Ep13: Toxic Positivity...and also, Why Do I Hate People So Much?

Transcript

Alison Cebulla 0:06
Hi welcome to another episode of latchkey urges

Anne Sherry 0:09
and friends I was trying to do a like a Christmas carol did did it a friend

Alison Cebulla 0:17
I love Christmas music so much I'm so excited.

Anne Sherry 0:21
Playing in Lowe's fucking August whatever. Yeah shit.

Alison Cebulla 0:27
So before we get started and today we do not have a guest we are going to do something a little different where Anna and I just check in on an on a topic and our topic today is toxic positivity. But before we get going on that we want to start asking you all for submissions for our holiday episodes. We I don't know if this will be one. Yeah, we'll probably do one episode where we would like to crowdsource your stories. You're funny. And and listen, we know that that trauma is trauma, and that these experiences have may have left a painful mark. But we also like to bring light and healing through humor. So we're looking for your humorous Christmas dysfunctional family stories.

Anne Sherry 1:14
Yes. And comedy The definition of comedy is tragedy plus time.

Alison Cebulla 1:18
Oh, I love that. I love that. So it could be I don't know how many minutes there going to be this is our first time trying this but like if you go to our website, which is latchkey urchins.com And then you click on the tab that says tell us we have a little you can record yourself and it submits it to us and then we can play that on our show and if you would rather type your story and have us read it I'm that do that too. And our email is latchkey urchins@gmail.com So we cannot wait to hear your humorous dysfunctional holiday

Anne Sherry 1:57
story. Yes Thanksgiving Christmas go ahead throw some Easter in there any holidays.

Alison Cebulla 2:02
Maybe well we want Christmas we want our night owl right you're gonna be Christmas Christmas or Kwanzaa or Hanukkah or you

Anne Sherry 2:11
okay, the December holiday December holiday November, December, whatever is new.

Alison Cebulla 2:17
Oh, yeah. Yeah, take a Thanksgiving. We'll take a Thanksgiving story if you've got one.

Anne Sherry 2:22
I Are we not still also collecting funny ass poop stories?

Alison Cebulla 2:28
By me we have the first episode we have I asked at all. So we will take your poop stories that will be a different episode. But if you have a humorous bathroom story, just Yes. We want to hear that as well. And don't worry, we won't mix them up won't play your poop story for our Christmas episode.

Anne Sherry 2:45
But you get extra credit if your holiday story involves some shit. Extra credit. So if you can do that you win. An all expenses paid trip. Now we can't do that we can't advertising something

Alison Cebulla 3:06
I would love where we we could have people win things from us in the future. It's a dream goals. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so, please go to our website, latchkey urchins.com. Click on tell us, send us your recording. Or email us latchkey urchins@gmail.com Also, please subscribe, like, share. Thank you so much. I gotta say that it really really, really matters and counts. If you could go to Apple podcasts and leave us a review. This would be great. Thank you. Yeah,

Anne Sherry 3:40
a positive review. Not positive review. Okay. Okay. No, no go toxic. Hey, it's toxic is like super overboard.

Alison Cebulla 3:51
Go toxic reviews,

Anne Sherry 3:54
we're gonna tell you ways not to fall into the toxic positivity trap with your own healing. How about that? Okay,

Alison Cebulla 4:01
perfect. So, okay, so and, yeah, let us set up our listeners with what why did we decide that we needed to talk about this topic today?

Anne Sherry 4:12
This is something you and I have been riffing on for years, I think. Yeah, it's kinda and I've also seen it, it's pretty buzzword II now. Like, you see it. I mean, I just typed in toxic positivity to Google and like a ton of stuff comes up. I mean, just the word toxic is saying somehow positivity is crossed over into something that's probably harmful. So just to give a quick definition from what I the first thing that came up on Google, that's my source, comma, period, APA, whatever. I'll let Alison do that. So toxic positivity involves dismissing negative emotions and responding to distress with false reassurances rather than empathy, I would put in there Compassion Over empathy. And I might talk a little bit about the difference between compassion and empathy. A little bit later here, it comes from feeling uncomfortable with negative emotions, it is often well intentioned, and we will say that it's not all one thing or the other. It's often well intentioned, but it can cause alienation and a feeling of disconnection, alienation and feeling disconnection, what does that remind you of childhood emotional neglect. If you suffer from childhood emotional neglect, you happen to be I would say you would, you may fall into if it's a trap, or whatever, but you may be more susceptible to the messages and the way they come out and, and wanting to sort of hand over your healing journey to somebody who says I can fix that feeling of alienation and disconnection, you know, that sort of feels like that's what's promised. And I don't even know how to fucking unpack this man, like, so. We just talked about it a fair amount. It's all over the place. People are talking about it, but it's bigger than ever. It is a billion dollar industry.

Alison Cebulla 6:19
Yeah, I want to start with each of us giving a little bit of our personal history. I think that, you know, that's something that we offer, that I think we do pretty well on this podcast is that we want to normalize the, you know, difficult topics for people by sharing our own vulnerabilities. So I want to talk about my personal history with toxic positivity, because as I've shared, I don't know if I've shared on air, I can't remember. But I used to be a public speaker on the topics of kindness and gratitude. Fact, I have a piece in the Huffington Post about how to have a kind of thanksgiving. That, you know, I tend to repost every year around the holidays that I don't necessarily agree with everything that I wrote, you know, back then six years ago.

Anne Sherry 7:10
But I loved your kindness work, though. I Oh, thank you. Now the part of you or whatever it like just said, I think you felt you had said I felt really judgmental. I'm curious about it. Like, what is this? And I was like,

Alison Cebulla 7:22
I did it. And it was good. And I was like, I felt judgmental, and I need to be kinder, and I want to look at that. But if you if you white knuckle your personal habits, and you only do the behavior change without looking at why was it that way in the first place, you are missing out on your healing, and it's going to come up and for me it came up in a way where I had to stay at a psychiatric hospital. When I finally looked at all of the trauma. I mean, I never thought to ask myself, Why was I unkind in the first place? And that question is faqih loaded. That question will make me cry for years. Yeah. And when I that finally hit me that the very emotional environment of my childhood and for my parents childhood, and for my grandparents, child 100%.

Anne Sherry 8:08
The end was,

Alison Cebulla 8:10
well me on on so fucking mean all the time, just so much contempt, just so much contempt. And you and I were talking about that film inside out, which was a collaboration with Dr. Keltner, a psychologist at UC Berkeley and who I love and I always am reading all of his stuff. And someone asked him, What was the emotional what, what was what was your big emotion of your childhood? And he said contempt. And that makes me feel better because he helped make this beautiful film about joy being someone's primary emotion or sadness being someone's primary emotion. And he said contempt, and I just was like, I feel seen.

Anne Sherry 8:46
Yes, yes. Yes. Was it content? Well, we'll go on, like,

Alison Cebulla 8:53
Yeah, sure. I define what contempt is for our listeners. So contempt is the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless or deserving scorn. And so the way that contempt showed up in my household was How dare you want to eat dinner again? How dare you want a hug? How dare you ask for something that you need? How dare you like what you like? Because there was some financial insecurity. So there's these economic things that make it so that the opposite of contempt is really like nurturing and warmth and love of like, oh my gosh, I'm so happy you exist. Yeah. Oh my gosh, let me make this loving meal for you. Oh my God, let me give you a big hug. That's the opposite of contempt.

Anne Sherry 9:39
So yeah,

Alison Cebulla 9:41
so yeah, my so just

Anne Sherry 9:43
having contempt for your own needs, right? I mean, like, Oh, my God, it's internal. And then it gets like projected outwards. Right? Right. And

Alison Cebulla 9:51
so for me, I did the kindness challenge and people still to this day will say that your work inspired me and I want to do that again. And I want to offer it again. And but if you are just trying to willpower, your way through kindness without asking yourself, How did contempt hurt me? And how can I heal those wounds? It is going to come up and it could come up in ways that are very destructive.

Anne Sherry 10:15
Yes, yes. Yeah. And for myself, you know, I had to my judgment and hate. I kept all that under wraps my I had this persona of like, I am so gregarious, I really love what you're doing, but I don't know. I mean, it just would show up and this I mean, it did not really start to shift for me until I was able to embrace it. Say, I'm somebody who, you know, like it workshops and stuff I would enter and be like, Why do I fucking hate I'm immediately we talked about this a little bit we do coaching circles. I would immediately hate I would have to size up everybody. Yep. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you in this way. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I

Alison Cebulla 11:03
hate you. So I do that.

Anne Sherry 11:05
Yeah, I mean, it's it I got what for me was I I do it a whole lot less I feel a lot safer in my body. Now. Thus, I feel safer in groups. But it was a way to like belong, I think it had the longing qualities to it. It was a way to feel safe. It was a way to like I need to size everybody up so that I can fit in you know, so I'm so I just there was a point I've been in a billion trainings, a billion workshops. He's like body centered. Oh, some fucking shit where you have to, like stand around and stare into each other's eyes and bullshit like that. You know? Like,

Alison Cebulla 11:43
that can be that's, that's toxic, that can be

Anne Sherry 11:47
good. I just do it. I just have I am so grateful to my haters and haters. And the ones who where I look like I'm good at it. People are like, Oh, my God, you were so present for me. I'm like, No, I wasn't. Wow. No, I was totally dissociated. That's my I didn't tell them that. But I was like, I know, I'm really here, you know,

Alison Cebulla 12:06
but here's my criticism of the eye gazing shit. And I don't think no, no, is that it's like a false intimacy really, really fast. And so I used to love that kind of stuff. I went to an eye gazing thing at a, I was teaching like a goddess circle or like holding a goddess circle at this Yoga Studio in New York City. And they had an eye gazing and I went, and it's very addicting.

Anne Sherry 12:30
Because Ken, how long did y'all do that?

Alison Cebulla 12:32
I think we did just a couple of minutes per person. And I switched people,

Anne Sherry 12:36
you know, oh, yeah, you do the thing where you go down the line or whatever.

Alison Cebulla 12:39
I mean, it ended up being really good for me because I realized that I had issues with other people. And I ended up the facilitator. I ended up hiring her as my life coach, because I was like, she was like, by the way, I offer coaching and I could tell how comfortable she felt kind of being like fun and flirty in this like group setting. It was like a kind of a fun and flirty energy. And I realized like, I wasn't comfortable. And she was one of the first people who helped me see some of my childhood trauma and was able and how I was relating to people. So it did lead me to this good healing thing. But what I realized now looking back is that that's not a replacement for intimacy and yet people going are looking for intimacy and and they're not getting it. It feels like they're getting it but they're not it's I think it's very culty Do you want I mean,

Anne Sherry 13:25
oh, right for that, I mean, I I just it's hard to even know so we're just gonna cover it the best we can right in tell us like we got it completely wrong or you're way off here. I'm open for anything. Because it's I love this. We've used this metaphor I mean it's a good one it's the elephant in the comes to the city center whatever and all the white I think it's a wise man but I'm just to say the wise humans of the village go and you can only touch a part of it and you're like, This is the answer. You know, the reality is a long tail you know? No reality is a flat leathery thing you know, so we got we got one bit here on our own experience with I'm worried is I think my we're talking about this I am worried about people about the power of this what's called Tata like positivity work. Don't trust yourself. Don't trust your motions. This is what it feels like. It's saying don't trust that you can heal like it's not heal on your own, but I've got the answer for you. It's all these very American, here are the steps. Here's the prescription, take my program, take my pills. Oh, yeah. And if you don't, then something's wrong with you because my program is perfect because I'm perfect. You know, so is it.

Alison Cebulla 14:50
I mean, led to fucking Canada, right. So again, like so here. So, let me do like such a quick history and then you do and I'll try to do a history. Okay. I'm gonna try and do it quick. But there's so many pieces. Okay. So I got into using hard drugs as a teenager, and I went to rehab at age 20, from my methamphetamine and cocaine addiction. And then on the other side of that, you know, you have to go to Narcotics Anonymous meetings as part of like any rehab, it's the only fucking thing that we offer, it doesn't work very well, the studies show 12 steps, they don't work very well, they're okay. But they don't actually really

Anne Sherry 15:32
know. It's one piece of the elephant.

Alison Cebulla 15:35
I don't even know the the public health data is not conclusive that they that they do anything, by the way like that, like, okay, a

Anne Sherry 15:44
lot of people get a lot of connection and support, I would say,

Alison Cebulla 15:48
I'm not shitting on him. I'm not shitting on him. I'm just saying the public health data is not conclusive. That's all I'm trying to say. And so I think they need to be re evaluated. I think there's goodness, I think it's important to have community, I've gone to good 12 step meetings, I've gone to awful 12 step meetings, do you I mean, like the whole thing needs to be reevaluated. Anyway. Yes. So there's all those great memes about, you know, I went to recovery, and I the worst part about going into recovery is coming out religious, and you have to believe in a higher power. And so instead of that, so this is a big thing where I have, and the origin of of the 12 step programs is very culty. Very culty. It's like, you know, is modeled after a cult. And it's, it's actually not a cult, because there's no money going to the top. But it has cult like elements like repeating these thoughts, stopping phrases, and all this sort of thing. Um, and so you go, and they tell you just follow these 10 steps, or do these 12 steps. Just repeat these phrases. And I think a lot of the phrases and a lot of the books have whatever is very shaming, the messaging is very shaming, and it's not healing, and it's not trauma informed. So instead of doing my trauma work, I just learned that I have stinking thinking, and you know, one day at a time that it is some of it's nice, but you're not healing, you're not healing, and, and oftentimes just sitting in a room with some of the people with the worst of the worst trauma. And I don't think that that's always a great healing environment. If if people someone in the room doesn't have the knowledge that you need to get out of it. Yeah, it can be nice to like, feel like you relate. But I think that was an entry point for me into toxic positivity. That the recovery community really just says, you. There's no there's not, it's not trauma informed. So it's like, it's really all about just repeat the positive mantras, just believe in your higher power. And just asked, just pray to God more that I believe it.

Anne Sherry 17:45
What's the message under there that you're a piece of shit, and you just have to do these things? Do you think? Yeah, and force it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that kind of goes into like, our deep religious stuff, right? Like, it was modeled after? Yeah, because like original sin, you're, there's no way that like, you can't do it.

Alison Cebulla 18:03
They do not want to talk about it, just do not say you're a piece of shit. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Okay. So and it's a lot about, you just need to change your thoughts and actions and behaviors, and there's nothing with healing or examining the fact that you may have been hurt. And, um, and then I started there, I moved to Asheville, I started therapy. And my therapist who I really liked you referred me to, and was great for me. I needed a therapist, but she was like, it sounds like you get really overwhelmed by despair. When you recurrent events. Maybe Why didn't you take a break from reading the news, which was probably a good idea. Actually, I probably need to do right now. Yes, but I felt okay to take breaks. Yeah, I found this magazine probably at GreenLife. Grocery

Anne Sherry 18:49
and have mercy. Well, Angel oracle was,

Alison Cebulla 18:53
oh, ODE magazine. And it had like good news only. And I was like, great. I'll just read good news only. But there was a lot of propaganda in there toxic positivity, propaganda. And so, you know, like, that's like where I found the book abundance that tries to bring. This is Peter Diamandis, who does the XPrize where he raises like billions of dollars to tackle like big worldly challenges, which is really cool. But this book is sort of trying to convince you that there's like infinite resources and and then you kind of get on it's like the MLM, or like the capitalism mindset of like, just make the pie bigger. It's like, no way. There are limited resources, class structures do exist. Yeah. And the old magazine was also promoting a lot of these people, like the Marianne Williamson or the Barbara Marx Hubbard, Barbara Marx. Hubbard is someone who thought that the world was going to come to end it December 22 2012, which is my birthday by the way, that was the end of the world. And I'm all of these like, quote visionaries. Who are just full of crap? By the way, a disclaimer, we're not trying to malign any people. We're just being curious.

Anne Sherry 20:10
But are we getting big enough to be sued

Alison Cebulla 20:13
for maybe? I don't know what. I don't know, I

Anne Sherry 20:16
listened to how people talk about this stuff. I feel like yeah, anyways, it's not a personal attack. It's not one on one tackler

Alison Cebulla 20:23
and we're not personally attacking anyone who believes in this stuff. We're just trying to understand better. So, um, so I got on board with all of those people. That was the power of positive thinking, because my therapist was kind of like, you're focusing on the bad too much. Your depression is taking over. So then I went no swing over to just focusing on the positive. But again, where was the trauma healing?

Anne Sherry 20:49
Yeah. Now, if it's, it's somewhere between the two of those, right? Way more in it's like in the muck in the mire, and the whatever. Yeah. So

Alison Cebulla 21:01
I just have one more example, then I'll turn it over to you, which is that I did the kindness challenge. I

Anne Sherry 21:09
failed that challenge. And like, for a day, I was like, go fuck yourself, Allison. I'm not doing this. So.

Alison Cebulla 21:17
Yeah, that's where I couldn't say anything bad about myself or anyone else. For six months. I did it. It changed my life. It transformed my life. It really was good. I kept doing it. I kept doing it. I kept doing it. Pretty soon I was writing for The Huffington Post. I was speaking on stages. I got to speak at the Bulletproof Biohacking Conference in 2018 about it, and the Bulletproof Biohacking Conference. That's the Dave Asprey, the bulletproof guy. Once I got there, I all of a sudden had this really sick feeling to my stomach of like something is wrong here. Because I think the conference Yeah. Yeah, it was in LA Pasadena. And people I think paid like $1,000 a ticket to be there. And it was like a lot of really, really, really wealthy white people. And I, for example, I met Rick Rubin there. He's a producer. That music producer, okay. He produced like the Beastie Boys and like, Oh, okay. Okay. I know the names of anybody. Okay. Yeah, he's produced like, everybody. He's real cool. Yeah. And those were the types of people who were there. And they and I realized it was like wealthy white people wellness, where they just wanted to buy, you know, adaptogens nootropics. The brain chemical stuff, a little vibrating plate that you stand on that helps you lose weight. And

Anne Sherry 22:36
everything. Oh, jiggle machine. Yeah. Take a machine. I don't. We were six. We would jiggle. Our heads are awesome. I love it. Sure. Yeah. We'll put it put it. Yeah, I'll do it. There's a little gift on Yeah, I don't know. So I had my

Alison Cebulla 22:53
full full come to Jesus moment meltdown in 2016. So about six months after that Bulletproof Biohacking Conference. So there was a seed of skepticism planted where I was like, Wait, you can't just buy happiness in a pill.

Anne Sherry 23:08
But what was it the devil? Are you sure?

Alison Cebulla 23:13
I don't know. Okay. So I was there, you know, at this conference, and I thought something is wrong, something is wrong. And now you know, fast forward six years and Dave Asprey just hosted Joe Dispenza as his keynote speaker, who's an anti Vax one of the disinformation doesn't terrible terrible, terrible shit. So it's funny because I was picking up on it then even before we got to

Anne Sherry 23:37
pick up on it your body, right? Your body was talking to you. This is really important, like trauma flings us out of our bodies, we don't trust it anymore. I mean, like, there's a long history of just humans have been fucking assholes to each other for eternity almost. So over it just keeps getting handed down. This is why what's working with trauma work is bringing it into the body body centered, getting curious about what am I like paying attention to a body sensation that says something doesn't feel right here, right? Rather than like, oh, you need to, I don't know your fucking chakras are off or something, which maybe they are, I don't know. But like if there's good information, but in the body, and yeah, so but we're afraid of our bodies. So that's why it's hard. That takes a long time to be friend and embody yourself to get to trust that information that's coming.

Alison Cebulla 24:33
Exactly. And so one of the moments which again, not trying to launch a misaligned anyone, but when I met Dave Asprey, I understand that it was his conference and he was frazzled, and he was running around, but his whole thing was like he used to be obese. He went to Nepal he discovered butter coffee.

Anne Sherry 24:53
Oh, I just listened to a good spirituality that

Alison Cebulla 24:56
okay, it's coffee

Anne Sherry 24:58
shit. It is Burn. Yeah. Anyways, okay. Yeah, he follow them too. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 25:05
he tried. Yes. He tried all these different things. He lost all the weight he got, he got better he got right with himself or like, you know what I mean? And wants to share that with everyone, which I think is super noble and I'm not putting that down in any way. But when I met him, he didn't seem good. Is he? He didn't seem good. Yeah. So that was something in my head where I was, I was still worshipping gurus. I was still worshipping gurus. Yeah, but I hadn't made the connection yet of like, why that was bad. Like, why you might want to not put someone on his pedestal? I hadn't. I wasn't there yet.

Anne Sherry 25:40
But right there, okay. Just the word. I'm putting somebody on a pedestal. Don't do that. Well, we're

Alison Cebulla 25:47
gonna do it. We're gonna do so why do we do it? Why do we do it?

Anne Sherry 25:50
Why don't we do it? Yeah, well, because we feel like shit. Like, somehow based on our experiences based on socio economic stuff based on emotional neglect. The neglect of this culture or whatever. I mean, if you don't feel whole and loved here, then then you just walk in the world with like, I don't feel loved. I don't feel like I belong. That person. You're kind of like, I obviously get that book. Are you my mother? Are you my mother?

Alison Cebulla 26:22
Exactly. Right? I've witnessed that thing. Yeah, my

Anne Sherry 26:27
first therapist if she had not been, I, I couldn't, my shit was so felt so fucked up. But she and she would sit there and be with me. And listen and the nurturance. And I mean, she was practicing hakomi, which is a body centered therapy, which we'll put in the show notes that we probably already have. But then she'd be like, oh, like at the end? You know, I have just poured my heart. She's like, well, time's up. I gotta go to Pilates. I was like, how is that possible? And that's so some of that, that I just remember that is like, oh, it's it, like communicated to me. Like, I can take all your shit serious. But I'm gonna, like, patch you up as best I can. You know, like, I mean, there's no way to do it without it's not going to be this perfect. There's no prescription for this really, there's really, it's just presence. And there was something something about her ability to be with me in such an authentic way but her to also just have this very normal life like it it somehow my system registered like, oh, I kind of want that, you know, I want to be able to be deep and real, but also like, I gotta go take a shit now. You know. We love you know, our little ship conversations. So it's been sacred and profane a little bit, I guess. Stitching stitching stuff is that was that was huge for me, because I was like, I couldn't believe it. But then I was like, but it's possible. The world is still moving. No. Okay, so

Alison Cebulla 28:07
this is perfect for I have this one last example that I want to hear your personal history.

Anne Sherry 28:12
Oh, honey, I'm 53 How much time do we have going

Alison Cebulla 28:16
for today? I don't know. Just give us a cup of tea. Okay, I walked into a cafe in New York City. In 2013. I was there for a job interview, which I got and then I moved to New York City. I walked into a cafe, a little coffee shop in Greenpoint, cafe grumpy. And

Anne Sherry 28:34
of course she did.

Alison Cebulla 28:37
She chose to immediately spot Malcolm Gladwell, who was like my now i ultimate pedestal person. And I was like, I know him. Like, I know what he looks like. I'm obsessed. I love his writing. I think he's such a good writer that it especially at that point, I feel I don't guru worship him anymore. But at that time, I think I was 28 years old, and I was guru worshipping fangirling again. Yeah. And there were only two seats of the cafe available and one was right next to him. And so I made myself go sit next to him. I was like, don't take that other seat. You go sit next to your you know. And so I sat next to him. And I immediately emailed my mentor, my writing mentor. His name is Jared Simpson. He was a former boss of mine. He was probably like, 70. And I was like, Jared, I'm sitting next to Malcolm fucking Gladwell, like, what do I do? And he got back to me later after the moment he passed. He was like, Girl, like, why don't you just ask him like, what's the muffin selection? Like, like, he's just like,

Anne Sherry 29:37
he is a human. And shit.

Alison Cebulla 29:42
Yeah. Like it? Yeah, yeah.

Anne Sherry 29:46
Yeah, no, I know. A freezer some. Yes, all of that. Which

Alison Cebulla 29:53
I redeemed myself. I ran into him again a couple years later at another coffee shop. Yeah. And I said I walked up to If I said I love that story that you wrote for the moth about ruining your friend's wedding, and he said, Oh, I didn't actually ruin my friend's wedding, I'm not that much of an asshole. And my jaw dropped the floor because it was supposed to be a true story. Like for the moms and I was like,

Anne Sherry 30:16
whoring and curating people start curating their, their whatever to fit something. I don't know, PR people get ahold of people. So

Alison Cebulla 30:26
hey, yeah, so that I was like, and it just every guru thing.

Yeah, so anyway, but I redeemed myself for myself, because I was able to have a normal conversation with them.

Anne Sherry 30:41
Yes, yes. Sorry. Good. Okay. Okay, so

Alison Cebulla 30:44
now what's your toxic positive? Cory

Anne Sherry 30:47
Booker? I don't know if I ever got to toxic positive. That's why I'm so fucking worried about

Alison Cebulla 30:55
you still have Marianne Williamson and data that you have your shed? Yeah. Well, this

Anne Sherry 30:59
is the fucked up thing. Because this is what's it's not that it's, you have to erase all of it. There is some really good shit. I mean, love yourself. Sounds great. You know

Alison Cebulla 31:14
what? It's like, if you just love yourself without asking what happened to you? It's no good. No. I get

Anne Sherry 31:24
my encouragement to people is like, just don't don't hook line and sinker this shit. You know, just take a little bit like what you might gain some practices. But as soon as you start in, I'm gonna go into my heel and start howto. Yeah. The world? Oh, so many ways. As soon as people start saying, I think I already just shared this. Here's the prescription these five steps in 40 days. I mean, Masten Kipps. Goddamn. Live your purpose from now on trademark. What? From now on. So once you take his seminars, you bet enough you find that purpose in that giant auditorium and you do the like, prosperity, Christianity, peace there. When do you have an enlightened experience? You're supposed to be so you decide your purpose is I will What? I don't know. Like, I don't know something that usually with them. It's like, make a bunch of fucking money. You have a bad year, you have a bad month. You're a fuckup like exactly your purpose at Mass and Kipps. Giant auditorium workshop. I just feel it. There's the they, if you've turned if you muted him, and Jerry Falwell and all those fucking preachers looks the same. The way they marched around on this day, just very charismatic. And I don't know healing to me is like, it's real. It's often very quiet. It's send your therapist office. It's with your

Alison Cebulla 32:54
cold and lonely Holliger. Yeah, like that songs.

Anne Sherry 32:58
I love playing the break. It's just all of it belongs. So my. Oh my god. I'll try to do a little bit of highlighting really the highlights where I had these moments of like, No, trust yourself. No, it's okay. One was when I started decided I wanted to be a therapist of some descript I'm working at Kinkos live in the dream. This was

Alison Cebulla 33:29
Francisco. old are you?

Anne Sherry 33:34
What year was that? It was late. 90s. So I was like, 2030 30. Okay. 30 Yeah, I think I was there for anyways, like, I can't remember you whip out these fucking dates. You're like, that was 2013. I'm like, Girl, it is like so many years. Anyways, um, let's see flip phones. I think we had flip phones at that time. Nice. So I'll do it by technology. But I wound up I'd had a hakomi therapists and I had not gone to my getting your letters, a colleague getting your letters like master's degree. Yep. But I was able to do work at Kinkos and do the two year training. It was a they would let not Call me.

Alison Cebulla 34:18
Call me to me. Yeah, not the Kinkos training, not the Kinkos.

Anne Sherry 34:23
But yeah, I found myself it attracts a lot of people that are on healing paths and like all kinds of energy healing, which, whatever, just all kinds of stuff. People have been to India, they're following somebody. They do yoga every day. They have meditation practices. The Zen Center was up the street from me. I couldn't fucking do any of that shit. And I was like, Well, it's because you're a lesser human. You know, you're just barely there. Barely. They don't you really shouldn't even be here, you know, because you haven't been to India. But I would just beat the shit out of myself. I was like, oh, when do you I'm gonna go to India. I'm gonna get To guru it was the Are you my mother? Are you my mother? Are you my mother? Because I didn't have a goddamn fucking mother. I had one. But I think that's part of it. We didn't have that maternal nurturance like nurturance. So it makes you susceptible to well, how are you doing it? You look good, and it's working. But there was a moment where I was like, You know what, fucking stop it. And some of it was the hakomi training sort of said, you know, it was practices that helped you trust yourself a bit more, a lot more. Trust your body. And I was like, I don't want to Guru. I don't want to go to India. I don't want to have diarrhea and go into ecstatic states and you know, ride around naked on the floor and shit. Like, I don't know, I'd somehow something came over me and said, Why do you want all that shit? I can't I don't meditate. I can't. I don't want to. I don't know if I can. So you know, like, oh, I let go of all of that. And so I don't know divine intervention somewhere. Something was just like, or from the inside was just just see if you can show up like you and I actually started speaking more to this is who I am. I work at Kinkos I work at Kinkos I haven't been to India. I can barely afford this training. You know? Yeah. So it kinda there was just these little bits of like, long stretches of being lost being stuck in a marriage. I didn't want to be in you know, because I couldn't try and to make that marriage positive.

Alison Cebulla 36:27
I don't know I'm getting that.

Anne Sherry 36:29
I know how to talk about it. Yeah, I don't know. I guess my message is this shit takes a long time and trust your self take what fits for you. But there's no one way to this healing as many people as there are on the planet that's as many paths as there are to healing. So these prescriptive things that sell a lot of fucking money in this culture. Right? It's all I mean, I'm on Gabby Bernstein. I'm just like trying to like do my research so I'm on Gabi Bernstein's I'm on her whatever you call it, email list or something that you can send out I'm not calling her a bitch. Maybe I did just call her not just a general but that she could send out or her PR team or her whoever sends out so many emails, but like if you have you know this one about Super attractor it's a apparently it's her highest vibe book whatever that means. I use reader readers tell her it's her favorite book. I give you clear and simple techniques for manifesting a life beyond your wildest learn

Alison Cebulla 37:41
you'll learn how to live a spiritual life every single day. What does that mean? Instead of just dabbling? Like why is why would you have what is? We wait so what is first I want to pull in my example of recovery and and the origins of what drew me to and I did get deep into the New Age spiritual world I did I read all the Carolyn myths. I read all

Anne Sherry 38:06
Yeah, yeah. I know but I don't actually read the shit I read. You actually read this is a this is where I'm like now coming into like, thank God and actually thank God I have ADD, I don't actually read ships, very deeply. Books and so just seeing them on my bookshelf. They didn't have an you know, they didn't. Or impacts. I

Alison Cebulla 38:30
read the New Age shit. I read the Eckhart Tolle, I read the Carroll admis. I read the Byron bits of

Anne Sherry 38:36
Awesome, okay. Okay. All right. So you're the expert on this. I'm gonna

Alison Cebulla 38:40
but my entry into that world really was addiction recovery. It really, really was. It was like, Yeah, I need to transform this energy and be a better yeah. And so I want to acknowledge that if someone is feeling the depths of despair, I'm a recovering addict. I don't I feel nothing got into the New Age shit, the manifesting the changing your life the positive thinking can be healing and I want to just say that I definitely can't that's why people

Anne Sherry 39:09
don't want to like, look but don't want to do that.

Alison Cebulla 39:11
But it is bad. And that's because like I want to that people find it Yeah, because they're in pain. But when you look at and this is why you just have to listen to the conspiratorial ality podcast because they have episodes breaking this down.

Anne Sherry 39:28
The most important podcast. Do not miss this podcast do not massively the most important podcast we have out there right now to keep us out of what it is con artists on artists. Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 39:41
yeah. Okay. Um, basically, the myth is and it really truly is a myth. That if you just think positively enough, and we want to go into the so Horatio Alger was one of the first novelists in America who was writing stories about people pulling themselves out by their bootstraps and and so we've had, you know, and then Napoleon Hill had thinking grow rich. And then there was like the positive power positive thinking. And there's

Anne Sherry 40:12
that when Flint

Alison Cebulla 40:14
people Yeah, yeah, Habits of Highly Effective data that's so there was a whole movement around, you could just change your thoughts a little bit and be more positive and make a lot of money and be rags to riches. However, when you look at the actual quote, American Dream, which is come here with nothing, and come out on the other side with a lot, we have some of the least economic upward mobility of developed nations here in the United States. So people typically stay poor here, and wealthy people stay wealthy. So and I will link to some sources in the show notes so that you can take a look at these at the data, but it's really really and that's my other favorite podcast is pitchfork economics and explain this really wide every now. But basically, the rags to riches storyline is just a storyline. And that's where I get really angry with the Gabby Bernstein, Phil, Lena browers, etc, etc, is like, um, first of all manifesting just thinking your way, the thinking Grow Rich piece, which by the way, Napoleon Hill was an actual con artist, an actual con artist, and that's still one of the most popular nonfiction books on the market is that it's not real, you can't think your way into prosperity like that is a lie. It is nice. Like I said, if if you're feeling shitty, and you want to improve your life and feel better, some of these practices can be good. But ultimately, there's kind of this pyramid scheme happening in the United States where the people at the top have figured out how to manipulate the people in the bottom into thinking that they have more mobility than they do. And the way that they do that is they go, it's your fault personally, it's personally and if you're not trying hard enough, it's your fault. And the structural pieces are real, and very,

Anne Sherry 42:07
very real. And that's when I knew that you were helping me No, no, no, no, that Yeah, so

Alison Cebulla 42:14
when you just do Byron Katie, which our guest, Alicia said that that stuff really helped her and it helped me to, it was helpful to say, let me look at my thoughts and see how these are hurting or harming me. But the problem with that kind of thing is like saying, if you are suffering, it's because your thoughts suck. And that is a slap in the face to people who are at the bottom rungs associated economically in our society, and the enslavement of African people in the United States. And the suffering that still happens today is real. And that's a no one's fault, except for the rich fuckers who enslaved them in the first place and you cannot tell a black person in America it's because you're not manifesting enough and that's why you're suffering and that is such bullshit. In fact, it's also training the wealthy white people in our society to look the other way because you can just the secret your way into a better society it's like no you need to show up and change the policies so that black people can actually gain wealth in our society you know and in my city here it is written into the housing deeds that black people are not allowed to own the homes here it's

Anne Sherry 43:22
same in Nashville it same everywhere like it was that house I live in I pulled up the D I pulled up the 1929 it was like you could not sell this you cannot sell this home to I'm quoting here Negro or a person of ill repute Yeah, so we Yeah,

Alison Cebulla 43:39
you positive thinking your way fucked up shit and that's and that is where that is the crux of toxic positivity is that no you need to see what's negative you need to see what's bad you need to clearly see the evil forces in the world and you need to go counter attack those evil forces with all your might yes

Anne Sherry 43:59
and fine, but I just dropped my mic on all right, love it and Okay, so the personal pieces here it was like gone like thoughts were coming out but you were just sorry I had to get a what I had. Okay, love it. I fucking love it. So both things have to happen all the time right yes yes but being so I mean what shifted for me and I worked on I was like why do I hate people so much like and but had to have this very positive external and I'm really grateful for whatever whatever like how I approached the world just there is like a cooperative or giving or it looks like I really cared but i Deep in my you know, in my I'd be like, Oh fucking Hey, hate that person or hate this person or, like, I hate this, like, I just the love was kind of fake. It was. Yeah. And then so I couldn't really sustain any sort of community involvement, I guess, or my, what I call somebody else out of word for this, but the independent personality disorder, you know, I didn't want to, like help or be helped or engage in community or so I would put myself I was it was like, I was this weird robot person that was trying to learn how to care, you know, even not too long ago, like joining my church. Like I would watch how people like put comments like when somebody has a tragedy, like I couldn't this these are the things I got curious about, I would have

Alison Cebulla 45:48
to copy it wasn't didn't feel genuine.

Anne Sherry 45:51
Be like a robot, I'd be like, what is the consensus on the pot on the thread of how to say sorry, for this person's loss?

Alison Cebulla 46:00
That's relatable. That's

Anne Sherry 46:01
why can I just wait, where is my heart, I was like, the goddamn fucking Tin Man, I have access to it or something. But I knew how to like I knew how to make it look good, you know. And so I was like, so that phrase, fake it till you make it, I guess that sort of applied on some level, but what really, I think kept shifting one I just engaged in therapy, I the types of modalities that I learned I was drawn to, it's sort of a reinforcement of, you know, body centered therapy, but it was it really taught me that you just got a lot of hurt under there, like my core organizers where I don't belong. I don't feel loved. So, so that's what sort of running the show like the little, I'm going through a Wizard of Oz here, like, you know, stay with. Yeah, you know, he's like, whoa, this thing or that thing, or here's the law of the land or something. But you pull back the curtain, and there's just this little loss, dude. They're just trying to keep it all together. That's who I think doesn't get worked with and these big grand toxic positivity things? Exactly. wounds. So you can manage this shit. They're very good. They're very managerial lead, let me give you the answer. Let me it's very much white supremacy culture a bit like we're addicted to the steps are the, but he call it like the mastery of it, you know? And so you have this master that's doing it and you can't help but say, Why am I not like that person. Or if I just do these steps, I mean, again, how to back to Gabby Bernstein a little bit how to leave fear in the past and in a brake brace each new day with a profound sense of joy and optimism. Now, don't leave fear in the past, all parts are welcome. Everything is welcome. So everything is welcome. And so it's befriending it's being a companion with what's showing up, right? Like, befriend all the parts of yourself. And I mean, this is Buddhism, I think, you know, or it's just like, be curious, can you find the observer, you know, have your own system, but there say, there's, this feels like there's this thing of like, I was a rags to riches, I was down and out. My guardian angel came and took my substance abuse away or something one day, I realized and then and so who doesn't want that? Like, yeah, I'll take your program. They charge a lots of money over time, right? I mean, I guess you know, when I say that, it's like, well, I've spent a lot of money in therapy and stuff like that, but it's like it was my there's something about like, find your I guess if it doesn't lead you to some level of being kind like you did the kindness first. Right. But I think if you don't come to kindness without deeply knowing and embracing some your own suffering so that you can be kind to the suffering of people around you and in your community like this thing on Masten Kipps website, I go to their testimonials. And usually, it's some form of like, I was down and out and now I have a big house or now I have a $10,000 day or now I have a $30,000 day after working with Masten for a few, a few hours or something, you know, or a few weeks. And I would love to see testimonials that say hmm, after working with this person, I found deep love in my heart and I now attend city council meetings and make my voice heard in my local community and nobody knows who I

Alison Cebulla 49:44
am really yeah, those are like not American values. So

Anne Sherry 49:48
now like this long, boring hard work, but if it comes from a place of love, like not Marianne Williamson fucking love Allison don't get all freaked out on that but like your own, she has

Alison Cebulla 49:59
changed No, should I just give you a hard time? I just she has some good teachings, but like her by her? Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, she's fine. She's fine. I think she has a lot of good stuff. She's just like a great example. But, um, um,

Anne Sherry 50:14
yeah, I don't know, if I spoke to my heel, I don't know, it feels so convoluted. And so all over the place. And I just, here's what it is. I think I just kept showing up for myself. I had to learn to do that. And it's not in this like, Well, no, it wasn't individual way for a long time. Right? It was big. But be so curious. Why do I hate so much? That's so weird. Like, why do I not want to be in relationship with my parents very much. Why do I Why do I not feel like I belong every single place that I go, but then I act like I belong. And it's very manic, you know, it's like, but that

Alison Cebulla 50:52
That's the American way is like, wow, you were just so good. You were talking about this last night. That, um, one of our friends has a girlfriend who's from France. And you know, I guess we were kind of joking about how I'm in the US. If you meet someone, they could be your best friend like two minutes later, but it's kind of cool. And he was like, oh, yeah, she always notices that because it's not like that in other cultures. You know, like in France, or, you know, live in the Netherlands. Like you have to get to know someone and build trust before. But here it's always just like, we have such especially in California. Like the it's all good surfer culture. Oh, I feel so connected. Oh, we're vibing good vibes only. You know,

Anne Sherry 51:38
I mean, I think I think when I it's something about the big grand gestures and the amounts of money that are being made again, the step it just doesn't feel that authentic. I mean, I am really happy. Most people that come into my office when it comes down to is I want to feel my authenticity and somewhere that was ripped away at some point in your developmental either by the culture, your neighborhood. I don't know some trauma in the family, but it was like Don't be yourself. Don't be yourself. I mean, look at little kids, they come into the world they're like, but they do that will you be my friend you know, at some level of getting back to that from an authentic place like your you don't feel like a I don't feel threatened by you. Right? Like so I do that now more like our somebody were Alicia who we're gonna interview a different Alicia. I just immediately fell in love with her. Like, I just love your energy like, and she was like, I really love but it's, it's that it's feeling more from an authentic place. I feel like I can say, I can give you this much of myself. And now I have to like I'm having a fuzzy boundaries. But I don't wait. And I think you said it. This thing of white knuckling. I'm white knuckling my kindness. Yeah. I'm white knuckling, whatever it's like, it's really, I don't know, if I said this on here or not. But you know, all this separation, like, you know, it's how close it is to like driving in a car, right? We're in these little boxes or whatever. And I can have a little bit of kindness. Sometimes. It's like, come on, come out, come into the intersection. You got it, you got it. But if you hesitate for a little while, I'm like, your fucking piece of shit, you know? But it's because I'm in a car all separated. But even that I'm like, I'll laugh at myself rather than I think if I were in Gabby's program, perhaps I'd be like, Oh, my God, I've completely lost my spiritual vibe. You know, that would be a big deal. Rather than like, now, I'm in a hurry. I don't know, I just You just, it's there's something about I learn. If your path isn't about trusting what's true for you? And yes, we learn from others, but just say I like that about them. I like this about them. But if you hook line and sinker, say, No, I'm doing this program. And I probably did put a lot of stock in some of the, like, hakomi trainings or I don't know, whatever. And then I would feel great that weekend, you know, I'm like, Oh, my God, so many realizations, but inevitably, because this is a it's a great awakening. Right? And it's I don't know how long it is for people. Mine was like my first therapy session, I was 24. At 53 I'm having some really neat realizations about oh, fuck, I do feel safe in the world. I do feel like I can speak. There was a time where when I spoke and a group, I would have a complete trauma response. Like, literally, I don't know why, but my voice would stop and I would fold in on myself. So I just stopped speaking, you know, I was like, that was so devastatingly embarrassing. I don't know. I just had to get curious about that for years for decades

Alison Cebulla 54:57
about your self worth. Why do you what do you mean? I

Anne Sherry 54:59
don't know. mean,

Alison Cebulla 55:00
what do you do? I

Anne Sherry 55:01
just had a trauma I like I spoke up in a meeting or something and my voice just shut down. It was very bizarre. I don't know what happened. This could be, I don't know, it's probably past life stuff. I bet I was hauling or something or was killed. I was

we I knew it would get a reaction out of you. That's why I said, Okay, I don't know, I don't know what happened. About speaking up in a group physiologically, it shut my shit down. I don't know why it happened. All I had to be curious about was like for decades, like how I made my life smaller and would not speak but it's been a path that was a seminal event to say, ah, something is really up here. But it's incredibly painful for years, you know, making my life super small. So,

Alison Cebulla 55:55
a guru, a toxically positive guru would say something to you such as, it's probably some hot cold. It's probably because that's Tony Robbins. Yeah, that's probably because you were a Nazi in your past life as a way to control you know, we need to turn this full circle on our topic. And yeah, just like, yeah,

Anne Sherry 56:13
what is our topic?

Alison Cebulla 56:15
Which is why do you not why should people not Google abortion and why is toxic positive a bad? Right, because, right, they will use and I guess, like, Keith Ranieri, from the vow, you know,

Anne Sherry 56:29
when I first started watching them the next what was the show on HBO that, like, I was like, I didn't really know what it was. And I was like, the first episode. I was like, that sounds pretty cool. That's just sounds great. That's what they're talking about. Then.

Alison Cebulla 56:42
wild country, wild, wild country where they did that one in Oregon. It's like, who doesn't want to live it out? They're all like sex communes to be honest. Yeah, free LOL, all those ones, the 80s 80s before they knew about AIDS,

Anne Sherry 56:56
I love you, man can be really fucking boring at times. And it's really a slog, like an emotion when you have, especially when I think well, any traumas that you have, but I do think it can be and then again, it mixes in with our structure like that you can't pull yourself out of it. Or if you don't have enough access, something's wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. That's the piece. I think that's important here that each person has, the way I see it. Now. Each person has like an equal exactly equal amount of divinity or whatever, or light divinity. Yes, but I don't know why I'm gonna cut you off though. Just because, okay, yeah, I was absorbing that very toxically positive message of which I, like, I'm going to make my case for why it's toxically positive. There's

Alison Cebulla 57:48
nothing wrong with you. Okay, I want I want to I want to I want to take I want to make a case. And I really absorbed it. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. You were born a hole you are Oh, yeah, no, listen.

Anne Sherry 58:01
No, no, I like, okay. No, I like how you like, I'm not gonna let you get away with just saying that phrase.

Alison Cebulla 58:06
I know. So like, so then when I finally got my diagnosis of major depressive disorder, and I read when I was 31 years old, and I realized that I had been normalizing Yes, set of thoughts and behaviors that were a symptom of a meant of an actual mental illness, but I thought it was normal. That I had to go there actually, is something fucking wrong here. Okay, does that mean that I'm a bad person? That's it that there is something wrong here. There is something wrong here. And I need to change it. Yes. So the whole thing of like, your whole, your whole was really, really bad for me. Really bad for me.

Anne Sherry 58:52
I get that. Yes. And so let me rephrase. Let me rephrase that because I'm not quite sure it's really a it's like a it's something that has shifted internally that has made it for me particularly feel I guess, more connected and braver to speak that I do not look at any one person and say I'm better than you right right. Now it's more of this kind of like I accept do what at let's let's keep you from committing suicide not you don't say committing suicide, that's a taking your life faking your life right or completing suicide, suicide. I mean, it's it's there's some epidemic shit going on here with people that just, you know, and they're like, oh, what they were weak or they didn't I don't know. Do not think you know anything about anybody just stand next to them with kindness. Right? Right. And just and also even that phrase, you know, there but for the grace of God, I don't even stop there. Do you know just Oh, because there's a pity message in that a little bit a little No. Yeah, like, Oh, God must have favored you grace of why did God have grace for you and not that person? Right, sort of what you're saying.

Alison Cebulla 1:00:09
I do love that idea of grace of God's grace. So even though I'm not a Christian, I love that idea of like, in our worst moments that there is still, but yeah, 100%

Anne Sherry 1:00:22
It is. I don't know, there's something has been very freeing about that. Because I don't know, it's really a felt sense. I mean, this shit to me, it feels like I don't know, just don't think anybody has the answers. You know, it's like, it really is, if you can a lot of the work that really feels like that we're do. It's the body centered, like we live in these bodies. And I think a lot of folks are like, they just sort of deny bodies on some level like,

Alison Cebulla 1:00:56
bodies. Definitely you

Anne Sherry 1:00:58
get if you get sick. It's your thoughts are making you sick or something. Yeah, I don't know. It's just you live in this body get curious about it, we need to make a lot more room. We have these narrow definitions to have what it is what a well, person is. We don't like to look at suffering. Oh, that climate piece that we were talking about? Right? That the one about climate and grief, what Connie's work, that actually tapping into enough of the suffering human suffering even makes it real, I think it's an it motivates you to actually engage in policy and be curious about why would why would this be acceptable? Like? Yeah, so I don't know if we got anywhere. Well, that's a big topic. People to seek healing, but I just want to also caution you that nobody's got nobody's got the one answer. They just don't.

Alison Cebulla 1:01:58
Right. Right. And so the reason we really wanted to tackle this topic more depth is because we kind of have been dancing around it in various episodes. And so we'll put a whole bunch of stuff in the show notes so that you can look at it more but check out because spirituality podcast, and I wanted to share my journey in into into the depths of toxic positivity. And part of my journey out maybe I could write a whole book about it, because it's there's a lot there. You know, I got deep in, I was like a public speaker on the topic. You know,

Anne Sherry 1:02:31
I was like, now here's where I'm grateful that whoever shut my voice down, shut it down. Because I like when to speak in public. I was like, I can barely introduce myself at a workshop without having a huge trauma response. So

Alison Cebulla 1:02:44
and now we've gotten to this point where we're like, are butthole ology.

Anne Sherry 1:02:50
That's it it all ties into bateau Allah.

Alison Cebulla 1:02:53
It all at the end of the day, we all fart we all shit. Yeah. I have offline moments

Anne Sherry 1:02:59
that were common. And yeah, so be kind, like even in this, this talks, the polarization canceling culture, whatever. Why can't we be curious about each person? After a meal? Everybody

Alison Cebulla 1:03:17
better question. I think the better question than just saying be kind is to be like, let's get curious about all of the barriers. Yeah, kindness, because that like as I don't want to shame people to just say, Well, why can't you just try harder and be kinder? And it's like, no, there's reasons. It's hard. There are reasons that it is hard. And that is the the place that young face of healing is getting curious about when I had that snap judgment about someone what wound was that bringing up? Oh, when I you know, was thinking in my head, like, I hate this person. Why? Watch? Right?

Anne Sherry 1:03:56
Yeah. I mean, there's these little phrases. You spot it, you got it, right? Oh, yeah. There's when you point your finger at somebody, there's three fingers pointing back at you. So it is turn inward. Again, and again, like Curiosity is your friend. You know, I have

Alison Cebulla 1:04:12
compassion for ourselves that we are going to be judgment and hateful and that's just a part of being a human.

Anne Sherry 1:04:19
Yours. Yeah. And it still comes up actually, for me just wrap on this a little bit like it also then becomes a nice growing up in environments where emotions aren't really accepted. We don't do them very well. They weren't I don't think anybody I never saw my parents cry. Literally. I never saw my parents cry. That's weird. That is weird. Oh, Buck, okay. So I didn't really have good modeling around ceiling but the more when I find this like critics and intensity and brittleness comes up. Now I have learned like there's an emotion that needs to be felt and I Here's what I sort of look for. I'm like, what? What's going on? Am I tired? am I sad? Did something I just slowed down? You know? And usually it's like, oh, yeah, I'm just sort of that a lot of shit.

Alison Cebulla 1:05:15
To end with a tool, feelings yeah.com feelings wheel.com You just pull up feelings wheel.com And you pick out a feeling and you go I was feeling insecure. I was feeling tired. I was feeling angry.

Anne Sherry 1:05:30
And if you can have someone this is where it gets really fucking edgy. Let somebody know and see if somebody can hold space for your feelings in witness you I know gusting but it helps I swear to you

Alison Cebulla 1:05:49
and gross would that leave it there

Well I've always started strange with people say when it rains it washes down. They got a different thing they say

Transcribed by https://otter.ai