Episode 6: "Chill the F*ck Out" Parenting—with guest Thomas Sherry, LCSW

This episode features Anne's husband, Tom Sherry, licensed social worker and therapist. He shares his "chill the f*ck out" parenting philosophy, ie how to back off and let your kid become who they were meant to be. Learn why as a kid he was not an urchin, latchkey, nor a ragamuffin, but a panda, rather. Deep dive on the different types of childhood neglect contrasted with overbearing anxious parents.

References:

• Running on Empty No More by Jonice Webb
• Breakfast Club (film)
• Parenting from the Inside Out by Dan Siegel
• Hold on to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gabor Mate, MD

Thomas Sherry Biography

"My entire career has been focused on children and families. After college, I taught 7th grade in an impoverished rural community in Eastern North Carolina and then pursued my master's in social work. I’ve worked with adolescents, families, schools, and adults as a therapist and consultant since 2001. With a playful approach, I use Internal Family Systems as my primary therapeutic modality along with role definition, mindfulness, and CBT to address developmental roadblocks and improve communication between adolescents, adults, and families.

Life without struggle would be pretty boring. Parenting without challenges would not be rewarding.

My current practice focuses primarily on parents. It is good to remember we grow and change alongside our children. They push our limits as much as we challenge theirs. Too often we address children’s developmental struggles and ignore the equally important developmental challenges of parents. Instead of focusing on the child and gathering perspectives from parents, I now meet primarily with parents and gather information from children. Parents can feel powerless, but they are not.  Even when your child is “ignoring” you, they are watching you.

I help parents witness the dynamic between their fears and those of their children and adjust parenting strategies to address engage them in a more productive way. We all want to do what is best for our children. Often what is best for them is often what is best for us.

Tom has been working with adolescents, adults, and families since 1990."

https://www.ashevillefamilysystems.com/

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:02
All right. Welcome to another episode of latchkey Urchins I'm Alison.

Anne Sherry 0:12
I'm am Cherie. And your last name

Alison Cebulla 0:16
to Beulah onion.

Anne Sherry 0:20
That garlic

Alison Cebulla 0:21
on Yeah, yeah, yeah. So boy,

Anne Sherry 0:24
there's this thing of ifs, they talk about it being more like where garlic cloves that there's like these rather than onions because I've I've always struggled a little bit with the onion analogy shows the tears often are if I peel and peel then there is nothing right and that's our deepest fear I don't exist. So the garlic the garlic works better for me like these little little little cells, these little these little parts in a clove. So

Alison Cebulla 0:56
sorry. I liked the garlic clove and that's very ifs. That has very little little pieces. Little parts. Pieces. Yeah. So um, okay, so today we are doing an interview, we had recorded the interview already that we're gonna play with Ann's husband, Tom Sherry, who I adore.

Anne Sherry 1:19
Yes, I do too. Most times. Actually, it took a little while, like initial Relationships

Alison Cebulla 1:27
are hard to like, especially to live with, especially to live with someone. How Does anyone do it?

Anne Sherry 1:34
I mean, it's an insane proposition, like insane.

Alison Cebulla 1:39
It's insane. It's insane. Like,

Anne Sherry 1:41
I'm going to just you and I are gonna be on this little fucking boat, this little island? Actually, maybe that's, again, I generally look through the lens of individual illness. Remember my I think Tom and I talk about this. Having independent personality disorder. Yeah. So anyway, I think most people probably looking at we used to be married and communities or whatever it wasn't. That's so

Alison Cebulla 2:10
true. individual choice, it was like, now the woman belongs to the man and will serve his household.

Anne Sherry 2:17
Or the community. I guess I don't know how this is all supposed to go. What I know is it's hard. And I also know as a therapist, I would never attempt to be a couples therapist. My hat goes off to people who attempt that. That's really hard dealing with the two systems. Yeah, and most people are coming to couples therapy after it's probably too late. Go early, earlier, though, often, you're not supposed to be able to know how to do this stuff. So

Alison Cebulla 2:46
it's so hard. Well, I have to say like, your voice has gotten stuck in my head lately. You know, since we've been doing the podcast about being in in relationship, like I can't stop thinking about what that means. Just not I don't mean romantic. I mean, yeah, with your community, having a fucking community of like, there's people that you care about, and they care about you, and you show up and you fight for them and die to die. And it's you've gotten in my head because I'm like, I don't think as Americans or Westerners, I don't know that any of us are doing this.

Anne Sherry 3:23
I think they exist. I guess they exist. I mean, it does. I guess I don't I joined a church, you know, and I yeah, I love. I haven't been going I know this pandemic. I know, but it's whatever. You got online church, and we keep trying. I mean, it's almost like this. It feels like this thing you you keep stepping up to, but it's like, you don't really know how to like to actually be in the community. Yeah, you got to learn to be vulnerable. You got to learn to be in conflict. And it's that piece that we've been talking. So brittle around conflict, and somebody's getting better. It's life's work. But maybe you aren't really shown that. Oh, gosh, so your kid is getting better at it. He's he has no problem being in conflict with us, you know, but then there's this repair that has, like kinda just happens. And it's like, you just stay in the game. So for relationships at one at Tom's big things is are you in the game? You know, people come to a couples therapy. Yeah. And it's like, you've got to establish like, I do want this to work. I mean, there's a funny phrase attachment issues, though, but come on. Yeah. So Lisa's book is really good around that the running on empty no more. She really lays it out about what it is to come to a couple with all this attachment. Yes. And neglect pieces.

Alison Cebulla 4:51
Yeah. But like so it was my dad's birthday, Friday, and I went over and it was like he's he has a lot of siblings. which is which is true. I feel like it's just trauma to have that many siblings. He's one of 10 kids. And yeah, and so my grandparents were there his his parents and a sibling of his and her spouse and a couple other people. And there was a lot of drinking there's I feel like drinking is kind of a trauma response in my family and not to criticize anyone. And and I just noticed that and I think that's pretty common first for, you know, family. So yeah. And the end because my dad, he turned 62. So he's not quite the age or he can get Medicare, but Medicare came up as a topic because it was his birthday, and he's getting older. And, and so his older sister was talking about her Medicare and started to complain rather loudly. And she she's like, like a liberal, you know, kind of Biden supporter and my grandparents are like, they watch Fox News. They love Trump, Dakota, very different. And

Anne Sherry 5:56
they started they don't want to be oh my god, these polarizations Go ahead. As soon

Alison Cebulla 6:03
as the health care conversation started to develop. And my aunt was kind of, you know, saying a few things. And we were talking and I was just keeping my mouth shut, to be honest. And my grandma said some just what she was, she was like, Oh, we never had health care and you just need to think positively. Which is some Fox News. brainwashing? Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. But pretty soon, shortly after this conversation started they just got up and left. They didn't actually didn't even say goodbye. They just left and went home. Wait, right.

Anne Sherry 6:38
Your aunt did by grandparents, your grandparents. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know what, that's all people to like, sorry. Like I'm by I feel like I'm

Alison Cebulla 6:50
like, What are

Anne Sherry 6:54
you are talking to somebody with one child and like, we barely have any friends that we really really keep up with. That's it. You know, we keep whatever wanting to it's a lot of work. But the effort is worth it. It truly truly is. This is what they we were we had gone. Traveling, we met a couple that we really adore. They live in Ridgeway near Telluride. So after all these bizarre meetings, you know, we don't entirely I don't believe in coincidence. I don't know. You just put things together as a human. It's okay. I don't think it's magic. But we met each other way too many times. And we're like, okay, universe, we're gonna be friends. Yeah, we made the effort

Alison Cebulla 7:36
to go routes right and make

Anne Sherry 7:38
tickets we went to see my brother, we went down to Telluride, we had a phenomenal time. And it's just it is worth the effort. And that is one thing, I think, at least in the neglect type of environment that I grew up in, with parents that grew up and also sort of neglected rural Alabama, this whole thing of like, oh, getting all your shit together to go to the beach. You know, we used to always hated the fucking beach because we'd go to the beach as kids to take one shitty ass towel. No drinks, no umbrella, no food, no nothing. And so, like, it was awful. You know, I mean, it boring. And so I sort of carried that into just, I don't know, just carried it on in till, like, I really did some work in therapy about what that is to actually make the fucking effort, you know, and not be this, like, it was so terrible, you know, because that's sort of what it felt like that whole piece of families are a burden when he was our burden without without a farm without a rural community to kind of like we weren't growing food. We weren't laying the hogs and dealing with chickens, and there was no so they got pulled out of that. And then they're in this modern world and they don't know how to do I think just joy and pleasure just this is fun. Like I grew up in our from where I live now. There are so many trails, like we try to hike as much as we can. It's like really, really worth the effort. Though, I don't know that that took a long time to do. So you got to make efforts in your relationships too. And I didn't for a long time I thought you just married somebody and then you lived in the same house. You didn't have to do anything you didn't have to show love or

Alison Cebulla 9:35
I just want to share reflections from our last episode. I just want to say thank you to

Anne Sherry 9:45
her, by the way from our last episode. A little bit of pooping over like share too much.

Alison Cebulla 9:53
Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. But just how many people shared the This American Life pie cast. It's funny, I guess, as if the world was ready to share their embarrassing bathroom stories because This American Life which you all if you haven't listened to that episode, it's the embarrassing stories. I felt so cringy listening to those stories, but then like also like so good after like, oh, embarrassing things happen to everyone, you know, so, so cathartic. It's how we connect that then I yeah, my favorite murder. Also, she had an embarrassing P story where she was like, really in the middle of a P and someone was like, you can't be there. And she had to like, quickly, you know, I was like,

Anne Sherry 10:33
at my age, there is no cutting off that stream. I mean, streams are coming out. When, like, just at any point, you know, so yeah, it just gets. Yeah, it gets more and more embarrassing as you get older. So we might as well start talking about it now.

Alison Cebulla 10:51
I know. So, anyway, thanks to everyone who sent that our way because that was great. Other feedback I've been getting about our podcast is that my friends are like, I never realized that I was a latchkey kid and tell your podcast, but I was. Yeah, people just didn't have a key. Exactly, exactly. That's actually exactly right. They're like, well, we never locked our door. But my parents were not around. Yeah, you know, and they weren't making us food. And they weren't. Yeah. You know, like, some of them are like, I didn't have a set bedtime. I didn't you know, yeah, wild. Yeah, just wild, wild childhoods, the alternate name for our podcast.

And I wanted to let all our listeners know that I have set up this really cool tool on our website, so that you can leave us a message and an audio message that we could play. And so I still think I really liked the current prompts that we put out there in episode one, which is do you have emotionally healthy grandparents? And it ties into what I was saying today as well? Do you have emotionally healthy grandparents? And if you do, please go to our website, latchkey urchins.com/tell. Us. And then you could also just go to our homepage and click tell us. And so that's where you would tell us our story. And if you just go to that page, then you can record and we get an email that you have that you have sent us your little story. And so it has all the instructions right on there. And so then we'll play some of them. We want it we want to hear about Yeah, I'm dying to hear about people's emotionally healthy grandparents, actually. So all right. All right. So now, you know, here's the interview with Ann and Tom, it's kind of like my interviewing the two of you, I think a little

Anne Sherry 12:54
guy and my inner immigrant.

Alison Cebulla 12:56
I think you were interviewed here to keep telling you

because you know, damn well, Tom, it's, it's great to to see you again and talk with you. I've always enjoyed our conversations. I think, you know, we first met 2014 I came down to Asheville for a little a little visit and yeah, so I think you know, the, one of the things we're trying to start asking our guests now is to talk about what you know, like latchkey childhood, how do you relate to that? How what was the emotional environment of your childhood?

Tom Sherry 13:52
I didn't I wasn't, I wasn't technically latchkey

Alison Cebulla 13:55
kid. Yeah. I don't want to know, I want to know why not, you know,

Tom Sherry 13:59
my mother was home when I got home from school. So in that technicality, you know that that's but that's very different than the concept of neglect that we've been talking about. You guys are working. Yep. And one of the one of the things that Anne and I have been toying with through the course of our marriage is like the different kinds of neglect we experienced. And for a long time, I thought that I had at worst quote worse than and because I had neglect interlace with judgment. So So you weren't being paid attention to but you were always being criticized for whatever you do. Right. So you never knew what you were doing right or wrong or like you could never win never do anything, right. So you're getting paid attention to but it was all just judgment like you never looked right. You never acted right. You're blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Like man, that was really hard. You know, I had neglect and judgment. And then as we've worked with Anne as an has been working through her stuff is like, that's really different than indifferent neglect. Yep. Like where there's true indifference. Yeah. And watching her go through the, the challenges of that kind of neglect. It's been really, you know, um, you know, it's not like it's a competition file. But that's really there's some benefits to my site, at least I was being paid attention to to be criticized.

Alison Cebulla 15:36
Right? My therapist said the same thing to me, she actually said, in a lot of cases, neglect can be worse than abuse. Because abuse, at least you know, you exist, someone is affirming your existence, but neglect, it's like, there's no grounding. It's just like, do I exist? Do I matter? That's a really deep wound, the kind of do I even does anyone even care that I exist? That's deep. Well,

Anne Sherry 16:01
that, sorry, Tom, that often you'd be if you're, especially if you're the hero in the family of that family system, usually you're gonna find kids taking on different roles. And so I became the hero, I'll be your, I'll get my sense of self met in the external world. So it's all about kind of this hyper vigilance to like, Well, how do you do this? Well, I'll just be really good at this. And so you literally have no needs, you know, and you get a lot of accolades, so you're athletic, or you try to be good in school, but you don't really good study habits often, or there's just no staying power, it's like a very two dimensional experience. It's not, it just isn't that deep, and you'll crumble at some point. So I see, that's a type of person I love to see in therapy, because it really hit they've been looking good average, this whole entire society says, You're good, you're good, you're good. You're you do stuff you you achieve. And it's this two dimensional a chi, I mean, if you look around the side of them, it's like, literally, there often is not much depth. So

Tom Sherry 17:08
whereas me, it was like my job, because of the judgment part was to disappear. Like to i to, I became the nicest human on the planet, because I just didn't want to get criticized. So I just learned how to be just super nice. And I was always known for being like, the nicest kid in the world, you know. And it was not until my early 40s, where I realized that that was a protector and a part and a manager and like, I had to, like, learn how to be an asshole and like, like, oh, there's some advantages to being an asshole. Sometimes. I can like being able to, to, to to advocate for myself and express my needs and my wants and desires instead of always subjugating myself to the other. Because that was the safer route was a real, a long term process is like, No, I'm important. I my needs are valuable. What you don't learn that when you're just trying to be quiet and safe and not be criticized?

Alison Cebulla 18:11
Yeah, and that you're also drawn

Anne Sherry 18:13
to parenting. I mean, like, working with adolescents, you knew what you wanted to do, right? Like this. I'm going to be a therapist, you knew like, somewhere in your 20s or even earlier than that and got interested in your

Tom Sherry 18:26
I'm, I'm one of those weird people that I knew. I didn't choose this profession. Like I knew I was going to kayak I knew it was gonna farm I knew it was going to be a therapist. By the time I was 15 years old. Like I, I was monomaniacal towards those goals from interesting age. Like, I didn't choose this job. It's just this is what I do.

Alison Cebulla 18:49
And why do you why do you think that is? Why were you drawn to it?

Tom Sherry 18:53
I'm still working on that. I, I, I have a lot of work to do on that, because there's a part of me that really believes I'm like you. I'm a devout rationalist. Like, to two extreme degree. But there's a part of me that feels it was like, like, I It feels sometimes, like I have knowledge that I didn't learn. Like I like I was like born with some of these understandings that I that they somehow came to me. i It's kind of sometimes it's a weird thing. It's just like, I was always this very observant, Quiet Kind. I always was confused by like, why are people arguing?

Alison Cebulla 19:38
So there was something of the peacemaker in you.

Tom Sherry 19:42
Yeah, they just had a big heart. I had a big heart. Oh,

Alison Cebulla 19:45
I see. I see. I see. So why are you why do you why? Why teens? Why are you drawn to working with teens?

Tom Sherry 19:54
I don't know if i i I think I sort of fell into teens a little bit. But I grew grew to really like them. I liked the complexity of the family system. And I sort of liked this sort of orchestration aspect. But there's a plasticity to teens, that's really lovely to work with. There's this emergence, and there's this sense of self. And I do a lot of stuff on like, role definition, like this emergence from being the son or daughter of your parents or sibling of your siblings into being the person you're going to be. And in the teen years, that's where that transition happens. You know, everyone thought experience, like if I were to make your family drop off the face of the earth tomorrow, who then who are you? And for a really young kid, that's an impossible question to answer because they can't see their lives outside of the contract. So that ecosystem, but as they get, you know, 1415, then that starts to really happen. And you know, and you're sort of guiding that process,

Alison Cebulla 21:01
and it may it makes me think of all the most compelling movies are like that T those teen development like Ferris Bueller's Day Off, or the Breakfast Club, or what's the Dead Poets Society? You know, like heart wrenching in some ways where you're just you're sucked into the whole the whole feeling? That's like, so uniquely such a unique Glee teenager feeling like everything matters so much. Right?

Anne Sherry 21:30
That is exactly how it feels. You know, I know I work with teams and it is it's like 50 billion times. Feeling more at that time. And it lasts a long time like our I think our we're on a speeded up schedule, as our lives are flashing by but it lasts a long time in their world. So do you

Alison Cebulla 21:53
two have a favorite like a favorite teen teen angst movie?

Anne Sherry 21:57
Oh, Breakfast Club. song comes on that at the end it do me every time? Yes. Yes, I wanted to be a rebel so bad. But I was. I wasn't Molly Ringwald, but I was maybe Anthony Michael Hall? Or is that just the good kid? I was just good, you know, secretly, like at this shadow side, that was far because my old older brother was off the charts, cops, everything, you know, you got to play that role. So anyways, yeah.

Tom Sherry 22:33
Well, I mean, speaking of the, my work is adolescent. I mean, you can't work with adolescents. You're working within a system. And what I what I grew to really appreciate was sort of navigating the family system, you know, and really what I've grown, the job was a lot of like, trying to help the parents get out of the kids way. You know, and helping the kids like not let, you know, finding their own way. And that whole stuff about how much does a parent let go? How much does a parent Hold on? How much does the kid let go? How much does the kid hold on and all those complications that happen? You know, it's a really dicey, very, very volatile, and it's a moving target. And that dealing with the parents became really what I liked doing the most.

Alison Cebulla 23:34
Dealing with the parents, What do you mean by that?

Tom Sherry 23:38
Teaching like, like, like, parents come to parenting with a tremendous amount of fear and anxiety and, and a tremendous amount of like responsibility. Mm hmm. You know, and they want to do it, right. And they want to do all this sort of stuff. And there's, there's all this angst and energy and focus these days on this guy on the kid. And I'm like, just shut up, you know, just back off. Like, you know, this isn't about you. You know, you are not the the maker or breaker of your child's future. You know,

Alison Cebulla 24:18
but that's their own trauma coming up, right?

Tom Sherry 24:21
Yeah, it's their own trauma and this whole idea, this whole trauma, and I think there's some stuff about I don't want to get too philosophical. There's something about sort of industrial revolution stuff. It's like, you know, we're in we're, we can control this, we can make this happen. I can create this person, you know, the 1950s, sort of tabula rasa, you could like make your kid you know, behaviorism like, you can create this thing. Like, you have all this power to mold this creature into something. Yeah. And it's like you and you're imposing on them. Yeah. And I'm like, no back away. They have a life and an energy and A beauty of their own if you just get out of the way. Yeah. And all you're there to shepherd that not to mold it. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 25:08
that is very different than like, the neglect we talk about right the most just neglect neglect, right? But it's still no concept of family or I just it's free range.

Alison Cebulla 25:21
It's sort of still neglect foe, isn't it? And you know this like, like, the child, definitely extension itself. Yes. Like,

Anne Sherry 25:30
when Tom saying get out of the way just let your kid but that is a different get out of the way, then don't pay don't even pretend you have oh, yeah, completely different. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk with that?

Alison Cebulla 25:42
It sounds like the subtleties of getting out of the

Anne Sherry 25:46
way and then pretending, pretending as if, you know, these, these leeches in your household, if they would just leave, then we could get back to our life is sort of why.

Tom Sherry 25:58
Oddly enough, I had a dream about this this last night. Where it's like, what is what is the what I was in a conversation? Maybe because I knew I was talking to you guys today. But like, what is the basic foundation of my sort of philosophy of parenting? You know, what is the core of it. And, and in the dream that the core was trust is like, I trust that my kids gonna be okay. Like, I just have, I have a deep abiding faith that they're going to be okay. And my only job as a parent, is to get them into an independent adulthood. That's a gold medal, whether they're happy, or whatever, satisfy whatever, that's all gravy, that's kind of on that. Yeah. You know, but my job is just to get them just and, and so I am here for you is sort of, like getting out of their way is, is you're available and present and supportive. But you're not imposing, you know, you're you're it's more of an act of listening than it is preaching, it's more of a, it's more of a dialogue, then like, what is the kind of teaching word, it's that didactic, you know. I mean, I believe I really, truly believe that children know how to become adults more than we do. And that all we have to do is just listen and pay attention to them. And they will tell us what they need. And it's love is just the act of like being there and listening. And being available for them. Yeah, holding space for them to teach me who they are, who they are and what they need, as opposed to me getting up in their grill. And I'm trying to like, do you know, there is they're more invested in becoming an adult than I am. They want to get their genes in the next generation. I already did that. I know.

Alison Cebulla 27:59
So hard. I mean, to me, as you're speaking, and I'm like, you're saying some very simple concepts that are very profound. Like I'm like, absorbing them. And I'm like, this is this is truth. I'm hearing truth. Why is this so hard for for people, parents? Why? Maybe and maybe you don't have an answer, but you're both of you.

Tom Sherry 28:22
Well, I think I did a paper on midwifery. And we have a lot of C sections we have in this country. And and part of it is because doctors are not used to not doing anything. They're not used to like just letting the natural process take place. It's like, it feels really weird to not be in control. You know, we build dams, we build buildings, we're like, we're like this idea that we're like, in control of nature. And like we want to, we want to impose or our this intellect on the world and create something. And really, the world is much more magical and amazing than you'll ever be able to make it. So just back off and let it do its job.

Anne Sherry 29:06
But that doesn't fly when you're at your like, cocktail parties and stuff. And all that comparing is going on and where's your kid going to school? And how many accolades does your kid have? If you just show up? And you're like, I don't know, they're just kind of unfolding. You know, we're just kind of they're letting me now. It just doesn't. I think that's some of it, too. There's a lot of this site that again, white suburbs, cultural pieces that we bring into this just Tim Okun stop is just it. All that ascension, you know, like, they must be the best and we're comparing so. And somehow the kids that have been I mean, I think the pandemic has been really helpful that parents felt a lot of parents talked about getting a sigh of relief. I don't have to have my kid at every freakin practice. You know, the family got to kind of connect again. So I'm really interested at how what this year or 18 months is going to have. Have the wisdom, the innate wisdom that it might have released a little bit? Yeah.

Tom Sherry 30:13
So would you agree with that sort of how we we play the game with him? We just like we just

Anne Sherry 30:18
Yeah, but I can also I will say I could feel once he got to school, we had him in sort of a Waldorf inspired preschool.

Alison Cebulla 30:27
You're how old? Is he? Just for our listeners? Almost

Anne Sherry 30:29
nine. Okay. And he, you know, we're like, yeah, that nature Cool. Awesome. Excellent. And he loved it. But he did have to go to a school and kindergarten and kindergarten is more playful, but that first grade year was rough. Where you are sitting in a chair, it's still a pretty hippie, I don't know what to say just expressive, you know, nature based school ish. But it is, you know, it's a charter school. But it's in line with like, you've got to meet these goals, these achievements. He really struggled. And I was like, oh, we should have been and he didn't have a pen in his hand or pencil. We didn't do his fine motor skills. Like I really had to sit with a lot of like, We fucked up. I fucked up. I was just like, you know, and I was like, oh, and then. So how the process for me, I was able to see those as parts, but he's behind, we need to hold him back. We've messed up, I started questioning these natural inclinations I had, he's a very physical kid. He never really did like having a pen in his hand or pencil or, or book. And I was like, oh, that's stupid ass Waldorf. We took it too far, you know, they're not supposed to read until they get till they get their teeth in. And he's still got baby teeth. And but it was internal. And I can imagine without the internal family systems knowledge without like, being an older parent, that's. So there wasn't enough of that. But I could feel how something happening that I had messed up, I could just feel that thread coming. What

Alison Cebulla 32:07
would that mean? Like? What would that mean? You know, if you

Anne Sherry 32:11
were growing up the hero in my childhood, it was like, I

Alison Cebulla 32:15
felt like death or something. Like, I can't if I messed up in any way.

Anne Sherry 32:20
Tom rolled with that a whole lot better.

Tom Sherry 32:23
I have a real different take on that.

Anne Sherry 32:26
Smaller parent in a lot of ways. So

Tom Sherry 32:29
yeah, I mean, everything is saying is true. But I mean, I have a phrase that I have a couple of phrases that I try to live with when it comes to parenting, you know? Well, I've got three phrases. One is there's no way to do it. Right. And there's only a few ways to do it wrong. So chill the fuck out. Right? I do believe that in my core, right. I also believe that, you know, the phrase like it all comes out in the wash. Yeah, like, and with him in terms of talking to him. The phraseology and the phraseology amount. And as you'll figure it out, you know, I these are sort of mantras. I keep going back to like, you'll figure it out. Yeah. Now, when it comes to like, the school stuff, like the times when that broke down for me, right, where he was really struggling with school and throwing temper tantrums and like, couldn't put a pen into like, it really, from my experience, my freak outs were not about him. My freak outs were about me, like, I don't want to live in a household for the next 10 years, where I'm forcing my kid do his homework, like having a fight with my kid all the time to do schoolwork. It was a I still believe it was going to come out in the wash, like it was going to be fine. It's just that was a world I didn't want to live in. Like, I didn't want to live in a world where I'm fighting with my kid about school all the time. Yeah, right. And so, so that was a matter of this die like list, like, what does this kid need? And how, you know, how do I just sort of, you know, sit with it and like, hold that belief that it all comes out in the wash and just sort of like, not stress out. And then and just sort of sit with that and just sort of like, well, if there's special needs that come up, then we'll deal with them. And, you know, his teeth come in and he figures it out. And you know, it wasn't worth stressing about it's like, you know, just sort of like it's none of it's really worth

Anne Sherry 34:18
I've talked about this book too, before the Parenting from the inside out. I think Tom you're naturally referring to a lot of that it is about paying attention to how did you grow up? What traumas What are you putting on? Where are you parenting from fear by Daniel Siegel. And I do also want to say you know, we are we don't have a lot of other external stressors, you know, we're pretty financed

Alison Cebulla 34:42
with especially being older parents. I mean, that was a lot of the stress parents in my household growing up was financial because they're so young.

Anne Sherry 34:51
Yeah, the other piece so we did bring in community around when he was maybe three ish or something we were realized we really being older parents, this was another thing that led me to this, like, Oh, God, we're supposed to be in community. And that's such a weird concept. Like, we're gonna he has no siblings, he has cousins that are all much older. I was like, we're gonna die. And this kid still relatively, I don't know, could you know, who knows, but like, we're older parents, and he needs to know this concept of communities. So that was another reason for joining our church, and we have been struggling and we're getting better and better at it. But that has been important. For us. I think growing up the way we did me pretty individualistically you to Tom, but he needs a solid community. And that actually brought us to maybe him being able to learn things we didn't learn about racial justice, about inequity, like that is just really talked about in our communities. And we we don't hold a lot back. He's pretty familiar about what's going on in this world, because I do think that's a piece of you're trying to parent, but you can't control these external forces in American society. Right. And I really see these kids are dealing with climate change. They're dealing with inequities. Polarization, the Trump era, like that is impacting his early life, that that if you pretend those things aren't existing, it's really rough on kids, I think.

Tom Sherry 36:37
Yeah, I haven't, you know, I am talking about community, I find community very hard. Yeah, I find being, and I'm sitting here listening to and, and, and, and the thought that I'm having is, is that I, I didn't grow up in a family. I had a mother and a father, I had an older brother and two older sisters. We all lived in the same house, but there was no family. I describe it as a house of pandas, which are the pandas live individual solitary lives, we had, like six solitary people trapped under the same house. There was no this third entity, you know, like, in a couple year, there's me, you and there's this us there's this amorphous third thing this us Yeah, and family is this amorphous third thing that you kind of, are comforted by and you, you can't touch it, but you can feel its presence. And I think if you live in, if you grew up inside a family, you're like, Oh, I know, this thing, this outside thing that can comfort me and hold me. And that that emerges into a community. Like that's, that becomes community. But if you didn't grow up with that comfort, or that entity, or even any understanding of what that envelope is feeling, then there's no drive to have community because, yeah, I know what that feels like to begin with. Like, I don't know what I, I don't have any physical experience of the feeling like I'm part of a family. I don't have none of this. Yeah, it's it's

Alison Cebulla 38:16
so like, what are the micro behaviors of a family that has a third entity? Or, you know, community feeling to it? What's what's what didn't happen in your childhood? Or probably mine? Or? And what did what? Like the two? What are the tangible things that didn't happen?

Tom Sherry 38:36
Give people giving a shit about anything.

Anne Sherry 38:42
I mean, like experiences, really, I mean, we like today, you know, I've been busy this morning. And I mean, so there is a it's not like we know later today, let us really put some effort into what can the three of us do together? That is a together thing, not just like, Okay, I'm tired. I'm just going to check out you know, it doesn't. Does that mean? You present and saying, here's the range of options, let's go spend some time together. Let's spend some time together.

Tom Sherry 39:17
To enjoy being around each other. Yeah. We're all individuals. There was no inter part. There's no cross pollination of interests or behaviors or humor or anything. It was just, it's just like having communal experience where you're all experiencing the same thing together and sort of creates this sort of yeasty environment that feels good.

Alison Cebulla 39:41
Yeah, yeah.

Anne Sherry 39:42
There's Gabor monta has a book called hold your kids close or hold your kids tight or something and he does talk about like, you need to hope otherwise they're gonna they blow out of it. And they're the experts in their world or their peers who are who are not experts. So this whole thing of like, I think he would posit that this thing of like, oh teams just disappear for a while. That's not actually natural, they they will differentiate, but the pattern, a pattern of neglect blows your kids away from you. They're not going to share anything that and we see that as normal. Like, yeah, my team just disappeared. What would you say, Tom, that there are families where teens do like to check in with their parents or, you know, probably because I

Tom Sherry 40:30
sorts of stuff about parents who aren't who don't individuate I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole developmental process for parents to which we haven't talked about is like, this identity of being parenting, you have to go through that life stage to where you let go of that role and identity to and some parents have a really hard time letting go of that identity. They hold on to their children when their children are trying to get away. And in some, you know, like, there's all there's a lot of parents don't understand that they're going through developmental life stages, too. We all focus on our child's growing up and but you're you're growing up to, you're going through a very similar differentiation, that your child is your you're sloughing off this role of parent. And if you really love being a parent, there's a lot of grief associated with that. Yeah, you know, and some parents have a real hard time doing that. I mean, that wasn't hard. That wasn't true in my family, because there was, you know, it was not that wasn't kind of the deal.

Alison Cebulla 41:34
What do you think? What do you think were the maybe some of the factors at play, maybe like, I like I like the philosophical stuff that you bring in the historical stuff in your family of origin time. And also you and like, what what created? You know, because these, these parenting styles are pretty, pretty typical. What what created that? Like,

Tom Sherry 42:01
my the house of pandas, what created my house of pandas? Yeah.

Anne Sherry 42:08
Yeah, actually, I'm not. That's a great question. I'll say.

Tom Sherry 42:17
That's a great question. I'm, I'm, well, I, you know, I, I, I think there's also there's a whole nother thing, but I think there's a depression era psychology where, you know, financial, and like, making sure everything was happening, like, all of that stuff, the stress of just managing a family's financial unit was really stressful. During that period of time, like that was the priority, because those people lived through the collapse of that, you know, there and, and so, SO SO, SO parenting really wasn't the dominant concern for them, it was making sure that there was still food on the table and shelter. It's like, the primary thing is my job is not to be a good parent, my job is to make sure you're fed and you go to school. And, you know, that's the I don't get it, the rest is gravy for them. And I told him, I get that. Yeah, you know, there's also in my family system, there's, there's narcissism and there's, you know, there's some other where, you know, the needs of one party or you know, your needs are not important, the needs of that person are important. Yeah.

Anne Sherry 43:29
And I keep, you know, I keep I know, I'm anecdotal, I'm not speaking for every seven days childhood, the entire experience, there are some threads that are just how it was structurally but my parents grew up in they were born in 38 and rural Alabama, so I keep I keep reminding myself I think I'm I had the experiences of gender. I don't know if it's a generation but I'm removed like it. I thought everybody's I thought the world was black and white, you know, it was like, and there was they didn't do money. I mean, it was like subsistence farming. You had 10 and seven children because you needed workers and but that was not I was off time with a lot of my peers whose parents did grow up with electricity and cars and that was that was mind blowing to me. So certainly from my experience, and you know, lots and lots of work that I've done i There's a lot of really understanding like, Holy hell, they had no skills and then they were the seven B's I don't know it was the money was tight. And it must have been an insanely stressful experience all the time. I'd want if it were that stressful. You want kids out of the house, it was probably like, yeah, Girl Scout cookies. Get out of here one more time the kids are out of the house and the more you can And like breathe or something, but it was also sanctioned a bit, you know, like,

Alison Cebulla 45:05
I think about like the the peace that you both bring up around how hard it is to be in community. And I also think about like the history of, of America basically being a country of immigrants of a lot of European immigrants, and that, that movement away from your home community, leaving your home community, coming to a new place, how isolating and traumatizing that whole energy is, that's like the story. I mean, and, you know, as well as the energy of, of all the indigenous people here who died as a result of that. But that's, that's some dark energy to start a country off with.

Tom Sherry 45:49
Right. And it's really recent, I mean, my I'm, like, third generation Irish, you know, it's like that bar. And that potato famine, and I mean, it is imbued into, you know, our sloughing off of a lot of that stuff. And yeah, and going back sort of this the whole concept of, of neglect. I mean, my mantra is, my job is to get my kid into an independent adulthood. On on that metric. My parents deserve a gold medal. I, you know, my tremors and my sufferings and my stuff that's on me to figure out. That's me, that's my life. But but on balance, they succeeded in that goal. Like, so I don't fault that. I mean, I got I mean, you know, I do a lot of work on myself. But that's, that's work for me to do. That's not. That's not, that's not. That's just my stuff. Let's I can't blame them for it.

Anne Sherry 46:46
We have talked about Allison and I have an pre throughout this. So you know, talked about that having enough. It's a little bit like a recipe. And I think what we're trying to do here would you do work is if there's too much, or the or the system of the child can get, you know, that can be so overwhelming that it's almost like they don't have enough, I guess access to their self or to be able to do the work on some level. Do you know, so it's, yeah, go ahead.

Alison Cebulla 47:19
I want to interject, just because in my own life, there were times when I thought my trauma felt so heavy, I wasn't sure I was gonna make it out alive. And I lost, I lost two cousins, my age to, to suicide, two of them were the same age. And so for those of us who grew up in the 80s, we're seeing deaths of despair on the rise, we're seeing drug use on the rise, we're, I'm seeing I'm seeing among my peers, I don't feel this way anymore. And of course, I got a diagnosis, those feelings that I was feeling are called major depressive disorder. I don't want to be here. Right? But but that's not it. Just it's that's not just me and my family that's like, my generation is this is dark, this is dark.

Tom Sherry 48:14
Well, the way that I talk about this, I've been talking about this with parents like, like, parents try to protect their children from suffering. And I'm like, No, suffer, you know, you don't want to protect it, there's a balance you want enough suffering, like suffering is the engine of development is what I tell my parents, so like, You want enough suffering that it drives growth, but too much suffering inhibits growth, ya know, and that's where support and community and all those other things we're talking about and family balances that out, like, you can actually handle more suffering. When you have community you can grow more and you can become more. That's why it's so valuable. When you don't have that support. You can't handle as much and you can collapse you. I mean, God knows how many times I've been suicidal in my life, you know, um, yeah,

Anne Sherry 49:05
yeah. That edge. Yeah, but that road to community and I don't know, maybe part of me it's like, do you hear me like me it looks good on the surface is two dimensional and Tom and I have talked about this both of us for different reasons. You You think you're in our house, but we'll invite you into the sort of the vestibule the it's very pretty, you know, but it is a small room. Nobody's getting in the big house in my house like oh gosh, it and so you try to I could find myself like as I was really trying to work on this expressing like, oh, it's really hard to be here. I don't want to do this or people are like but you're so friendly and you belong so much. I'm like it's all an act, you know. So the actual belonging piece it just I guess if any listeners are out there that Um, just take your time, keep showing up, keep showing

Tom Sherry 50:04
vulnerability,

Anne Sherry 50:05
vulnerability.

Tom Sherry 50:07
You know, what you're talking about is like, like, I've been saying that, like, I have a tremendous, like, people think they're in my house. And then after they get to know me for a couple years, they realize that, oh my God, I don't know who this person is, like, I've kept, I'm not, I'm safe as can be in my little house. In my house, you think you're in my house? Because I'm the friendliest guy you ever met? But you? You're not in my house? And because because it's just not safe. And I think, I think I think that's the we're really this is interesting conversation, because what, what I didn't anticipate in this conversation is, is the role of the understanding of family, and how that morphs into community and how important community is, and how much and how much I am, I'm more cheerful here, like how much there's like, I'm terrified. It's I'm literally almost terrified of the idea of community. You know, it's just like, I love my wife and my kid, I could just live in my own little bubble with the three of the two of them. And then like, that's good for me.

Anne Sherry 51:15
That's the man mind paradox. I column, you know, the me and manners. So,

Alison Cebulla 51:20
but and so. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, you just right before we started recording, you saw some community members tried to cross the street. Oh, right. I having a really hard time. And some part of your subconscious was like, I gotta intervene. I gotta, that's community. I, well, I'm

Anne Sherry 51:42
telling you, that wouldn't have happened like three or four years ago. I'm like, No, I can't get in the left lane and do a wacky U turn to go get this woman and her elderly father who's about to collapse in the street. And there is sort of more of a one, I watched my mother do that. But I was like, they need how like, so there wasn't so much in the way of what does this look like? Is it okay? Are they crazy? Are they going to do something? Are they I was like, those people need house, I gotta go do it. But

Alison Cebulla 52:10
there's something in you to like, it's like I'm hearing you say that community's hard. I guess I'm also saying like, well, I guess you really are doing a great job of pretending. Because even like in 2014, when I texted you and was like, hey, surprise, I'm in Asheville, I mean, your immediate response is that you were just like, we're hosting you come on over, you know,

Anne Sherry 52:31
you're, you're me and mind. Your mind? You know, I'll take care of I guess I'd want to clarify, I think sometimes I speak in terms of where I've been to sort of, to be illustrative. But yes, yes, I love what you said, Tom, that I didn't really realize this, that this is having a connected family, you just evolved, then you're like, Oh, the family safe. So we that we probably could evolve into a community and we really need a community to just stay at that piece. And the racial justice work that I engaged in, I was like, no frickin way can I be with all tried to be effective at all, unless I am in a community that can help bear the horror of that, so that you stay in it? You know, I think a lot of times we get in that work, and we don't have this sense of a safe community to work through and the length of time it takes to work in that and do your own evolution. But it just takes time. And I think we you know, we're, we're just sort of trusting right, Tom?

Tom Sherry 53:44
Surely. Yeah. I mean, I've been working through this idea. Like I mean, this this idea of community, we probably there's a whole nother topic, but like, what enables a person and maybe it is the neglect, like what enables a person to feel part of a community? Like what are the foundations that are built into a child that were communities available to them, they they get nourished by it, they seek it, blah, blah, blah, and the way that I've been working through this idea of of wholesale versus retail love, like I am really good at wholesale, like the checkout person the checkout line, a person on the street, like I can love like the best of them wholesale, but read but retail where I have to like they have to get to know me a little bit. Like I'm not good at retail. Like that's community to me, it's like they're actually going to get to know me. I actually have to show up I can give as much as I like receiving or being seen.

Anne Sherry 54:48
Yeah, is

Tom Sherry 54:49
you know, like we've talked about earlier like being seen is how you become in a in a good family. Being seen is what makes you exist, and you know, like being paid attention Season two is how you know you exist in the world. And if you're not being paid attention to, you have to develop that on your own, like it's in your own head. It's like I exist, I think, therefore I am. Like, I don't need another person out there to show me that I exist because I've sort of developed it on my own because I grew up in this kind of neglectful environment. So I don't have to go out into the world. And I don't need people to to like, show me I exist, because I had to learn how to become a person by myself. So

Anne Sherry 55:31
you're working, that's an evolutionary stage, because like, it's right. I mean, I know you love living there. And we're not going to make it in this world, if you know, environmentally, with activism with evaluating these structures that are just awful to people like that damn, Biltmore bus that dropped that elderly man and his daughter off to walk down a huge busy street. Anyways, like that it was against the rules, I think, for the bus to move forward. You know, I can't leave the grounds or something. It was like, just take them to the somebody helped them get to lunch, you know, but the bus drivers fine. You made your choice. So get off the bus. And he nearly collapsed in the street. So it's just a weird, like, why is this happening? Why would anybody allow this to happen? Including her on some level? Like, ask for help, you know? So it's working? Yeah. I know. It's not ask for helper. I know,

Tom Sherry 56:35
people for for grew up in our environment that we're talking about. We that's one of our major delay asking for help. Oh, God, hold on. That didn't happen.

Anne Sherry 56:46
Tonight. The term independent personality disorder, which Alice I've mentioned on this, I love that so much.

Alison Cebulla 56:53
It comes up in my therapy, like it really should be a diagnosis. It is the right diagnosis. American is suffering from it. We have independent personality disorder as a nation. Yeah. We've been brainwashed to think that we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. It's literally not possible. I mean, nor do you

Anne Sherry 57:15
want to, I have to say as I evolved into this, I'm like, Holy shit, this feels better. Like to actually be glad to see somebody for somebody just to reflexively say, Hey, can I help you? Or, Hey, you look a little sad. Could I give you a hug? Which I'm like, oh, stiff as a board, but probably that you know, like, how did you see that? How embarrassing but like that people there is it feels better that just feels

Alison Cebulla 57:44
I'm remembering now this memory came into my head that and when I think when I came to visit I think 2014 Because I came again in 2018 that I maybe said something to you that was in gratitude to your hosting me and to all of our good conversations and maybe some compliments you I can't remember if there was more if it was like compliments or whatever. And you were like I'm gonna practice receiving this you know? Yeah.

Anne Sherry 58:13
Yeah, that receiving nourishment, like but that just

Alison Cebulla 58:16
laughed. Yeah and impression on me because it was like, Oh, I'm seeing someone practice this receiving which I hadn't done that yet. For myself that that work. Yeah, you know, hearing you say that I am going to go especially for you to to not just immediately deflect. And then oh, let me now like reflexively give it back. That also left a huge positive impression on me of you were just like, cool. I'm just going to receive it. I'm just going to leave it there. Like so good. Just leave it there.

Anne Sherry 58:52
Moments of expansion and then severe contract we're going to do this I have an idea for a podcast episode. Tom, you know all about this, like visiting love town. You know, you go on there for vacation and you got to save the money out like that's like 1000s of dollars of therapy, maybe sharing love town, you know, and in my

Tom Sherry 59:13
like, oh, I don't want to stay there.

Anne Sherry 59:17
Everybody's happy and loving each other. This

Tom Sherry 59:20
feeling loved is forgot I get going back and neglect feeling loved is uncomfortable for us. We're not We're not used to it. It's like we're being appreciated. Or, or, or being complimented. Like I remember this what you're talking about with and I remember, we used to have dinner I used to cook a lot and have dinner parties and one night and I answered your meal was really good tonight. And I said yeah, thanks a lot and she almost fell out of the bed. And because normally I would have said well, I should have done this or that was okay or this could have been better. And she's like, wait a minute, just stop and just hear what you just said. that I was able to just

Anne Sherry 1:00:01
around the time with you, Allison Yeah. Oh,

Tom Sherry 1:00:05
I just like was able to like feel. Feel that. And I mean, it's a real it's a challenge. It's a real learning thing it takes effort to. It takes effort. It doesn't take effort for me to love but it takes a lot of effort for me to be loved.

Anne Sherry 1:00:20
Yes, that's good. Yeah, we we do this with August. I think we drive him a little. I don't know. Well have August once we're dead and gone. Allison, you're 16 years younger, have August on keeps going. And we'll see how long dad gone. Because he's like, Oh, my God, my parents fuses this shit. They handed me anyways. But we will say, hey, August, what's it feel like to be loved? Like, What's that feel? Like? He's like, Shut up, you know, what's, what's it like? And we even did remember, we did an experiment with him parenting wise, basically said it felt like candy or warm or something like sort of warm. Yeah, felt warm. And then I said, Hey, let's do a little bit. Let me give you some of my childhood. And we had him and he was like, yeah, he loves my stories of growing up in the 70s. And how wild and urgent it was, it shouldn't be a sales of a pirate or something. I mean, he laughs So I think that's part of like, just share. I don't know what my parents upbringing was like, but it is fun to share, how it was how we're different, but we I had, I was just like reading a paper or something and completely ignoring him and he could tolerate it for about three seconds and he couldn't stop it. I don't like it. You know, so I was like, Okay, I think we're like we're doing all right. You know, he's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Sherry 1:01:47
Well, advocating your for yourself as the other piece is like, I'm valuable enough to advocate for myself. Whereas was you grew up in our environment is like, you don't ask for anything.

Alison Cebulla 1:01:59
You just learn from a very young age, I could ask I'm not gonna get anything in return. Yeah. Like,

Tom Sherry 1:02:04
why ask you? Or I'm gonna get criticized for asking. Yes, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get attention but I'm gonna get the I'm gonna get attention that doesn't feel good. Right? So you know, you just sort of like figure out how to live on your own

Alison Cebulla 1:02:21
Yeah, yeah. So we are gonna we're just gonna wrap wrap up that week Tom we'll have you will have you back again and I I love talking about the the historical and philosophical contexts of all of all of these like interpersonal and personal ideas. So I you know, can't wait to see you again a purpose in person so we can nerd out on all these you know, and then we'll have you back.

Tom Sherry 1:02:47
I'll send you the chapters of the book I'm working on really nerd out.

Anne Sherry 1:02:53
You don't have the title but the subtitle is chill the fuck

Tom Sherry 1:02:56
out. I think I think the title is chill the fuck out. Everything and confident kids,

Alison Cebulla 1:03:02
right? The word fuck is having a renaissance in book titles right now. So I think you're you're like what was? Isn't there a Mark Mark Manson one? What's his subtle art of not giving a fuck? And there's other ones? Yeah, there's a whole it's

Anne Sherry 1:03:16
so I am doing my best to take the power out of that word. Just ask August

Tom Sherry 1:03:24
it's, there's there's this it's a it's a weird line between paying attention. And neglect is really what this edge is, is like, you pay attention. But you're not in that you're not paying you

Alison Cebulla 1:03:36
have you're having your own self and your child has a different self, I think that you're really that is your that what I'm getting is like your main point is like theirs. Yeah. And so I'm just like, if if a parent is arriving at parenting, and they don't know who their capital S self is, they've never asked, they've never seen it. They weren't raised to have their self acknowledge. They're going to start, you know, having this enmeshment with their kid where the boundaries are confused, and they don't understand where they end and where their kid starts.

Anne Sherry 1:04:09
Right. Or I think you also don't accurately perceive their motivations or, you know, like your story of the spilt milk to like, it's like, I can't didn't spill that on purpose. You know, you just get you reflexively are engaging in these activities, that

Tom Sherry 1:04:25
investment where your child suffering is not your suffering, it's their suffering, and they can handle it, you know, it's like, if they're, they're hurting, that doesn't mean you're hurting. It's just like, Oh, you just scold them, and you support them in their own suffering as opposed to like, oh my god, they're suffering. What do I need to do to take it away from them? Let them have their suffering. It's okay. It's suffering and there's no emotion out there. That's not okay. Like just let them let them live their lives.

Anne Sherry 1:04:49
I do have one quick little story that one of my ifs mentors had said in a training or supervision or something, but it really helps you To put it in the physical of how parents are naturally these days can be with their kids suffering. When they're, you know that he was saying it's very much like a kid who's running really fast and they fall down. If you're able to be right next to them, they really just want to tell you the story of the falling down, you know, and then I was running really fast. I got doubted that I had to steal my near the dealer, and then you're like, oh, yeah, okay, that sounds hard, you were running really fast, you just sort of repeat it back to them, and you just hold space for them. Like, within minutes, they are fucking over it. And they are running back on the playground, it is literally that simple. With their emotions to they come back and somebody was mean to them, you know, I have to get my part that's like, what did you punch them? You know, that's my first like, you know, I'm like, we're gonna get that kid. Of course, I get that one, two step back. But August will just relate a heart experience. That sounds hard that you just hold space and do something that's simple. Takes when you grow with your neglectful childhood can be $40,000 of therapy to get

Alison Cebulla 1:06:15
oh my gosh, yeah. So just to add on this, so I was having a text conversation with a friend of mine who is is an awesome mom. And she had posted a meme about holding space for your kids feelings, you know, and I just said, you know, this isn't really like the parenting that I personally experienced, you know, and she said I What about herself that she wasn't allowed to have or express her own feelings because it would be selfish and upsetting.

Anne Sherry 1:06:43
I can't tell you how much I hear that in people you know, working through people's childhoods the other piece, parents just just be happy. You remember, we talked about this, the ice cream approach the ice cream? Yes. You're okay. And it's like, it's fine. Literally, they can go into the depths of sorrow hold space, and they'll they'll be right back. Yeah, or whatever it is, or just trust, right.

Tom Sherry 1:07:09
And that, like, just, they they know how to do this just back. They know. You're not in charge here. It's a dialogue between you and them. It's,

Anne Sherry 1:07:19
I do think they need to see you do it as well. You know, wonder sometimes with August's he has not witnessed us entirely. I go from zero to like rage about mom stuff or whatever her needs that are coming up, you know, and I'm like, I he's still I'm handing him some of some of my trauma, some of the family lineage of trauma don't be afraid to pass some of that on to you just have to show them how you do it.

Tom Sherry 1:07:47
That's yeah, that's that's the you know, don't don't be afraid. Don't be your I said you're better off being you're better off making mistakes with confidence. Then you are being ambivalent and uncertain when it comes to like just be it's just trust yourself and just do what you feel is right. I mean, do your work. Pay attention pay attention to your own feelings, pay attention your kids feel like take it seriously. But you got to you know, like trust the system. Trust the your love and trust their love and trust evolution is kind of my whole Go

Anne Sherry 1:08:25
and repair don't be afraid to repair and say you're right. I fucked up That was weird.

Alison Cebulla 1:08:31
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, Tom, well, thank you. It's good to see you. Yeah. We'll have to have you on again soon for double double has been a wife therapy our There we go. It's so it's so fun to talk to you both since you both have such a good clear understanding on so I have done so much work. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 1:08:58
I my favorite phrase is I'm the most expensive car I've ever driven.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai