeah. Do you want to do on

Anne Sherry 1:18:35
what do I do courageous? Or you're

Alison Cebulla 1:18:39
gonna get you're building a story.

Anne Sherry 1:18:42
That was like, going to one up, Tamra.

Alison Cebulla 1:18:46
I have to let go. Okay, so Tamra,

Anne Sherry 1:18:49
I'm not sure I'm not a sociopath. I'm discovering that.

Alison Cebulla 1:18:53
So. Okay. Okay. All right. Tell me when to start right.

Proxima Parada - Song 1:18:57
I'm

Alison Cebulla 1:19:02
indifferent.

Anne Sherry 1:19:05
All day, every day. Like, that is my baseline there's a line at my neck and there's nobody below my neck. So yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:19:20
so do you have maybe? Yeah, like, specific moment? Yeah, no,

Anne Sherry 1:19:26
here's my baseline. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 1:19:27
I hear you know, you I hear you Okay.

Anne Sherry 1:19:35
Indifferent god, is that a feeling? Or is that lack of feeling that feels like lack of feeling to me? indifferent, indifferent. I'm having trouble with that one. Can I have another one?

Alison Cebulla 1:19:53
Well, um,

Anne Sherry 1:19:54
I think how can different a feeling?

Alison Cebulla 1:19:57
Yeah, and he thought maybe you just want to share what it feels like in your body when you think about a city with a difference?

Proxima Parada - Song 1:20:04
Um

Tamara Hanna 1:20:08
It feels like

Anne Sherry 1:20:09
I am trying to make something happen so that I can mask indifference if that makes sense. I can feel okay, like, you know, trying to generate something something funny something. Yeah, I can feel it's a little panicky inside you asked me about indifference because that is one of the that is one of the core things I work on in therapy and struggle with just this kind of like, that's sort of the habit the go to have like, whatever, who cares?

Alison Cebulla 1:20:45
And where does I don't want to feel it in your body? What does it feel like?

Anne Sherry 1:20:49
You know what it feels like? What just right when you said that it's what I got an image of my heart just being flattened, just smashed to. Oh, and yeah, it was just kind of this.

Alison Cebulla 1:21:02
Yeah, like so what I'm hearing is like, almost like with a difference. It's almost not in your body. Because when you think when you're thinking about it instead of feeling it.

Anne Sherry 1:21:12
Yeah, I am a seventh thinking head type on the but

Alison Cebulla 1:21:15
in difference to me is almost like you're not like almost like not a feeling just like you said, you know, so. Yeah. So it's more of a thought than

Anne Sherry 1:21:24
yes, yeah. Oh, it's very much in the head. Yeah, indifference. Yeah. All right, Allison,

Tamara Hanna 1:21:30
you gotta do more like pulling away. Pulling

Anne Sherry 1:21:32
up? Yes. Yes.

Tamara Hanna 1:21:35
Separating? I

Anne Sherry 1:21:37
found I didn't want to look at any of you in the eyes, either of us. Like oh,

Alison Cebulla 1:21:42
thank you for sharing that one. And thank you. Okay, tomorrow, for sure. Is Allison, though. You tell you tell me when to stop because I can't do it for myself. Okay, stop now. remorseful, remorseful. So that's like, if I feel like I did something. Oh. Oh, okay. Oh, no, it's feeling very heavy. It's feeling like my like, Tears are coming up. And it's feeling like a like, it's like a blue and black like, dark, heavy around my eyes. And it's like, raining down. And I was talking to my uncle at one of these family gatherings the other night. And I accidentally set an offhand comment that I could tell really hurt him. That was not my intention about his parenting with his son who is struggling. And I love my uncle. And I love my cousin. And I didn't mean for it to come out that way. And I think what comes up for me is like, I want my family members to know how much I love them. And I want to do better and make sure that the way I'm communicating is showing that and I'm feel I feel remorseful that I didn't do that. And it brings up like, how many times I don't do that, you know, and if I could be a little more intentional with people that I love.

Anne Sherry 1:23:16
Thanks for me getting tears.

Alison Cebulla 1:23:19
That way. Thanks for holding space.

Anne Sherry 1:23:22
Yeah, it's hard, but

Tamara Hanna 1:23:24
it is. It's, it's I just hear how you so seamlessly went from the heart emotion that it's connected to such a beautiful thing of your longing. And what's important. Thanks Tamra.

Anne Sherry 1:23:38
I can share one final quote from Mia that sort of speaks to that. She says what I'm speaking of is our ability to hold space for one another to empathize, to make time for connection to care for one another to be part of one another's lives. So I do appreciate that feelings. Like it seemed very present. So

Alison Cebulla 1:24:00
thanks for playing.

Anne Sherry 1:24:01
Never gonna get another guest again

Tamara Hanna 1:24:06
to playfulness.

Anne Sherry 1:24:08
Yeah, playful.

Alison Cebulla 1:24:10
playfulness. Yes, yes.

Tamara Hanna 1:24:13
That's a good one. It's a challenging thing. I think coming from what we come from

Alison Cebulla 1:24:18
is so Tamra, thanks for feeling feelings. Thanks for exploring community care with us. Thanks for sharing your wisdom your presence. So grateful. So thank you so much.

Proxima Parada - Song 1:24:30
Yay, good. Never felt this good before Oh, it's gonna be okay. I've never felt this good before to say I've never felt this good.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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