S2.E1. The Commercialization of Childhood—with guest Dr. Susan Linn, author, psychologist
We interview Dr. Susan Linn about her new book, Who’s Raising the Kids: Big Tech, Big Business, and the Lives of Children. It turns out we've all been indoctrinated from a young age to value buying things due to the United States' lax child protection policies for advertising.
Buy Susan’s book with our Amazon affiliate link to support the podcast.
00:00 Intro
Anne and Alison talk about kids and tech these days including Ryan Kaji, "The Boy King of YouTube," and the Wren Eleanor controversy. We talk about "the Britney Spears effect," in which kids are growing up thinking they have to be successful at a very young age. We compare and contrast Madonna's 80's fame with Britney's 90s fame.
11:37 Interview with Dr. Susan Linn
Susan Linn on Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood
Guest Bio:
Susan Linn is a psychologist, award-winning ventriloquist, and world-renowned expert on creative play and the impact of media and commercial marketing on children. She was the Founding Director of the Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood (now called Fairplay) and is currently a research associate at Boston Children's Hospital and lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. The author of Consuming Kids, The Case for Make Believe, and Who's Raising the Kids?
Susan and her work have been featured on the stage of TED, as well as on “TODAY”, “Good Morning America,” “60 Minutes,” “The Colbert Report,” “Dateline,” NPR’s “Marketplace,” The New York Times, The Washington Post, POLITICO, TIME, The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, and many other outlets. She lives in Brookline, Massachusetts. Find her at consumingkids.com or on twitter at @drsusanlinn.
Show Notes:
Transcription:
Alison Cebulla 0:06
Welcome to the latchkey urchins and friends Podcast. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Anne Sherry 0:10
And I'm Anne Sherry. We are healing trauma with humor, humility, authenticity, imperfection, messiness, and compassion.
Alison Cebulla 0:18
Each week we interview someone on a different childhood trauma and neglect topic. Our hope is to reduce the stigma of talking about mental health and offer some tools to heal.
Anne Sherry 0:27
latchkey urgent are children who came home to an empty house after school each day and watch themselves. We are the children who fought viciously with our siblings. We set toasters on fire making cinnamon toast, and aimlessly roam the neighborhood hoping for something to do
Alison Cebulla 0:43
Urchins adapted to not need anyone. Our spiny prickly parts keep people at a distance.
Anne Sherry 0:49
Sometimes we were the kids, other kids parents warned you about
Alison Cebulla 0:53
sometimes we were the kids who held it all together, saved our families and got perfect grades in school.
Anne Sherry 1:00
Sometimes we were the teens who found comfort in drugs and alcohol.
Alison Cebulla 1:03
Now we are the adults who realize that our nurturance needs were not fully met. And we're healing that inner kid and breaking generational trauma.
Anne Sherry 1:11
So whether you're a latchkey, an urgent or a friend, you are
Alison Cebulla 1:15
wanted here
Hey, Anne, so good. It's been a long, like three, four months off.
Unknown Speaker 1:34
It has it really? Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:38
Has we've done a lot?
Anne Sherry 1:41
Yeah, busy summer.
Alison Cebulla 1:42
Um, but I was I'm super grateful for the break. You went to Nicaragua?
Anne Sherry 1:50
I went to Nicaragua. Yeah. a month. That's amazing. Yes, it was definitely shakes up how you view stuff for sure. I like to get out of like, how we do things in America and the cold messages that come through? So if you can to get out? If you're able to. Yes, back to Yeah. So
Alison Cebulla 2:12
um, we are so excited to kick off season two, with a really exciting interview with the amazing Susan Lin, who just released a book on September 13, with the new press, who's raising the kids big tech, big business and the lives of children. And this book explores the roots and consequences of the monumental shift towards a digitized, commercialized childhood. And so she explores digital technologies, and the tech industry and kind of undermining what we know for children's well being. And we just loved love talking to Susan and I love that she was a ventriloquist on the Mr. Rogers show. Yes. That Yeah. To me,
Anne Sherry 3:06
it felt like sitting with with royalty a little bit like somebody actually worked with Fred Rogers. Yeah. And you can feel it on her. When we were reading her materials. Before we interviewed her, I was like, We're doomed. Over. insurmountable problem. Yes. And then after talking with her, she was I got that, like, Fred Rogers glow. Like, we can do this.
Alison Cebulla 3:31
I know. I know. She's, you guys are gonna love this interview with her. So an like, when it comes to like tech, commercials commercialization of childhood. How do you relate to that
Anne Sherry 3:46
that was thinking about? We were because it was like the 80s is when it started. They really took the laws away, and they started marketing to children's. So I think that some of my TV, most of my binge TV was in the 70s. So maybe when I was still a little protected, there was only three channels. But I also, you know, as much as we talked about the latchkey experience, we did go outside, we had to use our imaginations. And that's something that she's really talking about as missing now. I mean, we didn't have a ton of stuff, we'd go into the woods and build bike ramps and, you know, hurt ourselves and but we didn't take a bunch of pre done toys that were telling us how to think you know, so I'm appreciating that and it's not great. Now. You go into Target or everything is like all the imaginations it's done. It's a complete product, you will you know, even like the Legos and stuff, they're all that whole rise of like, you don't just get a tub of Legos now and just build stuff. You are building
Alison Cebulla 4:53
exact thing. commercialised Star Wars ship
Anne Sherry 4:57
and from a little book that says put this Sitting here and this the Yeah, yeah. So, yes.
Alison Cebulla 5:05
Yeah, we had one of our best toys as a kid, there were a few years, there was like a little recession in the early 90s, where we just didn't have a ton of money in my family when I was like, you know, 65678 that, you know, range. And so that was great for our creativity because we we couldn't buy the fancy stuff. And so my uncle's all worked in construction. So my dad asked one of our uncle's to make us wooden blocks out of leftover wood from the construction site. And this was our best toy, it cost $0 is a leftover wood that was going to be thrown away anyway. And we had these blocks, we had so much fun with these blocks. And my dad was so good to actually playing with us like he would he's the kind of dad that like, got on the floor, you know, wrestled around with us and like, yeah, you know, actually played. And so we would make these wooden block castles and then we would on like, you know, either side of the living room, and then we would throw blocks over and try and like, break down each other's castles like
Anne Sherry 6:10
so. Oh, and that became Minecraft, I think. Like Minecraft or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Because I'm also wondering, you know, like, how much is August getting or, I don't know, when he was young we were we were still living on our farm that's now an Airbnb. So he was outdoors a lot, he could run around. And I don't know, there was a lot of chores to do. And since we moved in town, and it's smaller, and it's less there is this, like, it's hard to send kids out to play, they're kind of they come home and they're stuck in these stuck inside often. I mean, like or their backyard or you know, but this being able to roam, we're missing that and I don't know what to even I know I rebel prescribed play, you're already like an amazing basketball player at second grade or something. I know it's very comparative, or what type what is your kid in? And how am I
Alison Cebulla 7:11
call that I used to do? You know, I worked in life coaching for a long time. And I could really, really feel that from my coaching clients of that need to like prove themselves by like, 22 and I at the time, this was before Britney Spears, like, you know, had major significant whatever meltdowns publicly recently. But at the time, I called it the Britney Spears effect. Because she was so so so famous by like 1615 1617 And so I was in I think I was like 14 when she was 16 or something like that. So we all grew up watching her and and and and thinking I have to I'm Mark Zuckerberg is another great. A great one. Because he think he was like, you know, in college when he created Facebook. And so for for older millennials, we are watching the stars and it puts so much pressure on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Anne Sherry 8:06
I can remember that. I don't think I can remember watching Madonna and desperately seeking Susan and I was in Spartanburg. And God I don't remember when. Lou? Early 80s Yeah, I so wanted to. We wanted to dress like her. Yeah, you could not find shit. Like if you didn't live in New York. Like it was impossible to find stuff. So
Alison Cebulla 8:32
I'm googling though. When did Madonna get famous? How old was she? So she was 24. So that's what I'm trying to say is like it's really shifted, where because of Nickelodeon and the Disney Channel. Is that watching these childhoods get ruined? Because now we're seeing that right with Britney Spears is that you can't just take a kid's childhood and commercialize it, you cannot you will ruin this person. Just like the the young woman who just wrote the book that you have been reading. I'm glad my mom died. Yeah, that's the number one nonfiction book right now. It's resonating. But um, when so Madonna though, was 24 when she got big, but like, for my generation, we're seeing like Britney Spears. She was on the Mickey Mouse Club. Like when she was little and then she was already being sexualized as a child teenager. So that's damaging. That is damaging to kids. You know, I think it's one thing to watch Madonna when she's like 24 and you know can you know continues to grow from there but watching like, child stars and then thinking you have to already be a success by 19 is bad. Yeah.
Anne Sherry 9:40
Yeah. Somehow that's it and that's what then becomes the norm that kids are wanting to dress like or be like, or and I don't even know what to say about Instagram or I think even Susan brings up that kid that has a million dollar Business on reviewing toys.
Alison Cebulla 10:01
Oh yeah, yeah, that I know. We'll put that in the show notes that I've watched some of those it they're really weird to watch and yeah, yeah, I don't think I don't think that parents are not every parent is like emotionally mature enough to realize like that putting their kid on the internet like that is probably not great. Yeah. What's that really? What's that example everyone's been talking about that recently that little girl Do you know I'm talking about that little girl and her mom is like 20 and she's doing all these tic TOCs at some of them and she's like a toddler and some of them are kind of suggestive like she kind of dresses her toddler up like a adult and she looks kind of sexy. And they're like, you guys, there's pedophiles on Tik Tok
Anne Sherry 10:47
like don't do that stuff or whatever. Maybe
Alison Cebulla 10:51
Ren that's her name Ryan Eleanor. I went and looked at some of the videos and I'm disturbed. I am disturbed but the mom is so young. She I think she probably was a teen when she got pregnant. So that's the thing is like the mom does not have the maturity to understand what she's doing.
Anne Sherry 11:05
Wait a minute. This has like, half a billion likes on some stuff and 17 million fans. That's yeah. I don't know where it's all going. I need to play these. Oh,
Alison Cebulla 11:17
Susan light. Everybody should listen to Susan. Go back to Mr. Robert. Shadows. What's up, enjoy? Yeah, completely.
We are so excited to be here with Susan Lin. So Susan just had a book come out who's raising the kids. And we're so excited to talk to her about that book. And just a little bit about Susan is She's a psychologist award winning ventriloquist and a world renowned expert on creative play and the impact of media commercial marketing on children. She was the founding director, a campaign of Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood now called fair play, currently research associate at Boston Children's Hospital and lecturer on psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, the author of consuming kids the case for make believe and who's raising the kids were so excited to to have you here. Thanks for joining us, Susan.
Susan Linn 12:26
I'm so happy to be here and talk with you.
Alison Cebulla 12:28
Yay. So before we ask you all the latchkey questions, can you tell our listeners just a little bit about your book that just came out?
Susan Linn 12:40
It's called who's raising the kids big tech, big business in the lives of children. And it's about how our digitize commercialized culture affects children's values, relationships and learning. And it's also about what we can do about it as a society and also in our own families. That's, that's so great.
Anne Sherry 13:06
So well timed. Everybody's lost right now. Yes. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 13:10
So were you a latchkey kid, which means kind of like, were you left at home alone a lot. Were you an urchin meaning like, no feelings were discussed? Are you a friend? And we can kind of roll that into you know, what was the emotional environment of your childhood?
Susan Linn 13:26
So my mother worked, which was actually unusual in the 1950s. And so um, and I don't have like terrible memories of you know, coming home alone, except for one. I was. I was a good kid, I, you know, always did well in school. And in third grade. I got my report card, and we had H's SS in use honors, satisfactory, unsatisfactory, okay. I had all H's and a U in handwriting. I flunked handwriting. In teresting. I was devastated. And I remember coming home and my mother wasn't there. And I actually didn't have a key to the house. I usually went to a friend's house, and I just sat on the stoop crying waiting for her to come home.
Anne Sherry 14:25
Oh, it was like the the fear of disappointing her being in trouble. Do you remember just it just No,
Susan Linn 14:34
I wasn't afraid of disappointing her. I was just devastated that I had failed. Oh,
Alison Cebulla 14:43
I know what Yeah. What was her reaction?
Susan Linn 14:46
You know, it's funny. I don't remember her reaction. So maybe. I remember seeing her come to the steps and being, you know, so relieved that she was home Good. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 15:03
Do you mind my asking what did your mom do for work?
Susan Linn 15:06
My mother was a pioneer in early childhood education in Michigan.
Unknown Speaker 15:12
Wow, go Mom.
Anne Sherry 15:14
I'm loving your legacy. Episode on legacy burdens. Yeah. This
Alison Cebulla 15:20
is legacy strength legacy.
Anne Sherry 15:23
Bring this legacy. Yeah.
Susan Linn 15:24
I don't feel like her early childhood work was a burden. My parents were very, very left wing, politically. I mean, to the point that that they were afraid that they were going to be arrested in the 1950s. Got
Alison Cebulla 15:42
it. Got it. Okay. You know, that was, yeah. So
Susan Linn 15:46
out of them. But that's the burden. But my mother's early childhood interest in her late childhood. I think I really just benefited from that. Actually.
Alison Cebulla 15:56
That's so great. Sounds like we have been, or this has been a question for me as I study Child Trauma is like, Where are the kids that had the really good childhood? So Susan, thank you for being here.
Susan Linn 16:13
I not sure it was. I'm, you know, I did not have a terrible childhood. I was not, you know, abused, you know, or anything like that. But, um, you know, I was terrified of nuclear war. I have 430. Shoot. Yeah. were worried that they were going to be arrested. I mean, they made arrangements. Oh, wow. So there was a lot of theory,
Anne Sherry 16:40
trying to differentiate between, you know, this, the person, just the intersection of that too, but the personal childhoods that went okay. But just culturally, do you know, the Elvis movie that came out? And you know, so we're watching it with August, my 10 year old and like, the President was assassinated, his brother was assassinated. Martin Luther King was assassinated. You know, it was stressful times. Yeah. Nam and? Yeah, yeah. So it's, there's definitely, that was going through the psyche of,
Susan Linn 17:11
yeah. You know, people don't think that kids are affected by what's happening in the world around them. You know, they just don't think about it, but they are. I mean, right. Yeah, I mean, right. Yeah, there I was with, you know, being afraid for my parents, you know, think afraid that I was going to be abandoned, you know.
Alison Cebulla 17:39
I, right. Yeah. So some some fear. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for yeah, thanks for sharing that with us. Kind of the the feeling in your household as a kid. So, latchkey recipes. Susan, what did you make for yourself as a kid food wise.
Susan Linn 17:59
So my food memories kind of backwards. In a way I was a younger sister. So it was my older sister who made lunch for us at that time, you know, we could go walk home for lunch. And so she was in charge of making lunch and my sister loved Lipton's chicken noodle soup. And in my memory, we had Lipton's chicken noodle soup every single day. And the result of that is that I had never ever so. So that's my laptop peppering you, as I remember it. She thought so. Wow.
Alison Cebulla 18:48
It's like a, like a packet. But you add water to. It's like a packet, wasn't
Susan Linn 18:53
it? Pour hot water.
Anne Sherry 18:57
I remember that. We had that to Susan.
Susan Linn 19:00
So Frank, not every day. Yeah, that same year, my mother was teaching way far out. We I grew up in Detroit. She was teaching in a way for out in the suburbs. It took her a really long time to get there. So my sister was in charge of lunch. My father was in charge of breakfast, and my father had very strong feelings about what you have for breakfast. And so what we had for breakfast, we had eggs, and we had soft boiled eggs, as I remember it practically every single day. And that's another thing. I've never had a soft boiled egg since that year.
Alison Cebulla 19:42
So Oh, that's so interesting. You had your fill. Well, thank you, Susan. Those are fun, fun childhood recipes. Not fun for you anymore, but thanks for those So let's jump into talking about all the fun, all the fun things related to child, child neglect. Tech, you know, kind of, you know, you've had a long career in childhood education and, you know, activism for really good childcare. So can you tell us a little bit more about your work and kind of what drew you to do this work?
Susan Linn 20:25
Well, I began life as a ventriloquist. And I, you know, I basically earn my living that way for a lot of my life. And I was, I worked with Fred Rogers. Yeah, I was on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and made videotapes, I puppets about difficult issues for kids did play therapy with puppets at Boston Children's Hospital, helping kids cope with having heart surgery, automobile accidents, having cancer, bone marrow transplants. So, you know, basically, a lot of my work was about helping children talk about feelings, through their play, and, you know, when, I mean, when we play, if we're really playing, we're really playing, you know, creatively, it becomes a safe space, for expressing our feelings, and for really telling the truth and being who we really are. So, um, so the well being of children was always important to me. And then, in the 1990s, I was raising my daughter, and I was working with children at something that was called the children's AIDS program, and it was a daycare center for kids with HIV. So, and all of a sudden, or or maybe it was gradually but I began to see the commercialization of children's lives.
Alison Cebulla 22:08
Yeah, so you talk about in your book, how, like, a main mission is to restrict a company's ability to market products for, for profit to children. And, you know, we really couldn't agree more. And in one episode, we with Ariana, we talked about sugary breakfast cereals for quite a long time, and just how much those were marketed to children on TV. And, you know, before we started recording, you were telling us about latchkey kids, a lot of them are raised by TV. And I just remember seeing all these commercials on TV, and I really wanted, you know, Lucky Charms, and I still have the Lucky Charms jingle magically delicious, like from the commercial, like this stuff gets in our heads for kids. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about what you have found and kind of what you address in your book about why childhood is harmed by for profit endeavors, and marketing and products? And all these sorts of things?
Susan Linn 23:08
Yeah, you know, children are not adults and teeny tiny bodies, their brains are growing and developing their judgment, you know, as you know, but with you know, judgment doesn't really fully develop until, you know, we're in our 20s. And, and, and so, they don't have the kind of judgment, they don't have the cognitive, you know, abilities to, you know, predict what's going to happen to think about consequences, that's something that you acquire, as you grow. And yet they have the same depth of emotions, you know, that we do. And so marketers work with child psychologists to exploit children's vulnerabilities in order to sell them stuff. And I think that I mean, I believe, and, and, you know, the kind of world that I want to live in, is where children are valued, and where the best interest what's best for children really takes precedence over pretty much everything else. And so, but if these huge, you know, conglomerates, the tech industry, they're not interested in the wellbeing of children, that's not their purpose, their purpose, their primary purpose is to generate profit for their shareholders. And and so they make decisions that harm children. Like for instance, like you know, you talked about sugary cereals on on the show and certainly childhood obesity is you know, a problem it is but I think what's what's even a deeper problem is that marketing doesn't sell just sell products, it sells values, and behaviors. And the primary value in all of this marketing is that the things we buy will make us happy. You need the things that companies are selling in order to be happy, successful, smart, you know, whatever. And, and at the same time, we're living, you know, in an in an age where the the fate of the planet is really at stake. And, and consumption is absolutely linked to global warming. And not only kids, kids, so that's huge. So the idea that we're selling kids stuff all the time and telling them they need things, when what we really need to do is cut back on consumption. I mean, that's a terrible travesty. But but you know, on a more personal level, you know, kids who adopt materialistic values are actually actually less happy than their peers who have less materialistic values. So,
Anne Sherry 26:14
adults have great statistics on that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's studied, and right there in numbers. Now. It's not working, you know, so,
Susan Linn 26:25
no, it's good here. But what
Anne Sherry 26:29
how did we get here? Why is this what we're doing with this one beautiful planet and our one beautiful lives? And, you know, it's, I mean, yeah, I,
Susan Linn 26:38
I can actually answer some of that. Okay. It, I mean, it goes, the current age that we're in the digital age, and, and the, you know, the primacy of, of these tech companies who have, by the way, the most powerful techniques ever, reaching all of us, including children, for keeping us glued, online for selling us things more than ever before. But it goes back to the beginning of television. When when that, you know, they gave the the spectrum, they gave it away for free, and allow companies to, you know, start advertising on television. And then in the 1977 days, AD, activists were trying to get advertising to children banned. And the Federal Trade Commission actually said that they were going to ban advertising to children under the age of eight, and bad junk food advertising to kids under the age of 12. This is before the childhood obesity epidemic, there was so much pressure on Congress, that Congress actually defunded the FTC for a while, limited their ability to regulate marketing to kids. And then in 1984, Ronald Reagan deregulated the Federal Communications Commission, it became okay to make programs for the sole purpose of selling toys. And so that in we have almost no regulation around marketing to kids, and certainly, you know, so far, just about not around the tech industry now. And so, you know, kids today are subjected to autoplay, you know, like on YouTube, where, you know, things just keep coming, just keep going and going, or it means leaderboards, where they can see who's winning, you know, and so that, you know, that keeps you on, or push notices, which keep pulling you back, you know, to your devices, yarns are subjected to them, and hits are subjected to them. And one harm that we don't really talk about is the amount that is relevant to your show, is the way that the tech industry comes between parents, excuse me comes between parents and children. Yeah. And what what the tech industry does its market market, things that they can do, that are actually things that parents and caregivers used to do that, you know, devices can read to your kids, they can tell stories, they can help kids with their homework. And so you know, what, what they're getting, what they want is for kids to bond with their devices. And and in and one particularly Like I think something that we don't talk about a lot are our personal assistants, which see you know, like Alexa, Amazon's Alexa. Yeah. Kids can access kids Alexa through something called the Echo Dot for kids, which is this Darlene little tiger speaker. So
Anne Sherry 30:27
it sounds like Joe Cool with the cigarette this cute camo and
Susan Linn 30:37
you know, I actually remember when my daughter was two, we were at a shopping mall, and there was a huge display of Joe Camel. And she just had it right for it. Right? I mean, that's true, though. You know,
Anne Sherry 30:52
Susan, this is abuse. I was looking through your stuff and I just circled bunches of stuff and I said this, we are being abused. I mean, this is abuse. It's like a narcissistic parent or I don't know what it feels some personality disorder put it in but it feels abusive.
Alison Cebulla 31:10
Very Oh, but it just it feels very on brand for American culture of of kind of prioritizing multi level marketing. You know, and I don't know if Susan you want to speak to that at all, but it just feels so on brand. Like I just viewed the amount that we just love stuff, which as you're saying we just love to buy stuff we've been taught that stuff will make us happy. And I'm so glad we have you on here because now I'm putting all the pieces together that television television has been instrumental and now of course, you know, which has evolved into like these persons
Anne Sherry 31:39
to the latchkey kids that yeah, the latchkey kids at home. I can remember us watching Tom and Jerry. I mean, we did go out and play kickball, we only had three or 12 channels. I can't remember. So it did get fed up. And that wasn't enough. They were like, Oh, shit, the kids are going outside and playing kickball. We better get them back. Yeah. And I guarantee you like, you know, yeah, that's
Susan Linn 32:00
really true. I mean, in in consuming kids I wrote about, about this and how the marketers, I mean, they really did think, wow, kids are home alone. Let's start targeting those groups. And that was really the intention of tweens. Because it was, you know, the preteens mostly who were the ones who were home alone. I mean, older kids. This was a new demographic.
Alison Cebulla 32:28
Right, right.
Anne Sherry 32:30
We already felt like crap enough. Emotional love and household. Know It. We were right for I mean, it does feel it and I never know is it like this thing that's just perpetuating itself? Or it has this sinister is that who, you know, where there's a sinister quality to it, or maybe they don't think it's sinister, is just a lack of emotional maturity as a as a culture, like,
Susan Linn 32:56
I think, you know, it, I as a country, and I think going back to the beginning, we valued freedom and personal responsibility, which are important, but we sometimes or maybe often value those two things above responsibility to the community altruism, sharing, you know, those kinds of values. And, and so basically, you know, corporations, what, what it has been, and that might be changing, but what it has been, you know, for, you know, a long time as corporations can pretty much do anything they want, and people just have to cope. And so in, in my world, the world of you know, my concern about the commercialization of children's lives and kids being targeted. It's that corporations can, you know, market to kids, and it's up to parents to cope. Parents should just say no, and, you know, that works so well for drug abuse. I mean,
Anne Sherry 34:02
yeah, right.
Susan Linn 34:06
And one thing, I mean, one of the most, you know, egregious things that companies do, is, is is encouraged kids to nag their parents, you
Anne Sherry 34:18
call it their turn pester power and nag factor. There's a bunch of terms that they I mean, I cannot imagine sitting in a marketing meeting, like these are people probably that have children who go home and have their kids nagging on them. And you did that, like you created that.
Susan Linn 34:36
I think, you know, that probably what, what they believe, is that, you know, it's up to parents to protect to protect kids, and I think they believe that they are protecting their kids, you know, until they find out that maybe they aren't, but the idea that we have a whole industry that a wants to come between parents and children. And, and be wants to encourage kids to, as a colleague of mine once said, make parents lives absolutely miserable. I mean, that's, you know, it would be hysterically funny if it weren't so awful that it's really happening. And you know, and it happens all around the world.
Anne Sherry 35:21
And there are a few countries it wasn't Denmark or some, some of them. Sweden, some country, Sweden are doing this. Yeah.
Susan Linn 35:31
The province of Quebec, they, they have laws about marketing to consume television. But, you know, I mean, television seems a little quaint now. I mean, yeah, exactly. Now, you know, it, you know, it's, it's online. Now, interestingly, what most kids are, what most young kids do online is watch television, or they watch videos. So they've changed devices. But the difference is that the way things are now the device can know a lot about the child. And so personally, target advertising or programming, designed to exploit their vulnerabilities. And, and to get them hooked on whatever it is they're, you know, they're doing. And, you know, with I mean, I started talking about the personal assistants, I bought an echo dot for kids, just to see what, you know what it was like, and so, right about this, I, they have a feature that's called I'm bored. So I said, I was pretending to be, you know, a young kid. I said, Alexa, I'm bored. And so what Alexa suggested to me, were five games that were all based on national brands. And I did. And there it was all based on that, you know, Barbie? wizarding world?
Anne Sherry 37:05
Oh, my God.
Susan Linn 37:07
I mean, so, yeah, well, and then, um, I have a chapter about commercialism, and racism and the way that racism can be embedded in commercialized culture, including, there's been a lot about this and in search engines. And so I woke up one morning, I thought, well, Alexa, it's kind of a search engine. So I went downstairs to my kitchen where the little cutie Tiger was sitting. And I said, Alexa, what are African American girls? And it said, African American girls are the fastest growing segment of the juvenile justice system. That's what it said, this is yes. Oh, yes. I know. And, and then I said, What are African American boys, it was a little garbled, but essentially, it said, there are boys and many of them were struggling with learning, and reading. And so I know, and, and so this is from a company that is claiming to be able to help kids with homework. And I, I am, you know, it's not as though parents and, and, you know, librarians and teachers, it's possible for them to pass on this information. And, you know, yeah, and rate racist views, but they can be held accountable in some way. And most parents, I mean, if you get one of these echo dots for kids, kid to do them alone, because what the condoms advertise, this is a way to keep your child occupied and a safe space to use other things, you know, and,
Anne Sherry 39:04
well, yeah, so don't spend time together. And this is where I get kind of layered around this is I have, you know, people, young moms in practice, or even moms that are sort of regretting or dads as well, but they've lost trust in their ability. They're like I'm doing it wrong. Like there's some way that there was this absolute right way to get enough tummy time there's an anxiety that's like pervasive among parents like because it's coming externally there's so little trust like it's good enough you know, if you spend time you know, as I'm, you know, generally trying to get what I just find those trusting places but also as a latchkey kid, becoming a parent, I would notice like, boredom felt bad and you don't like I like, I don't know why sort of having kids was boring a little bit at times. So I was like God is this from, you know, like I was remembering having the Sears catalog, we would just circle stuff and like in our list for Christmas would change based on a commercial it was like Scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch, scratch, I don't want that. And Hungry Hippo made it to the top. I got hungry hippo from Santa, I was over it in like four seconds. It's the stupidest game on the planet, but the marker elevated it. So I don't know, I just go in a little just reading your stuff. I was like, Holy heck, there was so much more at play there, you know, then we're like, Well, we had parents that weren't home and it was like this evil like, I don't know. That was like,
Alison Cebulla 40:48
let me that kind of segues into a question that we had about the importance of, of kind of play, you know, and, um, you know, so and you kind of touched on whilst parenting can be boring sometimes. And so I do kind of understand that maybe some parents are like, I can't do it anymore. Or, you know, and then we'll be that we also have the problem where because no one can earn a living wage, you know, a lot of parents are working like three jobs. So if you could just hand that your kid a tablet or whatever, while you're not home, there's so many different issues. But, um, optimally, I guess, Susan, what, what's, what's kind of in what you found in the research optimally, a great way for parents to engage with their kids. And, you know, in the kind of like spontaneous play, or maybe the importance of boredom or any of these themes.
Susan Linn 41:36
Well, you asked about 732 questions.
Alison Cebulla 41:39
I did. I'm so sorry. I want to hear that. I do we want to we want to keep you
Anne Sherry 41:45
like I do, Susan just started talking and stuff.
Susan Linn 41:51
Whoa, well, um, first of all, having a young child, it's not it can be boring, it is boring at times. Okay,
Anne Sherry 42:03
at times, I mean,
Susan Linn 42:07
and, and, and so, that's one and then, you know, now today we have these, these are, you know, our smartphones, which are constantly calling to us, it's like the sirens to Odysseus, you know, calling us. Yeah, I'll take you away, you know, and so, but what researchers have found, is that they were observing parents at a playground. And what they noticed is that when parents were on their smartphones, they didn't respond when their kids were calling them, unlike if they were doing something analog, like talking to other parents, but they were so engrossed in what they basically didn't hear, or, or whatever, didn't hear their kids in some way, or had just screened everything out that their, their device, and, and that when they did respond, they responded with, with irritation. And, on top of that, the reverse is true when toddlers are engaged, you know, with with tech, it's harder to get them away than if they're playing with analog taught choice. And also, they also, you know, have tantrums when they have to get off. So, you know, basically, the, these devices are so powerful, and the two techniques that that that companies use, you know, which are like in general persuasive design, you know, they're all there to keep us engaged. And, and so, and also the devices are built for individual use. And so one, one problem, I mean, there are problems when parents even ebooks and you know, the tech industry includes encourages parents to do ebooks with kids. Well, first of all the bells and whistles on ebooks, all those moving things actually prevent the kind of conversation that that that occurs when you're actually reading a book with kids that does promote literacy. But also, if you're reading with an e book, parents don't snuggle with their kids. It's harder to snuggle with the kids with this device. It's hurting my gosh, so there's less of that cod. There's less cuddling going on. And so
Alison Cebulla 44:38
you know, we just never thought about Yeah, so
Susan Linn 44:41
so there's there's one thing you know that that the parents could do. And that is if you're taking kids to play and whatever. Try not to bring your phone or try not to put your phone on silent. Bring a book or if you don't want to read, if you're good at crafts, then you know, knit or scouts do you know do something else? So I don't think parents should feel guilty about being bored. But what is the case that being on the phone, first of all models that behavior and makes the phone more desirable for your kids, but also, it's so engrossing and compelling that you know, you don't want to respond with irritation when your kids are calling you. And nobody likes to be ignored, and kids don't like to be ignored, ignored. And one thing I described in the book is I was walking through a park near my house, and there was a mother sitting on a park bench on her phone, and there was a toddler lugging an enormous branch. And so I just stopped watch. So he's lucky. And he goes, Mom, mom, and she goes, Huh, he goes, he gets closer he goes, Mom, mom, and she goes, it gets right up to Rico's ma, ma, and she goes, and he slugged her. Oh slugged her. So I, I don't believe in corporal punishment for parents or for kids. Yeah, my sympathies were we're, you know, we're with the child. But yeah, you don't have to. You don't have to give in to every your child's request. Yeah. But it really helps if you acknowledge them, even if you're saying, I hear you. But wait just a minute. I'm busy right now. Yeah. But right. So yeah, I mean, it, you know, it affects the kids, it affects the parents. But one other thing that I think it's really important is that this is a societal problem. And it needs to be fixed by society. And basically, it's a social justice issue. You know, and it's about the rights of children to grow up, and the rights for parents to raise them without being undermined by greed. You know, we have that right. And that's why I and my colleagues back in 2000, founded a campaign for Commercial Free Childhood, which is now called fair play. And you can find it if fairplay for kids.org. But that's, you know, an activist organization does, you know taking on the biggest corporations in the world, about how their children
Anne Sherry 47:49
100%. And it's almost seemed that too, like child care goes into that, like reducing the stress that where parents have to be away from children a fair amount or, like, because I don't know when you're at that does really frazzled areas, you're like, Fine, just take the device. And so but yeah, that, yeah, all structurally in many ways that this has been going in the wrong direction. And there was that one movie too. Just quickly, what was the movie that was calling out the social media, the social something? Oh, this social network? And all that. It was just, was that what it was called? No, the ones that were. It was a it was a documentary? No. Anyways, the ones that the people that have brought forth this technology, do not let their children use it. They were clear like this stuff is dangerous. And on Lamma
Alison Cebulla 48:41
I don't social dilemma.
Anne Sherry 48:44
social dilemma, right. Sorry.
Susan Linn 48:46
Social. That's humane technology. Did that? Yeah. So
Alison Cebulla 48:52
it's a good documentary.
What are some You've mentioned a couple solutions or solutions, knitting, you know, taking an activity, which you're already inspiring. I don't even have kids. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I could do some I could do some non tech hobbies. That sounds good. What are some other solutions? Kind of like optimally? Will optimally what what kind of world are you looking to create?
Susan Linn 49:20
Okay, well, I'm looking to create a world as I said, where children are, are valued. And we're, we understand that children are not adults, but they are human beings. And also where we understand childhood experiences. It's you to both know, you know, affect you for the rest of your life. I mean, yes, the values and behaviors and the way we see the world, the way we relate to other people all go back, you know, to childhood and and I'm and where we're Being human means something. And, and one, one of the things, and human relationships matter. And, and so one of the things that's happening is we're living in a world where technology is only going to get more and more and more seductive, more creative. I mean, you know, the metaverse, which is going to be so powerful, and also filled with advertising and run by corporations. And so we really need to have a world where children learn to value life that you learn to value human life, they learn to value nature, they learn to value, you know, what's going on around them. And when I said, this is a societal, you know, problem, I mean, I've been doing this advocacy work for over 20 years. And for the first time, there actually are bills in Congress that have made it out of committee, and are supposed to, you know, hopefully going to be voted on that address that actually do are trying to set limits on the tech industry and the techniques they use to exploit children. So that's a, you know, that's encouraging, whether these bills get through whether they pass whether they get watered down, all of that, you know, is an unknown, but the fact that they're actually there. I think that's really, really important and, and hopeful.
Alison Cebulla 51:48
And so what can I say of hope? Yeah? What can we do like for our listeners who want to get involved in this movement? What's, what can what can parents do? What can activists do?
Susan Linn 52:01
Okay, so one thing, go to theraplay for kids, got.org. They have all sorts of things, you know, that people can do, and they have a screen time Action Network, you know, that helps people who want to do something about excessive screen time. You know, if you want to change things on a national level, if you're not going to use do that alone, I mean, that's why we started therapy. Because we needed a national organization that would take on this issue. So that is one thing. And for parents, first of all, stop feeling guilty. That doesn't help you. It's hard to be a parent. We live in a we live in a society that doesn't support parents, there was just an article in The New York Times today about how parents are having troubles getting kids into after school care, because there aren't enough after school teachers and you know, they're full, and I've been parents and kids. So all all of that it's real. So in in in that context, try to limit your own time. With your with technology. Career. Were a dumb watch. Don't get a smartwatch if you have a smartwatch. Don't wear it when you're around your kids, because that's just going to pull you in because of all of the things that you can do. And for goodness sake, don't get a smart watch for your young child. They're pushing those on kids now. So you don't want you don't want to be able to see emails and do texting or something. Something you're wearing. And the other thing is don't rely on your smartphone to tell you what time it is. I did that I got a smartphone. I thought I don't need to wear a watch. And then I noticed every time I looked to see what time it was, I checked my impatient. I did other things. Yeah, that's the brilliance the diabolical brilliance of having everything in one device.
Alison Cebulla 54:19
Flashlight calculator.
Susan Linn 54:23
Don't with especially you know, with babies and toddlers, except for video chatting with adults who are far away who love them. There's no benefit to babies and toddlers to be on a screen. Really. So you know when you're when you're thinking about toys, get toys that are open ended. As the saying goes The best toys are 90% child and only
Alison Cebulla 54:54
10. Yeah, yes. Yes.
Susan Linn 54:58
The best choice just lie there. or until you know, you do something to make them into something or transform them. And, and the best selling toys are toys that look good in an ad. And so but they're the toys that are often, you know, linked to media characters linked to online stuff that really diminish instead of encourage children's creativity. So and the idea that kids have young kids have to get on online, they have to use devices to prepare them for jobs in the future. Well, that's ridiculous. Because first of all, as one tech guy said, you know, we make these devices for people who are brain dead. I mean, they're so easy to use, but also the technology is going to change, we're already shifting to voice so you know, swiping and tapping and all of that, that's not going to be helpful to your child, what your child is going to need. Your children are going to need experiences with creativity with generating ideas, with cooperation, with follow through with, with, you know, being able to take initiative and, and see something through to the end. They're not going to get that from a device. That sounds
Anne Sherry 56:21
like all the things we're going to need to solve climate crisis, certainly to talk with each other to have ideas to, you know, yeah, to see things through to the end to persevere.
Alison Cebulla 56:34
Right, well, yeah,
Susan Linn 56:35
we don't need to be happy.
Alison Cebulla 56:39
I just so appreciate everything that you said about helping us get to a more human centered society and culture. It's just so needed everyone go buy Susan's book, we'll put the link in the show notes.
Anne Sherry 56:51
Yeah. Yeah. So one big question we always do Susan is, is that why can't we care? And I Have you have you have at why do we care about each other? Why do we care about anything in some ways? And you have provided an enormous answer. Yeah, a big block of
Alison Cebulla 57:09
I have this is huge for really I'm coming back to this treated that way. Why can't we care? Oh, because of marketing and programmed from a young age, you know, and it just gets in there. I'm just I'm really blown away you know, when or so? Yeah, of how my childhood TV indoctrinated me to want things
Susan Linn 57:29
and it doesn't have to be this way. That's right created environment we can change this environment. It's just it's not going to come easy. It's not going to come from the top down. It's going to come from the bottom up.
Anne Sherry 57:43
Yes. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 57:44
So feelings we all time
so this
Unknown Speaker 58:02
feeling feels to go
Alison Cebulla 58:05
right. It's feelings. We'll time so this is a game where we each share we each pick a feeling and then or I will pick a feeling for you randomly and then you just share when you felt that feeling. And and you know what I'm going to do and I'm going to have you go first. Yeah, I'm gonna have you okay.
Anne Sherry 58:25
And where it is in your body? We Yes, we embody embodiment. We know that embodiment helps. Helps feelings be deeper. I think so we kind of try to find it in around our bodies.
Alison Cebulla 58:40
So okay, I have real feelings. We'll dot com in front of me and I'm just got my finger going around and and you tell me when to stop. Okay, stop. Oh, gosh. I'm so sorry. And despair.
Anne Sherry 58:55
Now
Alison Cebulla 58:59
tell me more preparing to
Anne Sherry 59:01
talk with Susan. Yeah. Okay, hang on. Now, well, you are very courageously bringing forth this but there is a quality of despair. I'll just use that. Like, immediately. I can feel tears behind my eyes. I can feel stuff in my chest. Kinda like just almost a nervous bubbly. She like oh, this is scary. You know? It feels a little scary. Um, so is that despair? Perfect. Yeah, I'm gonna go with despair. I can feel the hope over here too. Because Susan like you're very inspiring and hopeful but um, but just I but I do. I am a big believer in we have to feel it for it to be real. So to feel the despair of what this mess that we're in then we can solve? Yeah, that I'm going to pause a little bit and just that makes me know it actually is real rather than like, Oh, I wonder what's on sale on Amazon? You know? Because I don't want to feel it, but yeah, so it's there's some grief. Yeah, so that but I'm like I can feel hope over here but I'm just gonna be like no no no stay with stay with how how big this actually is it really is big it's not a small problem. Yeah, it's big
Susan Linn 1:00:21
but it's not solvable unsolvable. I,
Anne Sherry 1:00:25
I am so grateful to speak with you today. Yeah.
Alison Cebulla 1:00:31
Okay, so I'll go next and then and then and then Susan will go so and why don't you tell me when to stop?
Anne Sherry 1:00:37
Okay, stop.
Alison Cebulla 1:00:40
Okay, I got I got confused Okay, so I Okay, so lately I've been feeling really confused about the current state of work because I left my job in March and I started diligently applying in July for new jobs. So I've had two months, I've applied for about 35 jobs. And I've had five of those companies said, yes, we want to interview you. And they've been really, really, really very confusing. More so than any time in history. So I know that there's like burnout, employees are more burned out than ever about COVID. Especially because I work in the healthcare field. So I'm getting like a lot of like, oh, like, sorry, I didn't follow up on this. Like a lot of those a lot more than usual, like some ghosting. Some, like people who work for major US universities, like ghosting, like not showing up to the interview. And not not rescheduling. Not even not even emailing me just not showing up. This has happened multiple times. Like what a well respected university. So I'm very confused about what's going on. It's unprecedented for me trying to get a job. And I'm so confused. It's confused is like a little bit more of a heady kind of thinking it's I think it's less than the body it's more like in like just disembodied, I think. Because when I really actually sit with the embodiment, there's more sadness there. There's actually just more sadness. So it's, it's interesting, I think confused as almost like a overlayer have some deeper, like some frustration, some sadness. Yeah. And so the frustration and sadness really feels like my body gets kind of tight, my fists kind of clench a little bit, but then the sadness is more in my chest. So that's confused. So see, Susan, okay, um, I'm gonna just kind of go around the feelings we all and so you tell me when to stop. And that's your feeling.
Susan Linn 1:02:52
Okay. Stop.
Alison Cebulla 1:02:56
Disappointed,
Susan Linn 1:02:57
disappointed. Wow. I guess that I'm disappointed in. I'm disappointed that that people don't understand the importance of taking care of children. I'm more than that. Also, I'm more than disappointed. But it is disappointing that they don't that you know, that they don't understand how valuable not just their children are, but other people's children. And I'm disappointed that people when people don't understand the importance of carrying about, as I said before other people's children and I think that disappointment it's in my shoulders and and my back. Got it. I mean, it's sort of it. It's not an activating feeling. It's kind of a feeling.
Alison Cebulla 1:04:05
Got it. Yeah.
Susan Linn 1:04:07
And I and I feel I think that like confusion, you know, it's, it's, it's the top layer of anger and fear and, and deeper and more volatile emotions. It's kind of like a top layer of that, or it tamps them down,
Alison Cebulla 1:04:28
I really can feel that. Well, Susan, thank you so so, so much for coming on and telling us all about your work and your new book, who's raising the kids big tech, big business in the lives of children, I love it. But you know, thank you for helping us think about how to care about kids. How to have a more human centered, society and culture where instead of thinking about buying things, we're thinking about valuing each other. This is just, just exactly the kind of conversations that we're wanting to have And gosh, like you you have such eloquence and wisdom. Thank you so, so freakin much. Yes,
Anne Sherry 1:05:06
thank you very much.
Susan Linn 1:05:07
Both of you. It's been great talking to you
Alison Cebulla 1:05:30
thanks for listening to latchkey urgence and friends. If you like what you heard, follow subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to podcasts but especially Spotify and Apple and if you didn't like it, just go ahead and hold that in just like you've been doing since childhood. Just kidding. We love hearing feedback, please visit us online at latchkey ergens.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. This podcast is produced by Alison Cebulla and Sherry episodes are edited by me Alison, their audio mastered by Josh Collins and our theme music is by Proxima parada.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
